6 ms·

Henry Kissinger is a war criminal. I wouldn't trust any of his advice on geopolitics, much less his opinions about AI. The only thing I take away from this ne

by cwkoss 5y ago

Henry Kissinger is a war criminal. I wouldn't trust any of his advice on geopolitics, much less his opinions about AI. The only thing I take away from this news is that Eric Schmidt has an even weaker moral compass than I previously thought.

lettergram 5y ago
“Who controls the food supply controls the people; who controls the energy can control whole continents; who controls money can control the world” — Henry Kissinger
- eplanit 5y ago
  Saying harsh but true things makes him a war criminal?
  - refulgentis 5y ago
    No
  - typeformer 5y ago
    No, masterminding the illegal bombing of two countries (Loas and Cambodia during the Vietnam/American War) with horrendous long term outcomes for the civilian population and also plotting coups and unconditional support for brutal dictatorships that kill their own citizens with impunity makes you one.
    - eplanit 5y ago
      Yes Vietnam was a shitshow -- but it was Nixon who was the chief executive who decided what to do. I have no love for Kissinger, but his job was giving advice (no matter how cold) on how to win the absurd war. My point is, of all the players in that saga, Kissinger seems to get a greater portion of disdain.
      - cwkoss 5y ago
        Kissinger gets more disdain because, unlike Nixon, much of the political establishment continues to treat him as a national hero.
  - ragona 5y ago
    His direct involvement in an atrocity-filled period of US foreign policy is what gets him called a war criminal, not his pithy quotes.
- panarky 5y ago
  I can't find evidence that he said this. Do you have a source?
  - eesmith 5y ago
    Nor can I. Publications either fail to reference their source, or give secondary references, or give incorrect references. For an example of the last, https://ccp.org.au/content/2-exhibitions/1-all/0-fertile-ground/fertile-ground_dr-jen-rae.pdf https://ccp.org.au/content/2-exhibitions/1-all/0-fertile-gro... cites "Kissinger, H., National Security Council. (1974). The Kissinger Report: NSSM-200 Implications of Worldwide Population Growth for U.S. Security Interests", but I could not find that quote in https://pdf.usaid.gov/pdf_docs/PCAAB500.pdf https://pdf.usaid.gov/pdf_docs/PCAAB500.pdf . I looked at that one because Google Scholar says that "Fertile Ground" document I linked to is from 1992. Internal evidence shows it's no older than 2019. The oldest actual mention in Google Scholar is from 2006 at http://www.libertydollar.org/news-stories/pdfs/1161050727.pdf http://www.libertydollar.org/news-stories/pdfs/1161050727.pd... , without attribution. Note that https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/global-research/ https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/global-research/ refers to the organization as 'a Canadian conspiracy website'. In 2007 there are a few more citations, like http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.532.8477&rep=rep1&type=pdf http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.532... . That in turn cites WikiQuote. WikiQuote currently has that quote in the Talk page under "None of these quotes should be reinstated in the article unless a source is found." I looked at the next few years of publications which use that quote. None give a primary reference or even provide a citation. This pattern strongly suggests that Kissinger did not say it. Clearly it must have been Lincoln or Churchill. /s
Finnucane 5y ago
At least when this book bombs, it won’t be a secret.
- tibbetts 5y ago
  Underrated comment.
mmmys 5y ago
It's just a matter of opinion. Actually, he is Nobel Peace Prize Laureate, as well as Obama. And, if he actually has some good insides, why not just consider these?
- cwkoss 5y ago
  Obama winning the Peace Prize while bombing people was the moment I realized Nobel Prizes are a joke. Politicized Orwellian doublespeak. It was given to him less than eight months after he became president, mostly based on his campaign rhetoric. Really just massively embarrassing for the Nobel committee in hindsight. The Nobel Secretary regrets that award. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34277960 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34277960
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
lowkey_ 5y ago
> I wouldn't trust any of his advice on geopolitics Numerous choices of his as Secretary of State were nearly indefensible, sure, but often as a product of his involvement and meticulous work in every foreign affairs matter, where everything had to be exact, and to fit into the grander strategy that he envisioned for the United States. As one small example: while H.W. Bush was able to show his goodness and his morality by fighting for Taiwan's role in his role as Ambassador to the UN, Kissinger's controversial pro-PRC stance, however much I despise the PRC government today and then, was what was necessary for the time. His administration's decision in using the rift that already existed between the PRC and the USSR to further pull them away from one another and open up diplomatic relations with the West instead is a major reason that China has become as powerful as it is today, which is an understandable cause of criticism. At the same time, we can't know what would've happened otherwise, but it's easy to imagine that the USSR could have kept up their Iron Curtain much longer, and the Cold War could've gone in a very different direction. We can look at other controversial decisions like Allende, the Yom Kippur War, and Vietnam in the same light. These are the hard decisions one grapples with as Secretary of State. Kissinger's own history as a Jewish immigrant who witnessed Nazism led to this rationalistic pessimism, and this idea that the best state we can hope for is teetering on the edge, slowly relieving tension a la detente, and that true utopia is unachievable. You can disagree with most of his decisions, but to not even consider his advice after all he's experienced seems unwise. Edit: Questionably cited Taiwan as democratic at the time — it was a military dictatorship as another commenter mentioned. H.W. Bush's decision of supporting the 'true' government of China was the moral, easily swallowed one, that was much more popular with the American public. Taiwan was heralded to the American people as a potential democratic alternative to the PRC, though it was not a democracy at the time, and so citing the decision as supporting democracy is questionable.
- whydoibother 5y ago
  Two regs, less than 30 min old, both trying to launder the bullshit Kissinger did. Odd. > hese are the hard decisions one grapples with as Secretary of State. SoS of an imperialist country. During a time of America's greatest atrocities. And during a time where no one could challenge US hegemony. There is no statecraft to be learned here. There is nothing to learn from him other than what a piece of shit he is.
iaw 5y ago
"Anything that flies on anything that moves" -Henry Kissingers policy for attacking the Vietnamese
bpodgursky 5y ago
That's kind of a weird argument. I can understand not buying the book, not wanting to reward him, but it seems like a pretty separate dimension from "trusting his advice". I have no reason to think alleged "war criminals" are more or less trustworthy than the average politician.
cmrdporcupine 5y ago
When Eric Schmidt was still active in leadership at Google he brought Kissinger in for internal fireside chats at least a couple times. It was entertaining to watch the internal memegen when this went down.
oh_sigh 5y ago
Is George Bush a war criminal too?

by cwkoss 5y ago

lettergram 5y ago

“Who controls the food supply controls the people; who controls the energy can control whole continents; who controls money can control the world” — Henry Kissinger

eplanit 5y ago
Saying harsh but true things makes him a war criminal?
- refulgentis 5y ago
  No
- typeformer 5y ago
  No, masterminding the illegal bombing of two countries (Loas and Cambodia during the Vietnam/American War) with horrendous long term outcomes for the civilian population and also plotting coups and unconditional support for brutal dictatorships that kill their own citizens with impunity makes you one.
  - eplanit 5y ago
    Yes Vietnam was a shitshow -- but it was Nixon who was the chief executive who decided what to do. I have no love for Kissinger, but his job was giving advice (no matter how cold) on how to win the absurd war. My point is, of all the players in that saga, Kissinger seems to get a greater portion of disdain.
    - cwkoss 5y ago
      Kissinger gets more disdain because, unlike Nixon, much of the political establishment continues to treat him as a national hero.
- ragona 5y ago
  His direct involvement in an atrocity-filled period of US foreign policy is what gets him called a war criminal, not his pithy quotes.
panarky 5y ago
I can't find evidence that he said this. Do you have a source?
- eesmith 5y ago
  Nor can I. Publications either fail to reference their source, or give secondary references, or give incorrect references. For an example of the last, https://ccp.org.au/content/2-exhibitions/1-all/0-fertile-ground/fertile-ground_dr-jen-rae.pdf https://ccp.org.au/content/2-exhibitions/1-all/0-fertile-gro... cites "Kissinger, H., National Security Council. (1974). The Kissinger Report: NSSM-200 Implications of Worldwide Population Growth for U.S. Security Interests", but I could not find that quote in https://pdf.usaid.gov/pdf_docs/PCAAB500.pdf https://pdf.usaid.gov/pdf_docs/PCAAB500.pdf . I looked at that one because Google Scholar says that "Fertile Ground" document I linked to is from 1992. Internal evidence shows it's no older than 2019. The oldest actual mention in Google Scholar is from 2006 at http://www.libertydollar.org/news-stories/pdfs/1161050727.pdf http://www.libertydollar.org/news-stories/pdfs/1161050727.pd... , without attribution. Note that https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/global-research/ https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/global-research/ refers to the organization as 'a Canadian conspiracy website'. In 2007 there are a few more citations, like http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.532.8477&rep=rep1&type=pdf http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.532... . That in turn cites WikiQuote. WikiQuote currently has that quote in the Talk page under "None of these quotes should be reinstated in the article unless a source is found." I looked at the next few years of publications which use that quote. None give a primary reference or even provide a citation. This pattern strongly suggests that Kissinger did not say it. Clearly it must have been Lincoln or Churchill. /s

Finnucane 5y ago

At least when this book bombs, it won’t be a secret.

tibbetts 5y ago
Underrated comment.

mmmys 5y ago

It's just a matter of opinion. Actually, he is Nobel Peace Prize Laureate, as well as Obama. And, if he actually has some good insides, why not just consider these?

cwkoss 5y ago
Obama winning the Peace Prize while bombing people was the moment I realized Nobel Prizes are a joke. Politicized Orwellian doublespeak. It was given to him less than eight months after he became president, mostly based on his campaign rhetoric. Really just massively embarrassing for the Nobel committee in hindsight. The Nobel Secretary regrets that award. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34277960 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34277960
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

lowkey_ 5y ago

> I wouldn't trust any of his advice on geopolitics Numerous choices of his as Secretary of State were nearly indefensible, sure, but often as a product of his involvement and meticulous work in every foreign affairs matter, where everything had to be exact, and to fit into the grander strategy that he envisioned for the United States. As one small example: while H.W. Bush was able to show his goodness and his morality by fighting for Taiwan's role in his role as Ambassador to the UN, Kissinger's controversial pro-PRC stance, however much I despise the PRC government today and then, was what was necessary for the time. His administration's decision in using the rift that already existed between the PRC and the USSR to further pull them away from one another and open up diplomatic relations with the West instead is a major reason that China has become as powerful as it is today, which is an understandable cause of criticism. At the same time, we can't know what would've happened otherwise, but it's easy to imagine that the USSR could have kept up their Iron Curtain much longer, and the Cold War could've gone in a very different direction. We can look at other controversial decisions like Allende, the Yom Kippur War, and Vietnam in the same light. These are the hard decisions one grapples with as Secretary of State. Kissinger's own history as a Jewish immigrant who witnessed Nazism led to this rationalistic pessimism, and this idea that the best state we can hope for is teetering on the edge, slowly relieving tension a la detente, and that true utopia is unachievable. You can disagree with most of his decisions, but to not even consider his advice after all he's experienced seems unwise. Edit: Questionably cited Taiwan as democratic at the time — it was a military dictatorship as another commenter mentioned. H.W. Bush's decision of supporting the 'true' government of China was the moral, easily swallowed one, that was much more popular with the American public. Taiwan was heralded to the American people as a potential democratic alternative to the PRC, though it was not a democracy at the time, and so citing the decision as supporting democracy is questionable.

whydoibother 5y ago
Two regs, less than 30 min old, both trying to launder the bullshit Kissinger did. Odd. > hese are the hard decisions one grapples with as Secretary of State. SoS of an imperialist country. During a time of America's greatest atrocities. And during a time where no one could challenge US hegemony. There is no statecraft to be learned here. There is nothing to learn from him other than what a piece of shit he is.

iaw 5y ago

"Anything that flies on anything that moves" -Henry Kissingers policy for attacking the Vietnamese

bpodgursky 5y ago

That's kind of a weird argument. I can understand not buying the book, not wanting to reward him, but it seems like a pretty separate dimension from "trusting his advice". I have no reason to think alleged "war criminals" are more or less trustworthy than the average politician.

cmrdporcupine 5y ago

When Eric Schmidt was still active in leadership at Google he brought Kissinger in for internal fireside chats at least a couple times. It was entertaining to watch the internal memegen when this went down.

oh_sigh 5y ago

Is George Bush a war criminal too?