14 ms·

Masks Are Back, Maybe for the Long Term

58 points by NotSwift 5y ago

king_magic 5y ago
It's the only responsible path forward when so much of the US population is so deeply dedicated to being irresponsible. The intentionally unvaccinated brought this on themselves (outside of legitimate medical reasons remain unvaccinated, which are very, very limited). Edit: This is clearly an unpopular view, which is sad for a community that seems to like science so much. Edit x2: Yikes. It's shocking to see the lack of reason and science on HN these days. Edit x3: What a bizarre world we're living in. Truly depressing to see this kind of anti-science insanity in this community. It's disgusting. Done wasting my time here with this kind of userbase. Edit x4: primarily for the mods - and frankly - if you want to ban me, go right ahead. You are allowing an unscientific cancer to spread through HN. You should be ashamed.
- jjgreen 5y ago
  From TFA: The guidelines for the unvaccinated (that is, keep masking) haven’t changed, while the immunized are once again being called upon to act. “Asking people to mask up again is triggering a lot of emotional stuff,” Lindsey Leininger, a public-health-policy expert at Dartmouth, told me. “You can’t tell people that those feelings are invalid.”
  - king_magic 5y ago
    I'm not sure what point you're going for here, but at the end of the day, when the Delta variant results in 1000x the viral load in the nose/mouth for both unvaccinated and vaccinated folks, the only responsible solution is for everyone to mask. Had we not ended up in a situation where we're nowhere close to herd immunity because of the anti-vax sentiment through so much of the US population, the Delta variant might never have taken hold like it has. So I stand by my original statement.
    - yehosef 5y ago
      > when the Delta variant results in 1000x the viral load in the nose/mouth can you provide a reference for this?
      - king_magic 5y ago
        Plenty of info on this circulating on news sites. https://www.google.com/search?q=delta+1000x+viral+load https://www.google.com/search?q=delta+1000x+viral+load
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
    - enchiridion 5y ago
      The Delta variant came out of India, so the US course of action is of little concern here. Also, from the very beginning it has been stated that, like almost all respiratory illnesses, covid will become more contagious and less severe over time. Now that it has happened, everyone is pointing fingers.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - ranma4703 5y ago
    The feelings are valid - all feelings are valid. The reactions to those feelings ARE harmful to children, disabled people, and (yes) the unvaccinated. Even if you don't care about the last group, the first two groups don't deserve to get long COVID, or die, because you had a hard feel about having to wear something over your mouth.
    - nemo44x 5y ago
      Covid will be here for years, if not forever. So at this point you might as well just admit that we will have to wear masks forever with this argument. The pandemic is over for people that got vaccinated. For those that can't, they should evaluate their risks and act accordingly.
      - ranma4703 5y ago
        It isn't over though. People want it to be over, people are acting like it's over, and cases are rising rapidly. Wanting something to be true doesn't make it true.
        nemo44x 5y ago
        Get a jab, then it’s over for you. People have had plenty of time to get one. Everyone at Obama’s party agrees.
    - mixmastamyk 5y ago
      Children don't suffer from it, statistically. That's why the vaccines were not tested on them earlier.
      - ranma4703 5y ago
        No, they do, we just decided to ignore that they do so parents could send their kids back to school https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/08/health/long-covid-kids.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/08/health/long-covid-kids.ht...
- umvi 5y ago
  So why can't we vaccinated let them reap the consequences of their irresponsible actions? Why are we obligated to protect people from their own conscious decisions? In a world where vaccines are widely available, there is little value in forcing the vaccinated to collectively protect people from their decisions to remain unvaccinated. If anything, it just sows more social discord and ill will in the population that is doing the most good from a public health perspective. If some parent doesn't want their kids to get chicken pox vaccination and their kid gets chicken pox and dies, so be it. They made their choice, I made mine to vaccinate my kids against varicella.
  - king_magic 5y ago
    As I've said in another comment, the science is demonstrating that the vaccinated can spread Covid just as easily (though likely for a much shorter duration) than the unvaccinated. And the vaccinated can still (rarely) get severely sick. So it's still a danger to everyone. Given that reality, the only responsible choice is for everyone to suck it up and wear a mask. Now had the unvaccinated in the US bothered to get vaccinated, the Delta variant might never have taken hold.
    - frockington1 5y ago
      As a vaccinated person, I don't care if the unvaccinated get Covid. They made a choice, let them deal with the repercussions
      - king_magic 5y ago
        You should, because you can still get Covid from one of those unvaccinated people - and you might die from it, or spread it to someone else who might die from it.
        morsch 5y ago
        What is the risk of serious illness (and/or death) from delta covid after double vaccination? Too soon to tell?
- AndrewBissell 5y ago
  If the vaccines are so fantastic at preventing hospitalizations and deaths, and they've been taken up by the vast majority of the elderly who are most at risk, then why are we still trying to slow the spread of an endemic respiratory virus?
  - graywh 5y ago
    the unvaccinated are filling up hospitals -- would it be ethical to kick out an unvaccinated covid patient and give priority to vaccinated patients (regardless of illness of injury)? some people cannot get vaccinated
    - core-utility 5y ago
      Do you have a source for your information? Many hospitals are reporting very low ICU numbers, nowhere near capacity.
      - jollybean 5y ago
        In the South in particular [1] things are picking up in bad way, and some healthcare systems are once again being burdened. [1] https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/01/health/us-coronavirus-sunday/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/01/health/us-coronavirus-sunday/...
    - generj 5y ago
      Honestly at this stage if people had the opportunity to be vaccinated and didn’t I’m OK prioritizing care for those who chose to be vaccinated and are sick with non-preventable illnesses. Triage has lots of ethical questions, this doesn’t seem to be among the most controversial to me. There are patients haranguing doctors for daring to tell them they are dying of COVID. We are exhausting our medical system to care for the uncaring.
    - stickfigure 5y ago
      If you're polling, I'll go out on a limb and say yes. Obviously triage is more complicated than that, and acuity is always going to be the dominant factor. But if you have limited resources and have to make hard choices about who gets treatment, I don't see why vaccination status shouldn't be considered.
system16 5y ago
I still fail to see why people are so vehemently opposed to masks. Yes, they are annoying but is it really that big of a deal? And it's usually not staff that are required to wear them for extended periods that get so upset about them - it's people that have to put one on for a few minutes while shopping. Of all things to be upset about, why is this the hill so many people are determined to die on?
- atoav 5y ago
  In cold winters I used to wear a scarf around my mouth while running, which was magnitudes more restricting to breathing than any mask. I guess most people who complain do it "out of principle" because they want to see themselves as the type of person who cannot be forced to do anything by authorities. Weirdly other believes are really authotarian. Are you really free when you don't use your own head but reflexively do/don't do something just because you like/dislike the person which says it?
  - pandaman 5y ago
    >Are you really free when you don't use your own head but reflexively do/don't do something just because you like/dislike the person which says it? Not quite sure what is the point you are trying to make. If you ask somebody why they don't want to do something for you and one replies "Fuck you, that's why!" do you imply that this person is not free because he or she denied your request based on personal animosity and not "using own head"? Or is it something else you wanted to say?
    - atoav 5y ago
      The question I ask is simple: If you always do the opposite of what your enemy says you should do, are you more free or less free than someone who decides on their own merits what they wanna do or not? That is a valid question in this day and age, with a death toll attached.
      - pandaman 5y ago
nathanaldensr 5y ago
Masks are back for whom?
- eplanit 5y ago
  The little, unsophisticated people: https://politicofire.com/2021/08/09/cnn-guest-suggests-obamas-birthday-party-justified-in-spite-of-covid-because-attendees-were-sophisticated-and-vaccinated/ https://politicofire.com/2021/08/09/cnn-guest-suggests-obama...
  - TheHypnotist 5y ago
    Vaccinated is the key part of the title.
    - another_kel 5y ago
      WHO disagrees https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/25/delta-who-urges-fully-vaccinated-people-to-continue-to-wear-masks-as-variant-spreads.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/25/delta-who-urges-fully-vaccin...
      - TheHypnotist 5y ago
        That's not for the wearer's benefit, in this case, the wearer being the vaccinated. The article even states that. This is to stop community transmission for those who remain unvaccinated. I don't like that as much as the next person, but if I'm visiting a hospital or a nursing home anytime soon, i'll mask up.
    - belorn 5y ago
      At least one of those vaccines are reportedly around 80% effective, so if you got 100 vaccinated people in the party then its about as bad as 20 unvaccinated people partying. If a celebrity many different people per week, 20% vulnerability is still a lot. Its better than no protection, but still put the person at a pretty high risk.
trentnix 5y ago
No. I refuse. I'm vaccinated. I social distance. I have good personal hygiene. I've made efforts to mitigate the risks to my family and others we might encounter. I respect your right to decide for yourself. I respect a brick-and-mortar business deciding it would only prefer to serve people who wear masks. I respect a workplace defining whether its employees should wear a mask (while providing reasonable accommodations to those would prefer otherwise). But I have genuine doubts about the efficacy of the masks that are widely sold, used, and accepted. When I see selective enforcement and selective outrage, it's hard not to see so many of our government leaders as blatant hypocrites. When I see absolutely no sense of humility from our policy makers on what they actually know and don't know, it's hard not to completely lose trust in their leadership. And then, when so many peer appeals to mask or vaccinate don't come from a place of genuine concern or care but of a "you are irresponsible and brought this on yourself" or "you deserve to be punished", it's as if many are desperate to confirm the worst stereotypes that they are just authoritarian nannies. And as a result of all that, it's difficult not to have an impulsive response of 'mind your own business'. I'm open to data. I'm open to discussion. But those who only bring condescension can go **** themselves.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- goldenkey 5y ago
  Vaccines drive the evolution of more virulent covid strains. Vaccinated people infected with delta have measurable viral loads similar to those who are unvaccinated and infected with the variant. They don't get as sick but spread the virus nearly as well as unvaccinated folks. The spreading rate is correlated with the mutation rate. A good mask, N95 or above, can prevent covid transmission and contraction. Cloth and surgical masks on the other hand are like trying to stop mosquitos with a chain link fence. People that have the vaccine and walk around indoor spaces without a mask are actually causing their own eventual demise, as they will be giving the virus hosts (themselves included), allowing the virus to mutate to its next more virulent form that vaccines have no chance against. I know it's painful to wear a good mask as you cannot show off your pretty face. Do it for your country, for Biden and for our hero Fauci. :-)
adolph 5y ago
Primarily links to other media. 8/28 links go to science/medicine sites. 4/28 to government. 1 www.whitehouse.gov 3 covid.cdc.gov 2 www.nytimes.com 13 www.theatlantic.com 1 twitter.com 1 jamanetwork.com 1 spiral.imperial.ac.uk 1 www.doherty.edu.au 1 www.medrxiv.org 2 www.nejm.org 1 www.thelancet.com 1 www.yalemedicine.org since the start of 2021 https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#trends_dailytrendscases https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#trends_dailytrends... nearly every state https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/us/covid-cases.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/us/covid-cases.html struggling to get more shots into arms https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2021/07/unvaccinated-different-anti-vax/619523/ https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2021/07/unvaccina... once again mask in public indoor spaces https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2021/07/cdc-coronavirus-masks-vaccines-indoors/619592/ https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2021/07/cdc-coron... in places where the virus is surging https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2021/07/delta-transmission-vaccines/619615/ https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2021/07/delta-tra... controversially dispensed with in May https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/05/cdc-guidelines-masks-vaccinated-indoors/618883/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/05/cdc-guidel... a scientifically powerful pairing https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2021/07/cdc-coronavirus-masks-vaccines-indoors/619592/ https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2021/07/cdc-coron... Nearly 60 percent https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#vaccinations https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#vaccinations holding their own https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2021/07/anatomy-of-a-vaccine-breakthrough/619562/ https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2021/07/anatomy-... all known forms https://www.yalemedicine.org/news/covid-19-vaccine-comparison https://www.yalemedicine.org/news/covid-19-vaccine-compariso... contract the pathogen https://spiral.imperial.ac.uk/bitstream/10044/1/90800/2/react1_r13_final_preprint_final.pdf https://spiral.imperial.ac.uk/bitstream/10044/1/90800/2/reac... pass it on https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.28.21261295v1 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.28.21261295v... come down with disease https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2108891 https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2108891 the wiliest version of the virus to date https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2021/06/coronavirus-evolution-virulence/619301/ https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2021/06/coronavi... might also be likelier to land people in the hospital https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(21)01358-1/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6... set vaccinated immune systems up for success https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2021/07/cdc-coronavirus-masks-vaccines-indoors/619592/ https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2021/07/cdc-coron... protect vulnerable people in the vicinity https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2021/07/fully-vaccinated-masking-delta/619532/ https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2021/07/fully-vac... the government said they could https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/speeches-remarks/2021/05/13/remarks-by-president-biden-on-the-covid-19-response-and-the-vaccination-program-3/ https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/speeches-remarks/20... as the CDC stipulates https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#county-view https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#county-view even 90s https://twitter.com/AdamJKucharski/status/1415587170941874178 https://twitter.com/AdamJKucharski/status/141558717094187417... a bit of a hit https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2108891 https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2108891 a nasal spray https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/14/health/coronavirus-nasal-vaccines.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/14/health/coronavirus-nasal-... Recent modeling work https://www.doherty.edu.au/news-events/news/doherty-institute-modelling-report-for-national-cabinet https://www.doherty.edu.au/news-events/news/doherty-institut... backs this logic up https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2780539 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle... might slip on socially or seasonally https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2021/05/mask-mandates-will-come-and-go-and-come-again/619038/ https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2021/05/mask-mand... boosters https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2021/06/covid-19-vaccine-booster-shots-probably-inevitable/619272/ https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2021/06/covid-19... other airway viruses as well https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2021/02/covid-19-flu-season/617924/ https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2021/02/covid-19... long been commonplace elsewhere https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/04/america-asia-face-mask-coronavirus/609283/ https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/04/america...
foxyv 5y ago
It's a shame, because masks are so much less effective than vaccination. Last I saw, vaccination was 70% effective against the Delta variant. Masks reduce transmission by a paltry 10-20% or something even less. If we could just get everyone vaccinated it would make R much less than 1.0. But getting anti-vaxxers to wear a mask when vaccinated people don't have to is going to be impossible... As it is, with vaccination rates so low, I expect COVID is going to be forever. I don't mind wearing a mask to protect unvaccinated people and help out our medical professionals keep numbers down. But, it's going to be rough. I was so happy, I thought we were done.
- morsch 5y ago
  If we could just get everyone vaccinated it would make R much less than 1.0. I'm curious if we know this for a fact. We started out with attainable numbers for herd immunity (which I think is pretty much equivalent to R<1). But that was based on an apparent overestimation of the sterilizing immunity of the vaccines. The alternative appears to be an endemic virus with occasional booster vaccinations for certain populations.
  - foxyv 5y ago
    We require about 80% vaccination or recovered from COVID to achieve herd immunity. Right now we have 50% vaccinated and 10% confirmed cases. The more infectious Delta variant has skewed it more towards a 90-95% requirement. This means that before we reach herd immunity we need to either vaccinate or infect an additional 20% of the population at least. I think a big factor was July 4th. Summer vacation kept cases low until now. Then the big family gatherings really ramped things up. Now we're going back to school soon. Vaccination reduces transmission but not 100%. Notice I said 70-80% and not 100%. I don't think anyone expected it to be 100% effective at preventing breakthrough infections. I'm hoping we don't have to eat that additional 20% with regular infection. Delta is NASTY.
    - morsch 5y ago
      I mean, if the numbers are right (they match what I'm reading here in Europe), I suppose we're lucky, because it's totally possible that given a slightly more contagious virus or a slightly higher rate of vaccine breakthrough that even at 100% vaccination/infection rate there is no herd immunity. On the other hand, if immunity decreases over time, we might need something like 90-95% vaccinated or infected during the past 3 months (just as an example). I'm not sure that we know where along those dimensions we are.
armchairhacker 5y ago
I’m all for masks, it’s a minor inconvenience. What i’m worried about is social distancing. Online school. Making it harder to meet people. Cancelling and postponing events. Even large gatherings of vaxxed individuals. And honestly, needing to wear masks at said gatherings. Correct me if i’m wrong, but the chance of a large vaxxed party causing someone serious illness or significantly spreading the virus to the unvaxxed is still very low. From what i’ve heard, Delta does infect vaccinated people but it’s usually mild. Moreover, if you ban these sorts of events you’re probably banning them long-term. Humans are social creatures, and it’s one thing to minimize social interaction for a year to save lives, it’s another to minimize for years (someone’s entire adolescence), especially when you’re not saving many lives anyways. Honestly, i’m an introverted person, i don’t even like crowded parties. But i feel for people who do. Moreover, if schools / colleges stay online or even hybrid it’s going to hurt students’ education and social development. If jobs are online and vacations are cancelled it’s going to make finding and maintaining friends as an adult harder, and afaik that’s already hard. Some things really are better virtual (e.g. virtual meetings), but some are effectively useless. It looks like right now this isn’t an issue, since i see events like lollapalooza and cruises which require proof of vaccination. And schools are starting in-person (although i’m worried for those under 12, the FDA should really approve the vaccine asap). But yeah, masks aren’t much of an issue, this is much more concerning.
AnonHP 5y ago
off topic: This post seems like an inappropriate one for HN. Scanning through the comments here, it seems like some kind of downvote brigading is happening on this thread. Comments, replies to comments and their replies are all being downvoted. Edit: I’ve now flagged it.
- Thiez 5y ago
  It's a very controversial topic, and downvoting to indicate disagreement is allowed. Seeing so many downvotes under these circumstances is not that surprising, is it?
  - justwanttolearn 5y ago
    I was under the perception (new to HN) that downvotes are for when someone's comment does not add value to the conversation (eg. memes and name calling). Downvoting something you disagree is dangerous because it'll feed those that truly believe that to believe it even more (being silenced). Instead of downvoting we need to dedicate time to reason through why x is misinformation and walk through how you get to your conclusion. Sure not everyone has the time for that but also because no one is willing to dedicate time for that, we have this quick easy divisions with no explanation.
    - Thiez 5y ago
      Your perception is incorrect. You are certainly not alone in wanting downvotes to be different, but the current policy is that downvotes for disagreement are allowed.
      - justwanttolearn 5y ago
        I see, thank you for clarifying. That's kind of unfortunate because I feel that just because everyone feels one way doesn't mean that it is the truth. Sometimes when I don't have an opinion yet on a certain controversial topic and I go to a forum with no upvote/downvote system (very rare it exists), it lets me start with a un-biased ground and read critically into each person's pov.
apatil 5y ago
I think it's time to seriously think about putting the same amount of effort into non-pharmaceutical intervention (NPI) development as we put into the vaccines. As inspiration, note that parts of the US are have environments that can support malaria; malaria can spread very aggressively when conditions are favorable [1]; and that malaria used to be a major public health threat in the US. It is not anymore, despite the fact that there is no vaccine, because of NPI's. It was initially beaten back using NPI's and has been controlled using NPI's ever since [2]. What if we had an affordable, comfortable mask that worked so well that you have no practical chance of contracting an airborne virus while wearing it? I get that current N95 and surgical masks are not that, but I don't see why it would be impossible to create one within the physical laws of the universe, especially if you put power and air supplies on the table. Scuba gear and air-supplied biohazard suits seem to be existence proofs, the question is whether they can be made practical. If everyone had such a mask, we would have a new strategy available for controlling delta and any other variant that emerges in the future: everyone could mask up full-time when outside the house _for a limited amount of time_ until transmission drops to a low level. From that point, local outbreaks could be controlled by local bouts of masking, plus aggressive testing and contact tracing. I get that anti-masking would be an obstacle, but part of the difficulty has been messaging risk and uncertainty to people who start from a skeptical place. A mask that _positively_ protects the wearer, and that can remove the need for restrictions within a finite, predictable time, would be an easier sell, especially after the strategy is seen to work once or twice. 1: https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.0050042 https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/jou... 2: https://www.cdc.gov/malaria/about/history/elimination_us.html https://www.cdc.gov/malaria/about/history/elimination_us.htm...
- umvi 5y ago
  An interesting idea but this is a massive PR battle you'd have to win. At least 50% of the poplulation will scream at the idea of mandatory government-issued masks (even if they were billed as "super masks that protect you from all harm"). I suspect if you put it to a vote right now, more than 50% of the population would agree with the following phrase: "I feel that being vaccinated is good enough criteria to stop wearing a mask or social distance" The problem is that the goalposts keep shifting with this pandemic. Biden said earlier that if you got vaccinated you wouldn't need a mask any more. That was true for maybe 1 month here in Maryland. Goalposts have since shifted. What is the endgame? Nobody seems to know. It's just a nebulous incoherent mixture of random arguments involving protecting the unvaccinated, preventing hospitals from being overwhelmed, protecting children and immunocompromised, preventing covid from mutating, etc. Heavy handed public health policies aren't free. You might accomplish some public health goal, but at the cost of increased social discord, decreased citizen morale, increased mistrust of the government, increased illwill toward the government, or other factors which could have far worse long term consequences.

58 points by NotSwift 5y ago

It's the only responsible path forward when so much of the US population is so deeply dedicated to being irresponsible. The intentionally unvaccinated brought this on themselves (outside of legitimate medical reasons remain unvaccinated, which are very, very limited). Edit: This is clearly an unpopular view, which is sad for a community that seems to like science so much. Edit x2: Yikes. It's shocking to see the lack of reason and science on HN these days. Edit x3: What a bizarre world we're living in. Truly depressing to see this kind of anti-science insanity in this community. It's disgusting. Done wasting my time here with this kind of userbase. Edit x4: primarily for the mods - and frankly - if you want to ban me, go right ahead. You are allowing an unscientific cancer to spread through HN. You should be ashamed.

jjgreen 5y ago
From TFA: The guidelines for the unvaccinated (that is, keep masking) haven’t changed, while the immunized are once again being called upon to act. “Asking people to mask up again is triggering a lot of emotional stuff,” Lindsey Leininger, a public-health-policy expert at Dartmouth, told me. “You can’t tell people that those feelings are invalid.”
- king_magic 5y ago
  I'm not sure what point you're going for here, but at the end of the day, when the Delta variant results in 1000x the viral load in the nose/mouth for both unvaccinated and vaccinated folks, the only responsible solution is for everyone to mask. Had we not ended up in a situation where we're nowhere close to herd immunity because of the anti-vax sentiment through so much of the US population, the Delta variant might never have taken hold like it has. So I stand by my original statement.
  - yehosef 5y ago
    > when the Delta variant results in 1000x the viral load in the nose/mouth can you provide a reference for this?
    - king_magic 5y ago
      Plenty of info on this circulating on news sites. https://www.google.com/search?q=delta+1000x+viral+load https://www.google.com/search?q=delta+1000x+viral+load
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - enchiridion 5y ago
    The Delta variant came out of India, so the US course of action is of little concern here. Also, from the very beginning it has been stated that, like almost all respiratory illnesses, covid will become more contagious and less severe over time. Now that it has happened, everyone is pointing fingers.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- ranma4703 5y ago
  The feelings are valid - all feelings are valid. The reactions to those feelings ARE harmful to children, disabled people, and (yes) the unvaccinated. Even if you don't care about the last group, the first two groups don't deserve to get long COVID, or die, because you had a hard feel about having to wear something over your mouth.
  - nemo44x 5y ago
    Covid will be here for years, if not forever. So at this point you might as well just admit that we will have to wear masks forever with this argument. The pandemic is over for people that got vaccinated. For those that can't, they should evaluate their risks and act accordingly.
    - ranma4703 5y ago
      It isn't over though. People want it to be over, people are acting like it's over, and cases are rising rapidly. Wanting something to be true doesn't make it true.
      - nemo44x 5y ago
        Get a jab, then it’s over for you. People have had plenty of time to get one. Everyone at Obama’s party agrees.
  - mixmastamyk 5y ago
    Children don't suffer from it, statistically. That's why the vaccines were not tested on them earlier.
    - ranma4703 5y ago
      No, they do, we just decided to ignore that they do so parents could send their kids back to school https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/08/health/long-covid-kids.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/08/health/long-covid-kids.ht...
umvi 5y ago
So why can't we vaccinated let them reap the consequences of their irresponsible actions? Why are we obligated to protect people from their own conscious decisions? In a world where vaccines are widely available, there is little value in forcing the vaccinated to collectively protect people from their decisions to remain unvaccinated. If anything, it just sows more social discord and ill will in the population that is doing the most good from a public health perspective. If some parent doesn't want their kids to get chicken pox vaccination and their kid gets chicken pox and dies, so be it. They made their choice, I made mine to vaccinate my kids against varicella.
- king_magic 5y ago
  As I've said in another comment, the science is demonstrating that the vaccinated can spread Covid just as easily (though likely for a much shorter duration) than the unvaccinated. And the vaccinated can still (rarely) get severely sick. So it's still a danger to everyone. Given that reality, the only responsible choice is for everyone to suck it up and wear a mask. Now had the unvaccinated in the US bothered to get vaccinated, the Delta variant might never have taken hold.
  - frockington1 5y ago
    As a vaccinated person, I don't care if the unvaccinated get Covid. They made a choice, let them deal with the repercussions
    - king_magic 5y ago
      You should, because you can still get Covid from one of those unvaccinated people - and you might die from it, or spread it to someone else who might die from it.
      - morsch 5y ago
        What is the risk of serious illness (and/or death) from delta covid after double vaccination? Too soon to tell?
AndrewBissell 5y ago
If the vaccines are so fantastic at preventing hospitalizations and deaths, and they've been taken up by the vast majority of the elderly who are most at risk, then why are we still trying to slow the spread of an endemic respiratory virus?
- graywh 5y ago
  the unvaccinated are filling up hospitals -- would it be ethical to kick out an unvaccinated covid patient and give priority to vaccinated patients (regardless of illness of injury)? some people cannot get vaccinated
  - core-utility 5y ago
    Do you have a source for your information? Many hospitals are reporting very low ICU numbers, nowhere near capacity.
    - jollybean 5y ago
      In the South in particular [1] things are picking up in bad way, and some healthcare systems are once again being burdened. [1] https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/01/health/us-coronavirus-sunday/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/01/health/us-coronavirus-sunday/...
  - generj 5y ago
    Honestly at this stage if people had the opportunity to be vaccinated and didn’t I’m OK prioritizing care for those who chose to be vaccinated and are sick with non-preventable illnesses. Triage has lots of ethical questions, this doesn’t seem to be among the most controversial to me. There are patients haranguing doctors for daring to tell them they are dying of COVID. We are exhausting our medical system to care for the uncaring.
  - stickfigure 5y ago
    If you're polling, I'll go out on a limb and say yes. Obviously triage is more complicated than that, and acuity is always going to be the dominant factor. But if you have limited resources and have to make hard choices about who gets treatment, I don't see why vaccination status shouldn't be considered.

system16 5y ago

I still fail to see why people are so vehemently opposed to masks. Yes, they are annoying but is it really that big of a deal? And it's usually not staff that are required to wear them for extended periods that get so upset about them - it's people that have to put one on for a few minutes while shopping. Of all things to be upset about, why is this the hill so many people are determined to die on?

atoav 5y ago
In cold winters I used to wear a scarf around my mouth while running, which was magnitudes more restricting to breathing than any mask. I guess most people who complain do it "out of principle" because they want to see themselves as the type of person who cannot be forced to do anything by authorities. Weirdly other believes are really authotarian. Are you really free when you don't use your own head but reflexively do/don't do something just because you like/dislike the person which says it?
- pandaman 5y ago
  >Are you really free when you don't use your own head but reflexively do/don't do something just because you like/dislike the person which says it? Not quite sure what is the point you are trying to make. If you ask somebody why they don't want to do something for you and one replies "Fuck you, that's why!" do you imply that this person is not free because he or she denied your request based on personal animosity and not "using own head"? Or is it something else you wanted to say?
  - atoav 5y ago
    The question I ask is simple: If you always do the opposite of what your enemy says you should do, are you more free or less free than someone who decides on their own merits what they wanna do or not? That is a valid question in this day and age, with a death toll attached.
    - pandaman 5y ago

nathanaldensr 5y ago

Masks are back for whom?

eplanit 5y ago
The little, unsophisticated people: https://politicofire.com/2021/08/09/cnn-guest-suggests-obamas-birthday-party-justified-in-spite-of-covid-because-attendees-were-sophisticated-and-vaccinated/ https://politicofire.com/2021/08/09/cnn-guest-suggests-obama...
- TheHypnotist 5y ago
  Vaccinated is the key part of the title.
  - another_kel 5y ago
    WHO disagrees https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/25/delta-who-urges-fully-vaccinated-people-to-continue-to-wear-masks-as-variant-spreads.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/25/delta-who-urges-fully-vaccin...
    - TheHypnotist 5y ago
      That's not for the wearer's benefit, in this case, the wearer being the vaccinated. The article even states that. This is to stop community transmission for those who remain unvaccinated. I don't like that as much as the next person, but if I'm visiting a hospital or a nursing home anytime soon, i'll mask up.
  - belorn 5y ago
    At least one of those vaccines are reportedly around 80% effective, so if you got 100 vaccinated people in the party then its about as bad as 20 unvaccinated people partying. If a celebrity many different people per week, 20% vulnerability is still a lot. Its better than no protection, but still put the person at a pretty high risk.

trentnix 5y ago

No. I refuse. I'm vaccinated. I social distance. I have good personal hygiene. I've made efforts to mitigate the risks to my family and others we might encounter. I respect your right to decide for yourself. I respect a brick-and-mortar business deciding it would only prefer to serve people who wear masks. I respect a workplace defining whether its employees should wear a mask (while providing reasonable accommodations to those would prefer otherwise). But I have genuine doubts about the efficacy of the masks that are widely sold, used, and accepted. When I see selective enforcement and selective outrage, it's hard not to see so many of our government leaders as blatant hypocrites. When I see absolutely no sense of humility from our policy makers on what they actually know and don't know, it's hard not to completely lose trust in their leadership. And then, when so many peer appeals to mask or vaccinate don't come from a place of genuine concern or care but of a "you are irresponsible and brought this on yourself" or "you deserve to be punished", it's as if many are desperate to confirm the worst stereotypes that they are just authoritarian nannies. And as a result of all that, it's difficult not to have an impulsive response of 'mind your own business'. I'm open to data. I'm open to discussion. But those who only bring condescension can go **** themselves.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
goldenkey 5y ago
Vaccines drive the evolution of more virulent covid strains. Vaccinated people infected with delta have measurable viral loads similar to those who are unvaccinated and infected with the variant. They don't get as sick but spread the virus nearly as well as unvaccinated folks. The spreading rate is correlated with the mutation rate. A good mask, N95 or above, can prevent covid transmission and contraction. Cloth and surgical masks on the other hand are like trying to stop mosquitos with a chain link fence. People that have the vaccine and walk around indoor spaces without a mask are actually causing their own eventual demise, as they will be giving the virus hosts (themselves included), allowing the virus to mutate to its next more virulent form that vaccines have no chance against. I know it's painful to wear a good mask as you cannot show off your pretty face. Do it for your country, for Biden and for our hero Fauci. :-)

adolph 5y ago

Primarily links to other media. 8/28 links go to science/medicine sites. 4/28 to government. 1 www.whitehouse.gov 3 covid.cdc.gov 2 www.nytimes.com 13 www.theatlantic.com 1 twitter.com 1 jamanetwork.com 1 spiral.imperial.ac.uk 1 www.doherty.edu.au 1 www.medrxiv.org 2 www.nejm.org 1 www.thelancet.com 1 www.yalemedicine.org since the start of 2021 https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#trends_dailytrendscases https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#trends_dailytrends... nearly every state https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/us/covid-cases.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/us/covid-cases.html struggling to get more shots into arms https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2021/07/unvaccinated-different-anti-vax/619523/ https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2021/07/unvaccina... once again mask in public indoor spaces https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2021/07/cdc-coronavirus-masks-vaccines-indoors/619592/ https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2021/07/cdc-coron... in places where the virus is surging https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2021/07/delta-transmission-vaccines/619615/ https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2021/07/delta-tra... controversially dispensed with in May https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/05/cdc-guidelines-masks-vaccinated-indoors/618883/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/05/cdc-guidel... a scientifically powerful pairing https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2021/07/cdc-coronavirus-masks-vaccines-indoors/619592/ https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2021/07/cdc-coron... Nearly 60 percent https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#vaccinations https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#vaccinations holding their own https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2021/07/anatomy-of-a-vaccine-breakthrough/619562/ https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2021/07/anatomy-... all known forms https://www.yalemedicine.org/news/covid-19-vaccine-comparison https://www.yalemedicine.org/news/covid-19-vaccine-compariso... contract the pathogen https://spiral.imperial.ac.uk/bitstream/10044/1/90800/2/react1_r13_final_preprint_final.pdf https://spiral.imperial.ac.uk/bitstream/10044/1/90800/2/reac... pass it on https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.28.21261295v1 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.28.21261295v... come down with disease https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2108891 https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2108891 the wiliest version of the virus to date https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2021/06/coronavirus-evolution-virulence/619301/ https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2021/06/coronavi... might also be likelier to land people in the hospital https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(21)01358-1/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6... set vaccinated immune systems up for success https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2021/07/cdc-coronavirus-masks-vaccines-indoors/619592/ https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2021/07/cdc-coron... protect vulnerable people in the vicinity https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2021/07/fully-vaccinated-masking-delta/619532/ https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2021/07/fully-vac... the government said they could https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/speeches-remarks/2021/05/13/remarks-by-president-biden-on-the-covid-19-response-and-the-vaccination-program-3/ https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/speeches-remarks/20... as the CDC stipulates https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#county-view https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#county-view even 90s https://twitter.com/AdamJKucharski/status/1415587170941874178 https://twitter.com/AdamJKucharski/status/141558717094187417... a bit of a hit https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2108891 https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2108891 a nasal spray https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/14/health/coronavirus-nasal-vaccines.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/14/health/coronavirus-nasal-... Recent modeling work https://www.doherty.edu.au/news-events/news/doherty-institute-modelling-report-for-national-cabinet https://www.doherty.edu.au/news-events/news/doherty-institut... backs this logic up https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2780539 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle... might slip on socially or seasonally https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2021/05/mask-mandates-will-come-and-go-and-come-again/619038/ https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2021/05/mask-mand... boosters https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2021/06/covid-19-vaccine-booster-shots-probably-inevitable/619272/ https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2021/06/covid-19... other airway viruses as well https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2021/02/covid-19-flu-season/617924/ https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2021/02/covid-19... long been commonplace elsewhere https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/04/america-asia-face-mask-coronavirus/609283/ https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/04/america...

foxyv 5y ago

It's a shame, because masks are so much less effective than vaccination. Last I saw, vaccination was 70% effective against the Delta variant. Masks reduce transmission by a paltry 10-20% or something even less. If we could just get everyone vaccinated it would make R much less than 1.0. But getting anti-vaxxers to wear a mask when vaccinated people don't have to is going to be impossible... As it is, with vaccination rates so low, I expect COVID is going to be forever. I don't mind wearing a mask to protect unvaccinated people and help out our medical professionals keep numbers down. But, it's going to be rough. I was so happy, I thought we were done.

morsch 5y ago
If we could just get everyone vaccinated it would make R much less than 1.0. I'm curious if we know this for a fact. We started out with attainable numbers for herd immunity (which I think is pretty much equivalent to R<1). But that was based on an apparent overestimation of the sterilizing immunity of the vaccines. The alternative appears to be an endemic virus with occasional booster vaccinations for certain populations.
- foxyv 5y ago
  We require about 80% vaccination or recovered from COVID to achieve herd immunity. Right now we have 50% vaccinated and 10% confirmed cases. The more infectious Delta variant has skewed it more towards a 90-95% requirement. This means that before we reach herd immunity we need to either vaccinate or infect an additional 20% of the population at least. I think a big factor was July 4th. Summer vacation kept cases low until now. Then the big family gatherings really ramped things up. Now we're going back to school soon. Vaccination reduces transmission but not 100%. Notice I said 70-80% and not 100%. I don't think anyone expected it to be 100% effective at preventing breakthrough infections. I'm hoping we don't have to eat that additional 20% with regular infection. Delta is NASTY.
  - morsch 5y ago
    I mean, if the numbers are right (they match what I'm reading here in Europe), I suppose we're lucky, because it's totally possible that given a slightly more contagious virus or a slightly higher rate of vaccine breakthrough that even at 100% vaccination/infection rate there is no herd immunity. On the other hand, if immunity decreases over time, we might need something like 90-95% vaccinated or infected during the past 3 months (just as an example). I'm not sure that we know where along those dimensions we are.

armchairhacker 5y ago

I’m all for masks, it’s a minor inconvenience. What i’m worried about is social distancing. Online school. Making it harder to meet people. Cancelling and postponing events. Even large gatherings of vaxxed individuals. And honestly, needing to wear masks at said gatherings. Correct me if i’m wrong, but the chance of a large vaxxed party causing someone serious illness or significantly spreading the virus to the unvaxxed is still very low. From what i’ve heard, Delta does infect vaccinated people but it’s usually mild. Moreover, if you ban these sorts of events you’re probably banning them long-term. Humans are social creatures, and it’s one thing to minimize social interaction for a year to save lives, it’s another to minimize for years (someone’s entire adolescence), especially when you’re not saving many lives anyways. Honestly, i’m an introverted person, i don’t even like crowded parties. But i feel for people who do. Moreover, if schools / colleges stay online or even hybrid it’s going to hurt students’ education and social development. If jobs are online and vacations are cancelled it’s going to make finding and maintaining friends as an adult harder, and afaik that’s already hard. Some things really are better virtual (e.g. virtual meetings), but some are effectively useless. It looks like right now this isn’t an issue, since i see events like lollapalooza and cruises which require proof of vaccination. And schools are starting in-person (although i’m worried for those under 12, the FDA should really approve the vaccine asap). But yeah, masks aren’t much of an issue, this is much more concerning.

AnonHP 5y ago

off topic: This post seems like an inappropriate one for HN. Scanning through the comments here, it seems like some kind of downvote brigading is happening on this thread. Comments, replies to comments and their replies are all being downvoted. Edit: I’ve now flagged it.

Thiez 5y ago
It's a very controversial topic, and downvoting to indicate disagreement is allowed. Seeing so many downvotes under these circumstances is not that surprising, is it?
- justwanttolearn 5y ago
  I was under the perception (new to HN) that downvotes are for when someone's comment does not add value to the conversation (eg. memes and name calling). Downvoting something you disagree is dangerous because it'll feed those that truly believe that to believe it even more (being silenced). Instead of downvoting we need to dedicate time to reason through why x is misinformation and walk through how you get to your conclusion. Sure not everyone has the time for that but also because no one is willing to dedicate time for that, we have this quick easy divisions with no explanation.
  - Thiez 5y ago
    Your perception is incorrect. You are certainly not alone in wanting downvotes to be different, but the current policy is that downvotes for disagreement are allowed.
    - justwanttolearn 5y ago
      I see, thank you for clarifying. That's kind of unfortunate because I feel that just because everyone feels one way doesn't mean that it is the truth. Sometimes when I don't have an opinion yet on a certain controversial topic and I go to a forum with no upvote/downvote system (very rare it exists), it lets me start with a un-biased ground and read critically into each person's pov.

apatil 5y ago

I think it's time to seriously think about putting the same amount of effort into non-pharmaceutical intervention (NPI) development as we put into the vaccines. As inspiration, note that parts of the US are have environments that can support malaria; malaria can spread very aggressively when conditions are favorable [1]; and that malaria used to be a major public health threat in the US. It is not anymore, despite the fact that there is no vaccine, because of NPI's. It was initially beaten back using NPI's and has been controlled using NPI's ever since [2]. What if we had an affordable, comfortable mask that worked so well that you have no practical chance of contracting an airborne virus while wearing it? I get that current N95 and surgical masks are not that, but I don't see why it would be impossible to create one within the physical laws of the universe, especially if you put power and air supplies on the table. Scuba gear and air-supplied biohazard suits seem to be existence proofs, the question is whether they can be made practical. If everyone had such a mask, we would have a new strategy available for controlling delta and any other variant that emerges in the future: everyone could mask up full-time when outside the house _for a limited amount of time_ until transmission drops to a low level. From that point, local outbreaks could be controlled by local bouts of masking, plus aggressive testing and contact tracing. I get that anti-masking would be an obstacle, but part of the difficulty has been messaging risk and uncertainty to people who start from a skeptical place. A mask that _positively_ protects the wearer, and that can remove the need for restrictions within a finite, predictable time, would be an easier sell, especially after the strategy is seen to work once or twice. 1: https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.0050042 https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/jou... 2: https://www.cdc.gov/malaria/about/history/elimination_us.html https://www.cdc.gov/malaria/about/history/elimination_us.htm...

umvi 5y ago
An interesting idea but this is a massive PR battle you'd have to win. At least 50% of the poplulation will scream at the idea of mandatory government-issued masks (even if they were billed as "super masks that protect you from all harm"). I suspect if you put it to a vote right now, more than 50% of the population would agree with the following phrase: "I feel that being vaccinated is good enough criteria to stop wearing a mask or social distance" The problem is that the goalposts keep shifting with this pandemic. Biden said earlier that if you got vaccinated you wouldn't need a mask any more. That was true for maybe 1 month here in Maryland. Goalposts have since shifted. What is the endgame? Nobody seems to know. It's just a nebulous incoherent mixture of random arguments involving protecting the unvaccinated, preventing hospitals from being overwhelmed, protecting children and immunocompromised, preventing covid from mutating, etc. Heavy handed public health policies aren't free. You might accomplish some public health goal, but at the cost of increased social discord, decreased citizen morale, increased mistrust of the government, increased illwill toward the government, or other factors which could have far worse long term consequences.