7 ms·

If a company cares about you, it is shown in money. The People and Culture guy is a snake oil salesman meant to scam you.

lallysingh 5y ago
There are certainly shops that treat you like garbage but pay very well. It's an abusive form of golden handcuffs.
- rdtwo 5y ago
  Amazon
pavel_lishin 5y ago
I think you're underplaying non-financial incentives. I would rather have a job that pays $X but offers flexible work hours and vacation time that allows me to be a better parent, than a job that pays $1.5X but won't let me take a day or afternoon off to (e.g.) take my kid to the doctor, etc. Granted, that probably applies more to WFH desk jobs than front-line nurses.
- kevinmchugh 5y ago
  There's probably some floor for X below which 1.5x is more valuable than the non-monetary incentives
  - skeeter2020 5y ago
    There is a well-studied phenomena where money is a very strong motivator until a individual-specific level, than quickly tapers off in perceived value. The challenge is the floor $ value is different for everyone and changes over time and circumstances.
- amerkhalid 5y ago
  Is there a number that will let you sacrifice your family life but also give you enough money to provide really good life for them? I am not saying it can make up for missing parents from ones life but I have seen kids who grew up with workaholic parents and are thankful for them. They had Better schools, professional nannies and tutors, and now they don’t have to work as hard.
  - JohnBooty 5y ago
    What a good, tough question. I'd suspect that it's less of an absolute "magic number" and more like a ratio compared to the alternative. Like a 2X or 3X salary increase, maybe more. If I was making $30K a year (slightly less than the national individual median income) and had kids, I'd have to strongly consider a $150K job that could open up a completely different set of opportunities for the kids. In a lot of places in America that's a leap from "borderline poor nutrition and you better hope you're smart enough to earn a full college scholarship... and try not to get shot in the meantime" to "safety, healthy food, and we're able to invest in your future." If I was already making $125K a year that $150K wouldn't be so persuasive. Not upending my life for that. Although, I suppose, once we start talking nannies and tutors we're probably looking at closer to $250-$500K anyway. A full-time nanny is... well, a full-time employee.
- bigmattystyles 5y ago
  An RN I know in New Orleans makes a paltry $28 / hour. Insidiously, they gave her 10k upfront for a 3 year contract. If she leaves, she has to give it back. She put it straight to her student loans so now she’s stuck there. I agree with op, we say we love our front line workers, but that’s just talk. I’m not sure but there’s not much of a union for them down there.
  - nwellinghoff 5y ago
    News flash. There is no way they can get that money back. She can walk at anytime
    - JohnBooty 5y ago
      Can you back this up? Labor laws vary significantly by country/state.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
    - Jtsummers 5y ago
      This would largely depend on the particular contract. Money can be paid conditioned on an expectation of working for a period of time. Failure to meet your end can result in having to pay it back (in full or in part).
      - R0b0t1 5y ago
        Case in TX where this was overturned. Employer was Buc-ees. The amount in question was far higher, about $100k, as the employee was given a $X/hr raise contingent on at least Y years of service. Court ruled contract violated right to work. This may mean bonus clawbacks can't work.
        Jtsummers 5y ago
        https://cases.justia.com/texas/fourteenth-court-of-appeals/2017-14-15-01061-cv.pdf?ts=1507810495 https://cases.justia.com/texas/fourteenth-court-of-appeals/2... Interesting case. I'm not a lawyer and have only given this a quick read, but it seems that the amount she could owe back was essentially unbounded, the longer she was there the more she could owe back. That was a major factor in the decision against Buc-ee's. See pages 8 and 9, in particular. I don't think this would work against bonus claw backs in general, only if they were similarly considered unreasonable and also only in TX, whose laws were violated in this case. (EDIT: Or states with similar laws, obviously.) A $10k signing bonus that has a bounded and shorter obligation period could be considered reasonable. > As noted above, an enforceable covenant must contain limitations as to time, geographic area, and scope of activity to be restrained that are reasonable and do not impose a greater restraint than necessary to protect the employer’s business interest. https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/Docs/BC/htm/BC.15.htm https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/Docs/BC/htm/BC.15.htm Sections 15.50 and 15.51 are the relevant parts.
- mumblemumble 5y ago
  The disgruntled nurses I know don't want more money anywhere near as much as they want things like lunch and bathroom breaks. Money can't buy happiness, but not being able to take care of your basic bodily needs can absolutely buy unhappiness.
  - zepto 5y ago
    > Money can't buy happiness No but not having enough will make you unhappy, and keep you trapped there.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - dividefuel 5y ago
    My spouse is just starting her first RN job. As part of the onboarding, an administrator/HR person called and strongly suggested that she sign a paper waiving one of her 30 minute lunch periods. Even though the paper says "I am not being coerced", it's pretty clear that signing it is necessary for getting the job.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - sjdrc 5y ago
      How can a document like that even be legal? What reason would a worker have to willingly sign away their rights?
  - skt5 5y ago
    > Money can't buy happiness Usually when someone says this to me, I respond with "then you're spending your money poorly". What I mean to say is that more money buys more flexibility and options, which should lead to more opportunities to leave unhappy situations or at least add more happy situations. Note that this is a generalization so there are plenty of edge cases to counter this.
- analog31 5y ago
  Is such a tradeoff common? Or do the best employers offer both?
  - erikerikson 5y ago
    The best employers offer both and often have far better profitability.
- MattGaiser 5y ago
  Money can be used to care in different ways. It can be in cash for your current workload or it can be to hire others so your workload is less. But both cost money.
- res0nat0r 5y ago
  I think in this case, I think hospital staff at least would like to be paid more for the hell they've been going through over the last year vs. having folks stand outside on their balcony and clap at 7PM and pretend that will fix everything.
- syshum 5y ago
  That only works if $X is over your what you feel is "required" to sustain your life style. Generally Speaking in all but the biggest cities that is probably around the 60K-70K annual mark anything over that a person might put other things ahead of salary However if you are working for $60K you bet you ass MONEY is how a company should be showing their love...
- arp242 5y ago
  That's all very good; I genuinely agree with it, and I think it applies to nurses too (schedules etc. permitting). But it doesn't work if you're struggling to make ends meet. There are hospital workers who don't have health care because they can't afford it for example.
- ledauphin 5y ago
  you're right about these other incentives, but they're all forms of time off. I believe the GP was referring to the other "stuff" companies try to do to get you to feel like they care about you, but that don't impact your ability to make your own choices about your life the way more time or money do. e.g., "free" swag, company-wide retreats/outings
werber 5y ago
I think it's also shown in time. I've had jobs that paid me more than my current one, but I was paying for that by my personal time being completely abused on a regular basis, even if it's just a small thing or 3 daily it ends up feeling like you never stop working. I don't have any means of work communication on my phone now, and I've gotten one call that I said I was open to in my current role. To me, shutting my computer and work being completely over till I open it again is such a relief.
- mrtranscendence 5y ago
  Yes, I think attitude towards personal time (or more generally, work-life balance) really is a facet of culture that's important to bear in mind. I've been lucky in that regard, as my managers and coworkers have been very forgiving when it comes to (say) taking off suddenly so I can take my rabbit to the emergency vet. I wouldn't give that flexibility up for double the pay. If I'm ever in a job where they routinely abuse off hours or disapprove of taking time off, I'll be looking intensely for something to replace it.
planet-and-halo 5y ago
This is very reductive and I assume means you've never worked somewhere with an actually decent culture. I understand your cynicism: there are indeed a lot of bullshitters out there. But there are some good places to work here and there, places where the bosses listen and respect the humanity and autonomy of the people around them. Frequently this occurs at a local level rather than across an entire company, but it does happen. (Note: I'm not saying it's an excuse to underpay people, I'm saying this can be an issue entirely independent of pay.)
- DamnYuppie 5y ago
  I have worked for places with amazing culture and benefits. I still left and went somewhere else for a 50% pay increase. At the end of the day I look at the extra amount I am saving and what it does to my retirement account. The place I left to was by no means horrible but was not at the same level in terms of culture/vacation. Also I did end up returning to that company after 4 years and was able to get an even bigger raise upon my return. As always the best way to increase your pay is by leaving, so sad to be honest.
  - mrtranscendence 5y ago
    It's one thing to move from amazing to not bad for 50% more pay. It's another to move from a good work culture to one that abuses your off time, expects you never to take time off, or forces frequent overtime. I just recently moved from a place with very good culture and benefits to a contracting company with much worse benefits. Just going from five weeks vacation to two weeks alone really stings. And my pay only went up 10% ... it wasn't only the money, it was because I wanted something new, but I still have a growing sense of regret.
    - eckesicle 5y ago
      Why don't you go ask for your old job back? Worst case they say no.
- NineStarPoint 5y ago
brightball 5y ago
For what it's worth, in insurance controlled businesses that's easier said than done. I'm not dismissing your point, just saying that there are a lot of complexities.
nimbius 5y ago
maybe in tech companies but in more traditional roles like manufacturing and maintenance, its paid in respect for your time. Mandatory overtime is a real thing in the US and less of it means a stronger relationship with your employees. all the money in the world wont replace your weekends.
Tempest1981 5y ago
Or maybe your mental health is shitty after intubating people and watching them slowly die, over and over for 18 months, with no end in sight. Money can't fix that.
hn_throwaway_99 5y ago
FWIW, there was a post by an ICU nurse in my local subreddit who said that NOBODY took advantage of extra available shifts even though the hospital was offering double pay. Her point was for many medical personnel, it's not about money, it's about being exhausted and burnt out.
- lotsofpulp 5y ago
  Bump it up to 10x, and then 100x. Of course, money is just a means to an end, so if the amount of money being offered is not going to achieve one’s goal, then it is useless. If that goal is increasing one’s quality of life by either earning so much that you can quit, or by hiring more people so that you do not get burned out, either way the answer is money. However, the bedrock of our society has been a growing working age population that is OK with meager wages and quality of life at work, allowing us to lives more luxurious than otherwise could be. This dynamic should change once the working age population decreases relative to the old age population who need the services.
TheCoelacanth 5y ago
Good working conditions are also an aspect of the company caring about you. If a company pays you well, but still abuses you, they don't care about you.

lallysingh 5y ago

There are certainly shops that treat you like garbage but pay very well. It's an abusive form of golden handcuffs.

rdtwo 5y ago
Amazon

pavel_lishin 5y ago

I think you're underplaying non-financial incentives. I would rather have a job that pays $X but offers flexible work hours and vacation time that allows me to be a better parent, than a job that pays $1.5X but won't let me take a day or afternoon off to (e.g.) take my kid to the doctor, etc. Granted, that probably applies more to WFH desk jobs than front-line nurses.

kevinmchugh 5y ago
There's probably some floor for X below which 1.5x is more valuable than the non-monetary incentives
- skeeter2020 5y ago
  There is a well-studied phenomena where money is a very strong motivator until a individual-specific level, than quickly tapers off in perceived value. The challenge is the floor $ value is different for everyone and changes over time and circumstances.
amerkhalid 5y ago
Is there a number that will let you sacrifice your family life but also give you enough money to provide really good life for them? I am not saying it can make up for missing parents from ones life but I have seen kids who grew up with workaholic parents and are thankful for them. They had Better schools, professional nannies and tutors, and now they don’t have to work as hard.
- JohnBooty 5y ago
  What a good, tough question. I'd suspect that it's less of an absolute "magic number" and more like a ratio compared to the alternative. Like a 2X or 3X salary increase, maybe more. If I was making $30K a year (slightly less than the national individual median income) and had kids, I'd have to strongly consider a $150K job that could open up a completely different set of opportunities for the kids. In a lot of places in America that's a leap from "borderline poor nutrition and you better hope you're smart enough to earn a full college scholarship... and try not to get shot in the meantime" to "safety, healthy food, and we're able to invest in your future." If I was already making $125K a year that $150K wouldn't be so persuasive. Not upending my life for that. Although, I suppose, once we start talking nannies and tutors we're probably looking at closer to $250-$500K anyway. A full-time nanny is... well, a full-time employee.
bigmattystyles 5y ago
An RN I know in New Orleans makes a paltry $28 / hour. Insidiously, they gave her 10k upfront for a 3 year contract. If she leaves, she has to give it back. She put it straight to her student loans so now she’s stuck there. I agree with op, we say we love our front line workers, but that’s just talk. I’m not sure but there’s not much of a union for them down there.
- nwellinghoff 5y ago
  News flash. There is no way they can get that money back. She can walk at anytime
  - JohnBooty 5y ago
    Can you back this up? Labor laws vary significantly by country/state.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - Jtsummers 5y ago
    This would largely depend on the particular contract. Money can be paid conditioned on an expectation of working for a period of time. Failure to meet your end can result in having to pay it back (in full or in part).
    - R0b0t1 5y ago
      Case in TX where this was overturned. Employer was Buc-ees. The amount in question was far higher, about $100k, as the employee was given a $X/hr raise contingent on at least Y years of service. Court ruled contract violated right to work. This may mean bonus clawbacks can't work.
      - Jtsummers 5y ago
        https://cases.justia.com/texas/fourteenth-court-of-appeals/2017-14-15-01061-cv.pdf?ts=1507810495 https://cases.justia.com/texas/fourteenth-court-of-appeals/2... Interesting case. I'm not a lawyer and have only given this a quick read, but it seems that the amount she could owe back was essentially unbounded, the longer she was there the more she could owe back. That was a major factor in the decision against Buc-ee's. See pages 8 and 9, in particular. I don't think this would work against bonus claw backs in general, only if they were similarly considered unreasonable and also only in TX, whose laws were violated in this case. (EDIT: Or states with similar laws, obviously.) A $10k signing bonus that has a bounded and shorter obligation period could be considered reasonable. > As noted above, an enforceable covenant must contain limitations as to time, geographic area, and scope of activity to be restrained that are reasonable and do not impose a greater restraint than necessary to protect the employer’s business interest. https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/Docs/BC/htm/BC.15.htm https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/Docs/BC/htm/BC.15.htm Sections 15.50 and 15.51 are the relevant parts.
mumblemumble 5y ago
The disgruntled nurses I know don't want more money anywhere near as much as they want things like lunch and bathroom breaks. Money can't buy happiness, but not being able to take care of your basic bodily needs can absolutely buy unhappiness.
- zepto 5y ago
  > Money can't buy happiness No but not having enough will make you unhappy, and keep you trapped there.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- dividefuel 5y ago
  My spouse is just starting her first RN job. As part of the onboarding, an administrator/HR person called and strongly suggested that she sign a paper waiving one of her 30 minute lunch periods. Even though the paper says "I am not being coerced", it's pretty clear that signing it is necessary for getting the job.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - sjdrc 5y ago
    How can a document like that even be legal? What reason would a worker have to willingly sign away their rights?
- skt5 5y ago
  > Money can't buy happiness Usually when someone says this to me, I respond with "then you're spending your money poorly". What I mean to say is that more money buys more flexibility and options, which should lead to more opportunities to leave unhappy situations or at least add more happy situations. Note that this is a generalization so there are plenty of edge cases to counter this.
analog31 5y ago
Is such a tradeoff common? Or do the best employers offer both?
- erikerikson 5y ago
  The best employers offer both and often have far better profitability.
MattGaiser 5y ago
Money can be used to care in different ways. It can be in cash for your current workload or it can be to hire others so your workload is less. But both cost money.
res0nat0r 5y ago
I think in this case, I think hospital staff at least would like to be paid more for the hell they've been going through over the last year vs. having folks stand outside on their balcony and clap at 7PM and pretend that will fix everything.
syshum 5y ago
That only works if $X is over your what you feel is "required" to sustain your life style. Generally Speaking in all but the biggest cities that is probably around the 60K-70K annual mark anything over that a person might put other things ahead of salary However if you are working for $60K you bet you ass MONEY is how a company should be showing their love...
arp242 5y ago
That's all very good; I genuinely agree with it, and I think it applies to nurses too (schedules etc. permitting). But it doesn't work if you're struggling to make ends meet. There are hospital workers who don't have health care because they can't afford it for example.
ledauphin 5y ago
you're right about these other incentives, but they're all forms of time off. I believe the GP was referring to the other "stuff" companies try to do to get you to feel like they care about you, but that don't impact your ability to make your own choices about your life the way more time or money do. e.g., "free" swag, company-wide retreats/outings

werber 5y ago

I think it's also shown in time. I've had jobs that paid me more than my current one, but I was paying for that by my personal time being completely abused on a regular basis, even if it's just a small thing or 3 daily it ends up feeling like you never stop working. I don't have any means of work communication on my phone now, and I've gotten one call that I said I was open to in my current role. To me, shutting my computer and work being completely over till I open it again is such a relief.

mrtranscendence 5y ago
Yes, I think attitude towards personal time (or more generally, work-life balance) really is a facet of culture that's important to bear in mind. I've been lucky in that regard, as my managers and coworkers have been very forgiving when it comes to (say) taking off suddenly so I can take my rabbit to the emergency vet. I wouldn't give that flexibility up for double the pay. If I'm ever in a job where they routinely abuse off hours or disapprove of taking time off, I'll be looking intensely for something to replace it.

planet-and-halo 5y ago

This is very reductive and I assume means you've never worked somewhere with an actually decent culture. I understand your cynicism: there are indeed a lot of bullshitters out there. But there are some good places to work here and there, places where the bosses listen and respect the humanity and autonomy of the people around them. Frequently this occurs at a local level rather than across an entire company, but it does happen. (Note: I'm not saying it's an excuse to underpay people, I'm saying this can be an issue entirely independent of pay.)

DamnYuppie 5y ago
I have worked for places with amazing culture and benefits. I still left and went somewhere else for a 50% pay increase. At the end of the day I look at the extra amount I am saving and what it does to my retirement account. The place I left to was by no means horrible but was not at the same level in terms of culture/vacation. Also I did end up returning to that company after 4 years and was able to get an even bigger raise upon my return. As always the best way to increase your pay is by leaving, so sad to be honest.
- mrtranscendence 5y ago
  It's one thing to move from amazing to not bad for 50% more pay. It's another to move from a good work culture to one that abuses your off time, expects you never to take time off, or forces frequent overtime. I just recently moved from a place with very good culture and benefits to a contracting company with much worse benefits. Just going from five weeks vacation to two weeks alone really stings. And my pay only went up 10% ... it wasn't only the money, it was because I wanted something new, but I still have a growing sense of regret.
  - eckesicle 5y ago
    Why don't you go ask for your old job back? Worst case they say no.
NineStarPoint 5y ago

brightball 5y ago

For what it's worth, in insurance controlled businesses that's easier said than done. I'm not dismissing your point, just saying that there are a lot of complexities.

nimbius 5y ago

maybe in tech companies but in more traditional roles like manufacturing and maintenance, its paid in respect for your time. Mandatory overtime is a real thing in the US and less of it means a stronger relationship with your employees. all the money in the world wont replace your weekends.

Tempest1981 5y ago

Or maybe your mental health is shitty after intubating people and watching them slowly die, over and over for 18 months, with no end in sight. Money can't fix that.

hn_throwaway_99 5y ago

FWIW, there was a post by an ICU nurse in my local subreddit who said that NOBODY took advantage of extra available shifts even though the hospital was offering double pay. Her point was for many medical personnel, it's not about money, it's about being exhausted and burnt out.

lotsofpulp 5y ago
Bump it up to 10x, and then 100x. Of course, money is just a means to an end, so if the amount of money being offered is not going to achieve one’s goal, then it is useless. If that goal is increasing one’s quality of life by either earning so much that you can quit, or by hiring more people so that you do not get burned out, either way the answer is money. However, the bedrock of our society has been a growing working age population that is OK with meager wages and quality of life at work, allowing us to lives more luxurious than otherwise could be. This dynamic should change once the working age population decreases relative to the old age population who need the services.

TheCoelacanth 5y ago

Good working conditions are also an aspect of the company caring about you. If a company pays you well, but still abuses you, they don't care about you.