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Thanks for having the courage to write this. I couldnt agree more. I find the risk assessment argument of the thread parent really twisted. Younger people ef

Thanks for having the courage to write this. I couldnt agree more. I find the risk assessment argument of the thread parent really twisted. Younger people effectively have no risk of dying from covid. Elderly have. And now, the left is trying to force everyone to vaccinate, no matter how good or bad their immune system might be. This world has become a place I actually really dont want to live in. If this trend really wins and people accept a world of forced vaccination and masks and restrictions of public areas, I prefer to contract covid and die.

FactolSarin 5y ago
Oh, get over yourself. Vaccines save lives. That life might be an immunocompromised person for whom the vaccine doesn't work. My boss lost his mother last month in just that manner. I personally don't care if you decide to die or not, if you choose to forego the vaccine. But your freedom to be dumb ends when you put other lives in danger. In that way, being unvaccinated is like driving drunk. We don't make DUIs illegal to save the drunk driver's life, that's just a bonus. We're mostly trying to stop them from killing innocents with their poor decision making.
- mdorazio 5y ago
  This is effectively a "think of the children argument". People with health complications will always be at higher risk of bad disease outcomes than the rest of the population. That includes the regular flu, too, and is pretty much guaranteed to include some form of COVID forever at this point. You don't get to use that as some kind of moral high ground to force your personal stance on everyone else. Educate people about the low risk and high benefit of getting vaccinated. Encourage them to do so as a generally good thing for society. But framing it the way you are right now is not just unhelpful, it actively makes unvaccinated people think you hate freedom and don't give a damn about anyone's personal opinions.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - FactolSarin 5y ago
    1) I didn't mention children at all. I'm certainly not making a "think of the children" argument. That implies you think COVID is overblown and not a serious threat. But it is, and it's killed millions. 2) I don't give a damn about dumb opinions, and it's not my job to "educate" people that, let's be honest, don't really want to learn. The solution to stop deaths by DUIs isn't to try and convince people that they're wrong for driving drunk. The solution to stop deaths by lead poisoning isn't to try and educate consumers about the danger of lead in food. Framing that as "hating freedom" is disengenuous. It would be nice if people did the bare minimum to not endanger lives, without requiring the force of law. Sadly, that's not always the case.
    - mdorazio 5y ago
      1) Replace "children" with "immunocompromised people". It is the exact same argument. Don't be pedantic. And yes, I do believe COVID is overblown in how it is presented. The risk factors are very clear now and nowhere near as bad as they were originally presented, or as bad as people still seem to think they are. 2) You just did it again - stating other people's opinions are "dumb" because they don't adhere to your personal mantra is exactly how you make other people completely disengage. Just like I'm going to do now.
      - FactolSarin 5y ago
        To be clear, there's nothing wrong with thinking of children (or the immunocompromised or handicapped or any other group). "Think of the children" is an argument where you use children to justify an absurd, overblown, or bad faith argument. You seem to think it means "I shouldn't have to think about other people's well-being because freedom." I think that's pretty callous.
        mlang23 5y ago
        As a person with a disability, I request respectfully that you leave disability out of your flawed "everyone needs to comply with my opinion" nonsense. I dont want to see disability abused by people like you. Understood? Keep your patronising to yourself and your family.
  - XorNot 5y ago
    So are you vaccinated? I feel like this is the entry question to this argument. And if not, why not?
  - curmudgeon22 5y ago
    I think if the vaccines offered sterilizing immunity, you'd have a much stronger argument. As it is, vaccinated are able to transmit the disease, also putting immunocompromised at risk. That the vaccines appear to lack durable protection is a problem as well IMO. What are the compound impacts of the vaccines if booster shots are required on an annual basis?
    - mlang23 5y ago
      > if booster shots are required on an annual basis Even worse, where I live the current story is a bi-annual renewal! I will fight this as long as I can. I dont want a dependency like that. Its a socially enforced drug abuse.
- Rapzid 5y ago
  I'm honestly surprised DUI laws are not brought up more as an analogy when discussing mask mandates and other public health measures. An argument for driving drunk that sounds a lot like more than a few no-mask and no-vax arguments; "I drive drunk all the time and have never hurt anyone; I will probably never kill anyone. If you can't accept the risk of driving on the roads with me then stay home!". And also, in both cases of course it's the potential harm to others that tends to make the laws acceptable. In the case of SCOTUS, it's settled that the government can take EXTREME measures in the name of public health.. Likely far beyond anything we have had to deal with so far. But the courts acceptance (which is the source of truth of what is legal) is contextual. So the slippery slope arguments are off base IMHO because something upheld in the context of the pandemic could be struck down outside the pandemic.. We live by rule of law and it's a glorious thing. As much as I enjoy being cynical, getting together to agree on rules we wouldn't otherwise hold ourselves to(game theory?) is an amazing thing.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- mlang23 5y ago
  While we are at it. I also don't care if your bosses mother died or not. Since she is your bosses mother, she likely had an age where death is lurking around the corner anyway.
  - FactolSarin 5y ago
    She wasn't retired, so I'd guess in her early 60s and didn't have any other major health issues from what I understand. But I'm glad you laid your cards on the table about not caring. I mean, it was already pretty clear. Laws exist to protect innocents from people like you.
    - mlang23 5y ago
      I am still not impressed. My father died with 39, my aunt with 42, and both my grannies didnt go beyond 70. This was way before corona. Life isnt guaranteed to last for 100 years. Stop fucking over the whole world just because you can not accept that it is finite.
cobbzilla 5y ago
What you are describing could be called geritocracy, which is a bit of a pejorative, implying negative outcomes, particularly for the young. But then consider Florida, with the most old folks per capita, and what their policies and outcomes have been.
shaklee3 5y ago
> Younger people effectively have no risk of dying from covid. Elderly have Not true. Delta is showing increasingly worse numbers for younger people. Some children's hospitals are full from it. If you have another argument besides that one let's discuss.
- mlang23 5y ago
  I think you are spreading FUD. So no need to argue with you.
  - shaklee3 5y ago
    https://nypost.com/2021/08/04/covid-19-cases-in-children-surge-84-percent-in-one-week-study/ https://nypost.com/2021/08/04/covid-19-cases-in-children-sur...
    - timr 5y ago
      So, yet another article about "cases" that are "surging"...however: "The study does note that “it appears that severe illness due to COVID-19 is uncommon among children.” "Among the 23 states and New York City reviewed by AAP, children’s hospitalizations made up 1.3 – 3.5 percent of all COVID-19 hospitalizations for the week ending July 29." "According to the study, children were 0.00 – 0.26 percent of all COVID-19 deaths, and seven states reported zero child deaths among data from 43 states, New York City, Puerto Rico and Guam, with 0.00 – 0.03 percent of all child COVID-19 cases resulted in death in those areas." If you're trying to provide evidence that Covid does not present a serious threat to children, it'd be hard to do a better job.
salamandersauce 5y ago
Jesus christ. Did you go to public school? In most cases vaccinations for common diseases is required to attend. Vaccines save lives, is very little burden to you especially if you "have a good immune system". The faster we get everyone vaccinated the faster we get rid of the need of masks and restrictions. It's morons like you elongating things. If you get on that ventilatior you won't be thinking you made the right choice. You'll be wishing you took the vaccine like so many stories we see today. What an idiotic hill to die on.
- mlang23 5y ago
  Keep your FUD to yourself and to your family. I am young and healthy enough that I will not need a hospital if I get a covid infection. Your FUD does not change my attitude.
  - salamandersauce 5y ago
    Will everyone you know with that attitude be so lucky? Or those that actually can't get the vaccine. You sound like a selfish jerk. Did you ever stop and think that maybe your family and friends won't be so lucky as to not need a hospital? It's not just for you!!! Even if your young and healthy there's still a non-zero chance something could happen to you. Why not just get it on the off chance?
    - mlang23 5y ago
      Yet another FUD-spreader. > there's still a non-zero chance something somethin could happen to you. That was true before the pandemic, and it is still true today. If I die, I die. No need to restrict the lives of everyone else just because you are afraid of death.
      - salamandersauce 5y ago
        Just because you don't like the message it's not FUD. Do you not wear a seatbelt in the car too? If you die, you die. Why bother wearing a bike helmet? If you die, you die. Unprotected sex with strangers? Sure, why not. If you die, you die. Why bother mitigating any risk that you can? I mean if you die, you die. Live your life free am I right? No need for silly restrictions like seatbelts, helmets or condoms.
disgruntledphd2 5y ago
> the left is trying to force everyone to vaccinate If you believe that the left is pretty much every public health organisation in every country in the world, then yes. Otherwise, your statement is false. If Trump had won, and he had encouraged vaccination, would you be blaming the right?

FactolSarin 5y ago

Oh, get over yourself. Vaccines save lives. That life might be an immunocompromised person for whom the vaccine doesn't work. My boss lost his mother last month in just that manner. I personally don't care if you decide to die or not, if you choose to forego the vaccine. But your freedom to be dumb ends when you put other lives in danger. In that way, being unvaccinated is like driving drunk. We don't make DUIs illegal to save the drunk driver's life, that's just a bonus. We're mostly trying to stop them from killing innocents with their poor decision making.

mdorazio 5y ago
This is effectively a "think of the children argument". People with health complications will always be at higher risk of bad disease outcomes than the rest of the population. That includes the regular flu, too, and is pretty much guaranteed to include some form of COVID forever at this point. You don't get to use that as some kind of moral high ground to force your personal stance on everyone else. Educate people about the low risk and high benefit of getting vaccinated. Encourage them to do so as a generally good thing for society. But framing it the way you are right now is not just unhelpful, it actively makes unvaccinated people think you hate freedom and don't give a damn about anyone's personal opinions.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- FactolSarin 5y ago
  1) I didn't mention children at all. I'm certainly not making a "think of the children" argument. That implies you think COVID is overblown and not a serious threat. But it is, and it's killed millions. 2) I don't give a damn about dumb opinions, and it's not my job to "educate" people that, let's be honest, don't really want to learn. The solution to stop deaths by DUIs isn't to try and convince people that they're wrong for driving drunk. The solution to stop deaths by lead poisoning isn't to try and educate consumers about the danger of lead in food. Framing that as "hating freedom" is disengenuous. It would be nice if people did the bare minimum to not endanger lives, without requiring the force of law. Sadly, that's not always the case.
  - mdorazio 5y ago
    1) Replace "children" with "immunocompromised people". It is the exact same argument. Don't be pedantic. And yes, I do believe COVID is overblown in how it is presented. The risk factors are very clear now and nowhere near as bad as they were originally presented, or as bad as people still seem to think they are. 2) You just did it again - stating other people's opinions are "dumb" because they don't adhere to your personal mantra is exactly how you make other people completely disengage. Just like I'm going to do now.
    - FactolSarin 5y ago
      To be clear, there's nothing wrong with thinking of children (or the immunocompromised or handicapped or any other group). "Think of the children" is an argument where you use children to justify an absurd, overblown, or bad faith argument. You seem to think it means "I shouldn't have to think about other people's well-being because freedom." I think that's pretty callous.
      - mlang23 5y ago
        As a person with a disability, I request respectfully that you leave disability out of your flawed "everyone needs to comply with my opinion" nonsense. I dont want to see disability abused by people like you. Understood? Keep your patronising to yourself and your family.
- XorNot 5y ago
  So are you vaccinated? I feel like this is the entry question to this argument. And if not, why not?
- curmudgeon22 5y ago
  I think if the vaccines offered sterilizing immunity, you'd have a much stronger argument. As it is, vaccinated are able to transmit the disease, also putting immunocompromised at risk. That the vaccines appear to lack durable protection is a problem as well IMO. What are the compound impacts of the vaccines if booster shots are required on an annual basis?
  - mlang23 5y ago
    > if booster shots are required on an annual basis Even worse, where I live the current story is a bi-annual renewal! I will fight this as long as I can. I dont want a dependency like that. Its a socially enforced drug abuse.
Rapzid 5y ago
I'm honestly surprised DUI laws are not brought up more as an analogy when discussing mask mandates and other public health measures. An argument for driving drunk that sounds a lot like more than a few no-mask and no-vax arguments; "I drive drunk all the time and have never hurt anyone; I will probably never kill anyone. If you can't accept the risk of driving on the roads with me then stay home!". And also, in both cases of course it's the potential harm to others that tends to make the laws acceptable. In the case of SCOTUS, it's settled that the government can take EXTREME measures in the name of public health.. Likely far beyond anything we have had to deal with so far. But the courts acceptance (which is the source of truth of what is legal) is contextual. So the slippery slope arguments are off base IMHO because something upheld in the context of the pandemic could be struck down outside the pandemic.. We live by rule of law and it's a glorious thing. As much as I enjoy being cynical, getting together to agree on rules we wouldn't otherwise hold ourselves to(game theory?) is an amazing thing.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
mlang23 5y ago
While we are at it. I also don't care if your bosses mother died or not. Since she is your bosses mother, she likely had an age where death is lurking around the corner anyway.
- FactolSarin 5y ago
  She wasn't retired, so I'd guess in her early 60s and didn't have any other major health issues from what I understand. But I'm glad you laid your cards on the table about not caring. I mean, it was already pretty clear. Laws exist to protect innocents from people like you.
  - mlang23 5y ago
    I am still not impressed. My father died with 39, my aunt with 42, and both my grannies didnt go beyond 70. This was way before corona. Life isnt guaranteed to last for 100 years. Stop fucking over the whole world just because you can not accept that it is finite.

cobbzilla 5y ago

What you are describing could be called geritocracy, which is a bit of a pejorative, implying negative outcomes, particularly for the young. But then consider Florida, with the most old folks per capita, and what their policies and outcomes have been.

shaklee3 5y ago

> Younger people effectively have no risk of dying from covid. Elderly have Not true. Delta is showing increasingly worse numbers for younger people. Some children's hospitals are full from it. If you have another argument besides that one let's discuss.

mlang23 5y ago
I think you are spreading FUD. So no need to argue with you.
- shaklee3 5y ago
  https://nypost.com/2021/08/04/covid-19-cases-in-children-surge-84-percent-in-one-week-study/ https://nypost.com/2021/08/04/covid-19-cases-in-children-sur...
  - timr 5y ago
    So, yet another article about "cases" that are "surging"...however: "The study does note that “it appears that severe illness due to COVID-19 is uncommon among children.” "Among the 23 states and New York City reviewed by AAP, children’s hospitalizations made up 1.3 – 3.5 percent of all COVID-19 hospitalizations for the week ending July 29." "According to the study, children were 0.00 – 0.26 percent of all COVID-19 deaths, and seven states reported zero child deaths among data from 43 states, New York City, Puerto Rico and Guam, with 0.00 – 0.03 percent of all child COVID-19 cases resulted in death in those areas." If you're trying to provide evidence that Covid does not present a serious threat to children, it'd be hard to do a better job.

salamandersauce 5y ago

Jesus christ. Did you go to public school? In most cases vaccinations for common diseases is required to attend. Vaccines save lives, is very little burden to you especially if you "have a good immune system". The faster we get everyone vaccinated the faster we get rid of the need of masks and restrictions. It's morons like you elongating things. If you get on that ventilatior you won't be thinking you made the right choice. You'll be wishing you took the vaccine like so many stories we see today. What an idiotic hill to die on.

mlang23 5y ago
Keep your FUD to yourself and to your family. I am young and healthy enough that I will not need a hospital if I get a covid infection. Your FUD does not change my attitude.
- salamandersauce 5y ago
  Will everyone you know with that attitude be so lucky? Or those that actually can't get the vaccine. You sound like a selfish jerk. Did you ever stop and think that maybe your family and friends won't be so lucky as to not need a hospital? It's not just for you!!! Even if your young and healthy there's still a non-zero chance something could happen to you. Why not just get it on the off chance?
  - mlang23 5y ago
    Yet another FUD-spreader. > there's still a non-zero chance something somethin could happen to you. That was true before the pandemic, and it is still true today. If I die, I die. No need to restrict the lives of everyone else just because you are afraid of death.
    - salamandersauce 5y ago
      Just because you don't like the message it's not FUD. Do you not wear a seatbelt in the car too? If you die, you die. Why bother wearing a bike helmet? If you die, you die. Unprotected sex with strangers? Sure, why not. If you die, you die. Why bother mitigating any risk that you can? I mean if you die, you die. Live your life free am I right? No need for silly restrictions like seatbelts, helmets or condoms.

disgruntledphd2 5y ago

> the left is trying to force everyone to vaccinate If you believe that the left is pretty much every public health organisation in every country in the world, then yes. Otherwise, your statement is false. If Trump had won, and he had encouraged vaccination, would you be blaming the right?