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Vaccination in NY/NYC is easily proven. Picture of your vaccine card is sufficent and there's also the excelsior pass which is a QR code. Super easy to get from

Vaccination in NY/NYC is easily proven. Picture of your vaccine card is sufficent and there's also the excelsior pass which is a QR code. Super easy to get from a city/state website after entering a few details (think name, when your last vaccine was, which vaccine etc). This can be downloaded as an image, into apple wallet etc. For those who chose not to, they can stick to carrying around their vaccine card (just as anyone carries around an ID, cash, credit card, cell phone, mask, etc) or just keep a picture of it on their phone The vaccine is free for everyone, so there's very little discrimination there. In NY there are plenty of sites to go to where you can walk in and be out today in under an hour. Likely half an hour. As to the privacy, yes, that's a fair concern but its literally no different than having to get a vaccine to travel to certain countries. Data exposed is minimal and not that much more than what would be gathered showing your ID when buying alcohol which contains your name, dob, address, etc. Far more personal information then if I'm vaxxed. Those who are ineligible for the vaccine (due to age mostly now) I don't think are subject to this. Most people with medical conditions are still able to get vaxxed. If not, they especially should not be going out. Those who are vaxxed and also immunocompromised have far less protection as well compared to their peers who aren't immunocompromised. Anyone over the minimum age qualifies for the vaccine. If people at this point are willfully choosing not to get vaccinated tough luck. Its absurd and they shouldn't be allowed to prevent those of us who care about each other and the community from enjoying life again.

analyte123 5y ago
Getting a vaccine to cross an international border is not the same as getting a vaccine to walk to a bar on your own street in your own country. Besides, people who have not had the Covid vaccine are not directly preventing anyone from enjoying life. The people are either choosing to not enjoy life themselves, or their government is putting restrictions on them (and then they are obeying them) while blaming the restrictions on non-vaccinated people.
- Daishiman 5y ago
  Anywhere where an ICU bed is taken by an unvaxxed COVID patient is a bed that was available for anyone else for any other reason. Anwhere where unvaxxed people have to take time out because they're sick is time they could have spent working, contributing towards their families or communities, and someone is going to have to take up the work. So not, at a collective level, unvaccinated people are _very much_ preventing others from enjoying themselves.
  - h_anna_h 5y ago
    Don't put unvaxxed and these who were injured/became ill due to their own incompetence or recklessness in an ICU bed then? (as long as they are full that is) > and someone is going to have to take up the work. There is a lot of unemployment. This is also true for the paid and unpaid leaves btw, should we illegalise these?
    - Daishiman 5y ago
      > There is a lot of unemployment. This is also true for the paid and unpaid leaves btw, should we illegalise these? If you are consistently taking leave because you puke your guts out every week from eating spoiled food, that wouldn't be much of an excuse for paid leave. I find the same is true for those who choose not to vaccinate. I do not find that to be a reasonable risk profile to accommodate in a consequence-free manner.
  - Clubber 5y ago
    >Anywhere where an ICU bed is taken by an unvaxxed COVID patient is a bed that was available for anyone else for any other reason. They typically don't put COVID patients in the same vicinity as other patients for obvious reasons. There's usually a dedicated COVID wing.
  - goostavos 5y ago
    Is that actually a compelling argument? How is an individual's choice which led to them occupying an ICU as a COVID patient worse than any other of their (presumably very dumb) individual choices? If we get to pick what we get to shame ICU bed occupancy for, I've got a LOT of other ideas that people probably won't like. By definition, society is made of up lots of interactions which prevent others from enjoying themselves. I struggle to understand why the line gets drawn at COVID.
- bern4444 5y ago
  > Getting a vaccine to cross an international border is not the same as getting a vaccine to walk to a bar on your own street in your own country. In NY it's trivial to get this vaccine. Getting it is certainly easier than getting any other government id (state id, permit, driver's license etc). Certainly ID is needed to purchase alcohol, drive a car, etc. Maybe not at a bar, but often for purchasing alcohol from a liquor or wine store. > Besides, people who have not had the Covid vaccine are not directly preventing anyone from enjoying life. Of course they are. They're taking up space in hospitals, endangering public health, and causing unnecessary harm by spreading covid and increasing the risk of a new variant.
  - analyte123 5y ago
    As long as one is viewing humans solely as harmful disease vectors, obese people also take up substantial space in hospitals and cause further obesity through social contagion. However, we don't mandate that restaurants prohibit serving sugary drinks to those with BMI over 30. People with various STIs also do everything in your list, but that is addressed through awareness of safer practices, in some cases voluntary vaccination and PrEP, and research into better treatments, not through banning extramarital sex or shutting down locations where people meet for sexual activity. People who participate in injury-prone sports and activities also take up disproportionate hospital space, but the US passed the ACA in part to require medical coverage for people regardless of their lifestyle. The reasoning for restricting behavior based on people's Covid risk (including vaccination status) is exactly the same as in the scenarios above. People vaccinated against Covid can choose today to live a normal life, confident in the vaccine's protection against their serious illness or hospitalization, without scapegoating those not vaccinated for the entirely predictable seasonal and variant spread of Covid, or forcing struggling small businesses to hire bouncers to check the medical papers of every customer.
- AndrewBissell 5y ago
  Just gonna repost something I saw on Twitter that summarizes this perfectly: government: take these shots or you'll never get your lives back person who keeps up with the news: how DARE the people who won't take their shots hold us hostage like this! https://twitter.com/gnocchiwizard/status/1419721365276475394 https://twitter.com/gnocchiwizard/status/1419721365276475394
  - bern4444 5y ago
    Classic slippery slope fallacy. Just cause we allow something now doesn't mean we allow it always or are in favor of the general principle. Put up at least a half honest response to contribute to the discussion
Alex3917 5y ago
> Super easy to get from a city/state website after entering a few details (think name, when your last vaccine was, which vaccine etc). Only available to those who got vaccinated in New York. And given that the NYC border is all of a couple hundred yards from New Jersey and 10 miles from Connecticut, there are tons of people who either live in the city and got vaccinated elsewhere, or else who live elsewhere but are in the city on a daily basis.
- bern4444 5y ago
  This is about a restriction NY is imposing on New Yorkers. The city and state I'm sure would welcome cooperation with other nearby states in developing a tri state area valid digital vaccine card. But this isn't about other cities and states so this isn't relevant. States, just like countries, are allowed to impose their own laws so long as they don't encroach on rights and laws from the federal government. Comity is a legal standard that neighboring states can choose to embrace.
  - Alex3917 5y ago
    > This is about a restriction NY is imposing on New Yorkers. So you're saying that since I live in Connecticut, I'm allowed to eat indoors in NYC without showing proof of vaccination? I realize that this is literally what the article says, but surely that must be a mistake, no?
    - bern4444 5y ago
      No, if you want to come to NY and eat at a NY restaurant you're subject to NY laws just like you are when you pay the NY sales tax rate. You don't pay the CT sales tax at a NY restaurant. Vaccine card or leave. If CT wants to work with NY to create a comity law understanding or a common vaccine card (IE accept CT digital vaccine cards) the states can work together.
    - jbeam 5y ago
      You must show proof of vaccination, but proof of vaccination is not required to be presented via the Excelsior Pass. It would be nice if we had tri-state cooperation there though.
kian 5y ago
In response to 'but its literally no different than having to get a vaccine to travel to certain countries', we literally (as in have a literal - written word - constitution) that explicitly prohibits the prevention of movement between the states in the same way that we do between countries. There is a quite literal, and federally-mandated, difference. You literally aren't even allowed to ask for someone's ID to cross internal US borders - but you think medical records, which contain just as much (if not more) personally-identifying information would be okay? "Show me your papers, please."
- tootie 5y ago
  Think of it more like a drivers license. Proof that you have passed a written test, driving test and an eye exam. Includes your full name, home address, photo and DOB. The Excelsior Pass has less info than that. And will only be required for entering private property from which people can already be barred entry for arbitrary reasons.
  - kian 5y ago
    Again - you cannot require a driver's license to cross state lines. Precisely because you cannot be required to present that information in order to move about freely. As long as you aren't the person driving ;) I understand that this is not inter-state travel, but at the same time you cannot be required to provide your identification by law enforcement or others without cause within them. It is not illegal to walk about without documentation as to who you are. You aren't even required to show identification to walk into a tobacco or liquor store - only to purchase. Certain government buildings, bars, clubs, and smoking lounges are the only exceptions I know of to this rule. There is no compelling reason to expand that list, nor the information they are allowed to request.
    - bern4444 5y ago
      You won't need to show a vaccine card to cross state lines, only to go out to eat. Of course its okay to walk around without an ID, no one suggests otherwise. But if you go to a restaurant without an ID, and get carded you can't order your drink. Is the restaurant obligated to serve you then? Absolutely not. You can enter the state without a vaccine card, you just won't be able to enjoy eating out in all the incredible restaurants in the state.
damontal 5y ago
>Vaccination in NY/NYC is easily proven. Picture of your vaccine card is sufficent That’s easily faked. To prove vaccination, a picture of a card is not sufficient. If that’s all that’s required as proof then this won’t accomplish anything meaningful.
- swader999 5y ago
  That's exactly the problem. This will be linked to a central authority that then will be able to record all you travel and activity. Able to turn it off and geo-fence you. Social Credit system for the west.
- bern4444 5y ago
  Perhaps, but so far this isn't a problem. Let's stay focused on the actual problems that we're facing. Maybe some businesses as you suggest will refuse a picture and only accept the physical card. So far this may be up to businesses to decide for themselves. This is otherwise whataboutism about an issue that isn't an issue. FWIW, the excelsior pass may be far harder to fake and end up being a solution to this currently non-problem

analyte123 5y ago

Getting a vaccine to cross an international border is not the same as getting a vaccine to walk to a bar on your own street in your own country. Besides, people who have not had the Covid vaccine are not directly preventing anyone from enjoying life. The people are either choosing to not enjoy life themselves, or their government is putting restrictions on them (and then they are obeying them) while blaming the restrictions on non-vaccinated people.

Daishiman 5y ago
Anywhere where an ICU bed is taken by an unvaxxed COVID patient is a bed that was available for anyone else for any other reason. Anwhere where unvaxxed people have to take time out because they're sick is time they could have spent working, contributing towards their families or communities, and someone is going to have to take up the work. So not, at a collective level, unvaccinated people are _very much_ preventing others from enjoying themselves.
- h_anna_h 5y ago
  Don't put unvaxxed and these who were injured/became ill due to their own incompetence or recklessness in an ICU bed then? (as long as they are full that is) > and someone is going to have to take up the work. There is a lot of unemployment. This is also true for the paid and unpaid leaves btw, should we illegalise these?
  - Daishiman 5y ago
    > There is a lot of unemployment. This is also true for the paid and unpaid leaves btw, should we illegalise these? If you are consistently taking leave because you puke your guts out every week from eating spoiled food, that wouldn't be much of an excuse for paid leave. I find the same is true for those who choose not to vaccinate. I do not find that to be a reasonable risk profile to accommodate in a consequence-free manner.
- Clubber 5y ago
  >Anywhere where an ICU bed is taken by an unvaxxed COVID patient is a bed that was available for anyone else for any other reason. They typically don't put COVID patients in the same vicinity as other patients for obvious reasons. There's usually a dedicated COVID wing.
- goostavos 5y ago
  Is that actually a compelling argument? How is an individual's choice which led to them occupying an ICU as a COVID patient worse than any other of their (presumably very dumb) individual choices? If we get to pick what we get to shame ICU bed occupancy for, I've got a LOT of other ideas that people probably won't like. By definition, society is made of up lots of interactions which prevent others from enjoying themselves. I struggle to understand why the line gets drawn at COVID.
bern4444 5y ago
> Getting a vaccine to cross an international border is not the same as getting a vaccine to walk to a bar on your own street in your own country. In NY it's trivial to get this vaccine. Getting it is certainly easier than getting any other government id (state id, permit, driver's license etc). Certainly ID is needed to purchase alcohol, drive a car, etc. Maybe not at a bar, but often for purchasing alcohol from a liquor or wine store. > Besides, people who have not had the Covid vaccine are not directly preventing anyone from enjoying life. Of course they are. They're taking up space in hospitals, endangering public health, and causing unnecessary harm by spreading covid and increasing the risk of a new variant.
- analyte123 5y ago
  As long as one is viewing humans solely as harmful disease vectors, obese people also take up substantial space in hospitals and cause further obesity through social contagion. However, we don't mandate that restaurants prohibit serving sugary drinks to those with BMI over 30. People with various STIs also do everything in your list, but that is addressed through awareness of safer practices, in some cases voluntary vaccination and PrEP, and research into better treatments, not through banning extramarital sex or shutting down locations where people meet for sexual activity. People who participate in injury-prone sports and activities also take up disproportionate hospital space, but the US passed the ACA in part to require medical coverage for people regardless of their lifestyle. The reasoning for restricting behavior based on people's Covid risk (including vaccination status) is exactly the same as in the scenarios above. People vaccinated against Covid can choose today to live a normal life, confident in the vaccine's protection against their serious illness or hospitalization, without scapegoating those not vaccinated for the entirely predictable seasonal and variant spread of Covid, or forcing struggling small businesses to hire bouncers to check the medical papers of every customer.
AndrewBissell 5y ago
Just gonna repost something I saw on Twitter that summarizes this perfectly: government: take these shots or you'll never get your lives back person who keeps up with the news: how DARE the people who won't take their shots hold us hostage like this! https://twitter.com/gnocchiwizard/status/1419721365276475394 https://twitter.com/gnocchiwizard/status/1419721365276475394
- bern4444 5y ago
  Classic slippery slope fallacy. Just cause we allow something now doesn't mean we allow it always or are in favor of the general principle. Put up at least a half honest response to contribute to the discussion

Alex3917 5y ago

> Super easy to get from a city/state website after entering a few details (think name, when your last vaccine was, which vaccine etc). Only available to those who got vaccinated in New York. And given that the NYC border is all of a couple hundred yards from New Jersey and 10 miles from Connecticut, there are tons of people who either live in the city and got vaccinated elsewhere, or else who live elsewhere but are in the city on a daily basis.

bern4444 5y ago
This is about a restriction NY is imposing on New Yorkers. The city and state I'm sure would welcome cooperation with other nearby states in developing a tri state area valid digital vaccine card. But this isn't about other cities and states so this isn't relevant. States, just like countries, are allowed to impose their own laws so long as they don't encroach on rights and laws from the federal government. Comity is a legal standard that neighboring states can choose to embrace.
- Alex3917 5y ago
  > This is about a restriction NY is imposing on New Yorkers. So you're saying that since I live in Connecticut, I'm allowed to eat indoors in NYC without showing proof of vaccination? I realize that this is literally what the article says, but surely that must be a mistake, no?
  - bern4444 5y ago
    No, if you want to come to NY and eat at a NY restaurant you're subject to NY laws just like you are when you pay the NY sales tax rate. You don't pay the CT sales tax at a NY restaurant. Vaccine card or leave. If CT wants to work with NY to create a comity law understanding or a common vaccine card (IE accept CT digital vaccine cards) the states can work together.
  - jbeam 5y ago
    You must show proof of vaccination, but proof of vaccination is not required to be presented via the Excelsior Pass. It would be nice if we had tri-state cooperation there though.

kian 5y ago

In response to 'but its literally no different than having to get a vaccine to travel to certain countries', we literally (as in have a literal - written word - constitution) that explicitly prohibits the prevention of movement between the states in the same way that we do between countries. There is a quite literal, and federally-mandated, difference. You literally aren't even allowed to ask for someone's ID to cross internal US borders - but you think medical records, which contain just as much (if not more) personally-identifying information would be okay? "Show me your papers, please."

tootie 5y ago
Think of it more like a drivers license. Proof that you have passed a written test, driving test and an eye exam. Includes your full name, home address, photo and DOB. The Excelsior Pass has less info than that. And will only be required for entering private property from which people can already be barred entry for arbitrary reasons.
- kian 5y ago
  Again - you cannot require a driver's license to cross state lines. Precisely because you cannot be required to present that information in order to move about freely. As long as you aren't the person driving ;) I understand that this is not inter-state travel, but at the same time you cannot be required to provide your identification by law enforcement or others without cause within them. It is not illegal to walk about without documentation as to who you are. You aren't even required to show identification to walk into a tobacco or liquor store - only to purchase. Certain government buildings, bars, clubs, and smoking lounges are the only exceptions I know of to this rule. There is no compelling reason to expand that list, nor the information they are allowed to request.
  - bern4444 5y ago
    You won't need to show a vaccine card to cross state lines, only to go out to eat. Of course its okay to walk around without an ID, no one suggests otherwise. But if you go to a restaurant without an ID, and get carded you can't order your drink. Is the restaurant obligated to serve you then? Absolutely not. You can enter the state without a vaccine card, you just won't be able to enjoy eating out in all the incredible restaurants in the state.

damontal 5y ago

>Vaccination in NY/NYC is easily proven. Picture of your vaccine card is sufficent That’s easily faked. To prove vaccination, a picture of a card is not sufficient. If that’s all that’s required as proof then this won’t accomplish anything meaningful.

swader999 5y ago
That's exactly the problem. This will be linked to a central authority that then will be able to record all you travel and activity. Able to turn it off and geo-fence you. Social Credit system for the west.
bern4444 5y ago
Perhaps, but so far this isn't a problem. Let's stay focused on the actual problems that we're facing. Maybe some businesses as you suggest will refuse a picture and only accept the physical card. So far this may be up to businesses to decide for themselves. This is otherwise whataboutism about an issue that isn't an issue. FWIW, the excelsior pass may be far harder to fake and end up being a solution to this currently non-problem