8 ms·

CIA’s fake Hepatitis B vaccine program in Pakistan helped fuel vaccine distrust

192 points by cunidev 5y ago

dogma1138 5y ago
I think it’s quite important to note that the CIA didn’t run a “fake vaccination” campaign, the vaccines were very much real. It compromised existing vaccination programs and used them to collect intelligence. They didn’t inject water into kids, it compromised the trust in the program sure but there is no need to make it sound even worse than it is.
- howaboutnope 5y ago
  Well, it was a front for something else. "Fake" in that sentence belongs to "program", not to "vaccine".
  - yodelshady 5y ago
    With sympathies, that's not your counterparties' problem. You're not entitled to a good-faith interpretation of your arguments online, and when you're accusing others of acting in bad faith, you really aren't. Expecting everyone to know "what you mean", especially as a journalist whose literal skillset is writing, is poor.
    - howaboutnope 5y ago
      > You're not entitled to a good-faith interpretation of your arguments online, and when you're accusing others of acting in bad faith, you really aren't. So if someone says something critical of you, in your mind it makes more sense to be sloppy and self-serving about your interpretation of what they said, than if they say something nice? That's your outlook, and I don't share it. And that's ignoring the weird implication of that poster identifying with the CIA and me with whoever wrote the title, which I don't quite follow either.
- orwin 5y ago
  > it compromised the trust in the program sure but there is no need to make it sound even worse than it is. But this is worse than just that. This is an example of "post-truth", those kind of thing make people think "okay, the anti-vax side is lying, but the pro-vax side is lying too". It is because of this kind of comportment that so antivax tell themselves (and others when they are caught) "Okay, i'm lying, but i believe in the cause, i'm sure i'm right, and well, i have to lie to match my opponents, cause the truth takes the stairs, and lies the lift". I'm taking Vax and anti-vax here, but you can make the same argument for less dangerous "truthers".
  - loopz 5y ago
    Anything can be used to justify your own biases to shift responsibility unto others (blame game). That's a personal responsibility to clear up, not someone else's. If one cannot function in an imperfect society, that only hurts oneself in the end.
    - roenxi 5y ago
      You're in the shadow of an article about the US government running a vaccination program as the precursor to a violent massacre/assassination/kidnapping escapade that could theoretically trigger a war (although the Pakistanis are realpolitik savvy enough just to lie down and take it). Vaccine programs have some unexpected risks to them. It might make a country question the US's involvement in a vaccine rollout.
      - arghwhat 5y ago
        Seems silly to make this into vaccination distrust when it should be government distrust. They can get DNA from any charitable mission that gives moments of physical contact. They would have had to add extra steps to the vaccination process to get a good sample anyway.
        roenxi 5y ago
        Topical example, people claiming that "well it could have come from a lab" were effectively bucketed with people who said "this is a communist bioweapon!". It happens, but is relatively rare, that scepticism of a COVID vaccine is allowed to stand on its own in an internet discussion. Being distrustful of the government can literally get people attacked as though they wanted to inject themselves with bleach. Pointing out that the government is untrustworthy and suggesting maybe we should move slowly will get people hit with being anti-science. Facts or free choice be damned.
- raxxorrax 5y ago
  Taking DNA samples under the cover of healtcare is pretty bad.
- williamtwild 5y ago
  Why are titles like this allowed on HN?
- Miner49er 5y ago
  Where do you see this? I'm trying to find a source, and many articles (even from years ago) are calling it a "fake vaccination program", and none mention that the vaccines were real. Edit: I've done some more research, and it does seem the vaccines were real, but they only administered 1 of 3 doses before moving out of the original poor neighborhood they started in. They then moved to a richer neighborhood more near Osama bin Laden, and I'm not sure how many doses were administered there (maybe none? other then maybe some in Osama bin Laden's compound). Either way, I think you're also being slightly dishonest here. It was real vaccines, but only 1 of 3 doses, so probably not very effective. https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2011/07/cias-fake-vaccination-drive-angers-public-health-world https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2011/07/cias-fake-vaccinatio...
- mannerheim 5y ago
  They may as well have been fake. It was a three dose vaccine, and only one dose was ever administered.
- idunnoman 5y ago
  From a different article: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/jul/11/cia-fake-vaccinations-osama-bin-ladens-dna https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/jul/11/cia-fake-vacci... > In March health workers administered the vaccine in a poor neighbourhood on the edge of Abbottabad called Nawa Sher. The hepatitis B vaccine is usually given in three doses, the second a month after the first. But in April, instead of administering the second dose in Nawa Sher, the doctor returned to Abbottabad and moved the nurses on to Bilal Town, the suburb where Bin Laden lived. I don't know if this changes anything. It feels closer to fake from where I'm standing. I'm pro vax. Playing fast and loose with public health makes me feel fairly odd.
- hintymad 5y ago
  I have a naive question: why would CIA interfere other countries? Why can't the US just leave other countries alone and mind our own business? I can imagine that some people and some entities would want to mess up with the world, but why would American people support such activities?
  - stjohnswarts 5y ago
    It is naive. Countries are always, --always-- spying on each other and interfering. Look at how much China, England, France, Iran, and Russia interfere with other countries if you're actually trying to be fair. It's not just the CIA, it is the way of the world and will always be that way unless somehow a world government is in place or human nature evolves to actually trust other humans.
    - bllguo 5y ago
      do point out how any of those countries have "interfered" externally compared to the American track record. We maintain an unprecedented network of military bases throughout the world. We destabilized South America, the Middle East, and Asia. Even the worst offender in your list, Russia, does not compare. Putting Iran and China in there is laughable, frankly.
    - hintymad 5y ago
      I can understand spying, but I don't understand interference, as in toppling another regime, or as in invading another country like Iraq in the name of democracy. The latter looks pure evil to me.
  - CapricornNoble 5y ago
    >>>why would CIA interfere other countries? Why can't the US just leave other countries alone and mind our own business? Because our entire economic system is built on dominating international finance via the PetroDollar. Countries are starting to wise up to how this is a raw deal for them and want to explore other arrangements. The US will fight that tooth and nail, by every means available. The death of the PetroDollar will likely bring the death of American hegemony and Pax Americana, and include a crippling economic crisis for the US with the expected quality of life impacts on the citizens as well. https://www.investopedia.com/articles/forex/072915/how-petrodollars-affect-us-dollar.asp https://www.investopedia.com/articles/forex/072915/how-petro... https://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2016/01/06/new-hillary-emails-reveal-true-motive-for-libya-intervention/ https://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2016/01/06/new-hillary-... https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/36733213.pdf https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/36733213.pdf <-about the Iranian oil bourse
cup 5y ago
Reminds me of the documentary Cold Case Hammarskjold where they discover the apartheid era South African government had set up fake medical clinics to infect (Black) Africans with HIV.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- toolslive 5y ago
  or the introduction of "nonlethal agents" in an attempt to create widespread addiction among the black population. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Coast https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Coast
- graeme 5y ago
  The vaccines were real in this case though. The CIA used the program to gather intelligence but they weren’t distributing disease.
  - idunnoman 5y ago
    I linked this in another parent: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/jul/11/cia-fake-vaccinations-osama-bin-ladens-dna https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/jul/11/cia-fake-vacci... > In March health workers administered the vaccine in a poor neighbourhood on the edge of Abbottabad called Nawa Sher. The hepatitis B vaccine is usually given in three doses, the second a month after the first. But in April, instead of administering the second dose in Nawa Sher, the doctor returned to Abbottabad and moved the nurses on to Bilal Town, the suburb where Bin Laden lived. I don't know if that changes anything. It does appear that they didn't "effectively" vaccinate people when it was convenient.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
ChemSpider 5y ago
This article is from Feb 1, 2021! I understand some hesitancy at this time, as everything was brand new. I am sure the person interviewed in this article is vaccinated meanwhile.
- encryptluks2 5y ago
  The difference between Feb 1, 2021 and August 3, 2021 is not that much when it comes to something being new in the medical world.
  - ChemSpider 5y ago
    The difference between Feb and Aug is 500 million(!) vaccinated people. This is huge by any margin.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
robert_foss 5y ago
Gee whiz, thanks America.
swarnie_ 5y ago
From the FBI's own definition: International terrorism : Violent, criminal acts committed by individuals and/or groups who are inspired by, or associated with, designated foreign terrorist organizations or nations (state-sponsored). Struggling to see how the CIA isn't a terrorist organisation at this point.
- nicoburns 5y ago
  The common definition of terrorism conveniently explicitly excludes governmental activity.
  - jjgreen 5y ago
    I wonder who thought that up?
- Joker_vD 5y ago
  Because it's not designated as one, duh.
  - swarnie_ 5y ago
    Someone should really look in to that....
- okamiueru 5y ago
  The whole history of the US is filled with terrorist activities and violation of human rights. It has overthrown more governments, killed more who politically opposed. The only reason why the US has the slightest thread of anything resembling credibility in the international space, is convenient willful ("diplomatic") ignorance. Almost every major instability and geopolitical conflict can be traced directly to US involvement and/or weapon deals. That isn't to say that our world would be rocey without it. Just that, it is the way it is, and pretending otherwise would be puzzling. It's not a secret. Here is a very small part of it: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_interventions_by_the_United_States https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_interventions_by_the...
BiteCode_dev 5y ago
The Ethiopian in Israel being injected with contraceptive without consent, while not a vaccine in itself, didn't help either: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/feb/28/ethiopian-women-given-contraceptives-israel https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/feb/28/ethiopian-wome... The COVID crisis is as much a trust crisis than a health crisis. The internet made the people deeply aware of how little the people in power actually cares about the average citizen or customer, and now that we really, really need the mass to have confidence in the institutions, it's getting hard to play the "for real, we are good this times guys" card.
- blacktriangle 5y ago
  Given all you know about how unworthy of trust these institutions are now, why do you think this time is any different?
  - BiteCode_dev 5y ago
    I don't know, and I weight the odds and wage a bet given the various sources of information I have and my knowledge of human nature. Unlike most of my vaccine enthusiast friends, I don't blame people that want to avoid it, I get the sentiment. I'm not thrilled at the idea of getting the shot despite being a strong vaccine proponent, but I have made the appointment. Maybe it will turn out to be the wrong decision, however I took it with the best of my knowledge and abilities. And that's all what we can do.
    - dennis_jeeves 5y ago
      >I'm not thrilled at the idea of getting the shot despite being a strong vaccine proponent, How did you become a strong proponent in the first place?
    - forcry 5y ago
      >I took it with the best of my knowledge and abilities. You would be really surprised at how much of one's knowledge sits on assumptions and believes that are not well founded. It is like how grownups are sometimes stumped by the questions of a curious kid, which make it clear that somethings they thought they knew, wasn't so. This was my experience, and like most people, I used to trust authorities and scientists, and "studies". This is the position where we all start, and diverge from it as we become more aware about the politics involved and how the incentives are aligned, how powerful media, how research is funded and can be flawed, how peer review "appear to work" when in-fact it does not in practice etc, all of which are further confirmed by historical observations.
CiaTransMatters 5y ago
The CIA is an exemplary institution who has always tirelessly served the needs of those who have suffered from the worldwide pandemic of transphobia. No other enlightened people have done more to make sure trans rights are recognized by bigoted nationalists and hard-headed indigenous cultures than the CIA. Every time they overthrow a Middle Eastern nation, a thousand beautiful trans activists bloom. Don't fall for the misinformation. Pakistan is rife with transphobia and the CIA is working tirelessly to put an end to that. Be on the right side of history, HN.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
sschueller 5y ago
Is there anything the CIA has done in its history that was good for the United States? It seems this agency is doing far more harm to the United States than to protect it. It seems like an agency of lawless lunatics that are accountable to no one thinking they are doing something good but causing enormous damage.
- CheezeIt 5y ago
  I actually like Jackson Pollock’s art. That’s all I can think of.
bingohbangoh 5y ago
People also wonder how african americans can be so hesitant to take the vaccines here in the US when every school kid learns about the Tuskegee Syphilis Study...
- Redoubts 5y ago
  Every school kid is absolutely not taught this.
  - atatatat 5y ago
    Many black ones are...school or otherwise.
  - stjohnswarts 5y ago
    In public school they are taught this. Maybe not is some private schools I suppose. It's part of the standard curriculum
    - Redoubts 5y ago
      > In public school they are taught this. Very much not true in general
- PoignardAzur 5y ago
  I get that the Tuskegee study is a huge influence on vaccine hesitancy, but I think its impact is emotional, not rational. If you look at the fact, the big controversy was that the study participants were given zero treatment, while their doctors were telling them at they were being treated. At the time the study began, this was barely reasonable, because there were some strong indication that syphilis treatments caused more harm than good and the doctors wanted to measure it. Ten years later, when penicilin had been long confirmed to be effective against syphillis, this was beyond monstrous. But still, I don't think this is a reasonable argument against vaccination. The black people in the experiments weren't being injected mystery substances. The core of the scandals is that they were given placebos without their consent. I don't see how one could reasonably look at this and say "Okay, I'm never going to accept a vaccine ever". You're basically forcing yourself into the same experiment the government put these people in.
ridiculous_leke 5y ago
One reason why you shouldn't host foreign intelligence agencies in turn for money.
npteljes 5y ago
Misleading to call it a "fake vaccination program", it's rather a "covert DNA collection program".
- Dma54rhs 5y ago
  Only 1 out of necessary 3 jabs was administered. Hence it was fake, the purpose was not getting people protected + secret operation, but just to collect intelligence. It's like calling Tuskegee operation good because some African Americans later got a bit medical help and maybe even compensated.
  - npteljes 5y ago
    I see, thanks, I missed this detail.
mensetmanusman 5y ago
Talk about unintended consequences of 9/11.
CiaTransMatters 5y ago
My comment was flagged, so I'll have to post it again. I can't believe how many bigoted posters exist on HN. The CIA is an exemplary institution who has always tirelessly served the needs of those who have suffered from the worldwide pandemic of transphobia. No other enlightened people have done more to make sure trans rights are recognized by bigoted nationalists and hard-headed indigenous cultures than the CIA. Every time they overthrow a Middle Eastern nation, a thousand beautiful trans activists bloom. Don't fall for the misinformation. Pakistan is rife with transphobia and the CIA is working tirelessly to put an end to that. Be on the right side of history, HN.

192 points by cunidev 5y ago

I think it’s quite important to note that the CIA didn’t run a “fake vaccination” campaign, the vaccines were very much real. It compromised existing vaccination programs and used them to collect intelligence. They didn’t inject water into kids, it compromised the trust in the program sure but there is no need to make it sound even worse than it is.

howaboutnope 5y ago
Well, it was a front for something else. "Fake" in that sentence belongs to "program", not to "vaccine".
- yodelshady 5y ago
  With sympathies, that's not your counterparties' problem. You're not entitled to a good-faith interpretation of your arguments online, and when you're accusing others of acting in bad faith, you really aren't. Expecting everyone to know "what you mean", especially as a journalist whose literal skillset is writing, is poor.
  - howaboutnope 5y ago
    > You're not entitled to a good-faith interpretation of your arguments online, and when you're accusing others of acting in bad faith, you really aren't. So if someone says something critical of you, in your mind it makes more sense to be sloppy and self-serving about your interpretation of what they said, than if they say something nice? That's your outlook, and I don't share it. And that's ignoring the weird implication of that poster identifying with the CIA and me with whoever wrote the title, which I don't quite follow either.
orwin 5y ago
> it compromised the trust in the program sure but there is no need to make it sound even worse than it is. But this is worse than just that. This is an example of "post-truth", those kind of thing make people think "okay, the anti-vax side is lying, but the pro-vax side is lying too". It is because of this kind of comportment that so antivax tell themselves (and others when they are caught) "Okay, i'm lying, but i believe in the cause, i'm sure i'm right, and well, i have to lie to match my opponents, cause the truth takes the stairs, and lies the lift". I'm taking Vax and anti-vax here, but you can make the same argument for less dangerous "truthers".
- loopz 5y ago
  Anything can be used to justify your own biases to shift responsibility unto others (blame game). That's a personal responsibility to clear up, not someone else's. If one cannot function in an imperfect society, that only hurts oneself in the end.
  - roenxi 5y ago
    You're in the shadow of an article about the US government running a vaccination program as the precursor to a violent massacre/assassination/kidnapping escapade that could theoretically trigger a war (although the Pakistanis are realpolitik savvy enough just to lie down and take it). Vaccine programs have some unexpected risks to them. It might make a country question the US's involvement in a vaccine rollout.
    - arghwhat 5y ago
      Seems silly to make this into vaccination distrust when it should be government distrust. They can get DNA from any charitable mission that gives moments of physical contact. They would have had to add extra steps to the vaccination process to get a good sample anyway.
      - roenxi 5y ago
        Topical example, people claiming that "well it could have come from a lab" were effectively bucketed with people who said "this is a communist bioweapon!". It happens, but is relatively rare, that scepticism of a COVID vaccine is allowed to stand on its own in an internet discussion. Being distrustful of the government can literally get people attacked as though they wanted to inject themselves with bleach. Pointing out that the government is untrustworthy and suggesting maybe we should move slowly will get people hit with being anti-science. Facts or free choice be damned.
raxxorrax 5y ago
Taking DNA samples under the cover of healtcare is pretty bad.
williamtwild 5y ago
Why are titles like this allowed on HN?
Miner49er 5y ago
Where do you see this? I'm trying to find a source, and many articles (even from years ago) are calling it a "fake vaccination program", and none mention that the vaccines were real. Edit: I've done some more research, and it does seem the vaccines were real, but they only administered 1 of 3 doses before moving out of the original poor neighborhood they started in. They then moved to a richer neighborhood more near Osama bin Laden, and I'm not sure how many doses were administered there (maybe none? other then maybe some in Osama bin Laden's compound). Either way, I think you're also being slightly dishonest here. It was real vaccines, but only 1 of 3 doses, so probably not very effective. https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2011/07/cias-fake-vaccination-drive-angers-public-health-world https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2011/07/cias-fake-vaccinatio...
mannerheim 5y ago
They may as well have been fake. It was a three dose vaccine, and only one dose was ever administered.
idunnoman 5y ago
From a different article: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/jul/11/cia-fake-vaccinations-osama-bin-ladens-dna https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/jul/11/cia-fake-vacci... > In March health workers administered the vaccine in a poor neighbourhood on the edge of Abbottabad called Nawa Sher. The hepatitis B vaccine is usually given in three doses, the second a month after the first. But in April, instead of administering the second dose in Nawa Sher, the doctor returned to Abbottabad and moved the nurses on to Bilal Town, the suburb where Bin Laden lived. I don't know if this changes anything. It feels closer to fake from where I'm standing. I'm pro vax. Playing fast and loose with public health makes me feel fairly odd.
hintymad 5y ago
I have a naive question: why would CIA interfere other countries? Why can't the US just leave other countries alone and mind our own business? I can imagine that some people and some entities would want to mess up with the world, but why would American people support such activities?
- stjohnswarts 5y ago
  It is naive. Countries are always, --always-- spying on each other and interfering. Look at how much China, England, France, Iran, and Russia interfere with other countries if you're actually trying to be fair. It's not just the CIA, it is the way of the world and will always be that way unless somehow a world government is in place or human nature evolves to actually trust other humans.
  - bllguo 5y ago
    do point out how any of those countries have "interfered" externally compared to the American track record. We maintain an unprecedented network of military bases throughout the world. We destabilized South America, the Middle East, and Asia. Even the worst offender in your list, Russia, does not compare. Putting Iran and China in there is laughable, frankly.
  - hintymad 5y ago
    I can understand spying, but I don't understand interference, as in toppling another regime, or as in invading another country like Iraq in the name of democracy. The latter looks pure evil to me.
- CapricornNoble 5y ago
  >>>why would CIA interfere other countries? Why can't the US just leave other countries alone and mind our own business? Because our entire economic system is built on dominating international finance via the PetroDollar. Countries are starting to wise up to how this is a raw deal for them and want to explore other arrangements. The US will fight that tooth and nail, by every means available. The death of the PetroDollar will likely bring the death of American hegemony and Pax Americana, and include a crippling economic crisis for the US with the expected quality of life impacts on the citizens as well. https://www.investopedia.com/articles/forex/072915/how-petrodollars-affect-us-dollar.asp https://www.investopedia.com/articles/forex/072915/how-petro... https://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2016/01/06/new-hillary-emails-reveal-true-motive-for-libya-intervention/ https://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2016/01/06/new-hillary-... https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/36733213.pdf https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/36733213.pdf <-about the Iranian oil bourse

cup 5y ago

Reminds me of the documentary Cold Case Hammarskjold where they discover the apartheid era South African government had set up fake medical clinics to infect (Black) Africans with HIV.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
toolslive 5y ago
or the introduction of "nonlethal agents" in an attempt to create widespread addiction among the black population. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Coast https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Coast
graeme 5y ago
The vaccines were real in this case though. The CIA used the program to gather intelligence but they weren’t distributing disease.
- idunnoman 5y ago
  I linked this in another parent: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/jul/11/cia-fake-vaccinations-osama-bin-ladens-dna https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/jul/11/cia-fake-vacci... > In March health workers administered the vaccine in a poor neighbourhood on the edge of Abbottabad called Nawa Sher. The hepatitis B vaccine is usually given in three doses, the second a month after the first. But in April, instead of administering the second dose in Nawa Sher, the doctor returned to Abbottabad and moved the nurses on to Bilal Town, the suburb where Bin Laden lived. I don't know if that changes anything. It does appear that they didn't "effectively" vaccinate people when it was convenient.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

ChemSpider 5y ago

This article is from Feb 1, 2021! I understand some hesitancy at this time, as everything was brand new. I am sure the person interviewed in this article is vaccinated meanwhile.

encryptluks2 5y ago
The difference between Feb 1, 2021 and August 3, 2021 is not that much when it comes to something being new in the medical world.
- ChemSpider 5y ago
  The difference between Feb and Aug is 500 million(!) vaccinated people. This is huge by any margin.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

robert_foss 5y ago

Gee whiz, thanks America.

swarnie_ 5y ago

From the FBI's own definition: International terrorism : Violent, criminal acts committed by individuals and/or groups who are inspired by, or associated with, designated foreign terrorist organizations or nations (state-sponsored). Struggling to see how the CIA isn't a terrorist organisation at this point.

nicoburns 5y ago
The common definition of terrorism conveniently explicitly excludes governmental activity.
- jjgreen 5y ago
  I wonder who thought that up?
Joker_vD 5y ago
Because it's not designated as one, duh.
- swarnie_ 5y ago
  Someone should really look in to that....
okamiueru 5y ago
The whole history of the US is filled with terrorist activities and violation of human rights. It has overthrown more governments, killed more who politically opposed. The only reason why the US has the slightest thread of anything resembling credibility in the international space, is convenient willful ("diplomatic") ignorance. Almost every major instability and geopolitical conflict can be traced directly to US involvement and/or weapon deals. That isn't to say that our world would be rocey without it. Just that, it is the way it is, and pretending otherwise would be puzzling. It's not a secret. Here is a very small part of it: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_interventions_by_the_United_States https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_interventions_by_the...

BiteCode_dev 5y ago

The Ethiopian in Israel being injected with contraceptive without consent, while not a vaccine in itself, didn't help either: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/feb/28/ethiopian-women-given-contraceptives-israel https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/feb/28/ethiopian-wome... The COVID crisis is as much a trust crisis than a health crisis. The internet made the people deeply aware of how little the people in power actually cares about the average citizen or customer, and now that we really, really need the mass to have confidence in the institutions, it's getting hard to play the "for real, we are good this times guys" card.

blacktriangle 5y ago
Given all you know about how unworthy of trust these institutions are now, why do you think this time is any different?
- BiteCode_dev 5y ago
  I don't know, and I weight the odds and wage a bet given the various sources of information I have and my knowledge of human nature. Unlike most of my vaccine enthusiast friends, I don't blame people that want to avoid it, I get the sentiment. I'm not thrilled at the idea of getting the shot despite being a strong vaccine proponent, but I have made the appointment. Maybe it will turn out to be the wrong decision, however I took it with the best of my knowledge and abilities. And that's all what we can do.
  - dennis_jeeves 5y ago
    >I'm not thrilled at the idea of getting the shot despite being a strong vaccine proponent, How did you become a strong proponent in the first place?
  - forcry 5y ago
    >I took it with the best of my knowledge and abilities. You would be really surprised at how much of one's knowledge sits on assumptions and believes that are not well founded. It is like how grownups are sometimes stumped by the questions of a curious kid, which make it clear that somethings they thought they knew, wasn't so. This was my experience, and like most people, I used to trust authorities and scientists, and "studies". This is the position where we all start, and diverge from it as we become more aware about the politics involved and how the incentives are aligned, how powerful media, how research is funded and can be flawed, how peer review "appear to work" when in-fact it does not in practice etc, all of which are further confirmed by historical observations.

CiaTransMatters 5y ago

The CIA is an exemplary institution who has always tirelessly served the needs of those who have suffered from the worldwide pandemic of transphobia. No other enlightened people have done more to make sure trans rights are recognized by bigoted nationalists and hard-headed indigenous cultures than the CIA. Every time they overthrow a Middle Eastern nation, a thousand beautiful trans activists bloom. Don't fall for the misinformation. Pakistan is rife with transphobia and the CIA is working tirelessly to put an end to that. Be on the right side of history, HN.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

sschueller 5y ago

Is there anything the CIA has done in its history that was good for the United States? It seems this agency is doing far more harm to the United States than to protect it. It seems like an agency of lawless lunatics that are accountable to no one thinking they are doing something good but causing enormous damage.

CheezeIt 5y ago
I actually like Jackson Pollock’s art. That’s all I can think of.

bingohbangoh 5y ago

People also wonder how african americans can be so hesitant to take the vaccines here in the US when every school kid learns about the Tuskegee Syphilis Study...

Redoubts 5y ago
Every school kid is absolutely not taught this.
- atatatat 5y ago
  Many black ones are...school or otherwise.
- stjohnswarts 5y ago
  In public school they are taught this. Maybe not is some private schools I suppose. It's part of the standard curriculum
  - Redoubts 5y ago
    > In public school they are taught this. Very much not true in general
PoignardAzur 5y ago
I get that the Tuskegee study is a huge influence on vaccine hesitancy, but I think its impact is emotional, not rational. If you look at the fact, the big controversy was that the study participants were given zero treatment, while their doctors were telling them at they were being treated. At the time the study began, this was barely reasonable, because there were some strong indication that syphilis treatments caused more harm than good and the doctors wanted to measure it. Ten years later, when penicilin had been long confirmed to be effective against syphillis, this was beyond monstrous. But still, I don't think this is a reasonable argument against vaccination. The black people in the experiments weren't being injected mystery substances. The core of the scandals is that they were given placebos without their consent. I don't see how one could reasonably look at this and say "Okay, I'm never going to accept a vaccine ever". You're basically forcing yourself into the same experiment the government put these people in.

ridiculous_leke 5y ago

One reason why you shouldn't host foreign intelligence agencies in turn for money.

npteljes 5y ago

Misleading to call it a "fake vaccination program", it's rather a "covert DNA collection program".

Dma54rhs 5y ago
Only 1 out of necessary 3 jabs was administered. Hence it was fake, the purpose was not getting people protected + secret operation, but just to collect intelligence. It's like calling Tuskegee operation good because some African Americans later got a bit medical help and maybe even compensated.
- npteljes 5y ago
  I see, thanks, I missed this detail.

mensetmanusman 5y ago

Talk about unintended consequences of 9/11.

CiaTransMatters 5y ago

My comment was flagged, so I'll have to post it again. I can't believe how many bigoted posters exist on HN. The CIA is an exemplary institution who has always tirelessly served the needs of those who have suffered from the worldwide pandemic of transphobia. No other enlightened people have done more to make sure trans rights are recognized by bigoted nationalists and hard-headed indigenous cultures than the CIA. Every time they overthrow a Middle Eastern nation, a thousand beautiful trans activists bloom. Don't fall for the misinformation. Pakistan is rife with transphobia and the CIA is working tirelessly to put an end to that. Be on the right side of history, HN.