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Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal

419 points by graderjs 5y ago

l33tbro 5y ago
The genie might be out of the bottle here for them. A lot of investigative journalism now coming out (1) which shows that Pegasus is really just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to Israeli spyware. (1) https://www.mintpressnews.com/meet-toka-the-most-dangerous-israeli-spyware-firm-youve-never-heard-of/278020/ https://www.mintpressnews.com/meet-toka-the-most-dangerous-i...
- adav 5y ago
  That's a very questionable source. With such an overtly anti-Israel position, that's probably best taken with a large pinch of salt.
  - user-the-name 5y ago
    Yes, that site bears all the hallmarks of a misinformation front: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MintPress_News https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MintPress_News The author of the article also seems to be severely lacking in good judgement, since she seems to have appeared on the podcast of anti-vaxxer RFK Jr recently.
    - Ticklee 5y ago
      Wikipedia is also a misinformation front though, as far as all it does it consolidate media opinions on any given topic.
      - user-the-name 5y ago
        Come on, you know that's a bullshit response.
    - encryptluks2 5y ago
      It seems that many prominent Zionist are very friendly with alt-right and conservative types until it is convenient for them to play the antisemitism card and then suddenly they question their judgement.
  - l33tbro 5y ago
    Do you actually have counter-arguments to her findings here?
  - dpwm 5y ago
    Should we take the sometimes-overtly, other-times-covertly pro-Israel position of much of the western media with a similar pinch of salt?
    - keewee7 5y ago
      Opinions on Israel-Palestine seem to depend on generation. Boomer journalists are pro-Israel and millennial journalists seem to be pro-Palestinian. In the recent conflict NYT and WaPost were pro-Palestinian unlike the conflict in 2014 when they were neutral. In 2008/2009 they were openly pro-Israel.
  - dessant 5y ago
    I'm not familiar with the source, but can you give us a reason why one should be pro-Israel in this instance? I see nothing wrong with condemning the actions of the Israeli government, nor questioning why one of the prominent exports of the Israeli technology sector is surveillance. I keep being contacted several times a year by established Israeli companies to add spyware into my projects. A couple of weeks ago I was offered $5000 as a sign up bonus by Bright Data (formerly Luminati), before that a growth specialist from Similarweb contacted me to gather intelligence about how to aquire Firefox for Android extensions, it was so slimy I've reported the latter to Mozilla employees. I can't come up with a single country with such a disproportionate amount of shady companies specialized in online tracking and surveillance compared to the small population size.
    - noduerme 5y ago
      >> can you give us a reason why one should be pro-Israel in this instance? Because when it's done in the interest of preventing another holocaust, which is the entire reason for the existence of Israel, it's not the same as when the Chinese government does it to terrify and imprison minorities, or when Russia does it to destroy Putin's personal opponents. I too question their choice of who they licensed this tech to, but hopefully they got plenty of useful intel on those governments along the way.
      - disgu 5y ago
        How is that a reason? This stuff is always justified by claiming it ensures the safety of people. Another justification has never existed for any of these.
      - Cyph0n 5y ago
        How does selling spyware to authoritarian governments so that they can monitor activists and journalists “prevent another Holocaust”?
        noduerme 5y ago
        Presumably, the real interest of the Israeli government, to the extent it's involved, is in monitoring the people they sold the software to.
  - xvector 5y ago
    I cannot imagine how someone could possibly be pro-Israel in the specific context of cybercrime and cyberwarfare. They are literally enabling regimes to blackmail and murder innocent, good people. Also, please provide actual counterarguments.
    - user-the-name 5y ago
      Is it Israel, the state, that is doing that?
      - helge9210 5y ago
        Yes. Every sale is approved by at least to ministers.
        wizzwizz4 5y ago
        That's interesting. Do you have a source?
        kota2 5y ago
        Sure, there is many: https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/interactive/2021/nso-spyware-pegasus-cellphones/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/interactive/20... "The Israeli Defense Ministry must approve any license to a government that wants to buy it, according to previous NSO statements."
  - 3327 5y ago
    The source may be questionable, but very likely it is the TIP of the iceberg...
- emacsen 5y ago
  As others have mentioned, the source you're citing is at best highly questionable. The amount of leaps the article makes is just out of this world, mostly that this Israeli company has Israelis involved, and that Israelis who have experience with mathematics and computer work also serve their mandatory military service in an intelligence unit of the military rather than as foot soldiers and that an Israeli company has Israeli investors. Israel is a tiny country the size of New Jersey, the fact that there will be overlap of people and connections between them is always the case- there's nothing nefarious about it. Anyway, looking at the author's twitter gives one a good look into what this looks like if taken outside the context of Israel: https://twitter.com/_whitneywebb?lang=en https://twitter.com/_whitneywebb?lang=en She's an anti-vaxxer talking about how the "ruling class" of using COVID to gain control over the population, about hidden FBI assets, and a ton about how the anti-Defmation League, a group that collects data on antisemitism is really a massive spy network. If it weren't so scary that people believe in it, it might be funny. There's no reason to put any more credence in her
  - noduerme 5y ago
    The really scary part is that Q nuts like this are now running the Republican party, and they have no love for Israel. The second most egregious mistake Netanyahu made, after bowing to the settlers, was staking Israel's future on an alliance with the American right. Only the four people at Commentary Magazine believe there's still a non-crazy conservative movement in the US who wouldn't turn on Israel in a heartbeat... although they have a point that the progressives already have done so. The penning of this article really closes the circle of right/left conspiracy theory. If there's one thing all conspiracy theorists can agree on, it's the Jews. I think that's what you're seeing that's disturbing.
    - pasabagi 5y ago
      Mmm, I think at the end of the day, Israel is probably the only reliable strategic partner in a resource-rich region full of basketcases. At worst, they'll have to tone it down a bit. If the US ceases to back them, they can always find a new backer.
- toofy 5y ago
  I understand how messy the context surrounding this next point is but it’s worth considering. From what Ive been seeing over the past couple weeks, the article is probably correct in that pegasus is just the beginning of what we’re going to find out regarding how deep the rabbit hole goes with israeli malware firms, however mint press has a very long history of what may be questionable funding and there have been quite a lot of organizations who have done some pretty well researched investigating that implicates mint press in some pretty nasty propaganda. Again, I understand how complicated and messy this kind of thing can be, but if you at all value accuracy in your analysis, it would absolutely be worth looking at some of their history regarding incredibly questionable funding and very strange propaganda for certain regimes.
vmception 5y ago
Naftali Bennett‘s first real test. Would he actually know or have a way to find out why Macron secrets are being traded to Pegasus clients, or even reign in the spyware industry at all? Would the fragile coalition be able to handle this PM doing anything about it, or is this so far outside of their priority list that it doesn't matter and there is room for real reform?
- golergka 5y ago
  They have an easy out: blame it on Bibi and promise change.
  - google234123 5y ago
    It's also a fair out.
- peteretep 5y ago
  > Would he actually know or have a way to find out why Macron secrets are being traded to Pegasus clients, or even reign in the spyware industry at all? I don’t think this would pass muster as an excuse if Israeli industry had been selling missiles to Morocco for use against France. Curious to see if it ends up being treated the same.
  - dogma1138 5y ago
    France and Morocco have a very close relationship, this quite equivalent since spying isn’t treated in the same way as direct hostilities. If it was the EU would’ve fallen by now as I’ve lost a count of how many times states were caught spying on one another.
  - vmception 5y ago
    Right, the main benefit/issue is that spyware and exploits are not seen as “munitions” anywhere, and as such, escape regulation or meaningful export controls.
    - 5y ago
nottoday539 5y ago
Dirty little zionists.
oars 5y ago
Do the timings of this increased scrutiny have anything to do with the current conflict with Palestine?
- emacsen 5y ago
  I know that this is probably an innocent comment on your part, but the wording of "with Palestine" implies that there are two places in a fight, one called Israel, the other called Palestine. This is a simplified explanation of why this label is not correct. Palestinians are in fact three distinct groups of people who all self-identify the same way. There are the group of people who are Israeli citizens. They used to identify as Israeli Arabs, but they've recently (in the last five or so years) begun to self identify as Palestinians. Then there is the group in the West Bank formerly Jordan. This is land that Israel captured in the 1967 war, when there was a unified effort by the neighboring nations to attack/destroy Israel, but Israel won. It returned a majority of the land it captured (more than two thirds), kept some. But Jordan did not allow citizens living in this land the ability to return to Jordan, and they became refugees, being neither Jordanian (according to Jordan) or Israelis (according to Israel). The situation is similar in Gaza, except there is is Egypt, and is on the other side of the country. The refugees there are former (or descendants of) Egypt. Both places have had the opportunity to petition the UN to be a recognized country, but they've not done so. You may ask why these three groups call themselves the same thing. Why "Palestinian"- because for many of them, this unified label also implies in it the idea that Israel should not exist and the land should be reverted back to Palestine, the name that Israel (and Jordan) had before it was split and allocated as Israel. The PLO, the governing body of the West Bank, would like to see the destruction of Israel and it to be returned to Palestine, but they're also pragmatists and some (many) believe they would accept a two-state solution. The governing body of Gaza, however, is Hamas, an internationally recognized terrorist organization which is on a religious mission to kill all non-Muslims (and by Muslim they mean a very specific sect/belief system) from the land- no Jews, no Christians, etc. They're very similar in ideology and methodology to ISIS, but ISIS and Hamas don't get along either due to differences in their own philosophies. Lastly, there are Israeli Arabs, that is fully Israeli citizens who were part of or descendants of the land from when Israel was formed (or who migrated to Israel) have grievances due to the way Arabs are treated in Israel. There are legitimate grievances on their part for sure, and there are a wide variety of solutions- from political reform, new laws about equality, or funding (think US inner-city poverty) to the destruction of Israel, and everything in between. There are problems with creating a two state solution because there's no land border between the West Bank and Gaza. They're on opposite sides of the country, essentially. It's a bit more complex, but look at it on a map and you'll see the issue. It would be unreasonable for a unified people to have Israel sitting in the middle of its country, or for Israel to give up a huge swath of land and be split into two. And Israel, under the previous government, allowed 400,000-500,000 people to create settlements in disputed land that was supposed to be kept free of people in an agreement founding the demilitarized zone. If you're an American, that's basically the population of Washington, DC. Now what the heck do we do with those people? But my point is there's no single "conflict with Palestine"- there are separate conflicts, each with their own peoples, issues, grievances, etc.
KingOfCoders 5y ago
What I find funny is this: "Our clients only use the software against terrorists and criminals, so it can't be used the wrong way" "We made sure that it doesn't work against US phone numbers". That is straight out of "A Few Good Men": If Colonel Jessup ordered the soldier should not be touched, and soldiers follow orders, why was the victim scheduled for a plane ride off the base?
- pulse7 5y ago
  "Our clients only use the software against terrorists and criminals" => So this means that French PM Macron is a terrorist or criminal - for somebody who built this software...
  - tasogare 5y ago
    Given he wasted millions years of living from the population by locking them down, heavily damaged the economy by doing so and he's now discriminating the population around a medical variable, calling him a criminal isn't that far-fetched. And before you jump on me with "it was necessary", no it wasn't, as shown by Japan, Korea and Taiwan way of dealing with the pandemic. (He also sold national strategic interests to foreign powers)
    - noduerme 5y ago
      You know, Israel was the first country to require a vaccine passport to go to the gym. However they simply made it so difficult to avoid vaccination that everyone did it. I'm pretty sure the Israeli government is not in the business of sterilizing Jews, so, I would say it's probably safe. Take the vaccine and get the passport and go out. It's a benefit of living in a first world country.
      - Guthur 5y ago
        Sounds more like autocracy to me. Whether or not you want to have a vaccine or not is irrelevant to the fact that wanting a government to coerce people into a medical treatment is a Pandora's box I'm not sure we should really be so keen on.
tester34 5y ago
I do wonder whether FBI will hunt those reverse and software engineers behind those tools I do wonder how many of them are in this comment chain or previous big thread about Pegasus
- cbg0 5y ago
  It's an Israeli company, how exactly is the FBI going to hunt down their engineers?
  - tester34 5y ago
    the same way they hunt Russian hackers on vacations in cool places :) src: https://www.google.com/search?q=russian+hacker+caught+on+vacations https://www.google.com/search?q=russian+hacker+caught+on+vac... 1 >At noon on June 28, 2012, Vladimir Drinkman, targeted as one of America’s most wanted cybercriminals, and his wife hustled into a cab pulling away from their Amsterdam hotel. They had just been tipped off that the police were on to them, but an unmarked police car blocked their getaway. The Russian was handcuffed and arrested on charges of helping to mastermind what has been called the largest criminal hacking scheme ever prosecuted in the United States. _____________ 2 >The United States has carried out a largely unheralded roundup of big Russian hackers over the last year, grabbing them on vacation in Barcelona, Prague and Greece, ______________ or great talk by Adam Haertle, but unfortunely in Polish with English subtitles avaliable The day of cybercriminal, or how hard it is to remain an uncaught https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPIIILlIYXE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPIIILlIYXE
    - hutzlibu 5y ago
      Well, but unlike russia, Israel is an ally of the US.
      - erezsh 5y ago
        FBI arrests in Israel have happened in the past.
    - 5y ago
deleted 5y ago
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Synaesthesia 5y ago
This spyware can install onto any iPhone or Android phone and spy on everything you do silently. It's a game changer for governments and their ability to intrude on our lives. It really vindicates everything Snowden has said on the topic.
- cf499 5y ago
  "It really vindicates everything Snowden has said on the topic." Did any of his statements really need vindication though? Have we not known about this forever? (e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON) I suspect the real problem is, and always has been, our perceived inability to change any of it.
  - _kbh_ 5y ago
    ECHELON is way worse then Pegasus though, cause ECHELON / PRISM / whatever you don't even need spyware on your phone or to be targeted to be scooped up in their net.
    - Zak 5y ago
      Mass interception over the wire affects more people, but it's easier to defend against using cryptography.
    - toofy 5y ago
      maybe. these are different problems existing in different scopes. a modern echelon dragnet would get an absolute mass of encrypted data so your fear will depend on whether or not you believe governments can break that crypto, and if so, at what scale. pegasus on the other hand is highly targeted, infects silently and completely takes over your device–the camera, the microphone, keyboard, etc… encryption will not help. nothing can save you. echelon was dragnet, pegasus is targeted. both extremely dangerous yet i still find something about pegasus to be infinitely more frightening. we’ve already seen very high profile journalists murdered from pegasus and i suspect we’re going to uncover more as it’s dug into further.
  - 5y ago
nindalf 5y ago
I’m not surprised that all statements from the Israeli government are filled with nothing. “We need to understand what happened” means “sorry not sorry”. This spyware is invaluable for the Israeli government because they have something that repressive Arab regimes want. These regimes can’t be bought with money, because some of them like Saudi Arabia and UAE have plenty of money. Israel needs friends and this is a great way to start and maintain friendships - provide a way for these tinpot dictators to cement their power. Sure, some people might be annoyed they were spied on but the news cycle will move on soon, while Saudi and UAE will remain staunch allies. MBS still loves them because Khashoggi remains dead. Israel would have gotten away with it too, if it hadn’t been for the meddling kids at Amnesty International.
- joelbluminator 5y ago
  Well from an Israeli point of view how is this wrong then? Maintaining a good relationship with Saudi Arabia is a game changer for Israel.
  - nindalf 5y ago
    It isn’t wrong or undesirable from their point of view. That’s my point.
  - detcader 5y ago
    Is the current world any different from Skyrim or Game of Thrones? Do you think it should be? Real, not facetious questions I'd be curious to discuss.
    - joelbluminator 5y ago
      Not sure what you're asking. I think from the dissident's point of view it's a tragedy. From Israel's point of view it's business and maintaining good relationships with people who can become an enemy in a heartbeat. How is this different from Western countries selling arms by the billions? That's also not always about money but about diplomacy.
byteman 5y ago
Isn't it a bit weird that all of the criticism is pointed at the state in which a private company made this technology and none of the criticism is pointed at the actual states that bought and used it?
- poisonarena 5y ago
  Not weird at all, given the recent uptick in anti-israel sentiments in the left, and uptick of antisemitism worldwide
  - croes 5y ago
    I get it. Calling out chinese, russian and north korean hacking = fighting cyber terrorism. Calling out israeli hacking = antisemitism
    - seigando 5y ago
      lol as if those are comparable governments.
      - croes 5y ago
        I bet the targeted journalists and oppositionists feel much better because countries like Saudi Arabia spied on them with software from good governments, just like the people in Mexico are glad they get shot by good german weapons instead of evil russian ones.
        seigando 5y ago
        ...wait why are you leaving the u.s. out of any of your examples?
    - poisonarena 5y ago
      you're missing the point, and putting words in my mouth. Israeli hacking criticism is not anti-semitism, and thats not what I meant. But the thousands of articles coming out every week criticizing Israel are largely motivated to destroy the countries image. The antisemitism is related and undeniable as a side to all of this.
raffraffraff 5y ago
Watergate seems tame these days...
fidesomnes 5y ago
As long as dual citizens control the US supreme court and Congress they don't actually care.
kota2 5y ago
I long for the day when someone will stand up to Israel always bullying and terrorizing helpless people. At least curb their incessant spying...
olivierduval 5y ago
This story is kind of funny: "intelligence" is a game where everybody cheat and everybody say that he doesn't. That's the basic (and maybe only) rule of the game... So when a cheater is caught, the main consequence is that... he has to find another way to cheat!!! For a long time, Israel is known to be cheating with cyber... and I wouldn't be surprised that France is using NSO services too! Same goes for Palantir... But it has to be non-public! Showing it publicly is a way to force everybody to find other ways... but won't change the world nor the game. And it's not about "terrorist"... just about "intelligence" and "national security"
- erezsh 5y ago
  > but won't change the world nor the game I don't think that was ever the point. In a game of cat-and-mouse, you don't skip on a chance to spray the cat.
scoot 5y ago
Slightly OT, but a week or so ago Instagram decided that I'm in Israel for the purpose of targeted advertising, and their Covid Info Center. I've no idea why, and no idea how to fix it. It makes skipping ads easy (anything in Hebrew), but it's mildly disconcerting not knowing what's behind it.
deleted 5y ago
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stjohnswarts 5y ago
If they had any sense they would shutdown this company selling to hostile foreign dictators to track, imprison, and kill journalists and politicians.
stunt 5y ago
We put hackers in jail for building spyware! even those that don't use it themselves to hack a target. Why is it legal for NSO to sell Pegasus?
orteam 5y ago
In light of the Raven reveals from 2019 [0], I don't see what makes NSO stand apart and get so much bad rep (besides the obvious fact that any spyware is bad). In Raven, ex-NSA contractors not only supplied the spyware but actually helped operate it on-site, at least in the UAE. My guess would be that NSO et al compete with US-based players on price, not effectiveness. So the angle I find fascinating is the amount of pile-on on NSO/Israel this campaign effectively generates. Anti Israeli sentiment has become the watering hole where wokes and alts of all stripes can get their fuzzies and co-exist (at least for a while :/) [0] https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-spying-raven/ https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-spyi....

419 points by graderjs 5y ago

The genie might be out of the bottle here for them. A lot of investigative journalism now coming out (1) which shows that Pegasus is really just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to Israeli spyware. (1) https://www.mintpressnews.com/meet-toka-the-most-dangerous-israeli-spyware-firm-youve-never-heard-of/278020/ https://www.mintpressnews.com/meet-toka-the-most-dangerous-i...

adav 5y ago
That's a very questionable source. With such an overtly anti-Israel position, that's probably best taken with a large pinch of salt.
- user-the-name 5y ago
  Yes, that site bears all the hallmarks of a misinformation front: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MintPress_News https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MintPress_News The author of the article also seems to be severely lacking in good judgement, since she seems to have appeared on the podcast of anti-vaxxer RFK Jr recently.
  - Ticklee 5y ago
    Wikipedia is also a misinformation front though, as far as all it does it consolidate media opinions on any given topic.
    - user-the-name 5y ago
      Come on, you know that's a bullshit response.
  - encryptluks2 5y ago
    It seems that many prominent Zionist are very friendly with alt-right and conservative types until it is convenient for them to play the antisemitism card and then suddenly they question their judgement.
- l33tbro 5y ago
  Do you actually have counter-arguments to her findings here?
- dpwm 5y ago
  Should we take the sometimes-overtly, other-times-covertly pro-Israel position of much of the western media with a similar pinch of salt?
  - keewee7 5y ago
    Opinions on Israel-Palestine seem to depend on generation. Boomer journalists are pro-Israel and millennial journalists seem to be pro-Palestinian. In the recent conflict NYT and WaPost were pro-Palestinian unlike the conflict in 2014 when they were neutral. In 2008/2009 they were openly pro-Israel.
- dessant 5y ago
  I'm not familiar with the source, but can you give us a reason why one should be pro-Israel in this instance? I see nothing wrong with condemning the actions of the Israeli government, nor questioning why one of the prominent exports of the Israeli technology sector is surveillance. I keep being contacted several times a year by established Israeli companies to add spyware into my projects. A couple of weeks ago I was offered $5000 as a sign up bonus by Bright Data (formerly Luminati), before that a growth specialist from Similarweb contacted me to gather intelligence about how to aquire Firefox for Android extensions, it was so slimy I've reported the latter to Mozilla employees. I can't come up with a single country with such a disproportionate amount of shady companies specialized in online tracking and surveillance compared to the small population size.
  - noduerme 5y ago
    >> can you give us a reason why one should be pro-Israel in this instance? Because when it's done in the interest of preventing another holocaust, which is the entire reason for the existence of Israel, it's not the same as when the Chinese government does it to terrify and imprison minorities, or when Russia does it to destroy Putin's personal opponents. I too question their choice of who they licensed this tech to, but hopefully they got plenty of useful intel on those governments along the way.
    - disgu 5y ago
      How is that a reason? This stuff is always justified by claiming it ensures the safety of people. Another justification has never existed for any of these.
    - Cyph0n 5y ago
      How does selling spyware to authoritarian governments so that they can monitor activists and journalists “prevent another Holocaust”?
      - noduerme 5y ago
        Presumably, the real interest of the Israeli government, to the extent it's involved, is in monitoring the people they sold the software to.
- xvector 5y ago
  I cannot imagine how someone could possibly be pro-Israel in the specific context of cybercrime and cyberwarfare. They are literally enabling regimes to blackmail and murder innocent, good people. Also, please provide actual counterarguments.
  - user-the-name 5y ago
    Is it Israel, the state, that is doing that?
    - helge9210 5y ago
      Yes. Every sale is approved by at least to ministers.
      - wizzwizz4 5y ago
        That's interesting. Do you have a source?
        kota2 5y ago
        Sure, there is many: https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/interactive/2021/nso-spyware-pegasus-cellphones/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/interactive/20... "The Israeli Defense Ministry must approve any license to a government that wants to buy it, according to previous NSO statements."
- 3327 5y ago
  The source may be questionable, but very likely it is the TIP of the iceberg...
emacsen 5y ago
As others have mentioned, the source you're citing is at best highly questionable. The amount of leaps the article makes is just out of this world, mostly that this Israeli company has Israelis involved, and that Israelis who have experience with mathematics and computer work also serve their mandatory military service in an intelligence unit of the military rather than as foot soldiers and that an Israeli company has Israeli investors. Israel is a tiny country the size of New Jersey, the fact that there will be overlap of people and connections between them is always the case- there's nothing nefarious about it. Anyway, looking at the author's twitter gives one a good look into what this looks like if taken outside the context of Israel: https://twitter.com/_whitneywebb?lang=en https://twitter.com/_whitneywebb?lang=en She's an anti-vaxxer talking about how the "ruling class" of using COVID to gain control over the population, about hidden FBI assets, and a ton about how the anti-Defmation League, a group that collects data on antisemitism is really a massive spy network. If it weren't so scary that people believe in it, it might be funny. There's no reason to put any more credence in her
- noduerme 5y ago
  The really scary part is that Q nuts like this are now running the Republican party, and they have no love for Israel. The second most egregious mistake Netanyahu made, after bowing to the settlers, was staking Israel's future on an alliance with the American right. Only the four people at Commentary Magazine believe there's still a non-crazy conservative movement in the US who wouldn't turn on Israel in a heartbeat... although they have a point that the progressives already have done so. The penning of this article really closes the circle of right/left conspiracy theory. If there's one thing all conspiracy theorists can agree on, it's the Jews. I think that's what you're seeing that's disturbing.
  - pasabagi 5y ago
    Mmm, I think at the end of the day, Israel is probably the only reliable strategic partner in a resource-rich region full of basketcases. At worst, they'll have to tone it down a bit. If the US ceases to back them, they can always find a new backer.
toofy 5y ago
I understand how messy the context surrounding this next point is but it’s worth considering. From what Ive been seeing over the past couple weeks, the article is probably correct in that pegasus is just the beginning of what we’re going to find out regarding how deep the rabbit hole goes with israeli malware firms, however mint press has a very long history of what may be questionable funding and there have been quite a lot of organizations who have done some pretty well researched investigating that implicates mint press in some pretty nasty propaganda. Again, I understand how complicated and messy this kind of thing can be, but if you at all value accuracy in your analysis, it would absolutely be worth looking at some of their history regarding incredibly questionable funding and very strange propaganda for certain regimes.

vmception 5y ago

Naftali Bennett‘s first real test. Would he actually know or have a way to find out why Macron secrets are being traded to Pegasus clients, or even reign in the spyware industry at all? Would the fragile coalition be able to handle this PM doing anything about it, or is this so far outside of their priority list that it doesn't matter and there is room for real reform?

golergka 5y ago
They have an easy out: blame it on Bibi and promise change.
- google234123 5y ago
  It's also a fair out.
peteretep 5y ago
> Would he actually know or have a way to find out why Macron secrets are being traded to Pegasus clients, or even reign in the spyware industry at all? I don’t think this would pass muster as an excuse if Israeli industry had been selling missiles to Morocco for use against France. Curious to see if it ends up being treated the same.
- dogma1138 5y ago
  France and Morocco have a very close relationship, this quite equivalent since spying isn’t treated in the same way as direct hostilities. If it was the EU would’ve fallen by now as I’ve lost a count of how many times states were caught spying on one another.
- vmception 5y ago
  Right, the main benefit/issue is that spyware and exploits are not seen as “munitions” anywhere, and as such, escape regulation or meaningful export controls.
  - 5y ago

nottoday539 5y ago

Dirty little zionists.

oars 5y ago

Do the timings of this increased scrutiny have anything to do with the current conflict with Palestine?

emacsen 5y ago
I know that this is probably an innocent comment on your part, but the wording of "with Palestine" implies that there are two places in a fight, one called Israel, the other called Palestine. This is a simplified explanation of why this label is not correct. Palestinians are in fact three distinct groups of people who all self-identify the same way. There are the group of people who are Israeli citizens. They used to identify as Israeli Arabs, but they've recently (in the last five or so years) begun to self identify as Palestinians. Then there is the group in the West Bank formerly Jordan. This is land that Israel captured in the 1967 war, when there was a unified effort by the neighboring nations to attack/destroy Israel, but Israel won. It returned a majority of the land it captured (more than two thirds), kept some. But Jordan did not allow citizens living in this land the ability to return to Jordan, and they became refugees, being neither Jordanian (according to Jordan) or Israelis (according to Israel). The situation is similar in Gaza, except there is is Egypt, and is on the other side of the country. The refugees there are former (or descendants of) Egypt. Both places have had the opportunity to petition the UN to be a recognized country, but they've not done so. You may ask why these three groups call themselves the same thing. Why "Palestinian"- because for many of them, this unified label also implies in it the idea that Israel should not exist and the land should be reverted back to Palestine, the name that Israel (and Jordan) had before it was split and allocated as Israel. The PLO, the governing body of the West Bank, would like to see the destruction of Israel and it to be returned to Palestine, but they're also pragmatists and some (many) believe they would accept a two-state solution. The governing body of Gaza, however, is Hamas, an internationally recognized terrorist organization which is on a religious mission to kill all non-Muslims (and by Muslim they mean a very specific sect/belief system) from the land- no Jews, no Christians, etc. They're very similar in ideology and methodology to ISIS, but ISIS and Hamas don't get along either due to differences in their own philosophies. Lastly, there are Israeli Arabs, that is fully Israeli citizens who were part of or descendants of the land from when Israel was formed (or who migrated to Israel) have grievances due to the way Arabs are treated in Israel. There are legitimate grievances on their part for sure, and there are a wide variety of solutions- from political reform, new laws about equality, or funding (think US inner-city poverty) to the destruction of Israel, and everything in between. There are problems with creating a two state solution because there's no land border between the West Bank and Gaza. They're on opposite sides of the country, essentially. It's a bit more complex, but look at it on a map and you'll see the issue. It would be unreasonable for a unified people to have Israel sitting in the middle of its country, or for Israel to give up a huge swath of land and be split into two. And Israel, under the previous government, allowed 400,000-500,000 people to create settlements in disputed land that was supposed to be kept free of people in an agreement founding the demilitarized zone. If you're an American, that's basically the population of Washington, DC. Now what the heck do we do with those people? But my point is there's no single "conflict with Palestine"- there are separate conflicts, each with their own peoples, issues, grievances, etc.

KingOfCoders 5y ago

What I find funny is this: "Our clients only use the software against terrorists and criminals, so it can't be used the wrong way" "We made sure that it doesn't work against US phone numbers". That is straight out of "A Few Good Men": If Colonel Jessup ordered the soldier should not be touched, and soldiers follow orders, why was the victim scheduled for a plane ride off the base?

pulse7 5y ago
"Our clients only use the software against terrorists and criminals" => So this means that French PM Macron is a terrorist or criminal - for somebody who built this software...
- tasogare 5y ago
  Given he wasted millions years of living from the population by locking them down, heavily damaged the economy by doing so and he's now discriminating the population around a medical variable, calling him a criminal isn't that far-fetched. And before you jump on me with "it was necessary", no it wasn't, as shown by Japan, Korea and Taiwan way of dealing with the pandemic. (He also sold national strategic interests to foreign powers)
  - noduerme 5y ago
    You know, Israel was the first country to require a vaccine passport to go to the gym. However they simply made it so difficult to avoid vaccination that everyone did it. I'm pretty sure the Israeli government is not in the business of sterilizing Jews, so, I would say it's probably safe. Take the vaccine and get the passport and go out. It's a benefit of living in a first world country.
    - Guthur 5y ago
      Sounds more like autocracy to me. Whether or not you want to have a vaccine or not is irrelevant to the fact that wanting a government to coerce people into a medical treatment is a Pandora's box I'm not sure we should really be so keen on.

tester34 5y ago

I do wonder whether FBI will hunt those reverse and software engineers behind those tools I do wonder how many of them are in this comment chain or previous big thread about Pegasus

cbg0 5y ago
It's an Israeli company, how exactly is the FBI going to hunt down their engineers?
- tester34 5y ago
  the same way they hunt Russian hackers on vacations in cool places :) src: https://www.google.com/search?q=russian+hacker+caught+on+vacations https://www.google.com/search?q=russian+hacker+caught+on+vac... 1 >At noon on June 28, 2012, Vladimir Drinkman, targeted as one of America’s most wanted cybercriminals, and his wife hustled into a cab pulling away from their Amsterdam hotel. They had just been tipped off that the police were on to them, but an unmarked police car blocked their getaway. The Russian was handcuffed and arrested on charges of helping to mastermind what has been called the largest criminal hacking scheme ever prosecuted in the United States. _____________ 2 >The United States has carried out a largely unheralded roundup of big Russian hackers over the last year, grabbing them on vacation in Barcelona, Prague and Greece, ______________ or great talk by Adam Haertle, but unfortunely in Polish with English subtitles avaliable The day of cybercriminal, or how hard it is to remain an uncaught https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPIIILlIYXE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPIIILlIYXE
  - hutzlibu 5y ago
    Well, but unlike russia, Israel is an ally of the US.
    - erezsh 5y ago
      FBI arrests in Israel have happened in the past.
  - 5y ago

deleted 5y ago

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Synaesthesia 5y ago

This spyware can install onto any iPhone or Android phone and spy on everything you do silently. It's a game changer for governments and their ability to intrude on our lives. It really vindicates everything Snowden has said on the topic.

cf499 5y ago
"It really vindicates everything Snowden has said on the topic." Did any of his statements really need vindication though? Have we not known about this forever? (e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON) I suspect the real problem is, and always has been, our perceived inability to change any of it.
- _kbh_ 5y ago
  ECHELON is way worse then Pegasus though, cause ECHELON / PRISM / whatever you don't even need spyware on your phone or to be targeted to be scooped up in their net.
  - Zak 5y ago
    Mass interception over the wire affects more people, but it's easier to defend against using cryptography.
  - toofy 5y ago
    maybe. these are different problems existing in different scopes. a modern echelon dragnet would get an absolute mass of encrypted data so your fear will depend on whether or not you believe governments can break that crypto, and if so, at what scale. pegasus on the other hand is highly targeted, infects silently and completely takes over your device–the camera, the microphone, keyboard, etc… encryption will not help. nothing can save you. echelon was dragnet, pegasus is targeted. both extremely dangerous yet i still find something about pegasus to be infinitely more frightening. we’ve already seen very high profile journalists murdered from pegasus and i suspect we’re going to uncover more as it’s dug into further.
- 5y ago

nindalf 5y ago

I’m not surprised that all statements from the Israeli government are filled with nothing. “We need to understand what happened” means “sorry not sorry”. This spyware is invaluable for the Israeli government because they have something that repressive Arab regimes want. These regimes can’t be bought with money, because some of them like Saudi Arabia and UAE have plenty of money. Israel needs friends and this is a great way to start and maintain friendships - provide a way for these tinpot dictators to cement their power. Sure, some people might be annoyed they were spied on but the news cycle will move on soon, while Saudi and UAE will remain staunch allies. MBS still loves them because Khashoggi remains dead. Israel would have gotten away with it too, if it hadn’t been for the meddling kids at Amnesty International.

joelbluminator 5y ago
Well from an Israeli point of view how is this wrong then? Maintaining a good relationship with Saudi Arabia is a game changer for Israel.
- nindalf 5y ago
  It isn’t wrong or undesirable from their point of view. That’s my point.
- detcader 5y ago
  Is the current world any different from Skyrim or Game of Thrones? Do you think it should be? Real, not facetious questions I'd be curious to discuss.
  - joelbluminator 5y ago
    Not sure what you're asking. I think from the dissident's point of view it's a tragedy. From Israel's point of view it's business and maintaining good relationships with people who can become an enemy in a heartbeat. How is this different from Western countries selling arms by the billions? That's also not always about money but about diplomacy.

byteman 5y ago

Isn't it a bit weird that all of the criticism is pointed at the state in which a private company made this technology and none of the criticism is pointed at the actual states that bought and used it?

poisonarena 5y ago
Not weird at all, given the recent uptick in anti-israel sentiments in the left, and uptick of antisemitism worldwide
- croes 5y ago
  I get it. Calling out chinese, russian and north korean hacking = fighting cyber terrorism. Calling out israeli hacking = antisemitism
  - seigando 5y ago
    lol as if those are comparable governments.
    - croes 5y ago
      I bet the targeted journalists and oppositionists feel much better because countries like Saudi Arabia spied on them with software from good governments, just like the people in Mexico are glad they get shot by good german weapons instead of evil russian ones.
      - seigando 5y ago
        ...wait why are you leaving the u.s. out of any of your examples?
  - poisonarena 5y ago
    you're missing the point, and putting words in my mouth. Israeli hacking criticism is not anti-semitism, and thats not what I meant. But the thousands of articles coming out every week criticizing Israel are largely motivated to destroy the countries image. The antisemitism is related and undeniable as a side to all of this.

raffraffraff 5y ago

Watergate seems tame these days...

fidesomnes 5y ago

As long as dual citizens control the US supreme court and Congress they don't actually care.

kota2 5y ago

I long for the day when someone will stand up to Israel always bullying and terrorizing helpless people. At least curb their incessant spying...

olivierduval 5y ago

This story is kind of funny: "intelligence" is a game where everybody cheat and everybody say that he doesn't. That's the basic (and maybe only) rule of the game... So when a cheater is caught, the main consequence is that... he has to find another way to cheat!!! For a long time, Israel is known to be cheating with cyber... and I wouldn't be surprised that France is using NSO services too! Same goes for Palantir... But it has to be non-public! Showing it publicly is a way to force everybody to find other ways... but won't change the world nor the game. And it's not about "terrorist"... just about "intelligence" and "national security"

erezsh 5y ago
> but won't change the world nor the game I don't think that was ever the point. In a game of cat-and-mouse, you don't skip on a chance to spray the cat.

scoot 5y ago

Slightly OT, but a week or so ago Instagram decided that I'm in Israel for the purpose of targeted advertising, and their Covid Info Center. I've no idea why, and no idea how to fix it. It makes skipping ads easy (anything in Hebrew), but it's mildly disconcerting not knowing what's behind it.

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stjohnswarts 5y ago

If they had any sense they would shutdown this company selling to hostile foreign dictators to track, imprison, and kill journalists and politicians.

stunt 5y ago

We put hackers in jail for building spyware! even those that don't use it themselves to hack a target. Why is it legal for NSO to sell Pegasus?

orteam 5y ago

In light of the Raven reveals from 2019 [0], I don't see what makes NSO stand apart and get so much bad rep (besides the obvious fact that any spyware is bad). In Raven, ex-NSA contractors not only supplied the spyware but actually helped operate it on-site, at least in the UAE. My guess would be that NSO et al compete with US-based players on price, not effectiveness. So the angle I find fascinating is the amount of pile-on on NSO/Israel this campaign effectively generates. Anti Israeli sentiment has become the watering hole where wokes and alts of all stripes can get their fuzzies and co-exist (at least for a while :/) [0] https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-spying-raven/ https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-spyi....