12 ms·

Ian Manuel, survivor of excessive child punishment, tells his story

146 points by throwawayswede 5y ago

Clewza313 5y ago
> No programs or classes, no visitors, phone calls, or human touch, deprived of books, magazines, TV, and radio, and barred from talking or even looking out of his cell door And this for a 13-year-old, who was sentenced to life without parole. WTF.
- knownjorbist 5y ago
  This is what "tough on crime" gets you - a race to the bottom.
  - w_t_payne 5y ago
    At that point, the state is as criminally brutish as those it seeks to morally disparage and demean, and has lost any right to even be listened to.
- drno123 5y ago
  The same 13-year old was doing armed robbery and only by chance his victim did not die.
  - calt 5y ago
    Ok. And in what wild world of ethics does this even hint at being justified? Torture is not punishment. Torture is torture.
    - southerntofu 5y ago
      I would argue torture is punishment, but punishment is not justice. Strongly recommend "Discipline and Punish" by Michel Foucault as an introduction to how our society operates in regards to social control.
  - Griffinsauce 5y ago
    It sucks that they thought that was a good idea. A good hard look should be taken at the environment that led to that. Also: why not teach them to be better, do you think 13 year olds are incapable of learning?
  - felipelemos 5y ago
    At 13 years old you cannot decide to have sex, vote, drive, drink and so on, exactly because you are unable to decide or take responsibility.
- tpush 5y ago
  Here in Germany children under 14 can't even be guilty of any crime whatsoever. US society truly seems barbaric sometimes.
  - AvocadoPanic 5y ago
    Just another instance where American teenagers are more advanced. The US has a violent minority population that persists in offending. Germany is importing a similarly violent cohort. I'm sure your teens will catch-up.
- scotty79 5y ago
  I wonder how this guy even stayed verbal.
tomcatfish 5y ago
> Because he was a very small boy, state prison officials decided to place Ian in solitary confinement, where he remained for the next 18 years. What on earth? Solitary confinement starting as a child, potentially for life? What a weird way for this to hash out. Strictly speaking, not being around others may be good, but solitary is an overadjustment.
- pstuart 5y ago
  solitary is torture.
mkelly 5y ago
Why is it even possible to “charge [someone] as an adult”. If you have the concept of “adult” and “child”, and a line in between them, how can the crime dictate someone’s mental maturity? (Of course the answer is, I’m sure, is selective enforcement. So they can lock up black kids and let white kids off the hook.)
- rscoots 5y ago
  Do you actually know anything about the judge, jury, and DA in this case? Or are you content to drive-by smear them using the same prejudice youre supposedly protesting here? So are you "sure"? Please tell us more.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - Griffinsauce 5y ago
    More valuable discussion can be had by engaging with the first point. Neither of you are likely to affect each other's viewpoint on the latter.
    - rscoots 5y ago
      Why leave the 2nd 'point' go unchallenged because the poster might be stubborn? Seems like a weird standard for a public conversation. I grant some may find it a less "valuable" one though.
- Aerroon 5y ago
  Because it's possible to game a system with rigid lines. Gangs could hire kids below the age cut off to do some of the work.
  - tomerv 5y ago
    That sounds like a serious crime by the gang leaders, and less so by the hired kids.
fortran77 5y ago
TO me this is the most amazing piece of the story: > With few contacts on the outside, Ian reached out to the shooting victim, Debbie Berkovits, to ask for her forgiveness, which she gave. A remarkable relationship emerged in which Ms. Berkovits became a supporter for a reduced sentence for Ian. But courts were nonresponsive.
- fisherjeff 5y ago
  Highly recommend the book Just Mercy, by Bryan Stevenson, which includes this story among others.
- axiosgunnar 5y ago
  Just to explain the POV of the state, i.e. "why dont they release him if the victim is fine with it": One of the reasons for incarcerations is vengeance, and another one is protecting the community from further crime. If the victim forgives the perpetrator, you could argue no vengeance is necessary anymore; however, this person could still be a danger to future victims. A life sentence for a 13yo is harsh of course, I am just trying to explain why the courts not letting him go after the victim forgave him is not as surprising as one might think at first.
wombatmobile 5y ago
> The U.S. is the only advanced nation that uses prolonged isolation as a routine tool of prison management. What is the definition of "advanced nation"?
- radmuzom 5y ago
  Based on practical experrience, a nation that can get away with human rights abuses and illegal war crimes using their financial or military power.
  - atemerev 5y ago
    So, all of them?
- agent327 5y ago
  In my experience, statements like the one you quoted are generally just made up on the spot, and the author adds phrases like "advanced nation" so he can weasel his way out if someone bothers to do a minimum of research and finds a counter example. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solitary_confinement#United_Kingdom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solitary_confinement#United_Ki... Oh look, the UK has 40 people in solitary confinement. I guess the UK doesn't qualify as an advanced nation then?
  - wombatmobile 5y ago
    What would you consider makes a nation “advanced”?
    - llampx 5y ago
      Being rich, I guess.
    - agent327 5y ago
      I can think of several things, but perhaps more important here is that I didn't make the link between a nation being advanced and it locking people up in solitary confinement. Check my original post to see the argument I was making against using phrases like 'advanced nations' (it's just a cop out to hide the authors complete lack of research).
Barrin92 5y ago
Life without parole is an inhumane form of punishment. It takes away the mere chance that someone, after having bettered him or herself and paid their debt to society can be included in society again, which in my opinion is the only justified basis on which to incarcerate someone in the first place.
- imiric 5y ago
  The US and most countries' prison system seeks to punish and extract cheap labor out of prisoners, not rehabilitate them for reintroduction to society. It's big business[1]. Cases like this are not uncommon. People slip through the cracks, get stuck fighting the legal system, and eventually with enough luck and media attention the government can go "oops" and reverse a decision that often has ruined people's lives. There's no accountability and this keeps happening. [1]: https://news.law.fordham.edu/jcfl/2018/12/09/the-american-prison-system-its-just-business/ https://news.law.fordham.edu/jcfl/2018/12/09/the-american-pr...
  - xyzzyz 5y ago
    The US and most countries' prison system seeks to punish and extract cheap labor out of prisoners, not rehabilitate them for reintroduction to society. It's big business[1]. That’s just simply untrue. The value of labor of prisoners is so low that it wouldn’t cover the cost of imprisoning them, even if all of the prisoners actually worked full time (and the actual figures are well short of that). Now, to be sure, a lot of people make money on prisons, mostly government employees (as great majority prisons are government run), but also some private businesses too. However, the causation goes the opposite way to what you seem to argue: majority of people in prisons are there, because they committed a serious crime, usually violent, not because the prison industrial complex has somehow snatched them from the street for cheap labor. Even the private prisons make most of their money on contracting with government, not on products of prisoner labor (which, again to reiterate, is worth very little).
    - sollewitt 5y ago
      I think you are assuming the company charging for labor is paying for lodging, food, and other expenses, and that doesn't break even. But that isn't how it is: the prisons charge companies or the government for labor and charge the taxpayers a day rate for the service of incarceration - additional prisoners mean additional profit. Like most graft in the US, the issue is that private companies get to make a profit on public expenses. This is "more efficient" than having the government do it at cost (see also: medicine). The practice in this case disincentivizes rehabilitation, means people lobby for things like 3 strikes, or trivial parole violations, mandatory minimums etc. The incentive structure creates systemic reinforcement. You go in to the system and it doesn't particularly want you to come out.
shadilay 5y ago
>During the botched robbery attempt, a woman suffered a nonfatal gunshot wound. Ian turned himself in to the police and was charged as an adult with armed robbery and attempted murder. I'm confused, did he shoot her or not?
- lmm 5y ago
  The article wants you to be confused; acknowledging clearly that he shot her, or giving more details to humanise her, would detract from its position.
  - drno123 5y ago
    I cannot help but think that the cruel punshment did indeed work. The guy apologised to the victim and it seems he is a new man now. If he was given a shorter sentence without solitary, he would probably make friends with other prisoners and continue shooting people after he got out od the prison.
    - monkeydreams 5y ago
      > I cannot help but think that the cruel punshment did indeed work. I struggle to understand how you reach that conclusion. Occams Razor would suggest that one only need to assume that a thirteen year old might only need to grow p for this outcome to be plausible. > If he was given a shorter sentence without solitary, he would probably make friends with other prisoners and continue shooting people after he got out od the prison. Or, hear me out here, if you put the prisoners in a situation where they are able to learn behaviours that reinforce social norms rather than jamming them together likes rats in a cage guarded by sadistic lab technicians, then you probably would have lower recidivism rates. This is what the data says, when comparing the conservative penal systems in the West (with rates of 50%+ after 2 years) with progressive states (with rates around 20-25% after 2 years). It turns out not treating people like monsters means you have fewer monsters.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- 5y ago
rendall 5y ago
Heartbreaking. A US citizen is likely not fully aware of the caprice and barbarity of the criminal justice system until it touches their lives somehow, but once seen it cannot be unseen. I have a cousin in prison 10 years into a 20 year stretch, and my horror at her conviction led to my emigrating to more civilized lands. Edit: she's "Elizabeth Crafton" in this article https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/alexcampbell/these-mothers-were-sentenced-to-at-least-10-years-for-failin https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/alexcampbell/these-moth...
- ALittleLight 5y ago
  Just from reading a couple articles about Elizabeth Crafton in that county her story sounds horrific. It seems like she knowingly exposed her children to a violent person who beat and tortured them. She observed injuries "appearing" on her daughter and knew her boyfriend was violent and never connected the dots? I do think the criminal justice system in the US is deeply flawed and needs lots and lots of reform... But I'm not really seeing the problem with a conviction for a woman who would expose her children to this. Is there additional context you can add? "The child was literally beaten from head to toe... She was bruised on the top of her head to the bottom of her feet. The girl, who suffered some brain damage, had cigarette burns, a skull fracture and a broken wrist... https://www.oklahoman.com/article/3521061/man-kills-self-after-child-abuse-conviction-in-miami-ok https://www.oklahoman.com/article/3521061/man-kills-self-aft... https://www.enidnews.com/oklahoma/how-laws-meant-to-protect-children-can-fail-mothers/article_664353dc-526a-11ea-b56d-23d2d61bd0a3.html https://www.enidnews.com/oklahoma/how-laws-meant-to-protect-...
  - verall 5y ago
    Yea it's terrible but she got 20 years while the man who beat her child got 11.
  - rendall 5y ago
    I've never met Elizabeth, so I couldn't say for sure whether she knew or not, but it doesn't make sense given how much I know she loves her kids. It makes more sense to me that if she saw signs that she didn't want to believe it, rather than that she knew and approved. Regardless, I can't see how in a just system she would get nearly twice the sentence of the man who actually did it, especially when even the prosecutor admits she didn't abuse the children and wasn't in the house when it occurred. Look, I get it. We want to believe that if someone gets 20 years, it must be reasonable in some way. I'm probably biased, but I just can't see it, here.
simonbarker87 5y ago
Life without parole, given to someone who is 13 beggars belief. How can someone believe that that is what is best for society? We are basically different people every 5-10 years and at that age even every 2 or 3. A 13 year old committing this kind of crime is more an indictment of the country/county/city failing that it is a reflection of the person. Should there be a punishment? Certainly. Should there be rehabilitation and education as well (more so even)? Yes. Put aside the moral and ethical cost here, just the shear financial cost or this punishment is unbelievable. The judge mustn’t have viewed this boy as a person, the only way you can doll out these kinds of punishment is to see the person as some kind of animal. I dread to think how many other cases they issued similar horrendous sentences on.
- fergie 5y ago
  > Put aside the moral and ethical cost here, just the shear financial cost or this punishment is unbelievable. Yes, it is very odd. It seems like a lot of people have gone to a lot of effort to keep Ian Manuel in prison- but why? What is the motivation here? Profit? Revenge? Public safety? Who benefits when kids are incarcerated for decades?
  - int_19h 5y ago
    The motivation in general is to appease the "tough on crime" voters. Cases like this are simply the inevitable consequence of laws and policies that flow from that.
  - choeger 5y ago
    All sentiments aside, some kids and teenagers are extremely dangerous. It could be that such a punishment came out of the desire to protect others (e.g., own kids). Society does not have an answer to the more extrem cases of deviants, sadly. But that consideration aside, putting a 13 year old into solitary confinement for years is a crime against humanity. The barbarian nation that does this should get a good old-fashioned regime change.
    - rxhernandez 5y ago
S_A_P 5y ago
I don’t know how it feels and hope I never have to feel the grief that a homicide of a loved one. I also don’t think that locking a 14 year old up for their entire natural life is appropriate either. My son is 13. He is not even close to being capable of understanding the long range consequences of his actions right now. I could see how letting him roam around the streets without adult supervision could put him in a very tough spot. IMO At this age kids need love and guidance and small doses of agency to allow them to make choices and learn how to navigate the world. I think that a lot of these kids that end up in this circumstance are likely from broken or otherwise dysfunctional homes. I’m not sure how to fix it, but life in prison doesn’t seem to be the right way.
- hkt 5y ago
  To be clear, the article specified that he was jailed for a non-homicide offence.
  - xyzzyz 5y ago
    Yes, it didn’t end up being a homicide — not for the lack of trying, though. He shot his victim in the head.
    - Griffinsauce 5y ago
      I've never understood why this is segmented by outcome instead of intention for these kinds of cases. If you shoot someone in the head you should be tried for murder. It's what you intended to commit.
      - laichzeit0 5y ago
        What if I intended to shoot you in the shoulder but missed and hit your head?
        henvic 5y ago
        You assumed the risk of causing more harm than you wanted the very moment you pulled the trigger. Did you pull the trigger by accident? You assumed the risk the moment you decided to cock the gun. Did you cock the gun by accident? You assumed the risk the moment you decided to engage. All that said, I don't believe in punitive justice. For me, justice should be reparative. It's great if he has recovered and been pardoned by the victim. I also don't think isolating someone as much is good either. However, I can understand how you might want to isolate someone who does such wicked action. It's a shame nothing else was done during incarceration, though. Thankfully death penalty wasn't applied. We can't trust the state to decide who lives or dies. Not only are there too many victims of wrongful convictions, but the cost of a single miscarriage of justice is unbearable.
azundo 5y ago
Also on the most recent episode of criminal: https://thisiscriminal.com/episode-170-ian-manuel-7-30-21 https://thisiscriminal.com/episode-170-ian-manuel-7-30-21
roschdal 5y ago
> Ian Manuel was arrested and charged with a nonhomicide offense Which actions did Mr. Manuel do that resulted in his arrest?
- rebuilder 5y ago
  It’s just a few paragraphs down in the article: “ 13-year-old Ian was directed by older juveniles to commit a robbery. During the botched robbery attempt, a woman suffered a nonfatal gunshot wound. Ian turned himself in to the police and was charged as an adult with armed robbery and attempted murder.”
  - roschdal 5y ago
    Mr. Manuel shot a woman. I approve of his punishment.
    - ubiquitysc 5y ago
      While 13 years old and resulting from a robbery he was intimidated into. Life without possibility at parole is hardly proportional to that, not to mention the extended period of inhuman solitary confinement.
      - Aerroon 5y ago
        I don't see why a 13 year old could be punished to life without parole. Surely he's going to change in 20 or 30 years?
        AvocadoPanic 5y ago
        Certainly an inauspicious beginning. He may become more violent and a more accomplished marksman.
    - brainless 5y ago
      Do you need a hug? I glanced through your comments (1) and there is so much negativity and poop throwing around. You seem to discourage people to even try learning new things?!?!? This is Hacker News, WTF? Are you well? Please take care pal, it seems you are having a tough time. 1. https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=roschdal https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=roschdal
atemerev 5y ago
I am always shocked how cruel some people can be, and so many of them. Even in this thread, there are people who _approve_ these atrocities. There isn’t much hope for the world.
jmacd 5y ago
The sheer number of judges, bureaucrats, prison administrators, prison guards, medical staff, and dozens of other people who would have come across this boy and his plight over those decades would have been significant. That none of them would, or could, do anything to ease his suffering even in some small way is disappointing. I hope I could do better in a similar position of authority.
bsenftner 5y ago
The US "justice system" is a farce, and a worth reason to leave the United States. I have a brother that was a troublesome teen, and the police basically never let him alone. Situations cascaded simply due to immature behavior on both sides, but the police are institutionally not supposed to be immature children, but THEY ARE! After decades of harassment, he left and now lives very happily in Germany.
- randompwd 5y ago
  "troublesome teen" is a wide-ranging gamut. Was he putting other people in danger? What actions was he doing that caused the police to get involved? Great that he's happy now but would he have continued down a more dangerous path if left to his own devices?
  - bsenftner 5y ago
    Basically speeding and being mouthy in bars, sometimes leading to parking lot fights. But that was early, young, and they basically used that to harass him continually.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
scotty79 5y ago
This reminds me of times when people put on trial and sentenced animals for crimes against humans.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

> No programs or classes, no visitors, phone calls, or human touch, deprived of books, magazines, TV, and radio, and barred from talking or even looking out of his cell door And this for a 13-year-old, who was sentenced to life without parole. WTF.

knownjorbist 5y ago
This is what "tough on crime" gets you - a race to the bottom.
- w_t_payne 5y ago
  At that point, the state is as criminally brutish as those it seeks to morally disparage and demean, and has lost any right to even be listened to.
drno123 5y ago
The same 13-year old was doing armed robbery and only by chance his victim did not die.
- calt 5y ago
  Ok. And in what wild world of ethics does this even hint at being justified? Torture is not punishment. Torture is torture.
  - southerntofu 5y ago
    I would argue torture is punishment, but punishment is not justice. Strongly recommend "Discipline and Punish" by Michel Foucault as an introduction to how our society operates in regards to social control.
- Griffinsauce 5y ago
  It sucks that they thought that was a good idea. A good hard look should be taken at the environment that led to that. Also: why not teach them to be better, do you think 13 year olds are incapable of learning?
- felipelemos 5y ago
  At 13 years old you cannot decide to have sex, vote, drive, drink and so on, exactly because you are unable to decide or take responsibility.
tpush 5y ago
Here in Germany children under 14 can't even be guilty of any crime whatsoever. US society truly seems barbaric sometimes.
- AvocadoPanic 5y ago
  Just another instance where American teenagers are more advanced. The US has a violent minority population that persists in offending. Germany is importing a similarly violent cohort. I'm sure your teens will catch-up.
scotty79 5y ago
I wonder how this guy even stayed verbal.

tomcatfish 5y ago

> Because he was a very small boy, state prison officials decided to place Ian in solitary confinement, where he remained for the next 18 years. What on earth? Solitary confinement starting as a child, potentially for life? What a weird way for this to hash out. Strictly speaking, not being around others may be good, but solitary is an overadjustment.

pstuart 5y ago
solitary is torture.

mkelly 5y ago

Why is it even possible to “charge [someone] as an adult”. If you have the concept of “adult” and “child”, and a line in between them, how can the crime dictate someone’s mental maturity? (Of course the answer is, I’m sure, is selective enforcement. So they can lock up black kids and let white kids off the hook.)

rscoots 5y ago
Do you actually know anything about the judge, jury, and DA in this case? Or are you content to drive-by smear them using the same prejudice youre supposedly protesting here? So are you "sure"? Please tell us more.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- Griffinsauce 5y ago
  More valuable discussion can be had by engaging with the first point. Neither of you are likely to affect each other's viewpoint on the latter.
  - rscoots 5y ago
    Why leave the 2nd 'point' go unchallenged because the poster might be stubborn? Seems like a weird standard for a public conversation. I grant some may find it a less "valuable" one though.
Aerroon 5y ago
Because it's possible to game a system with rigid lines. Gangs could hire kids below the age cut off to do some of the work.
- tomerv 5y ago
  That sounds like a serious crime by the gang leaders, and less so by the hired kids.

fortran77 5y ago

TO me this is the most amazing piece of the story: > With few contacts on the outside, Ian reached out to the shooting victim, Debbie Berkovits, to ask for her forgiveness, which she gave. A remarkable relationship emerged in which Ms. Berkovits became a supporter for a reduced sentence for Ian. But courts were nonresponsive.

fisherjeff 5y ago
Highly recommend the book Just Mercy, by Bryan Stevenson, which includes this story among others.
axiosgunnar 5y ago
Just to explain the POV of the state, i.e. "why dont they release him if the victim is fine with it": One of the reasons for incarcerations is vengeance, and another one is protecting the community from further crime. If the victim forgives the perpetrator, you could argue no vengeance is necessary anymore; however, this person could still be a danger to future victims. A life sentence for a 13yo is harsh of course, I am just trying to explain why the courts not letting him go after the victim forgave him is not as surprising as one might think at first.

wombatmobile 5y ago

> The U.S. is the only advanced nation that uses prolonged isolation as a routine tool of prison management. What is the definition of "advanced nation"?

radmuzom 5y ago
Based on practical experrience, a nation that can get away with human rights abuses and illegal war crimes using their financial or military power.
- atemerev 5y ago
  So, all of them?
agent327 5y ago
In my experience, statements like the one you quoted are generally just made up on the spot, and the author adds phrases like "advanced nation" so he can weasel his way out if someone bothers to do a minimum of research and finds a counter example. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solitary_confinement#United_Kingdom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solitary_confinement#United_Ki... Oh look, the UK has 40 people in solitary confinement. I guess the UK doesn't qualify as an advanced nation then?
- wombatmobile 5y ago
  What would you consider makes a nation “advanced”?
  - llampx 5y ago
    Being rich, I guess.
  - agent327 5y ago
    I can think of several things, but perhaps more important here is that I didn't make the link between a nation being advanced and it locking people up in solitary confinement. Check my original post to see the argument I was making against using phrases like 'advanced nations' (it's just a cop out to hide the authors complete lack of research).

Barrin92 5y ago

Life without parole is an inhumane form of punishment. It takes away the mere chance that someone, after having bettered him or herself and paid their debt to society can be included in society again, which in my opinion is the only justified basis on which to incarcerate someone in the first place.

imiric 5y ago
The US and most countries' prison system seeks to punish and extract cheap labor out of prisoners, not rehabilitate them for reintroduction to society. It's big business[1]. Cases like this are not uncommon. People slip through the cracks, get stuck fighting the legal system, and eventually with enough luck and media attention the government can go "oops" and reverse a decision that often has ruined people's lives. There's no accountability and this keeps happening. [1]: https://news.law.fordham.edu/jcfl/2018/12/09/the-american-prison-system-its-just-business/ https://news.law.fordham.edu/jcfl/2018/12/09/the-american-pr...
- xyzzyz 5y ago
  The US and most countries' prison system seeks to punish and extract cheap labor out of prisoners, not rehabilitate them for reintroduction to society. It's big business[1]. That’s just simply untrue. The value of labor of prisoners is so low that it wouldn’t cover the cost of imprisoning them, even if all of the prisoners actually worked full time (and the actual figures are well short of that). Now, to be sure, a lot of people make money on prisons, mostly government employees (as great majority prisons are government run), but also some private businesses too. However, the causation goes the opposite way to what you seem to argue: majority of people in prisons are there, because they committed a serious crime, usually violent, not because the prison industrial complex has somehow snatched them from the street for cheap labor. Even the private prisons make most of their money on contracting with government, not on products of prisoner labor (which, again to reiterate, is worth very little).
  - sollewitt 5y ago
    I think you are assuming the company charging for labor is paying for lodging, food, and other expenses, and that doesn't break even. But that isn't how it is: the prisons charge companies or the government for labor and charge the taxpayers a day rate for the service of incarceration - additional prisoners mean additional profit. Like most graft in the US, the issue is that private companies get to make a profit on public expenses. This is "more efficient" than having the government do it at cost (see also: medicine). The practice in this case disincentivizes rehabilitation, means people lobby for things like 3 strikes, or trivial parole violations, mandatory minimums etc. The incentive structure creates systemic reinforcement. You go in to the system and it doesn't particularly want you to come out.

shadilay 5y ago

>During the botched robbery attempt, a woman suffered a nonfatal gunshot wound. Ian turned himself in to the police and was charged as an adult with armed robbery and attempted murder. I'm confused, did he shoot her or not?

lmm 5y ago
The article wants you to be confused; acknowledging clearly that he shot her, or giving more details to humanise her, would detract from its position.
- drno123 5y ago
  I cannot help but think that the cruel punshment did indeed work. The guy apologised to the victim and it seems he is a new man now. If he was given a shorter sentence without solitary, he would probably make friends with other prisoners and continue shooting people after he got out od the prison.
  - monkeydreams 5y ago
    > I cannot help but think that the cruel punshment did indeed work. I struggle to understand how you reach that conclusion. Occams Razor would suggest that one only need to assume that a thirteen year old might only need to grow p for this outcome to be plausible. > If he was given a shorter sentence without solitary, he would probably make friends with other prisoners and continue shooting people after he got out od the prison. Or, hear me out here, if you put the prisoners in a situation where they are able to learn behaviours that reinforce social norms rather than jamming them together likes rats in a cage guarded by sadistic lab technicians, then you probably would have lower recidivism rates. This is what the data says, when comparing the conservative penal systems in the West (with rates of 50%+ after 2 years) with progressive states (with rates around 20-25% after 2 years). It turns out not treating people like monsters means you have fewer monsters.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
5y ago

rendall 5y ago

Heartbreaking. A US citizen is likely not fully aware of the caprice and barbarity of the criminal justice system until it touches their lives somehow, but once seen it cannot be unseen. I have a cousin in prison 10 years into a 20 year stretch, and my horror at her conviction led to my emigrating to more civilized lands. Edit: she's "Elizabeth Crafton" in this article https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/alexcampbell/these-mothers-were-sentenced-to-at-least-10-years-for-failin https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/alexcampbell/these-moth...

ALittleLight 5y ago
Just from reading a couple articles about Elizabeth Crafton in that county her story sounds horrific. It seems like she knowingly exposed her children to a violent person who beat and tortured them. She observed injuries "appearing" on her daughter and knew her boyfriend was violent and never connected the dots? I do think the criminal justice system in the US is deeply flawed and needs lots and lots of reform... But I'm not really seeing the problem with a conviction for a woman who would expose her children to this. Is there additional context you can add? "The child was literally beaten from head to toe... She was bruised on the top of her head to the bottom of her feet. The girl, who suffered some brain damage, had cigarette burns, a skull fracture and a broken wrist... https://www.oklahoman.com/article/3521061/man-kills-self-after-child-abuse-conviction-in-miami-ok https://www.oklahoman.com/article/3521061/man-kills-self-aft... https://www.enidnews.com/oklahoma/how-laws-meant-to-protect-children-can-fail-mothers/article_664353dc-526a-11ea-b56d-23d2d61bd0a3.html https://www.enidnews.com/oklahoma/how-laws-meant-to-protect-...
- verall 5y ago
  Yea it's terrible but she got 20 years while the man who beat her child got 11.
- rendall 5y ago
  I've never met Elizabeth, so I couldn't say for sure whether she knew or not, but it doesn't make sense given how much I know she loves her kids. It makes more sense to me that if she saw signs that she didn't want to believe it, rather than that she knew and approved. Regardless, I can't see how in a just system she would get nearly twice the sentence of the man who actually did it, especially when even the prosecutor admits she didn't abuse the children and wasn't in the house when it occurred. Look, I get it. We want to believe that if someone gets 20 years, it must be reasonable in some way. I'm probably biased, but I just can't see it, here.

simonbarker87 5y ago

Life without parole, given to someone who is 13 beggars belief. How can someone believe that that is what is best for society? We are basically different people every 5-10 years and at that age even every 2 or 3. A 13 year old committing this kind of crime is more an indictment of the country/county/city failing that it is a reflection of the person. Should there be a punishment? Certainly. Should there be rehabilitation and education as well (more so even)? Yes. Put aside the moral and ethical cost here, just the shear financial cost or this punishment is unbelievable. The judge mustn’t have viewed this boy as a person, the only way you can doll out these kinds of punishment is to see the person as some kind of animal. I dread to think how many other cases they issued similar horrendous sentences on.

fergie 5y ago
> Put aside the moral and ethical cost here, just the shear financial cost or this punishment is unbelievable. Yes, it is very odd. It seems like a lot of people have gone to a lot of effort to keep Ian Manuel in prison- but why? What is the motivation here? Profit? Revenge? Public safety? Who benefits when kids are incarcerated for decades?
- int_19h 5y ago
  The motivation in general is to appease the "tough on crime" voters. Cases like this are simply the inevitable consequence of laws and policies that flow from that.
- choeger 5y ago
  All sentiments aside, some kids and teenagers are extremely dangerous. It could be that such a punishment came out of the desire to protect others (e.g., own kids). Society does not have an answer to the more extrem cases of deviants, sadly. But that consideration aside, putting a 13 year old into solitary confinement for years is a crime against humanity. The barbarian nation that does this should get a good old-fashioned regime change.
  - rxhernandez 5y ago

S_A_P 5y ago

I don’t know how it feels and hope I never have to feel the grief that a homicide of a loved one. I also don’t think that locking a 14 year old up for their entire natural life is appropriate either. My son is 13. He is not even close to being capable of understanding the long range consequences of his actions right now. I could see how letting him roam around the streets without adult supervision could put him in a very tough spot. IMO At this age kids need love and guidance and small doses of agency to allow them to make choices and learn how to navigate the world. I think that a lot of these kids that end up in this circumstance are likely from broken or otherwise dysfunctional homes. I’m not sure how to fix it, but life in prison doesn’t seem to be the right way.

hkt 5y ago
To be clear, the article specified that he was jailed for a non-homicide offence.
- xyzzyz 5y ago
  Yes, it didn’t end up being a homicide — not for the lack of trying, though. He shot his victim in the head.
  - Griffinsauce 5y ago
    I've never understood why this is segmented by outcome instead of intention for these kinds of cases. If you shoot someone in the head you should be tried for murder. It's what you intended to commit.
    - laichzeit0 5y ago
      What if I intended to shoot you in the shoulder but missed and hit your head?
      - henvic 5y ago
        You assumed the risk of causing more harm than you wanted the very moment you pulled the trigger. Did you pull the trigger by accident? You assumed the risk the moment you decided to cock the gun. Did you cock the gun by accident? You assumed the risk the moment you decided to engage. All that said, I don't believe in punitive justice. For me, justice should be reparative. It's great if he has recovered and been pardoned by the victim. I also don't think isolating someone as much is good either. However, I can understand how you might want to isolate someone who does such wicked action. It's a shame nothing else was done during incarceration, though. Thankfully death penalty wasn't applied. We can't trust the state to decide who lives or dies. Not only are there too many victims of wrongful convictions, but the cost of a single miscarriage of justice is unbearable.

azundo 5y ago

Also on the most recent episode of criminal: https://thisiscriminal.com/episode-170-ian-manuel-7-30-21 https://thisiscriminal.com/episode-170-ian-manuel-7-30-21

roschdal 5y ago

> Ian Manuel was arrested and charged with a nonhomicide offense Which actions did Mr. Manuel do that resulted in his arrest?

rebuilder 5y ago
It’s just a few paragraphs down in the article: “ 13-year-old Ian was directed by older juveniles to commit a robbery. During the botched robbery attempt, a woman suffered a nonfatal gunshot wound. Ian turned himself in to the police and was charged as an adult with armed robbery and attempted murder.”
- roschdal 5y ago
  Mr. Manuel shot a woman. I approve of his punishment.
  - ubiquitysc 5y ago
    While 13 years old and resulting from a robbery he was intimidated into. Life without possibility at parole is hardly proportional to that, not to mention the extended period of inhuman solitary confinement.
    - Aerroon 5y ago
      I don't see why a 13 year old could be punished to life without parole. Surely he's going to change in 20 or 30 years?
      - AvocadoPanic 5y ago
        Certainly an inauspicious beginning. He may become more violent and a more accomplished marksman.
  - brainless 5y ago
    Do you need a hug? I glanced through your comments (1) and there is so much negativity and poop throwing around. You seem to discourage people to even try learning new things?!?!? This is Hacker News, WTF? Are you well? Please take care pal, it seems you are having a tough time. 1. https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=roschdal https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=roschdal

atemerev 5y ago

I am always shocked how cruel some people can be, and so many of them. Even in this thread, there are people who _approve_ these atrocities. There isn’t much hope for the world.

jmacd 5y ago

The sheer number of judges, bureaucrats, prison administrators, prison guards, medical staff, and dozens of other people who would have come across this boy and his plight over those decades would have been significant. That none of them would, or could, do anything to ease his suffering even in some small way is disappointing. I hope I could do better in a similar position of authority.

bsenftner 5y ago

The US "justice system" is a farce, and a worth reason to leave the United States. I have a brother that was a troublesome teen, and the police basically never let him alone. Situations cascaded simply due to immature behavior on both sides, but the police are institutionally not supposed to be immature children, but THEY ARE! After decades of harassment, he left and now lives very happily in Germany.

randompwd 5y ago
"troublesome teen" is a wide-ranging gamut. Was he putting other people in danger? What actions was he doing that caused the police to get involved? Great that he's happy now but would he have continued down a more dangerous path if left to his own devices?
- bsenftner 5y ago
  Basically speeding and being mouthy in bars, sometimes leading to parking lot fights. But that was early, young, and they basically used that to harass him continually.

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scotty79 5y ago

This reminds me of times when people put on trial and sentenced animals for crimes against humans.

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