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Google delays workers’ return to office, mandates vaccines

throwawaysea 5y ago
Although I have all my vaccines and "believe" in their effectiveness and general safety, I am very much against mandating vaccines broadly across our society, whether in public services (like schools, colleges) or private companies. I feel it violates our fundamental right to health privacy and bodily autonomy. Everyone has different personal assessments of risks and benefits, levels of trust in private companies that supply vaccines, levels of trust in governmental agencies that certify treatments, and so on. I feel individuals should be allowed to exercise judgment based on those personal assessments, and that freedom is best retained at the individual level. I get the argument that vaccines may prevent spreading to others, but I view viruses as a 'background event' like the weather, and don't think one individual should be coerced to undergo a medical procedure to protect another individual. I think those who fear the risks should manage their own risks as individuals, and either wear appropriate clothing (PPE) or limit their own public exposure. But leaving aside these philosophical debates, it seems like the CDC is also now unsure about vaccination reducing spreading, and believes that vaccinated individuals can spread the Delta variant. So why force any individual into vaccination?
- myle 5y ago
  I feel taking a shower is an unpleasant procedure that violates my freedom on my body. If I stink, it is your problem. And most likely, I just stink and I won't make you sick.
  - throwawaysea 5y ago
    That's a good example that breaks my argument, and to be honest, I don't have a great argument against it that would remain principled. But instinctively I somehow feel like a requirement around hygiene is more reasonable than a requirement around vaccination. Maybe it is because taking a shower is just using water, whereas vaccines are opaque, manufactured substances that emerge from organizations with their own (profit) motives? I am not sure but will need to think about it more.
    - unanswered 5y ago
      I feel like this exchange may have been a manufactured strawman, because the flaw in the shower argument is obvious: no one is mandating showers, and there are no widespread objections to showers. Even insofar as minimal personal hygiene is implicitly required, it's left entirely up to an individual's conscience how to achieve it. A fair comparison would be mandating "either a vaccine or avoiding crowds in indoor spaces or any similar measure", since both of those are known to significantly reduce (but not eliminate) the risk. (How effectively they do so is beside the point of the inapplicability of the shower analogy.)
      - myle 5y ago
        Do you know the historic origin of parfumes? Taking a shower is not anymore controversial, but it used to be. People would be offended. I also disagree with the "obvious fault" of my reasoning. At least not obvious to me. Not all unaccepted behaviors need to be banned, precisely because there is not sufficient frequency among other reasons. ...And no, the other person is not an alt account I made. I am too lazy for that.
greenyoda 5y ago
Discussion of original source: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27986106 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27986106 And another big discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27986160 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27986160
joelbondurant 5y ago
Weakling diaper facers should stay inside forever. If weaklings go outside in the sun, it could give me skin cancer.

Although I have all my vaccines and "believe" in their effectiveness and general safety, I am very much against mandating vaccines broadly across our society, whether in public services (like schools, colleges) or private companies. I feel it violates our fundamental right to health privacy and bodily autonomy. Everyone has different personal assessments of risks and benefits, levels of trust in private companies that supply vaccines, levels of trust in governmental agencies that certify treatments, and so on. I feel individuals should be allowed to exercise judgment based on those personal assessments, and that freedom is best retained at the individual level. I get the argument that vaccines may prevent spreading to others, but I view viruses as a 'background event' like the weather, and don't think one individual should be coerced to undergo a medical procedure to protect another individual. I think those who fear the risks should manage their own risks as individuals, and either wear appropriate clothing (PPE) or limit their own public exposure. But leaving aside these philosophical debates, it seems like the CDC is also now unsure about vaccination reducing spreading, and believes that vaccinated individuals can spread the Delta variant. So why force any individual into vaccination?

myle 5y ago
I feel taking a shower is an unpleasant procedure that violates my freedom on my body. If I stink, it is your problem. And most likely, I just stink and I won't make you sick.
- throwawaysea 5y ago
  That's a good example that breaks my argument, and to be honest, I don't have a great argument against it that would remain principled. But instinctively I somehow feel like a requirement around hygiene is more reasonable than a requirement around vaccination. Maybe it is because taking a shower is just using water, whereas vaccines are opaque, manufactured substances that emerge from organizations with their own (profit) motives? I am not sure but will need to think about it more.
  - unanswered 5y ago
    I feel like this exchange may have been a manufactured strawman, because the flaw in the shower argument is obvious: no one is mandating showers, and there are no widespread objections to showers. Even insofar as minimal personal hygiene is implicitly required, it's left entirely up to an individual's conscience how to achieve it. A fair comparison would be mandating "either a vaccine or avoiding crowds in indoor spaces or any similar measure", since both of those are known to significantly reduce (but not eliminate) the risk. (How effectively they do so is beside the point of the inapplicability of the shower analogy.)
    - myle 5y ago
      Do you know the historic origin of parfumes? Taking a shower is not anymore controversial, but it used to be. People would be offended. I also disagree with the "obvious fault" of my reasoning. At least not obvious to me. Not all unaccepted behaviors need to be banned, precisely because there is not sufficient frequency among other reasons. ...And no, the other person is not an alt account I made. I am too lazy for that.

greenyoda 5y ago

Discussion of original source: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27986106 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27986106 And another big discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27986160 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27986160

joelbondurant 5y ago

Weakling diaper facers should stay inside forever. If weaklings go outside in the sun, it could give me skin cancer.