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I've been making my own, purely as a pipe-dream to have some hope of walking again, it's not easy but I'm hoping it'll be a better fit than consumer ones, and p

• AutumnCurtain 5y ago
  I worked in a logistics operation that explored exoskeleton options deeply in 2019. Options were shockingly limited and the best products were not powered in any way - essentially just frames to bolster your body mechanically. Compare to the massive, extremely precise, and power-efficient automated storage and retrieval systems and it just seemed like stone age tech. My takeaway was that powered exoskeleton tech must be vastly more difficult to implement than I'd expected. The financial incentives are there for warehouse and logistics applications, but the tech just isn't.
  • michaelt 5y ago
    What sort of power sources do current powered exoskeletons use, and what sort of runtimes do you get? That's where I'd foresee the limitations - that you'd end up hefting 80 lbs of battery for 20 minutes of operation.
    • AutumnCurtain 5y ago
      I haven't been in the industry for a little bit, so I'm sure the tech has evolved, but the versions we evaluated used battery hot-swapping to extend use time. I honestly don't recall how long a single battery ran for. We primarily evaluated them for use for loads that were too light or unwieldy to necessitate a vehicle but which were too heavy for a human worker to regularly lift without risk of injury (so the 75-200lb range)
      • vosper 5y ago
        So it needs power to move the weight of the human, plus 75-200lb? I’m wondering if an exoskeleton that’s only for moving a person about might have a lower power requirement or longer battery life?
        • AutumnCurtain 5y ago
          The human bears their own weight, so they need to move the exoskeleton + load. These systems are more like braces you stand in with strong frames and motors to augment your natural lifting motions than "waldo"-style full exoskeletons. In that respect they differ from what would be needed to help a fully disabled person stand.
    • dogorman 5y ago
      Might there be merit to a semi-tethered approach? Enough onboard batteries to last a minute or two when you walk to another room, where you promptly plug in again?
      • dr_orpheus 5y ago
        Semi-tethered approach would probably be good for being able to use around the house. And I think this would be consistent with other medical equipment. Some people who require oxygen often have a very large oxygen machine at home with a long cord so they can move around the house, but have to carry portable machines when they are not home. The portable exoskeleton is a pretty big leap though. I think in order to have it be useful anywhere else but at home it would need to be significantly longer on the order of hours. I'm thinking time it takes from getting out of a car to go in to a shop and run an errand and come back (perhaps extra battery packs in the car or a place to recharge from the car)
        • anonymousDan 5y ago
          Or for added convenience, what if you had something like a roomba that followed you around the house and plugged in to a socket in the room on one end and to the exoskeleton frame on the other end without any manual intervention on your part?
          • dr_orpheus 5y ago
            That would be pretty cool. Also made me think of an idea (albient a super unsafe one) of having overhead power to connect to like an electric trolley.
  • modeless 5y ago
    One issue is safety. A powered exoskeleton with any significant fraction of a human's full strength necessarily has the power to maim people including the operator. A robot can just be put in a cage where it can't hurt people, but an exoskeleton can't.
    • zeteo 5y ago
      > A robot can just be put in a cage where it can't hurt people, but an exoskeleton can't. This would have made a great premise for an Asimov story.
      • justnotworthit 5y ago
        A robot poses as an exoskeleton to escape captivity?
• giantg2 5y ago
  I've always wanted to make one that fits like spandex and uses things that mimic anatomical function, like nitinol wires to mimic muscle.
  • wizzwizz4 5y ago
    I imagine that wouldn't be very powerful.
    • giantg2 5y ago
      Why?
      • wizzwizz4 5y ago
        Reasons others have brought up, and that you have addressed. (Unfortunately I can't delete my comment.)
  • yupper32 5y ago
    In order to mimic muscle wouldn't you need the wires physically attached to your body somehow? Getting leverage with a spandex like material doesn't sound possible.
    • giantg2 5y ago
      Yes, the nitinol is not the only component. You would need things to mimic other pieces of the system, like tendons and a way to anchor them to false structures or utilize existing bone. I mentioned fitting similar to spandex because all these other suits are bulky. Sure, this system would still have bulk, but it should be more conforming than mechanical legs that sit several inches outside of the person's natural legs. Good luck fitting on public transportation, airplanes, or even walking through a 32" door if you were a bigger person to start with.
  • ad404b8a372f2b9 5y ago
    Oh that's interesting, I use a spandex-like component inside the frame but only to hold electromyography (EMG) electrodes against the leg. I reckon you'd still need a support structure to hold the 50-100kg of weight of the user though.
• regularfry 5y ago
  Size variation, maybe? If you're building an industrial robot you control the size precisely, but if you've got to make everything variable - and not just variable, but to be as comfortable as clothes - I can see that throwing a hell of a lot of complexity into the mix.
  • hinkley 5y ago
    I mean in theory the motors and controllers are identical across all builds, but since the length of the rotating pieces is variable, the angles of rotation might remain the same but the leverage and hence the torque vary by quite a bit. Bigger people have longer limbs, and bigger people also weigh more.
• the_lonely_road 5y ago
  My understanding is its the same thing limiting everything else. Power. Batteries more specifically. We just don't have a way to power anything for very long that doesn't have a cable attached to a wall attached to a power station. Honestly the ability for humans (and other living creatures) to just DO SO MUCH on just a little bio mass each day is astounding.
  • devwastaken 5y ago
    Don't forget patents. You yourself can create whatever you want, but the second you want to sell it you have to have a patent law firm scour over everything, pay dozens of companies, get rejected by others, and end up having to entirely redesign your product in an inefficient manner because some dipstick owns a patent they just sit on. If we abolish patents innovation will finally be possible.
    • big_curses 5y ago
      Why abolish patents rather than just fix their implementation? Patents are very important. Without them, incentive to bring things to market falls as all your hard work of designing and creating something can just immediately be taken and reused by others. This encourages everyone to sit around and wait for others to make something first, and then punishes the one who does. Why not instead rework patents so that they have to be used continuously to be upheld or increase the stringency of that aspect of them?
      • burnished 5y ago
        Is there any evidence that this argument is true? It sort of ignores the fact that people do invent, and frequently, almost as a byproduct of being alive. Plus the constant litigation around patents seems to add more friction to the process, preventing people who would materially contribute to the common good by tinkering and inventing.
      • Kosirich 5y ago
        Is 20 years a bit much though?
• smoldesu 5y ago
  My grandpa, who died before I was born, was wheelchair-bound for the second half of his life, and I was told that he handled it well, but internally it took an incredible toll on his body. When he finally passed away, they found that his basement was littered with machinery, engines and pre-cut body panels. Apparently, in the last few years of his life he threw himself into the idea of building his own plane to restore his freedom on his own terms. Bit of a sad story, but it never fails to motivate me past my usual, procrastinating self.
  • brodouevencode 5y ago
    It's great that you're using him as a source of inspiration. The power of older role models today has unfortunately been overlooked, but I'm glad you've found it. Keep building.
• agumonkey 5y ago
  I'm near ready to start a workshop, I think we ought to make these kind of things more prevalent, a lot of money is lost on ultra expensive medical devices with really low value (wheelchairs or similar) giving someone an exoskeleton might be something much more joyful and inspiring than a wheelchair, it can revive your life
  • hnthrowaway353 5y ago
    My wife is a wheelchair user and it makes me sad to hear that some think her chair has low value, when it's very valuable to us. She can chase after our 15 month toddler without ever getting tired, she can cruise at 6 mph with no problems, and she's quite happy with her life. An exoskeleton wouldn't let her do any of those things and would significantly reduce her quality of life.
    • agumonkey 5y ago
      well i'm dumbfounded, I'd honestly thought an exoskeleton would make people like her happier i never meant to deny your own experience, I was mostly sad about the high cost and limits of a wheel chair.
      • burnished 5y ago
        you didn't say anything wrong, it is a throw away account making claims about how a technology that doesn't exist would definitely decrease quality of life.. I wouldn't put too much stock in what they say.
        • hnthrowaway353 5y ago
          I'm just relaying my wife's opinion. She's kinda tired of people presuming that her life isn't great because she's in a wheelchair and that everything would be better if she could walk.
      • hnthrowaway353 5y ago
        UC San Francisco used to run disability inspiration porn ads showing a plodding exoskeleton that would go about maybe 1 mi/day? My wife would joke that in the time it would take the exoskeleton to get her to the front door, she could used her power chair to walk to Starbucks, order breakfast, and bring it home. Has society put limits on what she can do in her chair due to crappy architecture, yes. Would a practical exoskeleton fix that, we doubt it.
• hinkley 5y ago
  We live in a world where prices are usually set by the constraints of mass production. We have trouble accepting the cost of custom-made things. Hearing aids can be ridiculously expensive. Custom keyboards at least are not quite so ridiculous. Now that some of the earbud manufacturers are dabbling in processing of environmental sound, some people may be able to use consumer grade equipment, particularly younger Boomers and older Gen-Xers, due more to stigma than anything else. Unfortunately that probably reduces volume of product for everyone else, keeping the mean price roughly the same but jacking up the high end.
• justinclift 5y ago
  What's the control method you've been using? eg for input to direct the actions
  • ad404b8a372f2b9 5y ago
    None, it's not the exact same problem in that I have control of my legs just not enough to walk with them or support my weight.
    • kelnos 5y ago
      I think that maybe highlights another difficulty here: there isn't really a one-size-fits-all solution. Some people will need full support, and others will need more of an assist. Not sure both of those things can (or should) be served by the same device. But as soon as you have to build different things for different cases, that drives the cost up, both in R&D and in manufacturing (it's cheaper to build 1000 of one thing than 500 each of two things).
• namlem 5y ago
  Some of the unpowered exoskeletons are pretty impressive, and all things considered, $10-20k isn't that crazy a price. After all, they are not really being mass produced, and are pretty complex mechanical systems. I'd love to see a big company like Caterpillar get on board and start pumping them out for construction purposes. The powered ones are still too expensive for anything but the most niche applications sadly.
• seph-reed 5y ago
  Just for the love of ideating: if ones arms were working, it seems like there may be some way of essentially diverting arm strength between movement, and handling. Kind of like picking up one leg at a time with your arm, while the other stays locked through some ratchet system. It's just a hazy idea, but it could definitely help with the power issue. It's pretty much the same principle as a wheel chair in that regard.
• mustafa_pasi 5y ago
  If you don't already you should document your project on Youtube. It's a super cool project and I'm sure you can even get lots of Patreon sponsors that way and even commercial ones probably.
• dalbasal 5y ago
  I think both exoskeletons and prosthetics suffer from similar issues. To reach affordability, you need unit volume. To get unit volume, you need an initial user segment capable of paying what such a device currently costs. In computing, for example, there's always someone willing to pay for bleeding edge, which then paves the way to price reduction. With these, there just isn't much daylight between prices where basically no one can afford it, and prices where everyone who needs one can. People like you are the best hope. Independent inventors aren't bound by manufacturing economics. Side question: how much power does it take to run existing, mobility oriented exoskeletons?
  • kelnos 5y ago
    I imagine new medical tech is usually covered by insurance, which makes it possible for people to afford it initially (and even later, when the device is more at scale), but I expect it's really hard to get insurance companies (in the US at least) to consider covering new things, especially when there is a cheaper alternative. I imagine an insurance company is heartless enough to believe that a much cheaper wheelchair is "good enough" and there's "no reason" to pay the hefty costs for an experimental exoskeleton.
  • arpafaucon 5y ago
    I live in the EU, and I surprised to discover that insurance companies themselves are interested in funding those exos themselves. The total medical bill of a paraplegic person a or the course of its whole life can get very high. Recent clinical studies appear to show that time spent standing could really improve the health, to a point that "investing" into an exo for their patients could become worth it.
• Fiahil 5y ago
  Have you seen what this, from a few years ago ? Your project is different, but it can be a good inspiration ! https://www.ted.com/talks/hugh_herr_the_new_bionics_that_let_us_run_climb_and_dance?language=en https://www.ted.com/talks/hugh_herr_the_new_bionics_that_let...