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Mercedes-Benz teases super-efficient EV with over 1,000km of range
- notjustanymike 5y agoFunny how 'km' has become so commonplace we forget we can write '1 Mm' (megameter).
- DrBazza 5y agoYou can always convert to brontosaurusii - so this car has a range of 45,495 of them... https://www.theregister.com/Design/page/reg-standards-converter.html https://www.theregister.com/Design/page/reg-standards-conver...
- cogman10 5y agoI see this happen all over the place. Instead of 1 Mg, you'll see thinks like 1000 kg. I think power is the only metric unit I've seen where the common unit also often follows metric notations. 1 kW, MW, GW, TW.
- pwdisswordfish0 5y ago> Instead of 1 Mg, you'll see thinks like 1000 kg. Yeah, I do this a ton myself. I apologize.
- BrandoElFollito 5y agokg is the base SI unit, so 1000 kg is more natural than 1 Mg. The fact that kg is the base unit does not make much sense except for historical reasons when the choice was made. A very bad choice if you ask me.
- Ekaros 5y agoI blame the French... We could have had it all properly and use grave... But no, too big... One of the few ugly bits of SI system. In general otherwise it all just works together so nicely. Then again it's not only weird unit we have, dB is the other one. Ofc, units are nicer to handle, but still... Not that bell isn't weird unit anyway.
- Y_Y 5y agoI agree that bel is a weird unit. To be fair, it's not "in" SI, but just "accepted for use with". I'd also argue that candela and mole are weird for other reasons, and they're SI for real.
- BrandoElFollito 5y agoThe mole is I think for historical reasons, to not piss off chemists too much.
- BrandoElFollito 5y agoI did not know that we were, again, to blame. But at least we have the one and only official and beautiful kilogramme and meter prototype in Sèvres, near Paris. And, again the French way, it is not possible to see them!
- nybble41 5y agoThey may call the kilogram the base unit, but in practice no one talks about millikilograms (just "grams") or microkilograms (just "milligrams"). The gram might be formally defined in terms of a 1 kg physical mass, but for the purpose of SI prefixes the gram is the real base unit and there is nothing wrong with saying 1 Mg instead of 1000 kg.
- laputan_machine 5y agoFrequency too seems to follow the metric convention (e.g. Hz, MHz, GHz, ...)
- leshenka 5y agoAnd don't forget about (kilo)calories mess.
- _Microft 5y ago> I think power is the only metric unit I've seen where the common unit also often follows metric notations. 1 kW, MW, GW, TW. You might just not recognize them as such. Ampere, Volt, Ohm, Tesla, Newton, Pascal, Hertz, Joule, ... are all SI units or directly derived from SI units and used with SI-prefixes regularily.
- chrisseaton 5y agoI see 100cl a lot - bizarre.
- weego 5y agoJust don't edit 1000km to 1kkm and we're golden.
- _Microft 5y agoKilometer works fine for everyday purposes, from fractions of it to orders of magnitude larger, i.e. both 0.1km and 7230km are understandable. Once you are in the realm of science and engineering, you are more likely to encounter scientific notation anyways, e.g. 2.99 x 10^8 m instead of 299 Mm.
- gruez 5y ago...or all the powerbanks that advertise “20,000mAh” rather than just “20Ah”.
- maccard 5y agoPowerbanks are rated that way because batteries are rated that way. For phones it _kind of_ makes sense, as the capacities are closer to the 2.8-3.5 Ah range, and that difference is fairly substantial. (No comment on why processors are measured in GHz rather than MHz). If you want to pick a gripe why do we measure capacity in charge per unit of time times hour, rather than MJ?
- formerly_proven 5y agoThey're marketed that way because big numbers sound good. Lead acid batteries are generally rated in Ah, even if it's just a small stand-by battery with 1.2 Ah. On the other hand, ratings within a group of products are usually done without a prefix change. Perhaps because of defective sorting algorithms, which would e.g. place a 1.7 kV device at the end of the list, while putting a 1500 V device first. That's probably why you see e.g. 4700 µF instead of 4.7 mF as well, though sometimes the latter is used. > If you want to pick a gripe why do we measure capacity in charge per unit of time times hour, rather than MJ? They're equivalent, it's just that writing Wh makes it very clear that you can divide this figure by some discharge power and get the approximate discharge duration. OTOH, an EE likely knows [power W] * [time s] = [energy J] anyway.
- nybble41 5y agoListing capacity in Wh rather than MJ is fine, but many batteries are rated in amp-hours which isn't very helpful unless you also know the voltage. This is particularly annoying when it comes to "smart batteries" such as this USB power pack[0] where you have specs listing "10000 mAh" and "5 volts", but the actual capacity is around 37 Wh because they measured amp-hours at the internal battery and the battery voltage isn't exposed to the user. (Yes, the product description halfway down the page does say "10000mAh/3.7V" in small print if you know to go looking for it, but this isn't noted anywhere in the title or the "About this item" section at the top.) [0] Example: https://www.amazon.com/10000mAh-Portable-Charger-Stylish-Compact/dp/B08D9J2NJP/ https://www.amazon.com/10000mAh-Portable-Charger-Stylish-Com...
- sonium 5y agoThis is nothing compared to how the car industry measures computational power: kDMIPS, kilo-Dhrystone-Mega-instructions-per-second
- nikkinana 5y agoI always ignore this stuff, concept vehicles rarely, if ever make it to production. It's pretty easy to build 1 prototype, but really hard to scale that up.
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- baybal2 5y agoI heard Mercedes group got paired with a battery maker called Farsis Energy. I've heard all kind of fishy things about them, including completely out of this world claims of energy density advances. Yet, I have yet to see a single real world use of their battery tech, which they claimed to have for the last 3 years. On the net, I've seen the claim of them being caught faking their capacity test video with the most poor editing tricks. P.S. The Mercedes may have well just been scammed: https://www.businessinsider.com/mercedes-new-battery-partner-farasis-disappointed-the-quality-of-first-cells-is-catastrophic https://www.businessinsider.com/mercedes-new-battery-partner..., https://www.electrive.com/2021/02/23/problems-mounting-for-daimler-battery-supplier-farasis/ https://www.electrive.com/2021/02/23/problems-mounting-for-d..., https://www.electrive.com/2021/07/12/farasis-battery-production-in-saxony-delayed/ https://www.electrive.com/2021/07/12/farasis-battery-product..., https://carbuzz.com/news/mercedes-ev-production-has-just-hit-a-catastrophic-snag https://carbuzz.com/news/mercedes-ev-production-has-just-hit...
- simion314 5y agoMaybe in the present there is some rush for batteries but in general this automakers buy the parts from others, they offer a project for component X to 3 different factories and then they chose a winner. The other 2 factories though sometimes will still make the market and sell it so customers always have the option to use an "official" replacement or other compatible one.
- baybal2 5y agoI see this is how it will end, but the seemingly physically impossible claims are from Farsis only. They claim unique chemistry, unique cell packaging, unique proprietary circuitry inside their cells, and unique cooling solution. I doubt they were going for a multi-vendor option here from the start, but they may well be forced too once Farsis will crash, and burn.
- adrian_b 5y agoThis Mercedes announcement does not seem to be related to any special expectations about the battery. From what they say, a battery of 100 kWh is supposed to be used for this range and such battery packs already exist. Mercedes claims that their car will use less than 0.1 kWh per km, at normal highway driving speeds. So it seems that they rely on advances in motor efficiency and regenerative braking efficiency and in a low drag coefficient.
- whoknowswhat11 5y agoThey announced 750 miles of range before as well. Mostly total BS. They do have a deal on supposedly breakthrough battery technology but also a world of snack oil and hype.
- drewg123 5y agoIf we're talking about cars that don't exist, the next generation Tesla roadster has a supposed range of 620mi also..
- dreamcompiler 5y agoAnd it will cost $250k so for most people it will never be a real car.
- libertine 5y agoBut isn't that the problem, that there are no affordable EVs for the masses?
- dreamcompiler 5y agoPlenty of affordable EVs exist in China. The US will no doubt have comparable cars soon. https://egear.asia/cheapest-electric-cars-china/ https://egear.asia/cheapest-electric-cars-china/
- dahfizz 5y agoThis brand new, top of the line Mercedes will be super affordable /s
- monkeynotes 5y agoAs an aside, I've been considering an EV as there are some tempting government rebates where I live. One aspect I keep thinking about is battery longevity. Sure you might get 1k km out of a brand new battery but what about in 5-10 years? After all, my phone's simple battery is basically done within 5 years and replacing a car's battery sounds like it would be very expensive.
- baybal2 5y ago> Sure you might get 1k km out of a brand new battery but what about in 5-10 years? After all, my phone's simple battery is basically done within 5 years and replacing a car's battery sounds like it would be very expensive. Yep, don't buy into super duper larger batteries. A bigger battery will last longer in cycle life, sure, but the vehicles itself may well be much more expensive. If your EV will survive long enough to see a battery replacement, then a larger battery will be still a worse option economically.
- monkeynotes 5y agoAffordability is one thing, but it also sounds like a colossal waste of resources to dispense with these batteries in volume. Gas engines last decades with good maintenance and can be rebuilt. The idea that the modern EV is basically toast (cost prohibitive to repair like all modern electronics) after 5-10 years is not the green future we are trying to work toward. It would be interesting to understand the true environmental impact of EVs.
- tonyedgecombe 5y agoTesla are talking about million mile batteries in their upcoming cars: https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/tesla/352330/teslas-new-low-cost-long-life-battery-set-2021-launch https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/tesla/352330/teslas-new-low-co... I know they tend to exaggerate but even if its only half that then it will be better than the average ICE car.
- imtringued 5y ago
- emodendroket 5y agoWhen you get right down to it the obsessive range anxiety doesn’t make a lot of sense. How often are you going on road trips? Actually I’d guess it’s so infrequent that renting would be fine. This sounds crotchety, but it’s a bit of a recurring pattern that I see that presents problems for adopting more efficient standards: everybody needs a pickup because they haul or tow once or twice a year, or long range in case they suddenly decide they want to drive cross-country, even though they never do that, etc.
- georgyo 5y agoCharging an EV takes significantly more time than filling up a gas tank. There are also far more gas stations then electric charging stations. This means a simple trip like going upstate for the weekend would be hindered by needing to know where and when to charge the car. If the entire trip could be done on a single charge, that is a lot of freedom.
- emodendroket 5y agoSomebody who didn’t need the car for regular errands and commuting probably wouldn’t buy it just for the occasional trip, though, wouldn’t you agree?
- dahfizz 5y agoI don't understand the strawman you are trying to construct. Obviously pickup trucks and long range EVs are not for you if you don't need them. That's a non statement. Of course, there are lots of people who do need those things. There are lots of people in the world living in lots of environments that look different than yours.
- emodendroket 5y agoI don’t really think it’s a straw man. If you look into it the vast majority of pickups are used to tow or haul once per year or less. People aren’t actually buying them for practical reasons.
- aazaa 5y ago> While it doesn’t sound like the automaker plans to release a production version of the vehicle, it did confirm that it will use it as a platform to develop its new electric architectures... I knew it. What is it with these EVcompanies and their pre-announcements? Why do that? Why not just start talking about the damned thing when, you know, it's actually ready to test drive and buy? Is every car maker that desperate for attention? Oh, that's right. Because these vehicles aren't necessities. They're fashion accessories. I totally forget this isn't about transportation. It's about buying the thing that makes you look good.
- nathanaldensr 5y agoOne word: Marketing. Now there's an entire thread on HN talking about Mercedes. Job accomplished.
- jtbayly 5y agoConcept cars are not a new thing. Nor are they something that just "EVcompanies" do. The reason they do it pre-exists the modern electric vehicle. I remember seeing concept cars (from Chrysler?) at the Mall of America decades ago. And concept cars from all sorts of companies at the Detroit Auto Show. Some of the things they announced about some of those cars eventually made it into production cars. Many of them were never anything but a concept in a concept car, both of which never saw the light of day.
- varelse 5y agoI recently bought an EV with a 220-ish mile range, but that's really a 160ish mile range given fast charge craps out at 80%. I drove it ~900 miles and I had to recharge seven times. This added 3.5 to 4 hours to the trip. I'd say the first 2 of those were good for my mental health but the remaining 90 minutes were spent at broken charging stations with low charging rates or just broken. Love the car, hate the current charging infrastructure. And the anxiety induced when power drops below 20% and you're approaching the next charger sucks, doubly so when you get there and it's broken and now you have to find another fast charger before you run out of juice. There's fancy route planning software (ABRP for example) that will try to minimize charging times and total travel time but it seems to make the assumption that you will always hit a perfectly functional fast charger and it doesn't seem to take weather into account. I was averaging 3 to 3.5 miles per kWh until I approached the Bay area in 100+ degree weather and it dropped to 2 miles per kWh. Fortunately having been burned many times already (every single Fred Meyer seemed to have a broken charger for example but the navigation software kept directing me to them), I had instituted a hard rule to always charge to 80%. So I made it to Richmond and the next charger before I ran out of power. America's clean electrical future remains a work in progress. So what you really seem to need is about ~400 miles of range which translates to ~300 miles of range at an 80% charge or so. I think we're getting there.
- spicybright 5y agoNot that you should have to, but have you tried a fuel efficient style of driving? I've been able to extend my gasoline + other's hybrids MPG quite a bit from it.
- varelse 5y agoDriving at ~50 mph IMO is not a practical driving style for a long trip on ~70 mph highways. But I do mostly set the adaptive cruise control and let it do the mileage management. When I drive around town I get between 4 and 5 miles per kWh doing exactly what you suggest.
- bartread 5y agoI don't hate this idea, but GP already added 3.5 - 4 hours to their trip just in charging. You really do have to start taking this stuff into account. I visit my parents who are ~200 miles away several times a year. The drive, during the day, averages 4 - 4.5 hours without stopping. At night it can come down to about 3 hours, but that's not always practical or - if I'm too tired - safe. Factoring in a charge along the way, assuming everything works, and I don't need to queue for a charger, would add 30 - 45 minutes. I'd have to do this because my parents live in a flat with no charging facilities onsite. Fuel efficient driving might add another 30 - 60 minutes to the journey, so suddenly we're into maybe a 5 - 6 hour drive each way even for the night driving option. Bearing in mind I'm often only able to go and visit them for a weekend, and that's a lot of time being sucked up just getting there and back. Shoddy charging infrastructure here in the UK is one of the main reasons I went plug-in hybrid in the end. I can charge at home overnight and do the journey to the office and back (not that I'm doing that very often) on electricity alone, and then the petrol engine is good for longer trips. Also, the car's pretty quick in "power" mode because it uses both electric and petrol together. (I'd also observe that fuel efficient driving can be aggravating for other road users and may not be practical or safe on some types/classifications of road.)
- rorykoehler 5y agoTesla should make a trailer with a huge battery in it for those with range anxiety for camping trips etc. You could haul your gear and never charge that way.
- jungturk 5y agoThat would be excellent. While they're at it, I'd like the opposite as well - most of my day-to-day driving is 20-30 miles and it'd be nice to not lug around a 200 mile battery for those trips.
- dreamcompiler 5y agoTo put this in perspective, a Tesla Model Y uses (per EPA rating) 270 WH per mile. Mercedes is targeting 166 or less. That would be a big accomplishment but I'm skeptical about what compromises will be needed to make it happen.
- ben7799 5y agoThe way M-B is and my cynicism about marketing I expect this car to be an utterly impractical concept car. Something like the Sunracer. Holds one person and you have to lie down in it. $1M carbon fiber chassis, etc.. uses a battery they can't make in production or something. 100 km/h top speed.
- Seanambers 5y agoThey could just make the top speed 30 km/h and then they would live up to their claims :) https://electrek.co/2017/08/04/a-tesla-model-s-100d-just-drove-670-miles-1078km-on-a-single-charge/ https://electrek.co/2017/08/04/a-tesla-model-s-100d-just-dro...
- rasz 5y agoYou describe VWs ambitious "supercar" from early 2000, XL1. https://www.carscoops.com/2021/07/vws-262-mpg-xl1-was-the-perfect-skinflints-supercar-heres-one-for-sale-and-what-its-like-to-drive/ https://www.carscoops.com/2021/07/vws-262-mpg-xl1-was-the-pe...
- spinny 5y agoI just love how the tesla fanboys forget that some of the charging station where they get their "clean" energy run on diesel generators. Is tesla really making any profit from charging stations or are there as a support network? Anyone has numbers on this?
- timbit42 5y agoYet they are still cleaner than ICE vehicles.