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Charging still takes a long time and has relatively low mileage. Hydrogen doesn't have that problem and in the end accounting for lithium mining destroying the

Charging still takes a long time and has relatively low mileage. Hydrogen doesn't have that problem and in the end accounting for lithium mining destroying the environment I still don't think it's that clear cut. EV just has more adoption because it's easier at this point and perks don't want to fall behind against Tesla. I also don't see how Toyota "deserves" to lose. When you take into consideration their longevity and fairly good track record on gas mileage...they are better than a lot of manufacturers that are now pushing hard for electric. People tend to forget that manufacturing a car and replacing a car wears on the environment just as much as driving it.

deelowe 5y ago
> relatively low mileage You can get a base model 3 today with 263 to 353 miles of range. That's upwards of 3-4 hours of driving with no breaks. Stop to take a break at a super charger for 30 minutes and you can do another 3-4 hours. How is this still no practical especially combined with all the time and money they save not having to do most routine maintenance.
- partiallypro 5y ago
  That also depends on passenger weight, or if you're hauling something. The new electric trucks plummet on mileage if they are carrying weight. I understand that gasoline vehicles do the same thing, but not at such a steep rate. I don't think a lot of commenters here have much experience living in rural environments. This doesn't even begin to touch on the ability to repair the vehicles.
  - NotSammyHagar 5y ago
    All vehicles plummet in range pulling heavy loads at high speed. You notice it more in a vehicle with careful range estimation, and slower refuling. If you need to drive 600 miles a day pulling a heavy trailer, EVs don't work for you right now. Similarly my wife's Toyota Camry does not work for that either.
  - chillwaves 5y ago
    I'm not trying to take sides, but electric cars seem vastly simpler from a mechanical perspective. I'm sure they have complicated electronics, but most modern cars do as well and those aren't components people typically work on. Just consider the electric vehicle has no transmission, no drive train, no oil. It doesn't have most of what cars have under the hood.
    - toomuchtodo 5y ago
      EVs have less than 20 moving parts in their drivetrain. Scheduled maintenance is brake fluid every few years (as it absorbs moisture over time), cabin air filter every 2-3 years, and tire rotations (~7k miles) and replacements (as needed). Brake pads and rotors under normal duty cycles should last the life of the vehicle due to aggressive regenerative braking (at least that's what Tesla is seeing).
    - drewzero1 5y ago
      Mechanically simpler, but (at least in Tesla's case) can be harder to get replacement parts for. Obviously their repair network isn't going to be as complete as a more established brand, but it doesn't really sound like they're prioritizing repairability at all.
      - nicoburns 5y ago
        That's true, but it seems to be an issue with Tesla as a company rather than electric vehicles as a product.
        drewzero1 5y ago
        Fair point. Unfortunately it's a trend I've already seen over the last decade with battery-operated power tools, and they-re a simplified and scaled-down version of electric car drivetrains. Pretty much all modern brushless power tools, while mechanically simpler than their brushed cousins, require a full motor and control module replacement when something as simple as the switch fails. Don't get me wrong, I do believe that electric propulsion is the future for efficient transport and that gas isn't a long-term solution going forward. It just seems to me the marketing and hype have gotten ahead of the current offerings, and I worry the 'scrap it and get a new one' approach employed often by tech companies will end up being applied to cars as well.
  - jclardy 5y ago
    > The new electric trucks plummet on mileage if they are carrying weight. Source? Supposedly the F-150 Lightning numbers are including 1000 lbs of cargo. So a full cabin of people still supposedly getting the stated 300 miles on a full charge (For the extended range.)
    - roflchoppa 5y ago
      Ohhh there was this YouTube video (from Motortend?) showing a model X in tow that had a drastic reduction in range when towing a trailer. Now compare that to the LandCruiser that we haul race cars with… the LC always gets 14 mpg, we have filled it with 6 adults going to Tahoe, same MPG. Haul a 2700lbs sports car. Doesn’t change at all. Honestly an EV would be nice for hauling stuff to the track, hopefully with the race car, and equipment it can make it to Willows on a single charge, at least the track has RV hookup points, can charge while you race.
      - outworlder 5y ago
        > Now compare that to the LandCruiser that we haul race cars with… the LC always gets 14 mpg, we have filled it with 6 adults going to Tahoe, same MPG. Haul a 2700lbs sports car. Doesn’t change at all. This is physically impossible unless the LandCruiser is just throwing energy away when empty. What's more likely is that this estimate is not very precise.
        bluGill 5y ago
        It is believable. Towing is more about wind resistance than about mass. A car on a trailer is probably sitting mostly in the slipstream of the LC (they are not very aerodynamically shaped) and so not contributing much to the total wind load. Also engines to a point become more efficient under load. All told, there probably isn't a noticeable difference. Of course we are talking about towing a light sports car here. Tow a different type off trailer, or a very heavy load and the losses will start to catch up.
        1123581321 5y ago
  - deelowe 5y ago
    I live and have lived in a "rural" environment for most of my life.
- jtbayly 5y ago
  Because there's not a supercharger across from every McDonalds and at every exit. I don't want to stop for food, order, wait, eat, get in the car, drive to who knows where for a charger, and then start charging for 30 minutes.
  - toomuchtodo 5y ago
    Well, give it time. As combustion vehicles are outlawed [1] and billions of dollars are poured into charging stations [2], early adopters will pave the path to get to the future you want. I've driven over 50k miles cross country in the US on Superchargers [3], and it's a pleasant experience using them and works for us (most of the time the car is done charging before we're done with our pit stop or grocery shopping). Happy to help drive forward innovation as a consumer (being the squeaky wheel demanding charging infra from any business I interact with that'll listen). See you in the future! (i am also advocating with policy makers to outlaw new petroleum filling station permits/infrastructure, but that is a topic for another thread. i am applying YC startup school lessons to public policy efforts. please excuse the dust while the electrification of transportation ramps) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase-out_of_fossil_fuel_vehicles#Places_with_planned_fossil-fuel_vehicle_bans https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase-out_of_fossil_fuel_vehic... [2] https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2021/04/22/fact-sheet-biden-administration-advances-electric-vehicle-charging-infrastructure/ https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases... [3] https://supercharge.info/map https://supercharge.info/map
  - bananabreakfast 5y ago
    Basically all superchargers are placed next to food and the major highways. It's not "who knows where". Your car knows where and its right off the interstate in a parking lot next to a lot of places to eat. Better than most gas stations actually. You want to eat while you charge? Get food next to your charger. They have already thought of all this when they were spending billions of dollars on building out charging infrastructure
    - skywhopper 5y ago
      Where do you live that this is the case?
- kingnothing 5y ago
  Model 3 owner here. In practice, I stop every 1.5 to 2 hours on road trips for a 10-20 minute charge. You're never going to realistically charge to 100% and drive to 0%. Staying in the 20% to 80% range is ideal for fast charging purposes and some breathing room in case of emergency.
  - deelowe 5y ago
    Standard or long range? To me, this seems pretty close to being practical. Driving for 2 hours and then stopping for 10-20 minutes is about where I'd prefer to be on long trips.
    - kingnothing 5y ago
      Mine's long range and I find it to be pretty practical. I definitely stop more often than I did in my ICE cars but it doesn't bother me to be forced to stretch my legs, use the restroom, and watch a bit of Netflix in the car or play on my phone. Edit: On the plus side, charging at home at night every evening is really nice compared to a weekly gas station visit.
    - guerby 5y ago
      My TM3 SR+ (USA made in 2019) latest supercharge was 10 minutes to add 17 kWh going from just under 20% to 54%. Charge started a 143 kW (on a 150 kW unshared charger) and I ended it 10 minutes later while it was at 80 kW. This was enough to drive 130km to home (non highway) with about 20% battery left so 130 Wh/km. When I travel on highway I stop at all superchargers, they're usually 1h to 2h of highway driving apart in my country (France), so similar experience.
  - notJim 5y ago
    2 hours is only like 100 miles of driving. Wouldn't it make more sense to run the battery down further, since charging is faster at a lower state of charge?
Retric 5y ago
As long as we are talking hypothetically and pilot projects, unlike hydrogen you can charge EV’s at highway speeds for unlimited range. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_road https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_road As to the current infrastructure, plugging in nightly works for most people most of the time. Spending an extra 15 minutes charging for long trips is hardly a big deal. People tend to go inside for drinks walk around etc which eats into the time lost.
- adventured 5y ago
  Adding to that, it's also worth noting that the battery segment of all-electric EVs has improved considerably over the past 20 years. The charging times per mile of distance will drop further and the range of the vehicles will continue to improve. The Toyota hydrogen arguments often intentionally ignore that the current approach to EV batteries is an improving target, despite that it's already good enough to take over the market as is.
- idownvoted 5y ago
  Sorry for the snark, but inductive charging is never [1] going to happen. If there's one constant in all of infrastructure history, it is that the utility of a new infrastructure is determined by beating the already existing one. Even taxpayer pockets can't fix that. Imagine tearing up all roads, installing chargers underneath for hundreds of miles, from equipment that is very likely to break earlier than thought and is very expensive to repair (blocking the road, dangerous for repair-workers, tearing up road again), works in a very inefficient manner, as every single charging unit is going on and off very quickly (a lot of wear and tear) and is still likely to sit idle >60% of the day. [1] not in our lifetimes
bryanlarsen 5y ago
Hydrogen absolutely does have this problem. A fast hydrogen fill requires the hydrogen to be at super high pressure, a typical hydrogen station can only do three fast fills per hour. Not to mention the time you take driving way out of your road to get to the very limited number of stations, if there are any.
- Clubber 5y ago
  You can swap out hydrogen tanks a lot more easily than you can swap out batteries. Something to consider. Lol. All the downvotes. It's like I said something bad about Apple 10 years ago. All hail Elon, dear leader.
  - theshrike79 5y ago
    Theoretically you can swap anything easily. I wouldn't want my container on high pressure explosive gas be swapped from some DIY dudes car.
    - Clubber 5y ago
      Like a gas grill I would suspect. The issue with swapping out batteries is they are friggin' heavy when they are that big.
  - mdorazio 5y ago
    No, you really can't. In order to make high-pressure hydrogen tanks in passenger vehicles safe in crashes they are embedded deeply inside the chassis and are much bigger and more difficult to access than you seem to be thinking. There is absolutely no way to swap the tank on a Toyota Mirai, for example, without taking the car mostly apart. Take a look at [1] to see where the tanks are actually placed. [1] https://www.thedrive.com/news/37872/now-with-three-hydrogen-tanks-the-2021-toyota-mirai-gets-a-400-mile-range https://www.thedrive.com/news/37872/now-with-three-hydrogen-...
    - Clubber 5y ago
rcMgD2BwE72F 5y ago
>Hydrogen doesn't have that problem and in the end accounting for lithium mining destroying the environment I still don't think it's that clear cut. 99% of the hydrogen currently produced come from natural gas. Of course, it could be made from water but lithium can also be extracted cleanly from clay with with table salt. Besides, making hydrogen from water uses over 3 times the energy required to make and charging a battery (the well-to-wheel efficiency of hydrogen vehicles is that low). So for now and the foreseeable future, hydrogen is far worst for the environment than Li-Ion batteries.
- adrian_b 5y ago
  Moreover, room-temperature fuel cells require platinum-group metal catalysts and this is the main reason that has prevented the introduction of vehicles with fuel cells. High-temperature fuel cells do not need expensive catalysts, but it seems that nobody succeeded to reach acceptable lifetimes for them.
  - Mirioron 5y ago
    On the other hand, if the fuel cells contain expensive materials then we're more likely to actually recycle them.
mbgerring 5y ago
> "lithium mining destroying the environment" 1. Any environmental impact from lithium mining needs to be weighed against the impact of continued extraction and burning of fossil fuels 2. Lithium is recyclable (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-019-1682-5 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-019-1682-5) and there is room for a lot of process improvement in lithium extraction (https://arstechnica.com/cars/2021/07/general-motors-looks-to-california-for-its-next-lithium-supply/ https://arstechnica.com/cars/2021/07/general-motors-looks-to...) 3. Studies of the lifecycle emissions (emissions including manufacturing) of electric cars consistently find that EVs beat ICE vehicles, and future lifecycle emissions must be considered as a curve, as the percentage of renewables on the electric grid increases and industrial process eventually move away from fossil fuels (https://www.carbonbrief.org/factcheck-how-electric-vehicles-help-to-tackle-climate-change https://www.carbonbrief.org/factcheck-how-electric-vehicles-...)
- Mirioron 5y ago
  >1. Any environmental impact from lithium mining needs to be weighed against the impact of continued extraction and burning of fossil fuels Why? If we're comparing EVs and hydrogen powered cars then we shouldn't. We should compare lithium usage to what hydrogen powered cars need. >2. Lithium is recyclable But do we actually recycle lithium in enough quantities? >Currently, globally, it's very hard to get detailed figures for what percentage of lithium-ion batteries are recycled, but the value everyone quotes is about 5%," says Dr Anderson. "In some parts of the world it's considerably less." https://www.bbc.com/news/business-56574779 https://www.bbc.com/news/business-56574779 Lithium-ion batteries can be the most recyclable thing in the world, but if we don't actually recycle them then it makes no difference.
  - loufe 5y ago
    There are quite a few stories about companies and research groups gunning for increasingly high lithium extraction from spent batteries. We're not there yet, but leave it to an open market to extract something of value as efficiently as possible from an effectively free resource.
voidfunc 5y ago
How are urban car owners with street parking going to charge EV's is also a great question. There's zero infrastructure in place for that and it will be expensive when it does come.
- beardyw 5y ago
  Yes, in the UK it will be a massive problem. But practical issues seem to be irrelevant to those making policies.
  - theshrike79 5y ago
    1300 street lights already converted as chargers: https://www.fleeteurope.com/en/new-energies/europe/analysis/1300-street-lights-converted-ev-chargers-london https://www.fleeteurope.com/en/new-energies/europe/analysis/...
    - chrisseaton 5y ago
      Seems like there's a lot less street lights than cars. Really, people should just have fewer cars.
      - CyberDildonics 5y ago
        Overly simplistic nonsense like this does not add to a discussion
- mlonkibjuyhv 5y ago
  Well the infrastructure certainly needs to be built, but the solution is straight forward. You just place slow charging stations where the cars are parked overnight.
- acdha 5y ago
  1. Many owners run a cord from their house — this can be solved with a modest update to city codes and maybe a trenching service to help run lines under sidewalks. 2. Street lights have power lines and it seems like that infrastructure can be reused: https://metroenergy.org/programs/current-projects/streetlight-ev-charging/faq-streetlight-ev-charging/ https://metroenergy.org/programs/current-projects/streetligh... 3. We should be doing everything possible to discourage urban car ownership — EVs still make the city more expensive for everyone else, hurt people, pollute (tire, brake, sound), and require far more space than any other form of transportation.
cameldrv 5y ago
This is becoming less true every year. Tesla now has 250kW superchargers, and there are even 350kW CCS chargers starting to be installed. In practice, for a Model 3, this means that you can charge the battery up to about half in 15 minutes. For a long day of driving, say, 700 miles, assuming charging available at both ends, this means two charging stops of 15 minutes each instead of one gas stop of 5 minutes. IMO while this can always be improved, this is now at the "good enough" point for long distance driving. Obviously to make this a true reality, there needs to be widespread charging available in parking lots, and more 250kW Superchargers, but progress towards this is rapid.
- throwawayboise 5y ago
  That is IF the charger is available when you want it and you don't need to wait 15-30 minutes for the car that's ahead of you to charge. Maybe rare now, but unless chargers keep building out at or greater than the pace of EV sales, it will become a bottleneck. It happens now with gas stations at busy interchanges, but generally a car can fill up and move in < 5 minutes.
usaar333 5y ago
> Charging still takes a long time Barring roadtrips, charging at home costs about 30s. Even factoring the longer time supercharging on roadtrips (relative to gas), I'm confident I spend far less total time charging my EV than filling my gas tank.
- bluGill 5y ago
  30 seconds per day times 30 days is 900 seconds or about 15 minutes per month spent charging. How much time do you spend filling gas per month?
  - usaar333 5y ago
    You don't need to charge an EV every day... On a model 3 range, you maybe change 3x as often as fill up. Gas is a 10 minute overhead generally. So 90s vs 10 minutes per 400 miles or so.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - beerandt 5y ago
    Not only that but counting fill up time against gas, while not counting all charging time against EV is hardly apples to apples. If the justification is doing something productive with that time, then washing your windshield or going into the C-store to get a snack and a drink shouldn't count as gas up time. I get that progress is being made, but the contortions required to prove that the status quo is "good enough" are frustrating, at best. The best way to get a person to commit to an ice vehicle for life is to mislead them into committing to an EV before it or the infrastructure suits their needs.
    - emilecantin 5y ago
      When I get home, I plug in my car and then go do something else "productive". When I need my car, I unplug it and go. Both of these operations take about 10s each (because I like coiling the cable nicely). Contrast that with the experience at a gas station, where I have to stand awkwardly next to my car while I keep my hand on the pump handle (there are no "locks" on the handles anymore), then wait in line inside the store to pay while the old lady in front of me buys a gazillion lottery tickets in pennies (tongue-in-cheek, but hey, it happens). Not having to do that every week is very nice, IMO. Then you have the roadtrip experience, where yes, you have to wait a bit while you charge, but it's a lot less of a problem than people think. I did a roadtrip in a Tesla back in 2015 with 3 other guys. We did Montreal - Atlanta for a conference, and we were driving non-stop, changing drivers every time we charged. There were maybe 2 stops total where it was inconvenient because we had to wait in the car, but the dozen others were often longer than the car wanted because we found a nice restaurant / café. Again, this was in 2015. 6 years later, I imagine it's improved a lot.
outworlder 5y ago
> Charging still takes a long time and has relatively low mileage. Hydrogen doesn't have that problem Hydrogen has SO MANY other problems though it's not even funny. It's incredibly hard to store. We literally have devised no containers that can hold it long term, as the molecules are so small they seep through. As they do so, they embrittle said containers, which need to be then replaced. It's not energy dense. So we either have to compress it (wasting energy) or liquefy it(not viable for cars, without even accounting for boil off). Then you need the whole 'manufacturing' (as there's no free hydrogen on Earth) - probably from fossil fuels. You need to transport it to where it's going to be used. And you need to create and entire new fuel infrastructure. The current fossil fuel industry likes this for obvious reasons. For all the talk on the lack of EV charging infrastructure, up to level 2 all we need are glorified relays. Electricity is available even in places we have no gas infrastructure. And then, what are we doing with hydrogen? Using it on fuel cells... to produce electricity. Just skip the middle man and charge batteries directly.
- m4rtink 5y ago
  Even liquid hydrogen with all its added problems due to the ultra low temperatures needed has very low density - that's why all hydrogen powered rockets are so massive. Even in liquid form the hydrogen tank is massive with a tiny liquid oxygen tank next to it (Delta IV, Ariane V, H II, Shuttle external tank). The extra tankage weight and added aerodynamic drag remove quite some of the adventages of the otherwise good specific impulse hydrolox has.
_ph_ 5y ago
Range and recharging speed of electric cars are pretty close to what hydrogen cars offer. But there is a catch: you don't have to go to fuel stations to charge your electric car. Anywhere where there is electricity, e.g. at home or at any business, it is trivially easy to add chargers, starting at a few hundred dollars. Which means, most electric cars will have to go to charging stations only on road trips. With hydrogen, you have to stop at a fuel station for every single refill. (Not to mention that "green" hydrogen requires at least 3x as much energy as plain electric cars)
- Scea91 5y ago
  It is not trivially easy to add chargers. The energy needs to come from somewhere and be transported to the charger via some infrastructure. Sure, currently when there is an odd charger here and there it is not an issue, but if we want to scale it it will require huge investment into the grid. Not saying it is impossible, but it is not trivially easy.

deelowe 5y ago

> relatively low mileage You can get a base model 3 today with 263 to 353 miles of range. That's upwards of 3-4 hours of driving with no breaks. Stop to take a break at a super charger for 30 minutes and you can do another 3-4 hours. How is this still no practical especially combined with all the time and money they save not having to do most routine maintenance.

partiallypro 5y ago
That also depends on passenger weight, or if you're hauling something. The new electric trucks plummet on mileage if they are carrying weight. I understand that gasoline vehicles do the same thing, but not at such a steep rate. I don't think a lot of commenters here have much experience living in rural environments. This doesn't even begin to touch on the ability to repair the vehicles.
- NotSammyHagar 5y ago
  All vehicles plummet in range pulling heavy loads at high speed. You notice it more in a vehicle with careful range estimation, and slower refuling. If you need to drive 600 miles a day pulling a heavy trailer, EVs don't work for you right now. Similarly my wife's Toyota Camry does not work for that either.
- chillwaves 5y ago
  I'm not trying to take sides, but electric cars seem vastly simpler from a mechanical perspective. I'm sure they have complicated electronics, but most modern cars do as well and those aren't components people typically work on. Just consider the electric vehicle has no transmission, no drive train, no oil. It doesn't have most of what cars have under the hood.
  - toomuchtodo 5y ago
    EVs have less than 20 moving parts in their drivetrain. Scheduled maintenance is brake fluid every few years (as it absorbs moisture over time), cabin air filter every 2-3 years, and tire rotations (~7k miles) and replacements (as needed). Brake pads and rotors under normal duty cycles should last the life of the vehicle due to aggressive regenerative braking (at least that's what Tesla is seeing).
  - drewzero1 5y ago
    Mechanically simpler, but (at least in Tesla's case) can be harder to get replacement parts for. Obviously their repair network isn't going to be as complete as a more established brand, but it doesn't really sound like they're prioritizing repairability at all.
    - nicoburns 5y ago
      That's true, but it seems to be an issue with Tesla as a company rather than electric vehicles as a product.
      - drewzero1 5y ago
        Fair point. Unfortunately it's a trend I've already seen over the last decade with battery-operated power tools, and they-re a simplified and scaled-down version of electric car drivetrains. Pretty much all modern brushless power tools, while mechanically simpler than their brushed cousins, require a full motor and control module replacement when something as simple as the switch fails. Don't get me wrong, I do believe that electric propulsion is the future for efficient transport and that gas isn't a long-term solution going forward. It just seems to me the marketing and hype have gotten ahead of the current offerings, and I worry the 'scrap it and get a new one' approach employed often by tech companies will end up being applied to cars as well.
- jclardy 5y ago
  > The new electric trucks plummet on mileage if they are carrying weight. Source? Supposedly the F-150 Lightning numbers are including 1000 lbs of cargo. So a full cabin of people still supposedly getting the stated 300 miles on a full charge (For the extended range.)
  - roflchoppa 5y ago
    Ohhh there was this YouTube video (from Motortend?) showing a model X in tow that had a drastic reduction in range when towing a trailer. Now compare that to the LandCruiser that we haul race cars with… the LC always gets 14 mpg, we have filled it with 6 adults going to Tahoe, same MPG. Haul a 2700lbs sports car. Doesn’t change at all. Honestly an EV would be nice for hauling stuff to the track, hopefully with the race car, and equipment it can make it to Willows on a single charge, at least the track has RV hookup points, can charge while you race.
    - outworlder 5y ago
      > Now compare that to the LandCruiser that we haul race cars with… the LC always gets 14 mpg, we have filled it with 6 adults going to Tahoe, same MPG. Haul a 2700lbs sports car. Doesn’t change at all. This is physically impossible unless the LandCruiser is just throwing energy away when empty. What's more likely is that this estimate is not very precise.
      - bluGill 5y ago
        It is believable. Towing is more about wind resistance than about mass. A car on a trailer is probably sitting mostly in the slipstream of the LC (they are not very aerodynamically shaped) and so not contributing much to the total wind load. Also engines to a point become more efficient under load. All told, there probably isn't a noticeable difference. Of course we are talking about towing a light sports car here. Tow a different type off trailer, or a very heavy load and the losses will start to catch up.
        1123581321 5y ago
- deelowe 5y ago
  I live and have lived in a "rural" environment for most of my life.
jtbayly 5y ago
Because there's not a supercharger across from every McDonalds and at every exit. I don't want to stop for food, order, wait, eat, get in the car, drive to who knows where for a charger, and then start charging for 30 minutes.
- toomuchtodo 5y ago
  Well, give it time. As combustion vehicles are outlawed [1] and billions of dollars are poured into charging stations [2], early adopters will pave the path to get to the future you want. I've driven over 50k miles cross country in the US on Superchargers [3], and it's a pleasant experience using them and works for us (most of the time the car is done charging before we're done with our pit stop or grocery shopping). Happy to help drive forward innovation as a consumer (being the squeaky wheel demanding charging infra from any business I interact with that'll listen). See you in the future! (i am also advocating with policy makers to outlaw new petroleum filling station permits/infrastructure, but that is a topic for another thread. i am applying YC startup school lessons to public policy efforts. please excuse the dust while the electrification of transportation ramps) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase-out_of_fossil_fuel_vehicles#Places_with_planned_fossil-fuel_vehicle_bans https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase-out_of_fossil_fuel_vehic... [2] https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2021/04/22/fact-sheet-biden-administration-advances-electric-vehicle-charging-infrastructure/ https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases... [3] https://supercharge.info/map https://supercharge.info/map
- bananabreakfast 5y ago
  Basically all superchargers are placed next to food and the major highways. It's not "who knows where". Your car knows where and its right off the interstate in a parking lot next to a lot of places to eat. Better than most gas stations actually. You want to eat while you charge? Get food next to your charger. They have already thought of all this when they were spending billions of dollars on building out charging infrastructure
  - skywhopper 5y ago
    Where do you live that this is the case?
kingnothing 5y ago
Model 3 owner here. In practice, I stop every 1.5 to 2 hours on road trips for a 10-20 minute charge. You're never going to realistically charge to 100% and drive to 0%. Staying in the 20% to 80% range is ideal for fast charging purposes and some breathing room in case of emergency.
- deelowe 5y ago
  Standard or long range? To me, this seems pretty close to being practical. Driving for 2 hours and then stopping for 10-20 minutes is about where I'd prefer to be on long trips.
  - kingnothing 5y ago
    Mine's long range and I find it to be pretty practical. I definitely stop more often than I did in my ICE cars but it doesn't bother me to be forced to stretch my legs, use the restroom, and watch a bit of Netflix in the car or play on my phone. Edit: On the plus side, charging at home at night every evening is really nice compared to a weekly gas station visit.
  - guerby 5y ago
    My TM3 SR+ (USA made in 2019) latest supercharge was 10 minutes to add 17 kWh going from just under 20% to 54%. Charge started a 143 kW (on a 150 kW unshared charger) and I ended it 10 minutes later while it was at 80 kW. This was enough to drive 130km to home (non highway) with about 20% battery left so 130 Wh/km. When I travel on highway I stop at all superchargers, they're usually 1h to 2h of highway driving apart in my country (France), so similar experience.
- notJim 5y ago
  2 hours is only like 100 miles of driving. Wouldn't it make more sense to run the battery down further, since charging is faster at a lower state of charge?

Retric 5y ago

As long as we are talking hypothetically and pilot projects, unlike hydrogen you can charge EV’s at highway speeds for unlimited range. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_road https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_road As to the current infrastructure, plugging in nightly works for most people most of the time. Spending an extra 15 minutes charging for long trips is hardly a big deal. People tend to go inside for drinks walk around etc which eats into the time lost.

adventured 5y ago
Adding to that, it's also worth noting that the battery segment of all-electric EVs has improved considerably over the past 20 years. The charging times per mile of distance will drop further and the range of the vehicles will continue to improve. The Toyota hydrogen arguments often intentionally ignore that the current approach to EV batteries is an improving target, despite that it's already good enough to take over the market as is.
idownvoted 5y ago
Sorry for the snark, but inductive charging is never [1] going to happen. If there's one constant in all of infrastructure history, it is that the utility of a new infrastructure is determined by beating the already existing one. Even taxpayer pockets can't fix that. Imagine tearing up all roads, installing chargers underneath for hundreds of miles, from equipment that is very likely to break earlier than thought and is very expensive to repair (blocking the road, dangerous for repair-workers, tearing up road again), works in a very inefficient manner, as every single charging unit is going on and off very quickly (a lot of wear and tear) and is still likely to sit idle >60% of the day. [1] not in our lifetimes

bryanlarsen 5y ago

Hydrogen absolutely does have this problem. A fast hydrogen fill requires the hydrogen to be at super high pressure, a typical hydrogen station can only do three fast fills per hour. Not to mention the time you take driving way out of your road to get to the very limited number of stations, if there are any.

Clubber 5y ago
You can swap out hydrogen tanks a lot more easily than you can swap out batteries. Something to consider. Lol. All the downvotes. It's like I said something bad about Apple 10 years ago. All hail Elon, dear leader.
- theshrike79 5y ago
  Theoretically you can swap anything easily. I wouldn't want my container on high pressure explosive gas be swapped from some DIY dudes car.
  - Clubber 5y ago
    Like a gas grill I would suspect. The issue with swapping out batteries is they are friggin' heavy when they are that big.
- mdorazio 5y ago
  No, you really can't. In order to make high-pressure hydrogen tanks in passenger vehicles safe in crashes they are embedded deeply inside the chassis and are much bigger and more difficult to access than you seem to be thinking. There is absolutely no way to swap the tank on a Toyota Mirai, for example, without taking the car mostly apart. Take a look at [1] to see where the tanks are actually placed. [1] https://www.thedrive.com/news/37872/now-with-three-hydrogen-tanks-the-2021-toyota-mirai-gets-a-400-mile-range https://www.thedrive.com/news/37872/now-with-three-hydrogen-...
  - Clubber 5y ago

rcMgD2BwE72F 5y ago

>Hydrogen doesn't have that problem and in the end accounting for lithium mining destroying the environment I still don't think it's that clear cut. 99% of the hydrogen currently produced come from natural gas. Of course, it could be made from water but lithium can also be extracted cleanly from clay with with table salt. Besides, making hydrogen from water uses over 3 times the energy required to make and charging a battery (the well-to-wheel efficiency of hydrogen vehicles is that low). So for now and the foreseeable future, hydrogen is far worst for the environment than Li-Ion batteries.

adrian_b 5y ago
Moreover, room-temperature fuel cells require platinum-group metal catalysts and this is the main reason that has prevented the introduction of vehicles with fuel cells. High-temperature fuel cells do not need expensive catalysts, but it seems that nobody succeeded to reach acceptable lifetimes for them.
- Mirioron 5y ago
  On the other hand, if the fuel cells contain expensive materials then we're more likely to actually recycle them.

mbgerring 5y ago

> "lithium mining destroying the environment" 1. Any environmental impact from lithium mining needs to be weighed against the impact of continued extraction and burning of fossil fuels 2. Lithium is recyclable (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-019-1682-5 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-019-1682-5) and there is room for a lot of process improvement in lithium extraction (https://arstechnica.com/cars/2021/07/general-motors-looks-to-california-for-its-next-lithium-supply/ https://arstechnica.com/cars/2021/07/general-motors-looks-to...) 3. Studies of the lifecycle emissions (emissions including manufacturing) of electric cars consistently find that EVs beat ICE vehicles, and future lifecycle emissions must be considered as a curve, as the percentage of renewables on the electric grid increases and industrial process eventually move away from fossil fuels (https://www.carbonbrief.org/factcheck-how-electric-vehicles-help-to-tackle-climate-change https://www.carbonbrief.org/factcheck-how-electric-vehicles-...)

Mirioron 5y ago
>1. Any environmental impact from lithium mining needs to be weighed against the impact of continued extraction and burning of fossil fuels Why? If we're comparing EVs and hydrogen powered cars then we shouldn't. We should compare lithium usage to what hydrogen powered cars need. >2. Lithium is recyclable But do we actually recycle lithium in enough quantities? >Currently, globally, it's very hard to get detailed figures for what percentage of lithium-ion batteries are recycled, but the value everyone quotes is about 5%," says Dr Anderson. "In some parts of the world it's considerably less." https://www.bbc.com/news/business-56574779 https://www.bbc.com/news/business-56574779 Lithium-ion batteries can be the most recyclable thing in the world, but if we don't actually recycle them then it makes no difference.
- loufe 5y ago
  There are quite a few stories about companies and research groups gunning for increasingly high lithium extraction from spent batteries. We're not there yet, but leave it to an open market to extract something of value as efficiently as possible from an effectively free resource.

voidfunc 5y ago

How are urban car owners with street parking going to charge EV's is also a great question. There's zero infrastructure in place for that and it will be expensive when it does come.

beardyw 5y ago
Yes, in the UK it will be a massive problem. But practical issues seem to be irrelevant to those making policies.
- theshrike79 5y ago
  1300 street lights already converted as chargers: https://www.fleeteurope.com/en/new-energies/europe/analysis/1300-street-lights-converted-ev-chargers-london https://www.fleeteurope.com/en/new-energies/europe/analysis/...
  - chrisseaton 5y ago
    Seems like there's a lot less street lights than cars. Really, people should just have fewer cars.
    - CyberDildonics 5y ago
      Overly simplistic nonsense like this does not add to a discussion
mlonkibjuyhv 5y ago
Well the infrastructure certainly needs to be built, but the solution is straight forward. You just place slow charging stations where the cars are parked overnight.
acdha 5y ago
1. Many owners run a cord from their house — this can be solved with a modest update to city codes and maybe a trenching service to help run lines under sidewalks. 2. Street lights have power lines and it seems like that infrastructure can be reused: https://metroenergy.org/programs/current-projects/streetlight-ev-charging/faq-streetlight-ev-charging/ https://metroenergy.org/programs/current-projects/streetligh... 3. We should be doing everything possible to discourage urban car ownership — EVs still make the city more expensive for everyone else, hurt people, pollute (tire, brake, sound), and require far more space than any other form of transportation.

cameldrv 5y ago

This is becoming less true every year. Tesla now has 250kW superchargers, and there are even 350kW CCS chargers starting to be installed. In practice, for a Model 3, this means that you can charge the battery up to about half in 15 minutes. For a long day of driving, say, 700 miles, assuming charging available at both ends, this means two charging stops of 15 minutes each instead of one gas stop of 5 minutes. IMO while this can always be improved, this is now at the "good enough" point for long distance driving. Obviously to make this a true reality, there needs to be widespread charging available in parking lots, and more 250kW Superchargers, but progress towards this is rapid.

throwawayboise 5y ago
That is IF the charger is available when you want it and you don't need to wait 15-30 minutes for the car that's ahead of you to charge. Maybe rare now, but unless chargers keep building out at or greater than the pace of EV sales, it will become a bottleneck. It happens now with gas stations at busy interchanges, but generally a car can fill up and move in < 5 minutes.

usaar333 5y ago

> Charging still takes a long time Barring roadtrips, charging at home costs about 30s. Even factoring the longer time supercharging on roadtrips (relative to gas), I'm confident I spend far less total time charging my EV than filling my gas tank.

bluGill 5y ago
30 seconds per day times 30 days is 900 seconds or about 15 minutes per month spent charging. How much time do you spend filling gas per month?
- usaar333 5y ago
  You don't need to charge an EV every day... On a model 3 range, you maybe change 3x as often as fill up. Gas is a 10 minute overhead generally. So 90s vs 10 minutes per 400 miles or so.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- beerandt 5y ago
  Not only that but counting fill up time against gas, while not counting all charging time against EV is hardly apples to apples. If the justification is doing something productive with that time, then washing your windshield or going into the C-store to get a snack and a drink shouldn't count as gas up time. I get that progress is being made, but the contortions required to prove that the status quo is "good enough" are frustrating, at best. The best way to get a person to commit to an ice vehicle for life is to mislead them into committing to an EV before it or the infrastructure suits their needs.
  - emilecantin 5y ago
    When I get home, I plug in my car and then go do something else "productive". When I need my car, I unplug it and go. Both of these operations take about 10s each (because I like coiling the cable nicely). Contrast that with the experience at a gas station, where I have to stand awkwardly next to my car while I keep my hand on the pump handle (there are no "locks" on the handles anymore), then wait in line inside the store to pay while the old lady in front of me buys a gazillion lottery tickets in pennies (tongue-in-cheek, but hey, it happens). Not having to do that every week is very nice, IMO. Then you have the roadtrip experience, where yes, you have to wait a bit while you charge, but it's a lot less of a problem than people think. I did a roadtrip in a Tesla back in 2015 with 3 other guys. We did Montreal - Atlanta for a conference, and we were driving non-stop, changing drivers every time we charged. There were maybe 2 stops total where it was inconvenient because we had to wait in the car, but the dozen others were often longer than the car wanted because we found a nice restaurant / café. Again, this was in 2015. 6 years later, I imagine it's improved a lot.

outworlder 5y ago

> Charging still takes a long time and has relatively low mileage. Hydrogen doesn't have that problem Hydrogen has SO MANY other problems though it's not even funny. It's incredibly hard to store. We literally have devised no containers that can hold it long term, as the molecules are so small they seep through. As they do so, they embrittle said containers, which need to be then replaced. It's not energy dense. So we either have to compress it (wasting energy) or liquefy it(not viable for cars, without even accounting for boil off). Then you need the whole 'manufacturing' (as there's no free hydrogen on Earth) - probably from fossil fuels. You need to transport it to where it's going to be used. And you need to create and entire new fuel infrastructure. The current fossil fuel industry likes this for obvious reasons. For all the talk on the lack of EV charging infrastructure, up to level 2 all we need are glorified relays. Electricity is available even in places we have no gas infrastructure. And then, what are we doing with hydrogen? Using it on fuel cells... to produce electricity. Just skip the middle man and charge batteries directly.

m4rtink 5y ago
Even liquid hydrogen with all its added problems due to the ultra low temperatures needed has very low density - that's why all hydrogen powered rockets are so massive. Even in liquid form the hydrogen tank is massive with a tiny liquid oxygen tank next to it (Delta IV, Ariane V, H II, Shuttle external tank). The extra tankage weight and added aerodynamic drag remove quite some of the adventages of the otherwise good specific impulse hydrolox has.

_ph_ 5y ago

Range and recharging speed of electric cars are pretty close to what hydrogen cars offer. But there is a catch: you don't have to go to fuel stations to charge your electric car. Anywhere where there is electricity, e.g. at home or at any business, it is trivially easy to add chargers, starting at a few hundred dollars. Which means, most electric cars will have to go to charging stations only on road trips. With hydrogen, you have to stop at a fuel station for every single refill. (Not to mention that "green" hydrogen requires at least 3x as much energy as plain electric cars)

Scea91 5y ago
It is not trivially easy to add chargers. The energy needs to come from somewhere and be transported to the charger via some infrastructure. Sure, currently when there is an odd charger here and there it is not an issue, but if we want to scale it it will require huge investment into the grid. Not saying it is impossible, but it is not trivially easy.