13 ms·

Instead of everybody jumping on bandwagon and siding with every legislature to be PC, individuals and companies have right to challenge those laws or on how pra

Instead of everybody jumping on bandwagon and siding with every legislature to be PC, individuals and companies have right to challenge those laws or on how practical they are. These challenges will naturally yield better laws considering the huge wave already behind the electric vehicles. "Toyota’s Indian subsidiary publicly criticized India’s target for 100 percent electric vehicle sales by 2030, saying it was not practical.", the keyword being not practical, country which struggles with electricity during summer and rations farmers electricity is legislating 100% electric?

Zigurd 5y ago
Those laws won't be better if all this amounts to is special pleading to not obsolete Toyota's R&D and capex in gas engines. India also "struggles" with petroleum infrastructure, safe handling, pollution, etc.
btgeekboy 5y ago
Sounds like they’ll be able to leverage that legislation to encourage grid improvements.
- Causality1 5y ago
  Just like Google Stadia made ISPs stop having data caps?
- dylan604 5y ago
  Myabe they can hire Enron to build them more gas power plants to not use.
WillDaSilva 5y ago
You're right that challenging legislature can improve it, but it would be naive to assume that Toyota has the goal of improving it for anyone/anything other than their bottom line. They are solely driven by their profit motive, and so it is safe to assume they are never participating in the legislative process in good faith, i.e. for the betterment of the public and the world. Instead they are only participating in the legislative process with the expectation that they can gain additional power and profit. Once we take that into consideration, it's hard to see their pushback against electric vehicles in a good light.
- djanogo 5y ago
  Whole lot of assumptions of what Toyota is, we can replace "Toyota" in your comment with most of the companies in SPY and it would sound very similar, lot of people have similar or more assumptions about Tesla, current opinion set to current submarine location.
  - cmrdporcupine 5y ago
    At this point it is not Tesla vs the rest of the industry. The other two of the 3 biggest manufacturers, GM and VW, are both intensely invested in battery electric vehicles. Among the big players it is only Toyota playing this FUD game now (even Mazda who were panning BEVs for a long time seems to have decided to do some EV stuff, even if it looks a bit mediocre). Elon was smart to see the potential early on. But GM also started around the same time with the original Volt (which is still an awesome vehicle.)
    - takeda 5y ago
      I would argue it wasn't just that Elon was smart to see that potential, he created it. He showed that it was possible to have a fully electric call that is usable and attractive looking. Before Tesla, existing car manufacturers made cars with low range that were fugly looking, probably trying to show regulating bodies that no one would be interested in electric cars.
  - this2shallPass 5y ago
    > we can replace "Toyota" in your comment with most of the companies in SPY and it would sound very similar Yes. Does this make the previous comment any less true? I'd say it's likely neutral or might even make it more true.
  - sitkack 5y ago
    Because the statement could apply, doesn't mean it is or needs to. The argument was directed at Toyota specifically. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism Toyota is the largest car manufacturer in the world. They should not be partaking in these behaviors.
standardUser 5y ago
And how practical is unmitigated climate change? These things aren't occurring in a vacuum, or just to "be PC". This is way beyond urgent and extreme action is necessary.
- rscoots 5y ago
  PC is a poor descriptor, and yes urgent and extreme action is necessary. But why does that action have to include going 100% electric on an impractical timeline? Surely there are debateble aspects to this approach, and probably other sources of carbon emission that can be more easily reduced, thereby allowing for at least some gas cars. Do you really believe the entire country of India will be selling no gas powered cars by 2030? Surely this is just an overly-aggressive starting point by governments that they can further bargain on?
  - revscat 5y ago
    Because the “practical” timeline was one started 30 years ago. But proposals were met then with the exact same “now let’s not be hasty” counterarguments. The more time that elapses, the more drastic actions are required, no matter how painful.
    - rscoots 5y ago
      >no matter how painful. Why put unnecessary strain on your society to get from a 90% reduction to a 100% reduction if there are other initiatives that can be more easily accomplished and make that 10% look like small peanuts in comparison? The answer is no one is gonna actually do this and this specific 100% number is just Govt and Businesses cynically trying to bargain.
      - anigbrowl 5y ago
        I notice you are not listing any of these much easier to accomplish objectives. To be honest, I'm not very interested in your theory of public bargaining. Could you specify a few of the big ideas that you think will make a bigger difference over the next decade?
eldaisfish 5y ago
that comment is spot on. India is a country that struggles with distributing electrical energy. EVs there are nothing but a pipe dream or a plaything for the rich. In the average western country where almost everyone has their electrical energy needs met, EVs do not have a technological limitation to adoption.
- Noos 5y ago
  Not really sure, we have our needs met for now, but most people having EVS would be a huge constraint drain on the power. I honestly feel what will happen instead is just that cars become too expensive to drive period, with only a relatively few owning private vehicles. A lot of people are surviving on 20 year old cars mostly.
  - NotSammyHagar 5y ago
    Not in the us. Most charging can take place at night, using unused capacity. The only real impediment to almost universal EV use in the us is lack of easy charging for those who park on the street.
- rcMgD2BwE72F 5y ago
  Investing in EV will improve the grid, obviously (and charging during off peak hours will stabilize it, too). Betting on hydrogen (99% made from natural gas) does nothing to improve electricity generation and distribution in India.
sbierwagen 5y ago
The number of cities crossing 50C during the summer is getting larger and larger. Is that practical? India had basically no cars at all in the recent past. The country would survive going back to that state. It would not survive months of lethal heat every year.
jodrellblank 5y ago
> "companies have right to challenge those laws or on how practical they are." Is it not practical for Toyota to only offer electric cars for sale in India by 2030? Is it not practical for Toyota to sell fewer vehicles in India in 2030? To pull out of selling in India entirely? I know the criticism is "it's not practical for India to switch to electric vehicles (and keep everything else the same)" but (a) why is that Toyota's "right to challenge" and (b) why assume everything else has to stay the same? Assume the Indian government democratically chose economic slowdown from reduced vehicle sales but still wants those vehicles which are sold to only be electric, citizens should have the right to challenge that but why should international companies have such a right?
Jaepa 5y ago
Its a very much pie in the sky thought but EV theoretically could actually help the electrical infrastructure. Part of the issue is that supply & demand have to match, but demand for electrical systems is not static. You could theoretically use the EV batteries as reservoirs to store surplus energy during low demands periods, and supply energy during high demand periods. While I doubt it would flatten the duck curve, it could help to smooth it out some.
- fy20 5y ago
  This is already possible with some EVs: https://eepower.com/news/nissan-to-leaf-could-power-your-home-with-power-control-system/ https://eepower.com/news/nissan-to-leaf-could-power-your-hom... https://youtu.be/kl9_cWF7fXo https://youtu.be/kl9_cWF7fXo
  - dzhiurgis 5y ago
    So interesting Japan is so anti EV's and yet each of their EV or even hydrogen cars MUST legally have a vehicle 2 grid capability.
- rcMgD2BwE72F 5y ago
  It's already helping the grid https://www.tesla.com/support/energy/powerwall/own/california-virtual-power-plant https://www.tesla.com/support/energy/powerwall/own/californi...
- theshrike79 5y ago
  The Ford F-150 Lightning can power your house (if paired with a Ford charger connected to your home) The upcoming (this fall-ish) Hyundai Ioniq 5 has a vehicle-to-load capacity of 3.7 kW, enough to keep your fridge and freezer running during blackouts.
anigbrowl 5y ago
These challenges will naturally yield better laws Questionable.

Zigurd 5y ago

Those laws won't be better if all this amounts to is special pleading to not obsolete Toyota's R&D and capex in gas engines. India also "struggles" with petroleum infrastructure, safe handling, pollution, etc.

btgeekboy 5y ago

Sounds like they’ll be able to leverage that legislation to encourage grid improvements.

Causality1 5y ago
Just like Google Stadia made ISPs stop having data caps?
dylan604 5y ago
Myabe they can hire Enron to build them more gas power plants to not use.

WillDaSilva 5y ago

You're right that challenging legislature can improve it, but it would be naive to assume that Toyota has the goal of improving it for anyone/anything other than their bottom line. They are solely driven by their profit motive, and so it is safe to assume they are never participating in the legislative process in good faith, i.e. for the betterment of the public and the world. Instead they are only participating in the legislative process with the expectation that they can gain additional power and profit. Once we take that into consideration, it's hard to see their pushback against electric vehicles in a good light.

djanogo 5y ago
Whole lot of assumptions of what Toyota is, we can replace "Toyota" in your comment with most of the companies in SPY and it would sound very similar, lot of people have similar or more assumptions about Tesla, current opinion set to current submarine location.
- cmrdporcupine 5y ago
  At this point it is not Tesla vs the rest of the industry. The other two of the 3 biggest manufacturers, GM and VW, are both intensely invested in battery electric vehicles. Among the big players it is only Toyota playing this FUD game now (even Mazda who were panning BEVs for a long time seems to have decided to do some EV stuff, even if it looks a bit mediocre). Elon was smart to see the potential early on. But GM also started around the same time with the original Volt (which is still an awesome vehicle.)
  - takeda 5y ago
    I would argue it wasn't just that Elon was smart to see that potential, he created it. He showed that it was possible to have a fully electric call that is usable and attractive looking. Before Tesla, existing car manufacturers made cars with low range that were fugly looking, probably trying to show regulating bodies that no one would be interested in electric cars.
- this2shallPass 5y ago
  > we can replace "Toyota" in your comment with most of the companies in SPY and it would sound very similar Yes. Does this make the previous comment any less true? I'd say it's likely neutral or might even make it more true.
- sitkack 5y ago
  Because the statement could apply, doesn't mean it is or needs to. The argument was directed at Toyota specifically. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism Toyota is the largest car manufacturer in the world. They should not be partaking in these behaviors.

standardUser 5y ago

And how practical is unmitigated climate change? These things aren't occurring in a vacuum, or just to "be PC". This is way beyond urgent and extreme action is necessary.

rscoots 5y ago
PC is a poor descriptor, and yes urgent and extreme action is necessary. But why does that action have to include going 100% electric on an impractical timeline? Surely there are debateble aspects to this approach, and probably other sources of carbon emission that can be more easily reduced, thereby allowing for at least some gas cars. Do you really believe the entire country of India will be selling no gas powered cars by 2030? Surely this is just an overly-aggressive starting point by governments that they can further bargain on?
- revscat 5y ago
  Because the “practical” timeline was one started 30 years ago. But proposals were met then with the exact same “now let’s not be hasty” counterarguments. The more time that elapses, the more drastic actions are required, no matter how painful.
  - rscoots 5y ago
    >no matter how painful. Why put unnecessary strain on your society to get from a 90% reduction to a 100% reduction if there are other initiatives that can be more easily accomplished and make that 10% look like small peanuts in comparison? The answer is no one is gonna actually do this and this specific 100% number is just Govt and Businesses cynically trying to bargain.
    - anigbrowl 5y ago
      I notice you are not listing any of these much easier to accomplish objectives. To be honest, I'm not very interested in your theory of public bargaining. Could you specify a few of the big ideas that you think will make a bigger difference over the next decade?

eldaisfish 5y ago

that comment is spot on. India is a country that struggles with distributing electrical energy. EVs there are nothing but a pipe dream or a plaything for the rich. In the average western country where almost everyone has their electrical energy needs met, EVs do not have a technological limitation to adoption.

Noos 5y ago
Not really sure, we have our needs met for now, but most people having EVS would be a huge constraint drain on the power. I honestly feel what will happen instead is just that cars become too expensive to drive period, with only a relatively few owning private vehicles. A lot of people are surviving on 20 year old cars mostly.
- NotSammyHagar 5y ago
  Not in the us. Most charging can take place at night, using unused capacity. The only real impediment to almost universal EV use in the us is lack of easy charging for those who park on the street.
rcMgD2BwE72F 5y ago
Investing in EV will improve the grid, obviously (and charging during off peak hours will stabilize it, too). Betting on hydrogen (99% made from natural gas) does nothing to improve electricity generation and distribution in India.

sbierwagen 5y ago

The number of cities crossing 50C during the summer is getting larger and larger. Is that practical? India had basically no cars at all in the recent past. The country would survive going back to that state. It would not survive months of lethal heat every year.

jodrellblank 5y ago

> "companies have right to challenge those laws or on how practical they are." Is it not practical for Toyota to only offer electric cars for sale in India by 2030? Is it not practical for Toyota to sell fewer vehicles in India in 2030? To pull out of selling in India entirely? I know the criticism is "it's not practical for India to switch to electric vehicles (and keep everything else the same)" but (a) why is that Toyota's "right to challenge" and (b) why assume everything else has to stay the same? Assume the Indian government democratically chose economic slowdown from reduced vehicle sales but still wants those vehicles which are sold to only be electric, citizens should have the right to challenge that but why should international companies have such a right?

Jaepa 5y ago

Its a very much pie in the sky thought but EV theoretically could actually help the electrical infrastructure. Part of the issue is that supply & demand have to match, but demand for electrical systems is not static. You could theoretically use the EV batteries as reservoirs to store surplus energy during low demands periods, and supply energy during high demand periods. While I doubt it would flatten the duck curve, it could help to smooth it out some.

fy20 5y ago
This is already possible with some EVs: https://eepower.com/news/nissan-to-leaf-could-power-your-home-with-power-control-system/ https://eepower.com/news/nissan-to-leaf-could-power-your-hom... https://youtu.be/kl9_cWF7fXo https://youtu.be/kl9_cWF7fXo
- dzhiurgis 5y ago
  So interesting Japan is so anti EV's and yet each of their EV or even hydrogen cars MUST legally have a vehicle 2 grid capability.
rcMgD2BwE72F 5y ago
It's already helping the grid https://www.tesla.com/support/energy/powerwall/own/california-virtual-power-plant https://www.tesla.com/support/energy/powerwall/own/californi...
theshrike79 5y ago
The Ford F-150 Lightning can power your house (if paired with a Ford charger connected to your home) The upcoming (this fall-ish) Hyundai Ioniq 5 has a vehicle-to-load capacity of 3.7 kW, enough to keep your fridge and freezer running during blackouts.

anigbrowl 5y ago

These challenges will naturally yield better laws Questionable.