7 ms·

The major US company I worked for 6-7 years ago had a global presence, but were all sort of independent. We started to merge into 1 formal company, and started

The major US company I worked for 6-7 years ago had a global presence, but were all sort of independent. We started to merge into 1 formal company, and started reviewing IT processes. The Japan location still had people walking through the data center with a sheet of paper and a pen, going through and manually checking servers off a list in the data center. It blew everyone's mind

spamizbad 5y ago
I sometimes wonder if Japan's work culture that demands long hours from workers disincentivizes time-saving "automation": In the US, where the expectation is closer to 40 hours, you don't have the luxury of always assuming employees will be cool putting in 10-12 hour days.
- MattGaiser 5y ago
  Does it demand just long hours or also a certain level of busyness? As walking around with a clipboard looks a lot more busy than typing.
  - namelessoracle 5y ago
    Having worked in a data center. The "walk around with the clipboard" kinda still happens. Except its a tablet that syncs up with an actual database instead of lots of useless paperwork. Easy enough to look just as busy with the tablet.
    - zeeZ 5y ago
      You can't stamp a tablet with your hanko, and faxing it is difficult as well. A tablet would require changing a lot of established procedures.
      - nitrogen 5y ago
        Could there one day be a stamp that also has an RFID/HSM inside, that signs things digitally but gives the same UX?
        panda88888 5y ago
        Like an amiibo?
- ensiferum 5y ago
  You might be onto something. I read in a book about the world's economic history and why the industrial revolution started in the UK that one of the likely reasons was the rising expense of labour which forced businesses to then find more efficient ways to work which lead to machines and industrialization. So basically In any setting with a surplus of cheap labour this incentive simply isn't there.
- toyg 5y ago
  > Japan's work culture that demands long hours from workers disincentivizes time-saving "automation" I reckon it's more that initiative is not expected, or even discouraged. You will work on what the direct superior tells you, end of story. And the more people the boss can lord on, the bigger his empire looks like; so there is little incentive for middle-managers to pursue efficiency.
- keewee7 5y ago
  >I sometimes wonder if Japan's work culture that demands long hours from workers Japan is placed somewhere in the upper middle among OECD countries when it comes to average working hours per year and the percentage of workers working more than 60 hours per week.
  - newfriend 5y ago
    Isn't it weird then that there are so many stories of massively overworked workers in Japan? I wonder if those statistics are wrong, or perhaps misleading.
    - pixl97 5y ago
      Using that same example, you could consider American statistics misleading. US studies show that wage theft by corporations is a multi billion dollar a year industry. Things like that lead to underreporting of actual hours worked, hence, skewing statistics.
    - dfxm12 5y ago
      There are a large number of workers in Japan. Even a mid-range percentage of a large number could be "so many". By all means, the statistics could very well be wrong or misleading, but the number of stories you've heard isn't really evidence.
    - fomine3 5y ago
      There were (or are) many workers work overtime without salary paid, they would be won't displayed in statistics.
    - lmm 5y ago
      You cannot find any useful information about Japan in English. For some reason orientalism makes people abandon all common sense.
      - smokelegend 5y ago
        "You cannot find any useful information about Japan in English." Yeah Japanese history taught by Japanese people in Japanese language, in the land of Japan, that's how it works, I don't understand why you think everything should be written in English. Or should I say your ignorant statement invokes that angry response from me. "For some reason orientalism makes people abandon all common sense." Seriously??????? Orientalism??? Who the fuck r u? Seems like your white privilege is showing your racist side.... My kids are part Asian, I would break all the teeth in your mouth if I heard you say that statement in front of my children. Keyboard warrior I bet your are... fucking prick!
- chaorace 5y ago
  I'm not sure if I buy that logic. The U.S. is also on the high side, in terms of average annual hours worked. If we tried to extrapolate that hypothesis, shouldn't it imply that countries with considerably lower averages (e.g.: Germany, France, Sweden) ought to be considerably further ahead in automation than they currently are?
  - CerebralCerb 5y ago
    I do not know how automation is measured, but a couple Americans I've met here in Norway has said that automation is higher here.
- anonAndOn 5y ago
  The long hours are largely for saving face in front of the team. Nobody leaves before the boss leaves, with full trickle down effect. So if the director is working until 9pm that means his managers are there until 9pm and then the staff is sitting at their desks looking busy-ish until 9pm, regardless of utility. Anybody who leaves early is not "giving their best" to the success of the team.
  - sharken 5y ago
    Hmm, my goal is to do something memorable during a workday and not just showing up. Let alone the fact that in IT, you can rarely produce something worthwhile after 4-6 hours. It would also be hard to respect arbitrarily chosen rules, that have no proven effect on productivity. It's hard to see Japan being competitive with archaic rules like the above.
    - tonyedgecombe 5y ago
      It's interesting that these things don't seem to matter that much. Japan isn't some basket case, it is a developed and wealthy country. This is all the more remarkable when you consider the demographic circumstances it faces.
- indigo945 5y ago
  The average Japanese employee works less hours per year than the average American, on what comes down to having an additional two weeks off per year (1713 vs 1783 hours worked annually [1]). Of course, with statistics like these one has to consider the fact that second-income earners working part-time jobs make the statistic skew low, which means that in countries where wages are high enough to feed a family with only one parent working, the numbers will skew higher despite less actual hours worked. I am note sure to what degree the statistics address this issue. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_average_annual_labor_hours https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_average_a...
  - adventured 5y ago
    Japan also doesn't report its work hours fully. The notorious 12 hour work days in Japan are not commonly reported as such. American workers by contrast are (properly) penny counters when it comes to overtime, shift differential, et al. Every hour they work over is going to get counted and credited. The US has stricter labor laws at this point than Japan does.
  - newfriend 5y ago
    This list is useless. If you compared two families using this same system: * Family A - 1 worker, 40 hours per week, 1 non-worker * Family B - 2 workers, 20 hours per week each You'd get an average of 40 vs 20, which makes it appear as though Family A works "more" than Family B.
  - harpersealtako 5y ago
    This uses the official numbers for average hours worked in Japan, which are definitely not accurate as a lot of overtime is unreported (and unpaid), especially at particularly bad companies.
  - sandworm101 5y ago
    >> The average Japanese employee Employee is now a loaded word. Does this statistic include contractors or just hired "employees"? A great many workers in the US, from delivery drivers to doctors, are no longer actual employees. Do their hours count?
- dayvid 5y ago
  I was an english teacher in Japan for 2 years at a junior high school. The rep from a textbook company would go to the teacher's lounge every semester, bow to each of the teacher's one at a time in front of their desks, and ask them what they wanted to order from the catalog. The teacher's could've easily put in an order online or over the phone and I imagine the salesman had to go to each school in person.
- imtringued 5y ago
  Well, Japan has deflation/extremely low inflation which encourages bullshit jobs as people are desperate to work anywhere.
samstave 5y ago
Having built out infra in Japan - it was a really strange experience, esp WRT dealing with Data Centers... There was this one data center in Tokyo that we needed to put stuff into - and we needed a GPS antenna on the roof of the DC piped down to our cage... The DC itself was the most aesthetically beautiful DC I have been to; Bamboo forest and waterfall in the lobby, black granite everywhere, the receptionists were two beautiful women... The place was pristine in look and super super clean. We met with the execs that ran it and they agreed to all our requests - to pull lines from the roof to our cage, etc... But in the end, they said yes to everything, but didnt actually do anything that was requested. It was a waste of a trip (aside from the fun we had while not doing work), but it was stunning how much work was turned down based on them saying yes, but not actually doing any of the work requested...
- dr-detroit 5y ago
  its not normal for them to flatly say no and explain things to people they deem unworthy of the status that would merit an explanation.
- tovej 5y ago
  This might be a cultural/linguistic barrier you went up against. It might also not be related to what happened to you, but it feels like it is. Japanese use a lot of back-channel chatter when they talk to indicate that they are actively listening (Auzuchi). This includes saying "Yes" to indicate "Yes, I understand what you are saying" instead of "Yes, I agree that we should do as you are suggesting". They may not always indicate disagreement by saying "No" either, but simply by not committing to your suggestion when its their turn to talk (or some other, subtler expression than "No", such as a head tilt and an intake of breath) This active listening behavior has apparently led to similar misunderstandings before. Of course, if you made sure you actually came to a clear agreement with the execs, it's an entirely different story.
  - retrac 5y ago
    True. Cliche almost. More cultural than linguistic. Plenty of (usually different) contexts in America or the UK where "Mhm", "sure", and "we are looking forward to moving ahead with that" means nuh-uh.
sandworm101 5y ago
>> with a sheet of paper and a pen, going through and manually checking servers off a list Military here. We still do that. Classified systems have to be mustered (counted) regularly. Electronic records can be hacked/altered/spoofed remotely. In many situations that clipboard on a hook remains a perfectly valid security device, especially for systems/weapons/things that are not powered up 24/7.
- arp242 5y ago
  In a similar vein, in some countries they just went back to paper voting after trying electronic machines (e.g. Netherlands). It's not perfect, but it electronic solution also doesn't seem to be, and overall it seems to work well enough. There's this perception that "digital = better", but that's not always how it works. Actually, in quite a few cases the analogue solution was quite a bit better (analogue buttons, for example, but also just having some things on paper was a lot easier IMHO, like bus tickets and whatnot).
  - chucksta 5y ago
    Completely understand where you are both coming from with ideas about security and "good enough" technique. But these were incredibly simple tasks which any simple automated system would suffice. Things that could be analyzed with a graph and 5 minutes of time to review it were taking days. I also should have specified this was in an e-commerce company, so no state secrets or anything like that.
    - sandworm101 5y ago
      >> simple tasks which any simple automated system would suffice. Show me a machine that can go from room to room, from vehicle to vehicle, counting rifles without error. In the dark. In the mud. When all the vehicles are parked in different places every day. Or another regular task at my unit: itemizing first aid kits. Good luck telling a robot to count the number of tourniquets in a locker without making a mess of things. >>and "good enough" technique. These aren't good enough things. The human being counting things and signing a piece of paper is better than the automated/online system. A human's positive control cannot be hacked remotely. Go to a hospital and see if the surgeons are ok with their tools being cleaned and counted by machines, without human backup. Will never happen.

spamizbad 5y ago

I sometimes wonder if Japan's work culture that demands long hours from workers disincentivizes time-saving "automation": In the US, where the expectation is closer to 40 hours, you don't have the luxury of always assuming employees will be cool putting in 10-12 hour days.

MattGaiser 5y ago
Does it demand just long hours or also a certain level of busyness? As walking around with a clipboard looks a lot more busy than typing.
- namelessoracle 5y ago
  Having worked in a data center. The "walk around with the clipboard" kinda still happens. Except its a tablet that syncs up with an actual database instead of lots of useless paperwork. Easy enough to look just as busy with the tablet.
  - zeeZ 5y ago
    You can't stamp a tablet with your hanko, and faxing it is difficult as well. A tablet would require changing a lot of established procedures.
    - nitrogen 5y ago
      Could there one day be a stamp that also has an RFID/HSM inside, that signs things digitally but gives the same UX?
      - panda88888 5y ago
        Like an amiibo?
ensiferum 5y ago
You might be onto something. I read in a book about the world's economic history and why the industrial revolution started in the UK that one of the likely reasons was the rising expense of labour which forced businesses to then find more efficient ways to work which lead to machines and industrialization. So basically In any setting with a surplus of cheap labour this incentive simply isn't there.
toyg 5y ago
> Japan's work culture that demands long hours from workers disincentivizes time-saving "automation" I reckon it's more that initiative is not expected, or even discouraged. You will work on what the direct superior tells you, end of story. And the more people the boss can lord on, the bigger his empire looks like; so there is little incentive for middle-managers to pursue efficiency.
keewee7 5y ago
>I sometimes wonder if Japan's work culture that demands long hours from workers Japan is placed somewhere in the upper middle among OECD countries when it comes to average working hours per year and the percentage of workers working more than 60 hours per week.
- newfriend 5y ago
  Isn't it weird then that there are so many stories of massively overworked workers in Japan? I wonder if those statistics are wrong, or perhaps misleading.
  - pixl97 5y ago
    Using that same example, you could consider American statistics misleading. US studies show that wage theft by corporations is a multi billion dollar a year industry. Things like that lead to underreporting of actual hours worked, hence, skewing statistics.
  - dfxm12 5y ago
    There are a large number of workers in Japan. Even a mid-range percentage of a large number could be "so many". By all means, the statistics could very well be wrong or misleading, but the number of stories you've heard isn't really evidence.
  - fomine3 5y ago
    There were (or are) many workers work overtime without salary paid, they would be won't displayed in statistics.
  - lmm 5y ago
    You cannot find any useful information about Japan in English. For some reason orientalism makes people abandon all common sense.
    - smokelegend 5y ago
      "You cannot find any useful information about Japan in English." Yeah Japanese history taught by Japanese people in Japanese language, in the land of Japan, that's how it works, I don't understand why you think everything should be written in English. Or should I say your ignorant statement invokes that angry response from me. "For some reason orientalism makes people abandon all common sense." Seriously??????? Orientalism??? Who the fuck r u? Seems like your white privilege is showing your racist side.... My kids are part Asian, I would break all the teeth in your mouth if I heard you say that statement in front of my children. Keyboard warrior I bet your are... fucking prick!
chaorace 5y ago
I'm not sure if I buy that logic. The U.S. is also on the high side, in terms of average annual hours worked. If we tried to extrapolate that hypothesis, shouldn't it imply that countries with considerably lower averages (e.g.: Germany, France, Sweden) ought to be considerably further ahead in automation than they currently are?
- CerebralCerb 5y ago
  I do not know how automation is measured, but a couple Americans I've met here in Norway has said that automation is higher here.
anonAndOn 5y ago
The long hours are largely for saving face in front of the team. Nobody leaves before the boss leaves, with full trickle down effect. So if the director is working until 9pm that means his managers are there until 9pm and then the staff is sitting at their desks looking busy-ish until 9pm, regardless of utility. Anybody who leaves early is not "giving their best" to the success of the team.
- sharken 5y ago
  Hmm, my goal is to do something memorable during a workday and not just showing up. Let alone the fact that in IT, you can rarely produce something worthwhile after 4-6 hours. It would also be hard to respect arbitrarily chosen rules, that have no proven effect on productivity. It's hard to see Japan being competitive with archaic rules like the above.
  - tonyedgecombe 5y ago
    It's interesting that these things don't seem to matter that much. Japan isn't some basket case, it is a developed and wealthy country. This is all the more remarkable when you consider the demographic circumstances it faces.
indigo945 5y ago
The average Japanese employee works less hours per year than the average American, on what comes down to having an additional two weeks off per year (1713 vs 1783 hours worked annually [1]). Of course, with statistics like these one has to consider the fact that second-income earners working part-time jobs make the statistic skew low, which means that in countries where wages are high enough to feed a family with only one parent working, the numbers will skew higher despite less actual hours worked. I am note sure to what degree the statistics address this issue. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_average_annual_labor_hours https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_average_a...
- adventured 5y ago
  Japan also doesn't report its work hours fully. The notorious 12 hour work days in Japan are not commonly reported as such. American workers by contrast are (properly) penny counters when it comes to overtime, shift differential, et al. Every hour they work over is going to get counted and credited. The US has stricter labor laws at this point than Japan does.
- newfriend 5y ago
  This list is useless. If you compared two families using this same system: * Family A - 1 worker, 40 hours per week, 1 non-worker * Family B - 2 workers, 20 hours per week each You'd get an average of 40 vs 20, which makes it appear as though Family A works "more" than Family B.
- harpersealtako 5y ago
  This uses the official numbers for average hours worked in Japan, which are definitely not accurate as a lot of overtime is unreported (and unpaid), especially at particularly bad companies.
- sandworm101 5y ago
  >> The average Japanese employee Employee is now a loaded word. Does this statistic include contractors or just hired "employees"? A great many workers in the US, from delivery drivers to doctors, are no longer actual employees. Do their hours count?
dayvid 5y ago
I was an english teacher in Japan for 2 years at a junior high school. The rep from a textbook company would go to the teacher's lounge every semester, bow to each of the teacher's one at a time in front of their desks, and ask them what they wanted to order from the catalog. The teacher's could've easily put in an order online or over the phone and I imagine the salesman had to go to each school in person.
imtringued 5y ago
Well, Japan has deflation/extremely low inflation which encourages bullshit jobs as people are desperate to work anywhere.

samstave 5y ago

Having built out infra in Japan - it was a really strange experience, esp WRT dealing with Data Centers... There was this one data center in Tokyo that we needed to put stuff into - and we needed a GPS antenna on the roof of the DC piped down to our cage... The DC itself was the most aesthetically beautiful DC I have been to; Bamboo forest and waterfall in the lobby, black granite everywhere, the receptionists were two beautiful women... The place was pristine in look and super super clean. We met with the execs that ran it and they agreed to all our requests - to pull lines from the roof to our cage, etc... But in the end, they said yes to everything, but didnt actually do anything that was requested. It was a waste of a trip (aside from the fun we had while not doing work), but it was stunning how much work was turned down based on them saying yes, but not actually doing any of the work requested...

dr-detroit 5y ago
its not normal for them to flatly say no and explain things to people they deem unworthy of the status that would merit an explanation.
tovej 5y ago
This might be a cultural/linguistic barrier you went up against. It might also not be related to what happened to you, but it feels like it is. Japanese use a lot of back-channel chatter when they talk to indicate that they are actively listening (Auzuchi). This includes saying "Yes" to indicate "Yes, I understand what you are saying" instead of "Yes, I agree that we should do as you are suggesting". They may not always indicate disagreement by saying "No" either, but simply by not committing to your suggestion when its their turn to talk (or some other, subtler expression than "No", such as a head tilt and an intake of breath) This active listening behavior has apparently led to similar misunderstandings before. Of course, if you made sure you actually came to a clear agreement with the execs, it's an entirely different story.
- retrac 5y ago
  True. Cliche almost. More cultural than linguistic. Plenty of (usually different) contexts in America or the UK where "Mhm", "sure", and "we are looking forward to moving ahead with that" means nuh-uh.

sandworm101 5y ago

>> with a sheet of paper and a pen, going through and manually checking servers off a list Military here. We still do that. Classified systems have to be mustered (counted) regularly. Electronic records can be hacked/altered/spoofed remotely. In many situations that clipboard on a hook remains a perfectly valid security device, especially for systems/weapons/things that are not powered up 24/7.

arp242 5y ago
In a similar vein, in some countries they just went back to paper voting after trying electronic machines (e.g. Netherlands). It's not perfect, but it electronic solution also doesn't seem to be, and overall it seems to work well enough. There's this perception that "digital = better", but that's not always how it works. Actually, in quite a few cases the analogue solution was quite a bit better (analogue buttons, for example, but also just having some things on paper was a lot easier IMHO, like bus tickets and whatnot).
- chucksta 5y ago
  Completely understand where you are both coming from with ideas about security and "good enough" technique. But these were incredibly simple tasks which any simple automated system would suffice. Things that could be analyzed with a graph and 5 minutes of time to review it were taking days. I also should have specified this was in an e-commerce company, so no state secrets or anything like that.
  - sandworm101 5y ago
    >> simple tasks which any simple automated system would suffice. Show me a machine that can go from room to room, from vehicle to vehicle, counting rifles without error. In the dark. In the mud. When all the vehicles are parked in different places every day. Or another regular task at my unit: itemizing first aid kits. Good luck telling a robot to count the number of tourniquets in a locker without making a mess of things. >>and "good enough" technique. These aren't good enough things. The human being counting things and signing a piece of paper is better than the automated/online system. A human's positive control cannot be hacked remotely. Go to a hospital and see if the surgeons are ok with their tools being cleaned and counted by machines, without human backup. Will never happen.