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If you're being denied jobs because of your race and gender, how is that "incredible privilege"? If you insist on feeling guilty for the circumstances of your b

If you're being denied jobs because of your race and gender, how is that "incredible privilege"? If you insist on feeling guilty for the circumstances of your birth, surely it is being born in a rich, stable country that yields the privilege, not race? The white women who would have argued for those policies, were not born less privileged than you.

simonh 5y ago
I think age plays a role here, I'm a white male in my 50s and certainly women of my generation faced enormous hurdles that men didn't. That's because the majority of people in power while I was growing up were white men who grew up in the 1940s and 50s, and had moral compasses and gender expectations baked into them at that time. Time and again I witnessed girls in my school classes in the 70s and 80s treated disrespectfully and condescendingly by teachers so boys of my age were exposed to these attitudes and I'm sure some were influenced by them. I have two daughters and when they were about 9 and 10 my brother bought them a model combustion engine. When we told one of my uncles he snorted and said "Hasn't he noticed they're Girls!". That was about 8 years ago, and that uncle of mine has 3 daughters. Of course my kids loved the model and wouldn't let anyone else touch it, they spent hours working on it. I'm pretty confident the current climate is much, much more open to women choosing their own path but it's still not perfect. There are still a lot of men in positions of power or influence with attitudes they learned many decades ago. Actually a fair few women too, many older ladies have regrettably regressive attitudes. They're there in families and work places influencing expectations, promoting biased thinking and giving boy's toys to boys and girl's toys to girls.
- raxxorrax 5y ago
  You are basically a NIMBY on gender and other men should not get penalties because you have daughters and are protective of them. Women tend not to reach university in tech, so the blame would be on parents anyway. > but it's still not perfect What would "perfect" look like? I do think time will solve this if there are indeed that many women interested in tech. There is still a possibility that those women are exceptions though. And this "positive" discrimination sets everyone back. Don't penalize other men because you are unsure about educating your daughters. It is natural to be defensive here, but that is for you to deconstruct.
  - simonh 5y ago
    I already described how male teachers treat girls condescendingly and how other family members can subvert their interests, as can their peers. There's a lot parents can do, but they can't be everywhere during their child's education and gate keep all their experiences. >What would "perfect" look like? The best we can hope for would probably be enough awareness of positive role models, and access to encouragement and opportunities, to effectively counteract the inevitable discouragements and adverse influences. Not perfect but it might have to do. I'm not at all for positive discrimination, I hope I didn't give that impression. I don't think it's necessary. I do believe white men still enjoy a lot of advantages, or at least face a lot fewer obstacles, than even white girls and that's based on personal observation and experience. I was replying to a comment that white girls do not have fewer privileges than white men, and I think that's thoroughly misconceived. It's better than it was, but misogynistic attitudes are still very much out there. - Wow, example that came up just today. My wife and I were discussing plans for a renovation to our house with an architect. They guy pretty much refused to look at my wife and addresses his answers to me every time, even when she was asking the questions he checked it with me before answering. It was weird.
    - username90 5y ago
      > I already described how male teachers treat girls condescendingly and how other family members can subvert their interests, as can their peers. There's a lot parents can do, but they can't be everywhere during their child's education and gate keep all their experiences. Being guided to a male or female path isn't a privilege though. Boys gets even more pushback than that if they try to enter female dominated fields. There is a male privilege in tech, sure, but this article is about the advertisement segment which is far from male dominated. So what we see here is a bunch of women pushing out men using their female privilege in that industry.
    - 1123581321 5y ago
      The most likely explanation is that he was reading the nonverbal communication and body language of you and your wife. Sales, even technical sales, is too cutthroat to afford to dismiss any decision maker in the room.
BigBubbleButt 5y ago
You're focusing on one tiny anecdote of my life and generalizing it to my entire existence. I never said being discriminated against for a job was an example of incredible privilege - it's many of the other things that most white males never notice. When I get pulled over for speeding I don't have to worry about getting shot like black men do. Do you have any idea how fucking horrible it is to go through life worrying about legalized thugs with a proven history of racism regularly getting away with murdering you just because of the color of your skin? I don't because I'm white. That's privilege. If you think "driving while black" is a joke then your ignorance is making the world a worse place. Holy fucking shit I cannot stand the echo chamber that is tech sometimes. Get out of your bubble and try to experience the world outside of reading about it on HN. There are worse things than being denied a job because of bullshit HR policies.
- native_samples 5y ago
  More white men are shot by the police than black men in the USA, so unfortunately you do have to worry about that (a little bit, but not too much). https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-race/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-de... This means your example of white privilege is invalid. Do you have any other?
  - BigBubbleButt 5y ago
    Those are raw numbers. What happens when you consider that there are more white people than black people in the United States? It reverses your claim. Your numbers show there are roughly twice as many white people shot, but there are roughly 4x as many white people as black - so being black makes you twice as likely to be shot by the police in the United States. This is so obvious I assume you're arguing in bad faith. The sign of privilege is being unaware of it, because you're not regularly confronted with adversity. What is the worst adversity you've faced in your life as a white male? Mine is maybe being denied a lucrative job. Boo fucking hoo for me.
    - native_samples 5y ago

simonh 5y ago

I think age plays a role here, I'm a white male in my 50s and certainly women of my generation faced enormous hurdles that men didn't. That's because the majority of people in power while I was growing up were white men who grew up in the 1940s and 50s, and had moral compasses and gender expectations baked into them at that time. Time and again I witnessed girls in my school classes in the 70s and 80s treated disrespectfully and condescendingly by teachers so boys of my age were exposed to these attitudes and I'm sure some were influenced by them. I have two daughters and when they were about 9 and 10 my brother bought them a model combustion engine. When we told one of my uncles he snorted and said "Hasn't he noticed they're Girls!". That was about 8 years ago, and that uncle of mine has 3 daughters. Of course my kids loved the model and wouldn't let anyone else touch it, they spent hours working on it. I'm pretty confident the current climate is much, much more open to women choosing their own path but it's still not perfect. There are still a lot of men in positions of power or influence with attitudes they learned many decades ago. Actually a fair few women too, many older ladies have regrettably regressive attitudes. They're there in families and work places influencing expectations, promoting biased thinking and giving boy's toys to boys and girl's toys to girls.

raxxorrax 5y ago
You are basically a NIMBY on gender and other men should not get penalties because you have daughters and are protective of them. Women tend not to reach university in tech, so the blame would be on parents anyway. > but it's still not perfect What would "perfect" look like? I do think time will solve this if there are indeed that many women interested in tech. There is still a possibility that those women are exceptions though. And this "positive" discrimination sets everyone back. Don't penalize other men because you are unsure about educating your daughters. It is natural to be defensive here, but that is for you to deconstruct.
- simonh 5y ago
  I already described how male teachers treat girls condescendingly and how other family members can subvert their interests, as can their peers. There's a lot parents can do, but they can't be everywhere during their child's education and gate keep all their experiences. >What would "perfect" look like? The best we can hope for would probably be enough awareness of positive role models, and access to encouragement and opportunities, to effectively counteract the inevitable discouragements and adverse influences. Not perfect but it might have to do. I'm not at all for positive discrimination, I hope I didn't give that impression. I don't think it's necessary. I do believe white men still enjoy a lot of advantages, or at least face a lot fewer obstacles, than even white girls and that's based on personal observation and experience. I was replying to a comment that white girls do not have fewer privileges than white men, and I think that's thoroughly misconceived. It's better than it was, but misogynistic attitudes are still very much out there. - Wow, example that came up just today. My wife and I were discussing plans for a renovation to our house with an architect. They guy pretty much refused to look at my wife and addresses his answers to me every time, even when she was asking the questions he checked it with me before answering. It was weird.
  - username90 5y ago
    > I already described how male teachers treat girls condescendingly and how other family members can subvert their interests, as can their peers. There's a lot parents can do, but they can't be everywhere during their child's education and gate keep all their experiences. Being guided to a male or female path isn't a privilege though. Boys gets even more pushback than that if they try to enter female dominated fields. There is a male privilege in tech, sure, but this article is about the advertisement segment which is far from male dominated. So what we see here is a bunch of women pushing out men using their female privilege in that industry.
  - 1123581321 5y ago
    The most likely explanation is that he was reading the nonverbal communication and body language of you and your wife. Sales, even technical sales, is too cutthroat to afford to dismiss any decision maker in the room.

BigBubbleButt 5y ago

You're focusing on one tiny anecdote of my life and generalizing it to my entire existence. I never said being discriminated against for a job was an example of incredible privilege - it's many of the other things that most white males never notice. When I get pulled over for speeding I don't have to worry about getting shot like black men do. Do you have any idea how fucking horrible it is to go through life worrying about legalized thugs with a proven history of racism regularly getting away with murdering you just because of the color of your skin? I don't because I'm white. That's privilege. If you think "driving while black" is a joke then your ignorance is making the world a worse place. Holy fucking shit I cannot stand the echo chamber that is tech sometimes. Get out of your bubble and try to experience the world outside of reading about it on HN. There are worse things than being denied a job because of bullshit HR policies.

native_samples 5y ago
More white men are shot by the police than black men in the USA, so unfortunately you do have to worry about that (a little bit, but not too much). https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-race/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-de... This means your example of white privilege is invalid. Do you have any other?
- BigBubbleButt 5y ago
  Those are raw numbers. What happens when you consider that there are more white people than black people in the United States? It reverses your claim. Your numbers show there are roughly twice as many white people shot, but there are roughly 4x as many white people as black - so being black makes you twice as likely to be shot by the police in the United States. This is so obvious I assume you're arguing in bad faith. The sign of privilege is being unaware of it, because you're not regularly confronted with adversity. What is the worst adversity you've faced in your life as a white male? Mine is maybe being denied a lucrative job. Boo fucking hoo for me.
  - native_samples 5y ago