4 ms·

Millions of student loan borrowers don't have a diploma to show for their debt

38 points by indigodaddy 5y ago

exabrial 5y ago
One thing my parents did, was sit me down and say, what career do you want and what are the potential salary earnings? From there we backed into loan payments and how long I would be owing. That changed my choice of schools from a super popular destination college to more modest community and state choices. This seemed just like common sense... if you're going to borrow money, will you have the means to pay it back? These conversations need to be had.
- FuckButtons 5y ago
  I think you’re assuming that everyone has a relationship like that with their parents where frank discussions can be had, or problems solved. I certainly did not and I’m sure that’s true of many people.
  - Buttons840 5y ago
    I don't think he assumed that. He just said the conversations need to happen, not necessarily with parents. People should have and understand a plan for repaying a loan. Of course, the hard question is how can we make this happen?
- akomtu 5y ago
  What's the typical pricetag for a MS degree with batteries included in one of those super popular destinations?
  - skuhn 5y ago
    Not typical (tuition was high when I went there relative to similarly ranked schools), but also probably not the most expensive school. Today's rate for the lower tier 1 private university I attended would be: Bachelor's: $74,180 per year x 4 = $296,720 Master's: $50,787 per year x 2 = $101,574 Total: $398,274 This is in one of the poorest large cities in the US, so that is WAY out of reach for local residents (without substantial financial aid, which is why I attended). Tuition goes up every year, so it would actually cost more than this. It's been two decades since I enrolled, and the cost per credit hour has gone from about $900 to $2186 in that time. For undergraduate that includes room, board, books, fees and tuition. For graduate it's just tuition and fees.
    - burntoutfire 5y ago
      Don't a lot of elite universities have student aid, where, if you can't afford to study there, you'll be able to do it practically for free?
      - inkeddeveloper 5y ago
        In the US? No.
      - skuhn 5y ago
        Sure, you can receive financial aid -- I mentioned that that's why I attended that school. However, it isn't without strings attached and even most full ride scholarships don't account for the annual tuition increases. For anything else, there are student loans. Easy to get, hard to get rid of. They have higher interest rates than mortgages, and people take similarly long periods of time to pay them off. I know people who still owe tens of thousands on their undergraduate loans, decades after graduation. They work, they make payments, but they may never pay them off.
    - antifa 5y ago
      That's the price of 2 houses. If I had that student debt right now, there's no way I would be able to buy a house.
      - skuhn 5y ago
        Exactly. An entire generation is saddled by massive student loan debt, and that has a very real impact on their economic situation for the rest of their lives.
- atatatat 5y ago
  "The things the smart people around me did are things everyone should know to do." Environment is everything.
- voidfunc 5y ago
  Thats one methodology. My parents on the other hand told me to get an education first and worry about a career later. I got a philosophy degree and have never regretted that decision.
  - influx 5y ago
    Are you paid to be a philosopher?
  - imtringued 5y ago
    He didn't say anything about degrees (only careers). He said you should avoid expensive schools.
konfusinomicon 5y ago
in other news, millions of people have a diploma to show for their debt. 41% vs. 59% in 4 years isn't a significant enough statistic to warrant outrage
- sebmellen 5y ago
  I think that if you aren’t outraged by the state of higher education in the US, you’re either a) delusional or b) an administrator or someone making money off the racket. Good article: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/05/marriage-college-status-meritocracy/618795/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/05/marriage-c....
  - baash05 5y ago
    But aren't these debts self imposed? I paid mine off in 12 years, and never once worked in the field. My degree has helped me very little in the 20 years since.. But the decision to get incur the debt was mine and mine alone. I can't blame the school for making me pay for something I not only asked for but prayed for. You own the debt.
    - amanaplanacanal 5y ago
      I'm retired, and the college finance system was very different back in the mid-seventies when I went to high school. The whole of our culture tells kids to go to college. All the adults around them are saying they have to. The skids are greased for them to do this. I don't think a seventeen or eighteen year old following this path without fully understanding the consequences is too surprising.
    - antifa 5y ago
      > But aren't these debts self imposed? My parents told me that my entire family would line up and beat the shit out of me if I didn't go to college. I'm sure most people had something more sane happen to them. Society proudly brainwashes and propagandizes heavily the necessity of a degree. At some point, consent is coercively manufactured.
stevenicr 5y ago
couple more data points.. gal I know has a diploma and 25k in debt - couldn't get a job in related field paying more than $10/hour, currently works non-related field which requires no degree, no training, makes 11.50... every year the 20% or whatever of her pay is taken by the gov and handed to the school loan servicers for the school, which has rebranded to a "non-profit" college (to avoid regulations about graduation/employment rates and gov-backed-forced-money) doing the same shit - selling you one a dream and stringing you along until you've attended enough full days for them to get guaranteed paid. They all know you will not be landing a 80k /yr job on leaving - but most the students believe they can. have another friend who won't get her business degree until her school debt is paid off.. I think she has 4 more years at this rate and has been paying the debt without the benefit of the degree for at least 4 years.. at least that's her story. watching single parent women lose 20% of their income every year to debts that do them zero good is weird, especially when they are only making 12-$14 / hour in the first place. They could be making that without being able to speak English or do 3rd grade math. Does it matter if they have the diploma or not?
- redis_mlc 5y ago
  Regarding US women and higher education ... most run up a huge bill and 100% expect their bf/husband to pay it off later. Legally, student loans are not inside the marriage, but simps like Dave Ramsey call it "shared debt." (There's actually been callers to his show with $500k to $1M in medical school debt.) Don't date people with large credit card or student loan debt. Once a partner starts re-negotiating the terms of your partnership to include their student loan debt, all you can do is walk out and get divorced. If you pay it, often they will then divorce you the same month and "trade up" to the next guy.
Proven 5y ago
You don't need one to work in Starbucks

38 points by indigodaddy 5y ago

One thing my parents did, was sit me down and say, what career do you want and what are the potential salary earnings? From there we backed into loan payments and how long I would be owing. That changed my choice of schools from a super popular destination college to more modest community and state choices. This seemed just like common sense... if you're going to borrow money, will you have the means to pay it back? These conversations need to be had.

FuckButtons 5y ago
I think you’re assuming that everyone has a relationship like that with their parents where frank discussions can be had, or problems solved. I certainly did not and I’m sure that’s true of many people.
- Buttons840 5y ago
  I don't think he assumed that. He just said the conversations need to happen, not necessarily with parents. People should have and understand a plan for repaying a loan. Of course, the hard question is how can we make this happen?
akomtu 5y ago
What's the typical pricetag for a MS degree with batteries included in one of those super popular destinations?
- skuhn 5y ago
  Not typical (tuition was high when I went there relative to similarly ranked schools), but also probably not the most expensive school. Today's rate for the lower tier 1 private university I attended would be: Bachelor's: $74,180 per year x 4 = $296,720 Master's: $50,787 per year x 2 = $101,574 Total: $398,274 This is in one of the poorest large cities in the US, so that is WAY out of reach for local residents (without substantial financial aid, which is why I attended). Tuition goes up every year, so it would actually cost more than this. It's been two decades since I enrolled, and the cost per credit hour has gone from about $900 to $2186 in that time. For undergraduate that includes room, board, books, fees and tuition. For graduate it's just tuition and fees.
  - burntoutfire 5y ago
    Don't a lot of elite universities have student aid, where, if you can't afford to study there, you'll be able to do it practically for free?
    - inkeddeveloper 5y ago
      In the US? No.
    - skuhn 5y ago
      Sure, you can receive financial aid -- I mentioned that that's why I attended that school. However, it isn't without strings attached and even most full ride scholarships don't account for the annual tuition increases. For anything else, there are student loans. Easy to get, hard to get rid of. They have higher interest rates than mortgages, and people take similarly long periods of time to pay them off. I know people who still owe tens of thousands on their undergraduate loans, decades after graduation. They work, they make payments, but they may never pay them off.
  - antifa 5y ago
    That's the price of 2 houses. If I had that student debt right now, there's no way I would be able to buy a house.
    - skuhn 5y ago
      Exactly. An entire generation is saddled by massive student loan debt, and that has a very real impact on their economic situation for the rest of their lives.
atatatat 5y ago
"The things the smart people around me did are things everyone should know to do." Environment is everything.
voidfunc 5y ago
Thats one methodology. My parents on the other hand told me to get an education first and worry about a career later. I got a philosophy degree and have never regretted that decision.
- influx 5y ago
  Are you paid to be a philosopher?
- imtringued 5y ago
  He didn't say anything about degrees (only careers). He said you should avoid expensive schools.

konfusinomicon 5y ago

in other news, millions of people have a diploma to show for their debt. 41% vs. 59% in 4 years isn't a significant enough statistic to warrant outrage

sebmellen 5y ago
I think that if you aren’t outraged by the state of higher education in the US, you’re either a) delusional or b) an administrator or someone making money off the racket. Good article: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/05/marriage-college-status-meritocracy/618795/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/05/marriage-c....
- baash05 5y ago
  But aren't these debts self imposed? I paid mine off in 12 years, and never once worked in the field. My degree has helped me very little in the 20 years since.. But the decision to get incur the debt was mine and mine alone. I can't blame the school for making me pay for something I not only asked for but prayed for. You own the debt.
  - amanaplanacanal 5y ago
    I'm retired, and the college finance system was very different back in the mid-seventies when I went to high school. The whole of our culture tells kids to go to college. All the adults around them are saying they have to. The skids are greased for them to do this. I don't think a seventeen or eighteen year old following this path without fully understanding the consequences is too surprising.
  - antifa 5y ago
    > But aren't these debts self imposed? My parents told me that my entire family would line up and beat the shit out of me if I didn't go to college. I'm sure most people had something more sane happen to them. Society proudly brainwashes and propagandizes heavily the necessity of a degree. At some point, consent is coercively manufactured.

stevenicr 5y ago

couple more data points.. gal I know has a diploma and 25k in debt - couldn't get a job in related field paying more than $10/hour, currently works non-related field which requires no degree, no training, makes 11.50... every year the 20% or whatever of her pay is taken by the gov and handed to the school loan servicers for the school, which has rebranded to a "non-profit" college (to avoid regulations about graduation/employment rates and gov-backed-forced-money) doing the same shit - selling you one a dream and stringing you along until you've attended enough full days for them to get guaranteed paid. They all know you will not be landing a 80k /yr job on leaving - but most the students believe they can. have another friend who won't get her business degree until her school debt is paid off.. I think she has 4 more years at this rate and has been paying the debt without the benefit of the degree for at least 4 years.. at least that's her story. watching single parent women lose 20% of their income every year to debts that do them zero good is weird, especially when they are only making 12-$14 / hour in the first place. They could be making that without being able to speak English or do 3rd grade math. Does it matter if they have the diploma or not?

redis_mlc 5y ago
Regarding US women and higher education ... most run up a huge bill and 100% expect their bf/husband to pay it off later. Legally, student loans are not inside the marriage, but simps like Dave Ramsey call it "shared debt." (There's actually been callers to his show with $500k to $1M in medical school debt.) Don't date people with large credit card or student loan debt. Once a partner starts re-negotiating the terms of your partnership to include their student loan debt, all you can do is walk out and get divorced. If you pay it, often they will then divorce you the same month and "trade up" to the next guy.

Proven 5y ago

You don't need one to work in Starbucks