9 ms·

Archaeologists find ancient Egyptian warship sunk near Alexandria

278 points by diodorus 5y ago

Sebb767 5y ago
> Clearly, this was no cargo vessel; ships built to haul cargo or passengers tend to be wider, built for capacity rather than speed and agility. Wouldn't a wider ship be more agile? Maybe my intuition fails me, but to me it would seem like like a longer ship is far harder to turn (think of rotating one of those large chef knives in water vs a bowl).
- npsomaratna 5y ago
  I think that longer = more rowers; less wide = less mass. Wouldn't that mean a more powerful and agile ship?
  - eftychis 5y ago
    Wide relates in the end to drag. And yes the number of rowers matters -- a bigger ship requires more rowers, thus more mass etc. Generally, there is the "optimization problem" with each such system that a bigger vehicle requires bigger engine and more fuel which means more mass. But here they mainly refer to the ratio of length versus width and from my and above posters guess they refer to the profile of the boat in the water. Edit: to amend and clarify: mass in a fluid affects displacement (assuming you stay above surface) and thus drag and maximum speed. Here is a crude reference about boat speeds https://www.boats.com/reviews/crunching-numbers-hull-speed-boat-length/ https://www.boats.com/reviews/crunching-numbers-hull-speed-b... -- if I get time I will do more Google fu but I am pretty sure anyone can find the complete derivation online.
    - julosflb 5y ago
      The wave making resistance is generally much larger than pure viscous drag/friction on the hull for conventional boat.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- coryrc 5y ago
  On the water, speed is agility, and speed is limited to the square root of length for displacement hulls (which these are). Wider means heavier for a given length, taking longer to speed up, and more friction to overcome.
  - pge 5y ago
    wider also means more frontal surface area. Just like a car going through air, less frontal surface area means more aerodynamic (or hydrodynamic), ie lower coefficient of drag. Olympic rowing shells and flatwater kayaks provide good visuals of what a fast displacement hull boat looks like - long and as narrow as possible.
    - coryrc 5y ago
      I think GP is thinking about a row boat, how it can turn on a dime quickly, which is true, but not useful in a sea battle.
eftychis 5y ago
FYI: The site of the European Institute of Underwater Archeology has a lot of information about the site (https://ieasm.institute/egypt.php?lang=en https://ieasm.institute/egypt.php?lang=en).
- JudgePenitent 5y ago
  Thanks for posting this!
  - state_less 5y ago
    Made me think of this song. I’m skeptical of the last line - might still be a little love. The ocean is a desert with it's life underground And a perfect disguise above Under the cities lies a heart made of ground But the humans will give no love -America horse with no name
sanatgersappa 5y ago
How do you write "Ever Given" in heiroglyphics?
- prox 5y ago
  This is a good question for r/AncientEgyptian
JudgePenitent 5y ago
Fitting that Diodorus should post this to hn. "So far, archaeologists have explored less than five percent of the ancient city." So still much more to come. The story of Heraklion is a great example of climate change and its impacts on human civilization. The other story of Heraklion is its great multiculturalism; it exhibits both Greek and Egyptian influences. I am always fascinated when I hear other nerds describe the process of learning Western history as "begin with the Greeks." And we often base Western civilization upon Greek thought, Roman law. At the same time, I am reminded of the story of Thales who supposedly learned his mathematical talents from Egypt. The interconnection between the two worlds seems obvious to me today, and I often wonder the reasons Westerners usually begin (and, for some, end) with the Greeks. Hopefully Heraklion/Thonis can teach us more about the interrelations between Greece and Egypt; not only how they traded, but who they sat in between, how long this city had been here, did the Sea-Peoples (Phoenicians if you ask me) trade here, and were the populations of Greece and Egypt far closer in cultural heritage than we acknowledge today.
- robbiep 5y ago
  Regarding your fascination about western history ‘beginning with the Greeks’ I would say the reason why is fairly obvious if you follow the history. Despite the locus of civilisation being in Mesopotamia and Egypt from 5-6000BCE to 500BCE by the time of this discovery (1-200BCE) Egypt had been conquered by Alexander and the (Mid East and Eastern Mediterranean) world divided between his generals. Additionally, whilst there is so much we don’t know of the thought and philiosophy of the area, what has survived to us today in terms of philosophy and law comes from the Greeks and Romans. So for the very early antiquity, you had mathematics and other vestiges of civilisation flowing from Egypt and Mesopotamia to other parts of the world, and then later the conquest of these areas by the Greeks first and then others. Anyway, your comments mark you as being well informed on the history so I am sure you don’t need a lesson from me, maybe the other point I’d make is that the breadth and detail of history makes generalisations such as ‘western history begins with the Greeks’ a more palatable launchpad for consumption than breaking down the nuance that inevitably unfolds on more profound study
  - jfoutz 5y ago
adolph 5y ago
Folks who find this interesting might find the Roman Nemi ships interesting. They were likely large scale pleasure barges. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemi_ships https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemi_ships
- sitkack 5y ago
  > Recovered from the lake bed in 1929, the ships were destroyed by fire during World War II in 1944. These are fantastical!
  - jaclaz 5y ago
    I would add that people would likely be interested to the drainage tunnel that the Romans excavated (emissarium) which is an incredible engineering feat, not only because it has an exceptionally accurate (low, 0,8/1% gradient) slope, but because it was excavated from both sides of the mountain and at the connection there was an error of only a few meters. I don't seem to be able to find a dedicated article/site, there is a description in this .pdf: http://soci.romasotterranea.it/image/rassegna_stampa/pdf/12.pdf http://soci.romasotterranea.it/image/rassegna_stampa/pdf/12.... In 1929 the tunnel was re-used pumping in it (with mechanical pumps) the water to be able to recover the wrecks. Also interesting are reports of previous attempts to inspect the ships in the 15th, 16th and 19th century: https://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/encyclopaedia_romana/miscellanea/nemi/nemi.html https://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/encyclopaedia_romana/mi...
    - adolph 5y ago
      Wow, that was a great read and I’m grateful for the English version on the second page.
- devoutsalsa 5y ago
  How do I get an invite one of those boat parties?! They really knew how to party back then.
  - 5y ago
NotChina 5y ago
Just because the ship was discovered off the coast of Egypt does not mean it has anything to do with the culture and people of Modern day Egypt.
- selimthegrim 5y ago
  It’s funny, I don’t think you’d say that about today’s Greeks.
busymom0 5y ago
I was hoping to see few more pictures of the ship. Does anyone have a better link?
- pp19dd 5y ago
  High-res of that 'spiral' detail: https://cloudfront-us-east-1.images.arcpublishing.com/elcomercio/L3TCJPFQGFA2NBNVOSBLO432CM.jpg https://cloudfront-us-east-1.images.arcpublishing.com/elcome... Unfortunately it seems like all that's available is the 3 pictures disseminated by Reuters. The third is an interesting fragment- if those are bore holes, they sure look like they might've had a function. Gallery: https://www.reuters.com/world/africa/egypt-finds-ancient-military-vessel-greek-graves-sunken-city-2021-07-19/ https://www.reuters.com/world/africa/egypt-finds-ancient-mil...
baxtr 5y ago
> Some of the techniques used in building the warship are clearly Greek, like the mortise-and-tenon joints (ones in which a tab from one piece of wood fits into a slot cut into the adjoining piece) that hold many of its timbers together. But other aspects of the ship’s design and construction are distinctly ancient Egyptian. Those clues, combined with some timbers that had evidently been salvaged and re-used from older ships, suggest that the warship was built somewhere in Egypt. Everything is a remix…
markus_zhang 5y ago
I read: Archaeologists find ancient Egyptian worship near Antarctica, and thought: What? Cthulhu?

278 points by diodorus 5y ago

> Clearly, this was no cargo vessel; ships built to haul cargo or passengers tend to be wider, built for capacity rather than speed and agility. Wouldn't a wider ship be more agile? Maybe my intuition fails me, but to me it would seem like like a longer ship is far harder to turn (think of rotating one of those large chef knives in water vs a bowl).

npsomaratna 5y ago
I think that longer = more rowers; less wide = less mass. Wouldn't that mean a more powerful and agile ship?
- eftychis 5y ago
  Wide relates in the end to drag. And yes the number of rowers matters -- a bigger ship requires more rowers, thus more mass etc. Generally, there is the "optimization problem" with each such system that a bigger vehicle requires bigger engine and more fuel which means more mass. But here they mainly refer to the ratio of length versus width and from my and above posters guess they refer to the profile of the boat in the water. Edit: to amend and clarify: mass in a fluid affects displacement (assuming you stay above surface) and thus drag and maximum speed. Here is a crude reference about boat speeds https://www.boats.com/reviews/crunching-numbers-hull-speed-boat-length/ https://www.boats.com/reviews/crunching-numbers-hull-speed-b... -- if I get time I will do more Google fu but I am pretty sure anyone can find the complete derivation online.
  - julosflb 5y ago
    The wave making resistance is generally much larger than pure viscous drag/friction on the hull for conventional boat.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
coryrc 5y ago
On the water, speed is agility, and speed is limited to the square root of length for displacement hulls (which these are). Wider means heavier for a given length, taking longer to speed up, and more friction to overcome.
- pge 5y ago
  wider also means more frontal surface area. Just like a car going through air, less frontal surface area means more aerodynamic (or hydrodynamic), ie lower coefficient of drag. Olympic rowing shells and flatwater kayaks provide good visuals of what a fast displacement hull boat looks like - long and as narrow as possible.
  - coryrc 5y ago
    I think GP is thinking about a row boat, how it can turn on a dime quickly, which is true, but not useful in a sea battle.

eftychis 5y ago

FYI: The site of the European Institute of Underwater Archeology has a lot of information about the site (https://ieasm.institute/egypt.php?lang=en https://ieasm.institute/egypt.php?lang=en).

JudgePenitent 5y ago
Thanks for posting this!
- state_less 5y ago
  Made me think of this song. I’m skeptical of the last line - might still be a little love. The ocean is a desert with it's life underground And a perfect disguise above Under the cities lies a heart made of ground But the humans will give no love -America horse with no name

sanatgersappa 5y ago

How do you write "Ever Given" in heiroglyphics?

prox 5y ago
This is a good question for r/AncientEgyptian

JudgePenitent 5y ago

Fitting that Diodorus should post this to hn. "So far, archaeologists have explored less than five percent of the ancient city." So still much more to come. The story of Heraklion is a great example of climate change and its impacts on human civilization. The other story of Heraklion is its great multiculturalism; it exhibits both Greek and Egyptian influences. I am always fascinated when I hear other nerds describe the process of learning Western history as "begin with the Greeks." And we often base Western civilization upon Greek thought, Roman law. At the same time, I am reminded of the story of Thales who supposedly learned his mathematical talents from Egypt. The interconnection between the two worlds seems obvious to me today, and I often wonder the reasons Westerners usually begin (and, for some, end) with the Greeks. Hopefully Heraklion/Thonis can teach us more about the interrelations between Greece and Egypt; not only how they traded, but who they sat in between, how long this city had been here, did the Sea-Peoples (Phoenicians if you ask me) trade here, and were the populations of Greece and Egypt far closer in cultural heritage than we acknowledge today.

robbiep 5y ago
Regarding your fascination about western history ‘beginning with the Greeks’ I would say the reason why is fairly obvious if you follow the history. Despite the locus of civilisation being in Mesopotamia and Egypt from 5-6000BCE to 500BCE by the time of this discovery (1-200BCE) Egypt had been conquered by Alexander and the (Mid East and Eastern Mediterranean) world divided between his generals. Additionally, whilst there is so much we don’t know of the thought and philiosophy of the area, what has survived to us today in terms of philosophy and law comes from the Greeks and Romans. So for the very early antiquity, you had mathematics and other vestiges of civilisation flowing from Egypt and Mesopotamia to other parts of the world, and then later the conquest of these areas by the Greeks first and then others. Anyway, your comments mark you as being well informed on the history so I am sure you don’t need a lesson from me, maybe the other point I’d make is that the breadth and detail of history makes generalisations such as ‘western history begins with the Greeks’ a more palatable launchpad for consumption than breaking down the nuance that inevitably unfolds on more profound study
- jfoutz 5y ago

adolph 5y ago

Folks who find this interesting might find the Roman Nemi ships interesting. They were likely large scale pleasure barges. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemi_ships https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemi_ships

sitkack 5y ago
> Recovered from the lake bed in 1929, the ships were destroyed by fire during World War II in 1944. These are fantastical!
- jaclaz 5y ago
  I would add that people would likely be interested to the drainage tunnel that the Romans excavated (emissarium) which is an incredible engineering feat, not only because it has an exceptionally accurate (low, 0,8/1% gradient) slope, but because it was excavated from both sides of the mountain and at the connection there was an error of only a few meters. I don't seem to be able to find a dedicated article/site, there is a description in this .pdf: http://soci.romasotterranea.it/image/rassegna_stampa/pdf/12.pdf http://soci.romasotterranea.it/image/rassegna_stampa/pdf/12.... In 1929 the tunnel was re-used pumping in it (with mechanical pumps) the water to be able to recover the wrecks. Also interesting are reports of previous attempts to inspect the ships in the 15th, 16th and 19th century: https://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/encyclopaedia_romana/miscellanea/nemi/nemi.html https://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/encyclopaedia_romana/mi...
  - adolph 5y ago
    Wow, that was a great read and I’m grateful for the English version on the second page.
devoutsalsa 5y ago
How do I get an invite one of those boat parties?! They really knew how to party back then.
- 5y ago

NotChina 5y ago

Just because the ship was discovered off the coast of Egypt does not mean it has anything to do with the culture and people of Modern day Egypt.

selimthegrim 5y ago
It’s funny, I don’t think you’d say that about today’s Greeks.

busymom0 5y ago

I was hoping to see few more pictures of the ship. Does anyone have a better link?

pp19dd 5y ago
High-res of that 'spiral' detail: https://cloudfront-us-east-1.images.arcpublishing.com/elcomercio/L3TCJPFQGFA2NBNVOSBLO432CM.jpg https://cloudfront-us-east-1.images.arcpublishing.com/elcome... Unfortunately it seems like all that's available is the 3 pictures disseminated by Reuters. The third is an interesting fragment- if those are bore holes, they sure look like they might've had a function. Gallery: https://www.reuters.com/world/africa/egypt-finds-ancient-military-vessel-greek-graves-sunken-city-2021-07-19/ https://www.reuters.com/world/africa/egypt-finds-ancient-mil...

baxtr 5y ago

> Some of the techniques used in building the warship are clearly Greek, like the mortise-and-tenon joints (ones in which a tab from one piece of wood fits into a slot cut into the adjoining piece) that hold many of its timbers together. But other aspects of the ship’s design and construction are distinctly ancient Egyptian. Those clues, combined with some timbers that had evidently been salvaged and re-used from older ships, suggest that the warship was built somewhere in Egypt. Everything is a remix…

markus_zhang 5y ago

I read: Archaeologists find ancient Egyptian worship near Antarctica, and thought: What? Cthulhu?