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> The soil is basically just a substrate to hold water and fertilizer, This view is incredibly harmful. What lives in the soil is important too, small animals,

> The soil is basically just a substrate to hold water and fertilizer, This view is incredibly harmful. What lives in the soil is important too, small animals, insects, mushrooms... And the soil supports this. The density, temperature, texture are all factors to it. Every time I get to the US, I'm aghast at the pitiful taste of the fruits and veggies. The way you are growing things produces volumes yes, but of tasteless empty shells of a plant. Of course then you put sugar on everything because the raw thing is aweful to eat. So you get obese people with nutrient deficiency, on top of a dead soil that is an ecological disaster. Seing only one dimension of something or maximizing productivity always leads to some kind of unbalance, and the effects are far reaching.

bpodgursky 5y ago
I sorta suspect that soil conservation is just a vehicle for your complaining, not an end in itself.
- leereeves 5y ago
  No, GP is saying that soil depletion is causing tasteless, nutrient-poor crops, which in turn cause health problems. Not an uncommon view, actually: "fruits and vegetables grown decades ago were much richer in vitamins and minerals than the varieties most of us get today. The main culprit in this disturbing nutritional trend is soil depletion" https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/soil-depletion-aND-NUTRITION-LOSS/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/soil-depletion-aN...
  - baybal2 5y ago
    > Not an uncommon view, actually: And completely unfounded in reality. You can get chewing gum vegetables just anywhere.
  - parineum 5y ago
    That article body doesn't support soil depletion as the cause. It asserts it and then cites a study that doesn't support it. Pretty similar to what you just did actually. >Davis and his colleagues chalk up this declining nutritional content to the preponderance of agricultural practices designed to improve traits (size, growth rate, pest resistance) other than nutrition.
    - leereeves 5y ago
      The article only cites a few studies that show the nutrient content of crops is decreasing. For example, the study you mentioned [1] was "Changes in USDA Food Composition Data for 43 Garden Crops, 1950 to 1999" and showed "apparent, statistically reliable declines" in 6 nutrients. The part of the article that you've quoted is simply Davis' opinion, not the subject of that study. The author has a different opinion. I don't know who is right, which is why I said it's "not an uncommon view". I don't know if that debate has been settled. The article doesn't cite any studies examining the cause of this nutrient depletion, and I didn't find any studies of the cause with a few Google Scholar searches for soil depletion and related terms. If you know of any research that answers the question I'd love to read it. 1: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/07315724.2004.10719409 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/07315724.2004.10...
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
oceanplexian 5y ago
I have experimented with Hydroponics for vegetables and herbs and it all boils down to a science. We know exactly what nutrient ratios a plant needs, at what stages, and so on, and when done in a controlled environment plants are much healthier and have more consistent yields. There is no “magic” to soil, it’s a chemistry problem. After my experiences people who talk about the soils being “depleted” or whatever sound anti-science to me. We are good at growing a lot of food because big ag has figured out the science and is really damn good at it. In fact it is a miracle; only a few short generations ago famines were a common occurrence. Consistency of flavor and yield reigns supreme, because when someone orders a Big Mac or a Bud Light they want it to taste the same every time. Now of course, there is a whole organic and craft market segment for people who disagree with that premise and it’s served quite well in the US for those who want to pay for it.
- user3939382 5y ago
  There is also a role for microbes in soil, which is an active area of research. Here’s some science on it, as an example: https://ohioline.osu.edu/factsheet/SAG-16 https://ohioline.osu.edu/factsheet/SAG-16 I would say that’s more than just chemistry, unless you mean chemistry in a sense that’s so general the statement becomes a tautology.
- smolder 5y ago
  If the chemistry is perfect, why are store bought and fast food tomatoes so bland, for instance? I haven't been scientific about comparing them but the difference in flavor in garden grown tomatoes seems pretty pronounced.
  - yetihehe 5y ago
    Because they are different tomatoes, selected for long storage on shelves in shop, not for taste. Your garden tomato will be much tastier, but will start to spoil sooner.
    - scarby2 5y ago
      Interestingly enough consumers drove the market for tasteless tomatoes. customers bought more tomatoes that were more brightly colored and more round, which drove selection for these characteristics
Pyramus 5y ago
> This view is incredibly harmful. What lives in the soil is important too, small animals, insects, mushrooms... I want to highlight that it's a relatively recent discovery that almost all plants live in a symbiotic relationship with fungi (Mycorrhiza) in the soil, which I wasn't taught in school. Plants can also live without, but the existence of Mycorrhiza fungi impacts plant productivity and robustness. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycorrhiza https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycorrhiza
- LargoLasskhyfv 5y ago
  https://phys.org/news/2021-07-cyborg-soil-reveals-secret-microbial.html https://phys.org/news/2021-07-cyborg-soil-reveals-secret-mic...
ClumsyPilot 5y ago
"people with nutrient deficiency" Nutrients in plants decreased by small amount, but fresh plants in our diet decreased by 90%. Never in history have humans consumed exclusively fried chicken and deef fried potato. The diets are the real culprit. There are complex factors, for example our supply chain takes tomatoes before they are ripe - a ripe tomato is so soft, it's impossible to get to the consumer in one piece
- BiteCode_dev 5y ago
  People eat fried chickens because their greens taste like crap while the fried chicken taste good even with a crap chicken. Give a person delicious plants, and they will eat them.

bpodgursky 5y ago

I sorta suspect that soil conservation is just a vehicle for your complaining, not an end in itself.

leereeves 5y ago
No, GP is saying that soil depletion is causing tasteless, nutrient-poor crops, which in turn cause health problems. Not an uncommon view, actually: "fruits and vegetables grown decades ago were much richer in vitamins and minerals than the varieties most of us get today. The main culprit in this disturbing nutritional trend is soil depletion" https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/soil-depletion-aND-NUTRITION-LOSS/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/soil-depletion-aN...
- baybal2 5y ago
  > Not an uncommon view, actually: And completely unfounded in reality. You can get chewing gum vegetables just anywhere.
- parineum 5y ago
  That article body doesn't support soil depletion as the cause. It asserts it and then cites a study that doesn't support it. Pretty similar to what you just did actually. >Davis and his colleagues chalk up this declining nutritional content to the preponderance of agricultural practices designed to improve traits (size, growth rate, pest resistance) other than nutrition.
  - leereeves 5y ago
    The article only cites a few studies that show the nutrient content of crops is decreasing. For example, the study you mentioned [1] was "Changes in USDA Food Composition Data for 43 Garden Crops, 1950 to 1999" and showed "apparent, statistically reliable declines" in 6 nutrients. The part of the article that you've quoted is simply Davis' opinion, not the subject of that study. The author has a different opinion. I don't know who is right, which is why I said it's "not an uncommon view". I don't know if that debate has been settled. The article doesn't cite any studies examining the cause of this nutrient depletion, and I didn't find any studies of the cause with a few Google Scholar searches for soil depletion and related terms. If you know of any research that answers the question I'd love to read it. 1: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/07315724.2004.10719409 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/07315724.2004.10...

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

oceanplexian 5y ago

I have experimented with Hydroponics for vegetables and herbs and it all boils down to a science. We know exactly what nutrient ratios a plant needs, at what stages, and so on, and when done in a controlled environment plants are much healthier and have more consistent yields. There is no “magic” to soil, it’s a chemistry problem. After my experiences people who talk about the soils being “depleted” or whatever sound anti-science to me. We are good at growing a lot of food because big ag has figured out the science and is really damn good at it. In fact it is a miracle; only a few short generations ago famines were a common occurrence. Consistency of flavor and yield reigns supreme, because when someone orders a Big Mac or a Bud Light they want it to taste the same every time. Now of course, there is a whole organic and craft market segment for people who disagree with that premise and it’s served quite well in the US for those who want to pay for it.

user3939382 5y ago
There is also a role for microbes in soil, which is an active area of research. Here’s some science on it, as an example: https://ohioline.osu.edu/factsheet/SAG-16 https://ohioline.osu.edu/factsheet/SAG-16 I would say that’s more than just chemistry, unless you mean chemistry in a sense that’s so general the statement becomes a tautology.
smolder 5y ago
If the chemistry is perfect, why are store bought and fast food tomatoes so bland, for instance? I haven't been scientific about comparing them but the difference in flavor in garden grown tomatoes seems pretty pronounced.
- yetihehe 5y ago
  Because they are different tomatoes, selected for long storage on shelves in shop, not for taste. Your garden tomato will be much tastier, but will start to spoil sooner.
  - scarby2 5y ago
    Interestingly enough consumers drove the market for tasteless tomatoes. customers bought more tomatoes that were more brightly colored and more round, which drove selection for these characteristics

Pyramus 5y ago

> This view is incredibly harmful. What lives in the soil is important too, small animals, insects, mushrooms... I want to highlight that it's a relatively recent discovery that almost all plants live in a symbiotic relationship with fungi (Mycorrhiza) in the soil, which I wasn't taught in school. Plants can also live without, but the existence of Mycorrhiza fungi impacts plant productivity and robustness. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycorrhiza https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycorrhiza

LargoLasskhyfv 5y ago
https://phys.org/news/2021-07-cyborg-soil-reveals-secret-microbial.html https://phys.org/news/2021-07-cyborg-soil-reveals-secret-mic...

ClumsyPilot 5y ago

"people with nutrient deficiency" Nutrients in plants decreased by small amount, but fresh plants in our diet decreased by 90%. Never in history have humans consumed exclusively fried chicken and deef fried potato. The diets are the real culprit. There are complex factors, for example our supply chain takes tomatoes before they are ripe - a ripe tomato is so soft, it's impossible to get to the consumer in one piece

BiteCode_dev 5y ago
People eat fried chickens because their greens taste like crap while the fried chicken taste good even with a crap chicken. Give a person delicious plants, and they will eat them.