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A common quote on HN (and one that I firmly believe in) is: > It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not underst

by cletus 5y ago

A common quote on HN (and one that I firmly believe in) is: > It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it. This so applies to AirBnB. It's not salary per se but those that benefit by renting out units or those for whom this has saved them money I've found typically get so defensive about AirBnB to the point of calling detractors NIMBYists and the like. I've long thought that AirBnB allows people to profit off something that others around them bear the negative externalities from but I think it's even worse than I would've pegged it. Clear negatives: 1. Reduces housing supply; 2. Creates safety problems; 3. Creates nuisance problems; and 4. Brings temporary residents into neighbourhoods that have no tie to that neighbourhood. To be clear, I don't have a problem with people renting out rooms or an ADU on their property. Most cities don't either. But AirBnB is clearly used to create illegal hotels and that's the problem.

virtue3 5y ago
I have 100% issue with people turning their properties in SF into airbnb hotels. You're just skirting the fucking law at that point. The area was zoned for -HOUSING- not a hotel. I've used airbnb a lot in the past, but now that regulators have gotten a hold of it; it's basically a barely cheaper hotel with a lot more ??? on whether or not the place is good and the hosts live up to their reviews.
elzbardico 5y ago
I agree with all of your points, at least at some point. This doesn’t mean I should call treat this “study” as science, as it is not.
random314 5y ago
I have neither rented or rented out an Airbnb. However, I see no problem with a homeowner renting out his home for short periods. Everything we do has negative externalities, including driving a car. I don't see how Airbnb's are considered so bad. Moreover this is a correlation study in one city. The title implies a causal analysis which this is not. Pretty easy to phack your way to whatever conclusion you want using correlations. Moreover what is the magnitude of increase? From 0.0001% to 0.001% . The article should show some absolute counts.
JMTQp8lwXL 5y ago
Twice I've booked airbnb's in buildings where it was not allowed, and I didn't find out until picking up the keys. It's incredibly frustrating (one of building had concierge who gave us hard time). Next time, I'll just go with a traditional hotel to avoid the stress. Both times, I saw other groups of people with luggage coming in and out. So it likely was impacting multiple units in both buildings.
- eganist 5y ago
  In fairness, the stress shouldn't be yours to sweat. If someone loses their rental to anti short-term leasing rules, that's really on the renter who's subletting it out to you via Airbnb.
  - jen20 5y ago
    Depends whether it happens literally during the middle of your stay, as I have experienced.
    - eganist 5y ago
      A landlord evicted you mid-stay without warning? That sounds extreme, and I'm having a hard time finding others who've experienced the same online (all of what I'm finding is around people being kicked out for parties). Do you have anything I can reference? Asking because I'd feel like the burden in just about all cases is on the landlord to put everything in motion to evict a tenant (whether it be an airbnb user or the tenant subletting via airbnb), but I'm not an attorney.
      - jen20 5y ago
        A building did, yes. It required fob access and was clearly being sublet against the contract. The fobs stopped working, and there was no remedy. This was in 2014 in New York City, I forget the precise building though.
  - GoOnThenDoTell 5y ago
    It’s stressful to know you’re unwelcome
ardit33 5y ago
Well, you could include Craigslist in that, everything under the sun. AirBnb/VRBO/Boooking.com all have their use. The problem is when people rent/sublet their apt. in buildings that don't allow it, and cause nuisance to all. Buildings should be able to opt out, and airbnb should respect it, and ban users that misuse it. But, i bet, in the name of profit, things get overlooked. Anyways, if Airbnb is banned in a city, most of these apt will end up in VRBO/Booking.com/Craigslist, etc... etc... so it doesn't solve much. So, you have to ban all, and not just one. Is that realistic?
- DeRock 5y ago
  I don't think Craigslist gets used much for vacation rentals. Its certainly not well designed for that use case.
- afthonos 5y ago
  As always, it’s an issue of reach. AirBnB is the place to book non-hotel accommodations. Anyone who wants to can put their room or flat on there, and everyone who wants to find one knows where to look.
  - threatofrain 5y ago
    So is the problem that the airbnb app is too good? And the craigslist world is okay?
    - drusepth 5y ago
      This sounds surprisingly similar to the (old) anti-Uber argument wrt taxis.
- Spivak 5y ago
  > Buildings should be able to opt out, and airbnb should respect it, and ban users that misuse it. I think this is the part that kinda irks me though. Why would any building, township, city ever opt-in? You're specifically asking the people who have every incentive to say no while completely ignoring the renters and tenants who actually benefit from the transaction. If you only ask the people who own property near where the city wants to build a new highway color me surprised when it's a resounding no.
bostonsre 5y ago
> It's not salary per se but those that benefit by renting out units or those for whom this has saved them money I've found typically get so defensive about AirBnB to the point of calling detractors NIMBYists and the like. Isn't the other side of the argument also concerned with housing prices and money? > To be clear, I don't have a problem with people renting out rooms or an ADU on their property. What do you see as the differences between airbnb and this? The line between the two seems a little blurry to me and it seems odd to me that someone could be completely fine with one but completely against the other.
- dorchadas 5y ago
  > What do you see as the differences between airbnb and this? Not OP, but I share a similar view. If you're renting out a room of an ADU, you're still occupying the property and using it as housing yourself. The whole difference is that the sole use of the property is not taking it off the long term rental/buying market. With spare rooms/ADUs, that's not the purpose of the property, whereas with renting out a whole house it is.
  - bostonsre 5y ago
    Don't some listings on airbnb do the exact same thing? Would those be ok from airbnb if they stopped the other types? Is the only difference having a landlord on site?
    - dorchadas 5y ago
      I absolutely would be more accepting of it if they only allowed ones where the landlord was on-site, yes.
      - enjo 5y ago
        In Denver the law is that a person can only AirBnb a property that is their primary residence. If you have an ADU or want to rent a room you can do that full time. We rent our place when we travel.. It seems like a good compromise to me.
andrepd 5y ago
>I've long thought that AirBnB allows people to profit off something that others around them bear the negative externalities from The more you think about it the more you begin to realise that this applies to almost everything you can think of. Our economic system is just bad at properly allocating rewards and value.
- bostonsre 5y ago
  Generally, I think that shit rolls down hill and harms those without more often. Which is why I think this airbnb case is so interesting as it inverts the shit rolling direction in some cases. Those that are being disrupted and impacted in this case are those with houses and property. Silicon valley is almost disrupting silicon valley as equally as everyone else for once.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
thereisnospork 5y ago
Airbnb should be a boon to the local economy. Tourists with money to spend at local businesses is literally the basis of the entire economy for multiple regions around the world. It's only a 'problem' because our local governments have perverted the housing market (and hotel market) with a Gordian knot's worth of regulation and red tape. How is it that we as a society are so dysfunctional as to be unable to build concrete cubes with windows at an affordable price?
- conradev 5y ago
  If tourism is the basis of the entire economy for a given region, then that region usually has plenty of legal short-term accommodation options. Not to mention that these options are usually cheaper than Airbnb!
  - Matticus_Rex 5y ago
    >Not to mention that these options are usually cheaper than Airbnb! Not in my experience, at least not for anything comparable. Yes, a 3-star queen room in the city without a kitchenette is cheaper than a studio queen Airbnb ten minutes out from downtown, but it's not comparable.
intricatedetail 5y ago
Exactly. The whole concept of residential property as an investment must go. I wonder if enough AirBnB in the area could actually drive property cost down, because nobody would like to live there long term and then essentially wiping off all the profits people made by renting out. In the end only the AirBnB would really profit. It's a business model clearly bases on a loophole and should be closed. If someone wants to run a bed and breakfast they should get a suitable commercial property.
- spamizbad 5y ago
  > The whole concept of residential property as an investment must go. One of the major "lessons" of the famous book Rich Dad, Poor Dad was that wise wealthy people view housing as an asset and investment, whereas poor and middle class people merely view it as an expense. This thinking is now deeply ingrained in our culture.
  - diognesofsinope 5y ago
    I mean, it is an investment. However the success of that investment basically means depriving future generations of a home, which they are fine with doing, clearly.
  - whoaisme 5y ago
    Which is crazy. Wealthy people can afford to view housing as an asset because they are wealthy. Poor people can't afford property because they are poor. That's like saying feudal lords were wise for viewing grain as an asset and not an expense. Wild.
    - alpha42 5y ago
      Clearly you need to play more civilization builder games. Grain is the most important asset, without it you can neither feed your people nor sell the excess to your starving neighbors for sweet gold coins.
      - 5y ago
PragmaticPulp 5y ago
> But AirBnB is clearly used to create illegal hotels and that's the problem. The solution is increased enforcement of the laws that make these illegal. The incentives aren't difficult: Create an anonymous tip line to report illegal AirBnB operations that violate zoning regulations. Have submitters provide the street address and URL of the AirBnB to make it easy. The person operating the AirBnB (or owner of the house) gets fined. The person submitting the tip about an illegal AirBnB receives 25% of the fine. It wouldn't take long for illegal AirBnBs to close up shop when they realize there are negative repercussions for what they're doing. Keep it anonymous to avoid retribution. I could even see bargain hunters looking for illegal AirBnBs to stay in, then reporting their hosts to collect their share of the resulting fine to recover some of the cost. The incentives are deeply stacked against the illegal AirBnB operators in this scenario. Of course, this only works in areas where it's illegal to run temporary rentals. I expect we'll see more of those regulations as the problems with short-term AirBnBs in residential areas become more apparent.
- Tempest1981 5y ago
  But who should pay for the increased enforcement? > anonymous tip line Run by Airbnb? Seems reasonable.
  - Jarwain 5y ago
    Ideally the fines would pay for the program, but how expensive is it really to have an anonymous phone tip line, and reuse existing infrastructure to fine or ticket a property owner?
    - jolux 5y ago
      > how expensive is it really The answer, as with all govtech, is “a lot more than it should be.” Governments, especially local governments, have no internal technology competence, and have to rely on vendors and contractors for absolutely everything.
      - 5y ago
somethingyammy 5y ago
>> It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it. Pretty ironic coming from someone from Perth: http://www.watoindia.in/wa/html/perth-majorindustries.htm http://www.watoindia.in/wa/html/perth-majorindustries.htm >By virtue of its population and role as the administrative centre for business and government, Perth dominates the Western Australian economy, despite the major mining, petroleum and agricultural export industries located elsewhere in the state. To be clear, I don't have a problem with people living in Australia. But it's clear Perth and its residents exist off the back of negative externalities and need to be banned.
threatofrain 5y ago
With or without airbnb, states aren't about to create anything close to a policy which compels existing landowners to rent out parts of their property. How do you increase housing supply?
- voisin 5y ago
  Connecting two parties together to rent a place is no problem in general. But the difference here is that AirBNB has, until very recently, been extremely focused on short term rentals that walk and talk like hotels. Most cities ban rentals less than 30 days, unless it is a room in someone’s house or another dwelling unit on their property. AirBNB was great when it was filled with this, but as soon as multi-unit operators took over the site and it became filled with unlicensed hotels that flout the city bylaws, it went downhill and I fully agree that this impacted the supply and pushed negative externalities on everyone else.
- mdorazio 5y ago
  1) Change zoning to actually allow mixed use and high-density living space instead of single-family 2) Fix tax laws and incentives so that property owners actually pay tax based on the real value of the property instead of whatever nonsense they pay today (California is especially bad for this, but the mortgage interest tax deduction sure as hell doesn't help) 3) Reduce red tape and regulatory bullshit that slows or massively drives up the cost of new developments
woopwoop 5y ago
1 is not an externality. It is fully priced in to the cost of renting the unit.
- tengbretson 5y ago
  Temporary lodging and long term housing are not substitutable which means that Airbnbs are introducing net-new increases in demand in an area.
GuB-42 5y ago
> Reduces housing supply I am a bit confused about this one. AirBnB does not destroy buildings, and they don't keep places empty, empty buildings make no money. In fact, before it started to be used as pseudo-hotels, it was a way for people to monetize the time they don't spend at home by having a tenant. I mean, before AirBnB, where were travelers staying? Hotels are the obvious answer, but AFAIK hotels still have customers. So what is happening? Are there more travelers than before (outside of pandemics)? Not saying that there is no problem with AirBnB, but it shouldn't reduce housing supply unless there is some deeper underlying problem.
- hermitdev 5y ago
  It reduces the supply of long term housing. Units that would otherwise be up for sale or rent under a standard term rental are now being used as short term rentals
- rrrrrrrrrrrryan 5y ago
  Here in San Diego (a big tourist town), in recent years our hotel vacancy is rising, and rents are rising as well, as tourists flood into livable dwellings (Airbnbs). Further, hotel taxes used to fund a great deal of the city, but Airbnbs are not subject to the tax, so the city's finances are struggling as well. Personally I'm fine with Airbnbs, and I often stay in them myself when I travel, but if you own more than one Airbnb, you should probably be taxed (and regulated) similar to a hotel owner.
  - kelnos 5y ago
    > Further, hotel taxes used to fund a great deal of the city, but Airbnbs are not subject to the tax, so the city's finances are struggling as well. That's really San Diego's fault, though. Many cities and states have classified Airbnbs as hotels for taxation purposes, or created new (taxed) categories specifically for them. For example, Hawaii charges a "transient accommodations tax" of 10.5%, as well as a general excise tax of 4%, and counties can add more to that if they want.
    - 5y ago
forrestthewoods 5y ago
> AirBnB is clearly used to create illegal hotels and that's the problem I agree. It shouldn’t be illegal.
- _carbyau_ 5y ago
  By that reasoning, sex workers should be able to operate from any home too. Or carpenters. Or mechanics. Or pubs. Or concerts... There is a reason zoning exists.
  - forrestthewoods 5y ago
    > By that reasoning No! Bad! Stop that!! The fact that I think some currently illegal things should be legal is not evidence that anything and everything should be legal. Similarly the fact that some things are made illegal is not automatic evidence or reasoning that another, different thing should also be illegal. Different things are different. The reasons why one thing should be legal or illegal may or may not apply to a different thing.
    - _carbyau_ 5y ago
      LOL! I am not your dog. :-) The "reasoning" was that a hotelier business was fine to run in the middle of a community. I merely listed other example businesses as a lede. You seem to think there are reasons for why one business might be ok but others aren't. Care to detail those reasons? Or are you worried that those reasons also apply to AirBnB?
  - lordnacho 5y ago
    As always it's a matter of judgement which businesses are ok and which are a nuisance. Any number of desk job type businesses would not worry me much. Strip joints tend to be open late at night and have lots of traffic, so that's the other end of the spectrum. AirBnB for me is not necessarily at the desk job end but they're also not at the strip joint end. I think it's up for debate.
    - 5y ago
dougSF70 5y ago
I am generally against airbnb as it induces rent-seeking behavior. This is bad for the economy because you are not adding value (in an economic sense). Plus the added dis benefits if increasing rent, reducing housing supply, etc. Ultimately it is a product of cheap money and as soon as the money is no longer cheap, it will be detrimental to airbnb. Sadly, the pandemic has increased our government's addiction to printing money...
- enjo 5y ago
  Does a hotel not add economic value?
  - michaelmrose 5y ago
    Most places have enough hotel capacity except for very special occasions meaning it mostly shifts value. To an extent it has an effect it mostly decreases average cost of staying while increasing cost of actually living there almost like vacuuming money out the pockets of residents to give to Airbnb and tourists.
    - dougSF70 5y ago
      I am not even sure it decreases the cost of staying. Hotels are remarkable value except during peak season, and even then airbnb are also expensive. No financial benefit to the tourist.
callmeed 5y ago
> 4. Brings temporary residents into neighbourhoods that have no tie to that neighbourhood. Where I live we call this "tourism"
- eyeundersand 5y ago
  Was going to make a similar comment. Don't see how this is being viewed as a negative.
  - cletus 5y ago
    Tourists aren't a negative per se. Tourists staying in illegal hotels in areas and buildings not designed for such in a way that sometimes belies their total lack of having to deal with any of the consequences... that's something else. Rowdy parties, property damage (including common areas), harassment and nuisance, more serious violence and even cases of running a meth lab... that's something else.
  - oblio 5y ago
    A rotating gallery of total strangers out to have fun every day (including party), with absolutely no care for repercussions since they're only temporarily there, I wonder what could go wrong for locals?! https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/greater-internet-fuckwad-theory https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/greater-internet-fuckwad-theo...
- HWR_14 5y ago
  Who wants tourists in their building? And, seriously, unless you are in the hospitality industry then why would you want them around at all? And if you are, you probably ant tourists that stay in hotels and eat in restaurants, not in a little apartment.
glglwty 5y ago
Externalities caused by Airbnb opposers: 1. Block people's access to tourism 2. Worsen the economy by artificially cuts demand from supply 3. Hurt tourism workers including restaurants workers, etc 4. Create segregation which is partially what nativism is about 5. Hurt people who live there and love talking to travellers If you don't want "other people" in your sight and zero nuisance, buy the entire street. Personal preference relying on inefficient resource allocation should be paid for.
pengaru 5y ago
> 4. Brings temporary residents into neighbourhoods that have no tie to that neighbourhood. You're completely missing the real problem with this. It's not just that short-term rentals bring in transients, keeping the housing unit available for short-term rentals displaces long-term residents who would have ties with the neighborhood, and in the best case of owner-occupied not just ties, but pride in ownership and a vested interest in maintaining both good relationships with the neighborhood and good working order of their property.
- throwaway9980 5y ago
  This is a really important point that you’ve called out. All of those Airbnbs in your neighborhood are preventing the formation of new communal relationships.
- dumpsterdiver 5y ago
  > You're completely missing the real problem with this. It's not just that short-term rentals bring in transients, keeping the housing unit available for short-term rentals displaces long-term residents who would have ties with the neighborhood, and in the best case of owner-occupied not just ties, but pride in ownership and a vested interest in maintaining both good relationships with the neighborhood and good working order of their property. Didn't they cover that with item #1: "1. Reduces housing supply"? I don't think they missed it.
visarga 5y ago
> 4. Brings temporary residents into neighbourhoods that have no tie to that neighbourhood. That's the most attractive thing about AirBnB for me, seeing real homes and not living off a hotel room.

by cletus 5y ago

virtue3 5y ago

I have 100% issue with people turning their properties in SF into airbnb hotels. You're just skirting the fucking law at that point. The area was zoned for -HOUSING- not a hotel. I've used airbnb a lot in the past, but now that regulators have gotten a hold of it; it's basically a barely cheaper hotel with a lot more ??? on whether or not the place is good and the hosts live up to their reviews.

elzbardico 5y ago

I agree with all of your points, at least at some point. This doesn’t mean I should call treat this “study” as science, as it is not.

random314 5y ago

I have neither rented or rented out an Airbnb. However, I see no problem with a homeowner renting out his home for short periods. Everything we do has negative externalities, including driving a car. I don't see how Airbnb's are considered so bad. Moreover this is a correlation study in one city. The title implies a causal analysis which this is not. Pretty easy to phack your way to whatever conclusion you want using correlations. Moreover what is the magnitude of increase? From 0.0001% to 0.001% . The article should show some absolute counts.

JMTQp8lwXL 5y ago

Twice I've booked airbnb's in buildings where it was not allowed, and I didn't find out until picking up the keys. It's incredibly frustrating (one of building had concierge who gave us hard time). Next time, I'll just go with a traditional hotel to avoid the stress. Both times, I saw other groups of people with luggage coming in and out. So it likely was impacting multiple units in both buildings.

eganist 5y ago
In fairness, the stress shouldn't be yours to sweat. If someone loses their rental to anti short-term leasing rules, that's really on the renter who's subletting it out to you via Airbnb.
- jen20 5y ago
  Depends whether it happens literally during the middle of your stay, as I have experienced.
  - eganist 5y ago
    A landlord evicted you mid-stay without warning? That sounds extreme, and I'm having a hard time finding others who've experienced the same online (all of what I'm finding is around people being kicked out for parties). Do you have anything I can reference? Asking because I'd feel like the burden in just about all cases is on the landlord to put everything in motion to evict a tenant (whether it be an airbnb user or the tenant subletting via airbnb), but I'm not an attorney.
    - jen20 5y ago
      A building did, yes. It required fob access and was clearly being sublet against the contract. The fobs stopped working, and there was no remedy. This was in 2014 in New York City, I forget the precise building though.
- GoOnThenDoTell 5y ago
  It’s stressful to know you’re unwelcome

ardit33 5y ago

Well, you could include Craigslist in that, everything under the sun. AirBnb/VRBO/Boooking.com all have their use. The problem is when people rent/sublet their apt. in buildings that don't allow it, and cause nuisance to all. Buildings should be able to opt out, and airbnb should respect it, and ban users that misuse it. But, i bet, in the name of profit, things get overlooked. Anyways, if Airbnb is banned in a city, most of these apt will end up in VRBO/Booking.com/Craigslist, etc... etc... so it doesn't solve much. So, you have to ban all, and not just one. Is that realistic?

DeRock 5y ago
I don't think Craigslist gets used much for vacation rentals. Its certainly not well designed for that use case.
afthonos 5y ago
As always, it’s an issue of reach. AirBnB is the place to book non-hotel accommodations. Anyone who wants to can put their room or flat on there, and everyone who wants to find one knows where to look.
- threatofrain 5y ago
  So is the problem that the airbnb app is too good? And the craigslist world is okay?
  - drusepth 5y ago
    This sounds surprisingly similar to the (old) anti-Uber argument wrt taxis.
Spivak 5y ago
> Buildings should be able to opt out, and airbnb should respect it, and ban users that misuse it. I think this is the part that kinda irks me though. Why would any building, township, city ever opt-in? You're specifically asking the people who have every incentive to say no while completely ignoring the renters and tenants who actually benefit from the transaction. If you only ask the people who own property near where the city wants to build a new highway color me surprised when it's a resounding no.

bostonsre 5y ago

> It's not salary per se but those that benefit by renting out units or those for whom this has saved them money I've found typically get so defensive about AirBnB to the point of calling detractors NIMBYists and the like. Isn't the other side of the argument also concerned with housing prices and money? > To be clear, I don't have a problem with people renting out rooms or an ADU on their property. What do you see as the differences between airbnb and this? The line between the two seems a little blurry to me and it seems odd to me that someone could be completely fine with one but completely against the other.

dorchadas 5y ago
> What do you see as the differences between airbnb and this? Not OP, but I share a similar view. If you're renting out a room of an ADU, you're still occupying the property and using it as housing yourself. The whole difference is that the sole use of the property is not taking it off the long term rental/buying market. With spare rooms/ADUs, that's not the purpose of the property, whereas with renting out a whole house it is.
- bostonsre 5y ago
  Don't some listings on airbnb do the exact same thing? Would those be ok from airbnb if they stopped the other types? Is the only difference having a landlord on site?
  - dorchadas 5y ago
    I absolutely would be more accepting of it if they only allowed ones where the landlord was on-site, yes.
    - enjo 5y ago
      In Denver the law is that a person can only AirBnb a property that is their primary residence. If you have an ADU or want to rent a room you can do that full time. We rent our place when we travel.. It seems like a good compromise to me.

andrepd 5y ago

>I've long thought that AirBnB allows people to profit off something that others around them bear the negative externalities from The more you think about it the more you begin to realise that this applies to almost everything you can think of. Our economic system is just bad at properly allocating rewards and value.

bostonsre 5y ago
Generally, I think that shit rolls down hill and harms those without more often. Which is why I think this airbnb case is so interesting as it inverts the shit rolling direction in some cases. Those that are being disrupted and impacted in this case are those with houses and property. Silicon valley is almost disrupting silicon valley as equally as everyone else for once.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

thereisnospork 5y ago

Airbnb should be a boon to the local economy. Tourists with money to spend at local businesses is literally the basis of the entire economy for multiple regions around the world. It's only a 'problem' because our local governments have perverted the housing market (and hotel market) with a Gordian knot's worth of regulation and red tape. How is it that we as a society are so dysfunctional as to be unable to build concrete cubes with windows at an affordable price?

conradev 5y ago
If tourism is the basis of the entire economy for a given region, then that region usually has plenty of legal short-term accommodation options. Not to mention that these options are usually cheaper than Airbnb!
- Matticus_Rex 5y ago
  >Not to mention that these options are usually cheaper than Airbnb! Not in my experience, at least not for anything comparable. Yes, a 3-star queen room in the city without a kitchenette is cheaper than a studio queen Airbnb ten minutes out from downtown, but it's not comparable.

intricatedetail 5y ago

Exactly. The whole concept of residential property as an investment must go. I wonder if enough AirBnB in the area could actually drive property cost down, because nobody would like to live there long term and then essentially wiping off all the profits people made by renting out. In the end only the AirBnB would really profit. It's a business model clearly bases on a loophole and should be closed. If someone wants to run a bed and breakfast they should get a suitable commercial property.

spamizbad 5y ago
> The whole concept of residential property as an investment must go. One of the major "lessons" of the famous book Rich Dad, Poor Dad was that wise wealthy people view housing as an asset and investment, whereas poor and middle class people merely view it as an expense. This thinking is now deeply ingrained in our culture.
- diognesofsinope 5y ago
  I mean, it is an investment. However the success of that investment basically means depriving future generations of a home, which they are fine with doing, clearly.
- whoaisme 5y ago
  Which is crazy. Wealthy people can afford to view housing as an asset because they are wealthy. Poor people can't afford property because they are poor. That's like saying feudal lords were wise for viewing grain as an asset and not an expense. Wild.
  - alpha42 5y ago
    Clearly you need to play more civilization builder games. Grain is the most important asset, without it you can neither feed your people nor sell the excess to your starving neighbors for sweet gold coins.
    - 5y ago

PragmaticPulp 5y ago

> But AirBnB is clearly used to create illegal hotels and that's the problem. The solution is increased enforcement of the laws that make these illegal. The incentives aren't difficult: Create an anonymous tip line to report illegal AirBnB operations that violate zoning regulations. Have submitters provide the street address and URL of the AirBnB to make it easy. The person operating the AirBnB (or owner of the house) gets fined. The person submitting the tip about an illegal AirBnB receives 25% of the fine. It wouldn't take long for illegal AirBnBs to close up shop when they realize there are negative repercussions for what they're doing. Keep it anonymous to avoid retribution. I could even see bargain hunters looking for illegal AirBnBs to stay in, then reporting their hosts to collect their share of the resulting fine to recover some of the cost. The incentives are deeply stacked against the illegal AirBnB operators in this scenario. Of course, this only works in areas where it's illegal to run temporary rentals. I expect we'll see more of those regulations as the problems with short-term AirBnBs in residential areas become more apparent.

Tempest1981 5y ago
But who should pay for the increased enforcement? > anonymous tip line Run by Airbnb? Seems reasonable.
- Jarwain 5y ago
  Ideally the fines would pay for the program, but how expensive is it really to have an anonymous phone tip line, and reuse existing infrastructure to fine or ticket a property owner?
  - jolux 5y ago
    > how expensive is it really The answer, as with all govtech, is “a lot more than it should be.” Governments, especially local governments, have no internal technology competence, and have to rely on vendors and contractors for absolutely everything.
    - 5y ago

somethingyammy 5y ago

>> It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it. Pretty ironic coming from someone from Perth: http://www.watoindia.in/wa/html/perth-majorindustries.htm http://www.watoindia.in/wa/html/perth-majorindustries.htm >By virtue of its population and role as the administrative centre for business and government, Perth dominates the Western Australian economy, despite the major mining, petroleum and agricultural export industries located elsewhere in the state. To be clear, I don't have a problem with people living in Australia. But it's clear Perth and its residents exist off the back of negative externalities and need to be banned.

threatofrain 5y ago

With or without airbnb, states aren't about to create anything close to a policy which compels existing landowners to rent out parts of their property. How do you increase housing supply?

voisin 5y ago
Connecting two parties together to rent a place is no problem in general. But the difference here is that AirBNB has, until very recently, been extremely focused on short term rentals that walk and talk like hotels. Most cities ban rentals less than 30 days, unless it is a room in someone’s house or another dwelling unit on their property. AirBNB was great when it was filled with this, but as soon as multi-unit operators took over the site and it became filled with unlicensed hotels that flout the city bylaws, it went downhill and I fully agree that this impacted the supply and pushed negative externalities on everyone else.
mdorazio 5y ago
1) Change zoning to actually allow mixed use and high-density living space instead of single-family 2) Fix tax laws and incentives so that property owners actually pay tax based on the real value of the property instead of whatever nonsense they pay today (California is especially bad for this, but the mortgage interest tax deduction sure as hell doesn't help) 3) Reduce red tape and regulatory bullshit that slows or massively drives up the cost of new developments

woopwoop 5y ago

1 is not an externality. It is fully priced in to the cost of renting the unit.

tengbretson 5y ago
Temporary lodging and long term housing are not substitutable which means that Airbnbs are introducing net-new increases in demand in an area.

GuB-42 5y ago

> Reduces housing supply I am a bit confused about this one. AirBnB does not destroy buildings, and they don't keep places empty, empty buildings make no money. In fact, before it started to be used as pseudo-hotels, it was a way for people to monetize the time they don't spend at home by having a tenant. I mean, before AirBnB, where were travelers staying? Hotels are the obvious answer, but AFAIK hotels still have customers. So what is happening? Are there more travelers than before (outside of pandemics)? Not saying that there is no problem with AirBnB, but it shouldn't reduce housing supply unless there is some deeper underlying problem.

hermitdev 5y ago
It reduces the supply of long term housing. Units that would otherwise be up for sale or rent under a standard term rental are now being used as short term rentals
rrrrrrrrrrrryan 5y ago
Here in San Diego (a big tourist town), in recent years our hotel vacancy is rising, and rents are rising as well, as tourists flood into livable dwellings (Airbnbs). Further, hotel taxes used to fund a great deal of the city, but Airbnbs are not subject to the tax, so the city's finances are struggling as well. Personally I'm fine with Airbnbs, and I often stay in them myself when I travel, but if you own more than one Airbnb, you should probably be taxed (and regulated) similar to a hotel owner.
- kelnos 5y ago
  > Further, hotel taxes used to fund a great deal of the city, but Airbnbs are not subject to the tax, so the city's finances are struggling as well. That's really San Diego's fault, though. Many cities and states have classified Airbnbs as hotels for taxation purposes, or created new (taxed) categories specifically for them. For example, Hawaii charges a "transient accommodations tax" of 10.5%, as well as a general excise tax of 4%, and counties can add more to that if they want.
  - 5y ago

forrestthewoods 5y ago

> AirBnB is clearly used to create illegal hotels and that's the problem I agree. It shouldn’t be illegal.

_carbyau_ 5y ago
By that reasoning, sex workers should be able to operate from any home too. Or carpenters. Or mechanics. Or pubs. Or concerts... There is a reason zoning exists.
- forrestthewoods 5y ago
  > By that reasoning No! Bad! Stop that!! The fact that I think some currently illegal things should be legal is not evidence that anything and everything should be legal. Similarly the fact that some things are made illegal is not automatic evidence or reasoning that another, different thing should also be illegal. Different things are different. The reasons why one thing should be legal or illegal may or may not apply to a different thing.
  - _carbyau_ 5y ago
    LOL! I am not your dog. :-) The "reasoning" was that a hotelier business was fine to run in the middle of a community. I merely listed other example businesses as a lede. You seem to think there are reasons for why one business might be ok but others aren't. Care to detail those reasons? Or are you worried that those reasons also apply to AirBnB?
- lordnacho 5y ago
  As always it's a matter of judgement which businesses are ok and which are a nuisance. Any number of desk job type businesses would not worry me much. Strip joints tend to be open late at night and have lots of traffic, so that's the other end of the spectrum. AirBnB for me is not necessarily at the desk job end but they're also not at the strip joint end. I think it's up for debate.
  - 5y ago

dougSF70 5y ago

I am generally against airbnb as it induces rent-seeking behavior. This is bad for the economy because you are not adding value (in an economic sense). Plus the added dis benefits if increasing rent, reducing housing supply, etc. Ultimately it is a product of cheap money and as soon as the money is no longer cheap, it will be detrimental to airbnb. Sadly, the pandemic has increased our government's addiction to printing money...

enjo 5y ago
Does a hotel not add economic value?
- michaelmrose 5y ago
  Most places have enough hotel capacity except for very special occasions meaning it mostly shifts value. To an extent it has an effect it mostly decreases average cost of staying while increasing cost of actually living there almost like vacuuming money out the pockets of residents to give to Airbnb and tourists.
  - dougSF70 5y ago
    I am not even sure it decreases the cost of staying. Hotels are remarkable value except during peak season, and even then airbnb are also expensive. No financial benefit to the tourist.

callmeed 5y ago

> 4. Brings temporary residents into neighbourhoods that have no tie to that neighbourhood. Where I live we call this "tourism"

eyeundersand 5y ago
Was going to make a similar comment. Don't see how this is being viewed as a negative.
- cletus 5y ago
  Tourists aren't a negative per se. Tourists staying in illegal hotels in areas and buildings not designed for such in a way that sometimes belies their total lack of having to deal with any of the consequences... that's something else. Rowdy parties, property damage (including common areas), harassment and nuisance, more serious violence and even cases of running a meth lab... that's something else.
- oblio 5y ago
  A rotating gallery of total strangers out to have fun every day (including party), with absolutely no care for repercussions since they're only temporarily there, I wonder what could go wrong for locals?! https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/greater-internet-fuckwad-theory https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/greater-internet-fuckwad-theo...
HWR_14 5y ago
Who wants tourists in their building? And, seriously, unless you are in the hospitality industry then why would you want them around at all? And if you are, you probably ant tourists that stay in hotels and eat in restaurants, not in a little apartment.

glglwty 5y ago

Externalities caused by Airbnb opposers: 1. Block people's access to tourism 2. Worsen the economy by artificially cuts demand from supply 3. Hurt tourism workers including restaurants workers, etc 4. Create segregation which is partially what nativism is about 5. Hurt people who live there and love talking to travellers If you don't want "other people" in your sight and zero nuisance, buy the entire street. Personal preference relying on inefficient resource allocation should be paid for.

pengaru 5y ago

> 4. Brings temporary residents into neighbourhoods that have no tie to that neighbourhood. You're completely missing the real problem with this. It's not just that short-term rentals bring in transients, keeping the housing unit available for short-term rentals displaces long-term residents who would have ties with the neighborhood, and in the best case of owner-occupied not just ties, but pride in ownership and a vested interest in maintaining both good relationships with the neighborhood and good working order of their property.

throwaway9980 5y ago
This is a really important point that you’ve called out. All of those Airbnbs in your neighborhood are preventing the formation of new communal relationships.
dumpsterdiver 5y ago
> You're completely missing the real problem with this. It's not just that short-term rentals bring in transients, keeping the housing unit available for short-term rentals displaces long-term residents who would have ties with the neighborhood, and in the best case of owner-occupied not just ties, but pride in ownership and a vested interest in maintaining both good relationships with the neighborhood and good working order of their property. Didn't they cover that with item #1: "1. Reduces housing supply"? I don't think they missed it.

visarga 5y ago

> 4. Brings temporary residents into neighbourhoods that have no tie to that neighbourhood. That's the most attractive thing about AirBnB for me, seeing real homes and not living off a hotel room.