9 ms·

Enough is enough

167 points by beermonster 5y ago

celticninja 5y ago
Translation: we are going to get away with it whether we spend money on PR or not, so we are going to save the money. Fuck You.
- the-dude 5y ago
  Your comment would be better without the last sentence. This is not Twitter.
  - COGlory 5y ago
    To be honest, that last sentence was my interpretation of the press release as well.
    - mt42or 5y ago
      Same, this is literally "fuck you all".
  - jjulius 5y ago
    To be honest, "Fuck you," is just a condensed version of NSO's first paragraph.
  - celticninja 5y ago
    The last sentence is part of the response to the public, not my opinion of the company.
- pfortuny 5y ago
  And also do not call during business hours, we are not going to pick up the phone…
- dredmorbius 5y ago
  Also, presumably, the firm feels it has the support of its own major interests in this course of action. NSO Group is ... rather well-connected. See for example https://theintercept.com/2016/10/17/how-israel-became-a-hub-for-surveillance-technology/ https://theintercept.com/2016/10/17/how-israel-became-a-hub-...
- hellotomyrars 5y ago
  Worked for Tesla. NSO groups clients aren’t going to care. If anything they’d probably prefer them saying nothing at all.
JohnWhigham 5y ago
This reads like literal satire, jesus christ...
jensensbutton 5y ago
Another interesting example of a company choosing to simply route around the media. Not making a value judgement, but I'm seeing more companies opt to simply disengage and try to create their own narratives rather than go through the media via interviews/statements/etc.
- css 5y ago
  I have always had a suspicion that this is the most expedient course of action from a company's perspective: the velocity of media is so fast nowadays that any controversy will be forgotten by the next week.
  - 0des 5y ago
    Judging by the panicked responses by the media, I'd say NSO is in a unique position, and the media just has to accept this. What we will likely see soon is a shift in focus from the company itself to individuals perceived to be motivators or shot-callers within the org being called out by the media in an attempt to garner the attention that NSO so steadfastly claims to be denying going forward. It's going to be interesting to see how this reversal of discourse carries out.
- igorzx31 5y ago
  It would be interesting if everybody just pulled an Elon and when Wapo asked for comment they would just say something like "Tell Jeff we say hi". It completely takes the moral high ground from the journalists.
- vmception 5y ago
  Myself and my companies have gotten around streisand effect before by just ignoring everyone and then doing takedown requests a few weeks later. Nobody saves stuff if you don't react. They only save copies when you are seen as trying to delete the copies.
  - Nullabillity 5y ago
    How do you sleep at night?
Barrin92 5y ago
>"NSO will thoroughly investigate any credible proof of misuse of its technologies, as we always had, and will shut down the system where necessary." From Wikipedia: "In October 2018 Citizen Lab reported on the use of NSO software to spy on the inner circle of Jamal Khashoggi just before his murder. Citizen Lab's October report[65] stated, with high confidence, that NSO's Pegasus had been placed on the iPhone of Saudi dissident Omar Abdulaziz, one of Khashoggi's confidantes, months before. Abdulaziz stated that the software revealed Khashoggi's "private criticisms of the Saudi royal family," which according to Abdulaziz "played a major role" in Khashoggi's death.[24] In December 2018, a New York Times investigation concluded that Pegasus software played a role in the Khashoggi's murder, with a friend of Khashoggi stating in a filing that Saudi authorities had used the Israeli-made software to spy on the dissident.[66] NSO CEO Shalev Hulio stated that the company had not been involved in the "terrible murder", but declined to comment on reports that he had personally traveled to the Saudi capital Riyadh for a $55 million Pegasus sale.[14] In June 2020, an investigation by Amnesty International alleged that Moroccan journalist Omar Radi was targeted by the Moroccan government using the Israeli spyware Pegasus. The rights group claimed that the journalist was targeted three times and spied on after his device was infected with an NSO tool. Meanwhile, Amnesty also claimed that the attack came after the NSO group updated their policy in September 2019.[67]" Well I'm reinsured by NSO group's statements and their totally existing moral compass lol.
- TechBro8615 5y ago
  We can safely assume that “moral products” and “things a Saudi prince would pay $55 million for” are independent sets.
- StreamBright 5y ago
  Corporations do not have any moral at all. It is always virtue signaling when they pretend they do have.
  - zpeti 5y ago
    While broadly I can agree with you, a corporation is still made up of people, and is lead by people. It’s perfectly possible for someone with a backbone to lead a corporation in a moral way.
igorzx31 5y ago
NSO Group is dead at this point. They fucked with the wrong people. Hacking human rights advocates is fine but when Presidents and PMs start getting their phones hacked I am sure they will implement legislation to outlaw this type of software.
- fighterpilot 5y ago
  What evidence is there that a PM has been hacked? Their number was on the list but haven't seen anything about Pegasus having been found on their devices.
- IncludeSecurity 5y ago
  I'd guess that those same presidents will call them up and buy. They'd rather be a customer than try and change a behemoth with political power like these guys.
- arkitaip 5y ago
  Attacking NSO would be like attacking the Israeli government and you don't do that because your PM's shitty OpSec was exposed.
  - igorzx31 5y ago
    Remember the Israelis also need allies.
    - Gibbon1 5y ago
      The Israeli's have two allies of note, the US and Saudi Arabia. Everyone else dislikes to hates them. The geopolitical clout of the US and Saudi Arabia are in decline.
      - igorzx31 5y ago
        Europe like them, kind of, many other gulf states, China, many african countries, I can go on and on
deleted 5y ago
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f38zf5vdt 5y ago
They may as well have put "<h1>Won't someone think of the children!?</h1>" instead.
intunderflow 5y ago
They know they're probably going to get away with it, and there's not much more that can be done to target them specifically. Their operations sound like that of a criminal group just dressed up with a nice logo and website, but as long as Israel doesn't care, it doesn't matter.
- mcguire 5y ago
  Pegasus is considered a munition; Israel has to approve its sale and export. Israel's attitude is a bit stronger than "doesn't care".
TOMDM 5y ago
>NSO will continue its mission of saving lives, helping governments around the world prevent terror attacks, break up pedophilia, sex, and drug-trafficking rings, locate missing and kidnapped children, locate survivors trapped under collapsed buildings, and protect airspace against disruptive penetration by dangerous drones. If NSO group truly cared about that mission statement, they'd be more than happy to continue engaging in the media where beneficial towards those ends while comdemning the rest. They'd want to engage wherever possible to shine light on situations where their tools are leaked or abused in order to get as much pressure put on those groups as possible.
- ignoramous 5y ago
  Yeah its like the US DoD: Sell weapons and wage wars to keep peace and spread democracy.
- a2800276 5y ago
  It sounds to me like you are pro-terrorism and hate children, ponies and other cute animals. NSO is a pure manifestation of peace, wholesomeness and everything that is good in the world including but not limited to your mother and apple pie. After all they only work with governments with strong human rights records like Morocco, Saudi Arabia, Russia, Afghanistan, China and the United States. Do you hate freedom?
- fmajid 5y ago
  I’m pretty sure at a minimum $25K per target, the software is only used for cases where a higher-up is heavily motivated, i.e. his own ass is on the line. Thus whistleblowers, journalists, political opposition and untrustworthy underlings. Possibly terrorists if they are thought likely to attempt an assassination on the said higher-up. Pedophiles? Don’t make me laugh.
spycraft 5y ago
Seems like NSO is saying "We don't operate our software directly, so stop asking us to be accountable for its use". Kind of like we accept that gun manufacturers have no liability if their guns are used in crimes. With these kinds of attacks becoming the new normal, security should be top of mind for everyone when buying a phone...
- indymike 5y ago
  > Kind of like we accept that gun manufacturers have no liability if their guns are used in crimes. Except the gun manufacturers are not aiming the gun for their customers.
stefan_ 5y ago
This was already disproved in the WhatsApp vs. NSO case: In its filing, Facebook alleged that NSO had rented a Los Angeles-based server from a U.S. company, QuadraNet, that it used to launch 720 hacks on people’s smartphones or other devices (see https://outline.com/WsUszd https://outline.com/WsUszd) That case is proceeding, because NSO has not been successful at all in claiming immunity or showing those are not it's servers. NSO rents the servers and they obviously run the C&C. They are not arms suppliers, they are mercenaries.
gurpreetsatwal 5y ago
How is > The list is not a list of targets or potential targets of Pegasus. The numbers in the list are not related to NSO group. consistent with > We do not operate the system, nor do we have access to the data of our customers, yet they are obligated to provide us with such information under investigations. Did they "investigate" every customer then?
andyjohnson0 5y ago
They state: "NSO is a technology company. We do not operate the system, nor do we have access to the data of our customers" Yet they also state: "The list is not a list of targets or potential targets of Pegasus." How do they know it is not a list of targets if they don't have access to their customer's lists of targets? None of this is trustworthy and neither are NSO.
- mikeyouse 5y ago
  In another article - they apparently asked their clients whether they people named in the news stories had been targeted, and then they took their clients' word for it. Just comical. "Hey MBS, did you use our product to target Khashoggi? No? Great, that's a load off."
- soheil 5y ago
  hmm.. "yet they are obligated to provide us with such information under investigations"
- cbsmith 5y ago
  You can't trust anyone, but... The Pegasus Project did change their statement from "thousands of numbers that were selected as targets by NSO’s Group clients" to "a list of phone numbers concentrated in countries known to surveil their citizens and also known to have been clients of NSO Group", and they specifically say: "The list does not identify who put the numbers on it, or why, and it is unknown how many of the phones were targeted or surveilled". It sounds like the "list" is from HLR lookups, which get done all the time without NSO being involved. If you think about it, none of NSO's clients would want NSO (or anyone else) to know who they are spying on in the first place, so it stands to reason that there'd not be a centralized list anywhere of targets for their software. I'm sure the list is real and all, but there's a distinct lack of clarity about how that list links to NSO and Pegasus specifically. Now the other bit that the Pegasus Project did was look at phones they suspected of being compromised. I think that's telling in the sense of, "journalists, activists and business people are being targeted". That seems pretty credible, but NSO doesn't seem to be denying that aspect of the story.
notafraudster 5y ago
Pretty embarrassing response, honestly. If you specifically work in an area that can be used for sensitive purposes, you have a moral responsibility as to who you choose to sell to and what you choose to enable them to do. Moreover, if you're going to engage in moral indignation -- we can't possibly be responsible for what our customers do!!! -- then you can't end with a paragraph about how you're a league of superheroes saving the world from all its evils. I completely believe Pegasus has the ability to help with a kidnapping case, but if they want an ounce of credit for it then they need to take responsibility for egregious abuses. You reap what you sow. Hope the victims of Pegasus sue these people into oblivion, especially Kashoggi's widows. And by the way, anyone who does public communications also has a moral obligation to consider whether their copy text engages in reputation laundering. The person who wrote this sounds stressed and demoralized, and that's a good thing. I hope this is the worst job they ever have in their life, and that they quit as soon as possible because of the misery they're going through.
- framecowbird 5y ago
  This is an excellent point. "We're responsible for the good applications, just not the bad ones"
  - dredmorbius 5y ago
    The modern commecial business corporation is ineherently a risk-externalising structure, which is specifically indicated in certain naming conventions, notably the "limited liability corporation". Legally it exists to sheild investors, as well as creditors and officers, from full personal liability. That has certain advantages, but as with all forms of impunity is subject to and the direct source of tremendous abuses. Capitalism is often touted as an "engine of wealth generation", but what is in fact measured in financial reports and national GDP accounts is not wealth but profit, revenues less costs, where both seek the advantage of ecnomic externalities (positive externalities for profits, negative externalities for costs) to maximise those profits. The foundations of economics of the firm (microeconomics) are found in cost-accounting, and cost-accounting itself was limited to the expenses and revenues that could be measured (theree's a version of Goodhart's Law buried in here somewhere). Alexander Hamilton Church is the father of modern cost-accounting and gives some interesting insights. (Yes, related to the othere A.H.) GDP is a measure of cash flows, rather than actual increase in national capital, wealth, or well-being. (With some adjustments.) Economic definitions of wealth differ, though Adam Smith's was "the annual labour and produce of the nation". In general, it is the notion of productive capability (labour, motive, or change power, effectively available energy) plus stored capital to use that energy, plus resources to act on, and sinks to exhaust to. (Industrial knowledge is a form of copital.) NSO Group's activities and rhetoric are par for the course.
kuyan 5y ago
NSO's responses seem to intentionally redirect from Amnesty's forensic work identifying Pegasus to the list per se: > The list is not a list of targets or potential targets of Pegasus. > The numbers in the list are not related to NSO group.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
throwawaymanbot 5y ago
Bahahahahahaha
spenvo 5y ago
Regarding the "list": Amnesty said 34 iPhones were forensically checked. 23 successfully had malware (specifically NSO's Pegasus) installed on them. The other 11 saw attempts at malware infection. [0] That's a 100% hit rate on their sampling of the "list". That makes this statement demonstrably false: "The numbers in the list are not related to NSO group." At this point, why would you even care to read the rest of this statement if it includes a bald-faced lie at the top? (You would have to disbelieve both Amnesty and Citizen Lab (who provided peer review) to see it as anything but a lie.) But, as others are saying, NSO contradicts itself with respect to what it says it does and does not know about who is attacked with Pegasus. Here's a good thread on that: https://twitter.com/zackwhittaker/status/1417127080672776192 https://twitter.com/zackwhittaker/status/1417127080672776192 This company's PR communications are so self-contradictory and deceitful that it's insulting. [0] -https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/07/19/apple-iphone-nso/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/07/19/apple-i...
- dredmorbius 5y ago
  Another possbility is that every mobile device has been targeted or compromised. (I'd like to see the infection rate for an alternate control-group listing of devices.)
- ignoramous 5y ago
  Upvotes are not endorsements. Usually, folks upvote because they think a post is noteworthy enough to warrant an extended discussion that the front-page affords.
kome 5y ago
this press release doesn't explain anything... NSO doesn't even try to attempt to explain what's going on. And the proofs against them are piling up. It's a brilliant strategy in a way: they just let the story be, and they will keep doing what they are doing. I guess their political connections with Israeli élite allows them this peace of mind.
tomrod 5y ago
In the court of public opinion and most sovereignties, this is analogous to yelling at a hurricane.
technicolorwhat 5y ago
Serious question: We talk always about companies like they are are organisms and not run by people making decisions. I see texts referring to group, company, people. Who's making the decisions and why don't we address them by name? Would this not make them more accountable if we did?
- dredmorbius 5y ago
  That ultimately becomes a metaphysical question about existence, though it also has elements of morality and pragmatism. Names and concepts are ultimately just shared mental interfaces for refering to and interacting with things in our environment. Everything above the atomic (in the original philosophical sense, here physically quark, Plank-length, and quantum-energy levels) is comprised of collections of other things, and the behaviours of certain sets of things organised in specific ways is distinctive enough that we apply different labels to them, even when the underlying components are the same. A tree is a collection of carbon, water, and trace elements, but is more than the sum of its parts. A chair or house (if made of wood) are made of tree but not tree. And so on. Describing things as behaviourally consistent concepts has been a useful mental model for me. The moral element comes into play where there's intentionality in organisation and a realisation of misdirection in general public understanding. Interests groups and lobbying organisations often present themselves as freestanding or general member organisations, but in truth are mostly representing the interests of their largest members (the MPAA, RIAA, and various software interest / piracy groups come to mind). These have an "ablative heat shield effect" in drawing fire away from the principle member firms themselves. (This is played out across many, many such instances, not just the three I've given.) The modern business corporation is in fact specifically a risk-externalising engine, and both it and its executive leadership play that role in at least part. I'd just addressed that in an earlier comment on this thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27910464 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27910464
tedivm 5y ago
"But our customers have to tell us who they target! It's in the signed contract! And I'm sure the people who lured a journalist into an embassy and murdered him are totally honorable people who would always disclose this to us!" This isn't even subtle. Their logic is so flawed that they should be embarrassed to hide behind it.
theknocker 5y ago
>NSO will continue its mission of saving lives, helping governments around the world prevent terror attacks, break up pedophilia, sex, and drug-trafficking rings, locate missing and kidnapped children, locate survivors trapped under collapsed buildings, and protect airspace against disruptive penetration by dangerous drones. Intelligence groups should have to fucking prove this.
mrtweetyhack 5y ago
I don't care. US spies, corporations spy, China spies, Russia spies, pretty much everybody spies if they can. Why single out this group?
anm89 5y ago
Everyone here is saying "NSO bad", which I agree with, but it misses the point. You and I are not target customers for NSO. They don't care if we think they are bad. There answer is literally just saying "we are going to claim we aren't legally liable and we aren't answering questions". This is probably sufficient to the people it needs to be sufficient to. If anything, all of this is probably great marketing for them.
deleted 5y ago
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gagan2020 5y ago
In India, NSO's Pegasus allegedly used for toppling two state Governments by Central Government plus used for various Political gains be it opposition politicians, election commissioner, Judges, Journalists, Activists etc. And, NSO response is "Enough is Enough". This is not enough, this is just starting.
motohagiography 5y ago
What is unique to NSO and a small sample of companies like them is that they are the ones who get caught.
dang 5y ago
Here are the significant threads to date. Additions are welcome. Pavel Durov listed in leaked Pegasus project data - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27906667 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27906667 - July 2021 (12 comments so far) Pegasus Project found numbers of Ten PMs, three presidents and a king - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27904236 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27904236 - July 2021 (17 comments) NSO Group Hacked - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27902544 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27902544 - July 2021 (78 comments) Emmanuel Macron identified in leaked Pegasus project data - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27899133 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27899133 - July 2021 (58 comments) Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27890735 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27890735 - July 2021 (501 comments) Edward Snowden calls for spyware trade ban amid Pegasus revelations - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27886209 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27886209 - July 2021 (80 comments) iMessage, Apple Music used by NSO Pegasus to attack journalist iPhones - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27882992 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27882992 - July 2021 (164 comments) Key Modi rival Rahul Gandhi among potential Indian targets of NSO client - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27882877 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27882877 - July 2021 (137 comments) Amazon Shuts Down NSO Group Infrastructure - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27882619 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27882619 - July 2021 (240 comments) Private Israeli malware 'Pegasus' used to spy on journalists, activists - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27880409 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27880409 - July 2021 (7 comments) iOS 14.6 device hacked with a zero-click iMessage exploit to install Pegasus - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27875976 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27875976 - July 2021 (162 comments) How NSO's Pegasus Is Used to Spy on Journalists - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27874173 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27874173 - July 2021 (24 comments) Private Israeli spyware used to hack cellphones of journalists, activists - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27874100 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27874100 - July 2021 (167 comments) Leak uncovers global abuse of cyber-surveillance weapon - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27874027 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27874027 - July 2021 (136 comments) Digital Violence: How the NSO Group Enables State Terror - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27727733 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27727733 - July 2021 (37 comments)
- 5y ago
lisper 5y ago
The statement is internally contradictory: "[W]e [do not] have access to the data of our customers, yet they are obligated to provide us with such information under investigations." If your customers "are obligated to" provide you with the information, and they meet that obligation, then you have access to the data, because manifestly your customers have given it to you. This makes it hard for me to see this as anything other than an attempt to obscure the truth (and not a particularly skillful one). There's also this: "Any claim that a name in the list is necessarily related to a Pegasus target or Pegasus potential target is erroneous and false." [Emphasis added.] This is obviously intended to look like a denial, but it isn't. It could well be that all of the names on the list are targets in point of actual fact even if they are not necessarily targets.
_Nat_ 5y ago
That's one site I'm iffy on enabling JavaScript for.. is there an alternative host for the release?
- dredmorbius 5y ago
  NSO Group Enough Is Enough In light of the recent planned and well-orchestrated media campaign lead by Forbidden Stories and pushed by special interest groups, and due to the complete disregard of the facts, NSO is announcing it will no longer be responding to media inquiries on this matter and it will not play along with the vicious and slanderous campaign. We will state again: The list is not a list of targets or potential targets of Pegasus. The numbers in the list are not related to NSO group. Any claim that a name in the list is necessarily related to a Pegasus target or Pegasus potential target is erroneous and false. NSO is a technology company. We do not operate the system, nor do we have access to the data of our customers, yet they are obligated to provide us with such information under investigations. NSO will thoroughly investigate any credible proof of misuse of its technologies, as we always had, and will shut down the system where necessary. NSO will continue its mission of saving lives, helping governments around the world prevent terror attacks, break up pedophilia, sex, and drug-trafficking rings, locate missing and kidnapped children, locate survivors trapped under collapsed buildings, and protect airspace against disruptive penetration by dangerous drones.
pfortuny 5y ago
They have a page on “Human Rights Policy” https://www.nsogroup.com/governance/human-rights-policy/ https://www.nsogroup.com/governance/human-rights-policy/ Unbelievable: first tech company I see that has this… Creepy as hell. If they state all those things, it makes me think they do not act accordingly.
bogomipz 5y ago
This reads like both an intentional trolling and a "How Not to Do PR 101" guide. It's almost as if they've taken a page from the PR playbook of the type of morally bankrupt and corrupt governments they count as customers. Their official response from a few of days ago was equally laughable: [1] https://www.theguardian.com/news/2021/jul/18/response-from-nso-and-governments https://www.theguardian.com/news/2021/jul/18/response-from-n...
bronzeage 5y ago
Honestly, most of the outrage would be prevented if they just limited each government to just attacking their own civilians. Who would outlaw them then, those same governments? Their real blunder is allowing cross-country hacking, and now they have to answer for the fact the morocan government abused their tool against Macron. As for countries with no human rights abusing their citizens, any outraged American should start right at home with how their own government deals with peaceful protesters of 1/6. Human rights are practically an illusion, and governments abusing citizens is nothing new, NSO is literally a drop in the ocean, the only real difference between countries are whether the press is free enough to even report what's happening. (Hint to Americans: your is not free, either).
zionic 5y ago
These people and their employees need to be on terrorist watch lists, their assets and passports frozen, domains seized etc. It is an absolute joke that the “Justice” department allows these organizations to operate freely and uncontested.
- mcguire 5y ago
  The company is not under US jurisdiction. The lawsuit against it (Facebook/WhatsApp v. NSO) is ongoing.
marto1 5y ago
> break up pedophilia, sex, and drug-trafficking rings, locate missing > and kidnapped children, locate survivors trapped under collapsed > buildings, and protect airspace against disruptive penetration by > dangerous drones. Well, that's an interesting market niche if I've ever seen one.
readonthegoapp 5y ago
They been helping terrorists kill activists for years. I appreciate the faux outrage tho.
abecedarius 5y ago
Is there an explanation why hacking-as-a-service is not illegal under https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_Fraud_and_Abuse_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_Fraud_and_Abuse_Act? The page goes on at such length I admit I barely skimmed it, beyond checking that yes cell phones are deemed computers.
- mcguire 5y ago
  It's not in US jurisdiction?
  - hollerith 5y ago
    It's not in US jurisdiction, and its not one of the things Washington feels so strongly about that it tries to suppress it in other jurisdictions?
bambax 5y ago
> NSO will continue its mission of saving lives Sounds exactly like Lt. Col. Jessep from A Few Good Men. The film teaches to never trust that line or those who utter it.
cycomanic 5y ago
I really hope that people who are in hiring positions here will make sure to never hire someone involved with this company. Last time I said this, people said that's like accusing relatives for the actions of a e.g. a cousin. No, the people working there chose to work there and chose to disregard any morals for their paycheck. I hope the people working at this place will never find another job in this space, once NSO (hopefully) goes under. However, unfortunately this is unlikely because there is enough other companies doing essentially the same thing, who'd likely take those people on happily.
dredmorbius 5y ago
Harold Lasswell has an interesting model of communications: - Who? - Says What? - In Which Channel? - To Whom? - With What Effect? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lasswell%27s_model_of_communication https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lasswell%27s_model_of_communic... Lasswell, Harold (1948). Bryson, L. (ed.). The Structure and Function of Communication in Society. The Communication of Ideas. New York: Institute for Religious and Social Studies. p. 117. All communication is performative art. The performances and audiences differ. Often for the same work. Communications such as these have two principle audiences: - The general public - The interests for which the speaker is operating. The message to the public is pretty clearly "fuck you". The message to organisations which may have used such services, and who may or may not have a history of acting with lethal force to protect their interests, is "we deny everything, we are the shield between you and the world, and we will not be talking further, and we can say this as bluntly as possible because we have major institutional, interest, and/or state backing." That's not an uncommon message. It's generally not phrased quite so bluntly. That it is here may in fact be part of the signaling. (All clearly conjecture, though it coheres.)
_eqet 5y ago
If you discover a 0-day, as as software developer, you have the moral responsibility to report it to the manufacturer, not to sell it and make money off of it. Their argument of "we're trying to stop terrorists, pedophiles etc" is the same argument as all the government organizations that are cracking down on encryption, and how bad guys can benefit from it. NSO knows that they've fuked up, and the tone of the article clearly indicates that. They just want to plead ignorance. Hopefully they get sued and bankrupt their butts, but again they're just going to rebrand and start doing the same thing over again
urda 5y ago
Yeah I'm not buying it, and I don't think anyone else worth their weight is either.

167 points by beermonster 5y ago

Translation: we are going to get away with it whether we spend money on PR or not, so we are going to save the money. Fuck You.

the-dude 5y ago
Your comment would be better without the last sentence. This is not Twitter.
- COGlory 5y ago
  To be honest, that last sentence was my interpretation of the press release as well.
  - mt42or 5y ago
    Same, this is literally "fuck you all".
- jjulius 5y ago
  To be honest, "Fuck you," is just a condensed version of NSO's first paragraph.
- celticninja 5y ago
  The last sentence is part of the response to the public, not my opinion of the company.
pfortuny 5y ago
And also do not call during business hours, we are not going to pick up the phone…
dredmorbius 5y ago
Also, presumably, the firm feels it has the support of its own major interests in this course of action. NSO Group is ... rather well-connected. See for example https://theintercept.com/2016/10/17/how-israel-became-a-hub-for-surveillance-technology/ https://theintercept.com/2016/10/17/how-israel-became-a-hub-...
hellotomyrars 5y ago
Worked for Tesla. NSO groups clients aren’t going to care. If anything they’d probably prefer them saying nothing at all.

JohnWhigham 5y ago

This reads like literal satire, jesus christ...

jensensbutton 5y ago

Another interesting example of a company choosing to simply route around the media. Not making a value judgement, but I'm seeing more companies opt to simply disengage and try to create their own narratives rather than go through the media via interviews/statements/etc.

css 5y ago
I have always had a suspicion that this is the most expedient course of action from a company's perspective: the velocity of media is so fast nowadays that any controversy will be forgotten by the next week.
- 0des 5y ago
  Judging by the panicked responses by the media, I'd say NSO is in a unique position, and the media just has to accept this. What we will likely see soon is a shift in focus from the company itself to individuals perceived to be motivators or shot-callers within the org being called out by the media in an attempt to garner the attention that NSO so steadfastly claims to be denying going forward. It's going to be interesting to see how this reversal of discourse carries out.
igorzx31 5y ago
It would be interesting if everybody just pulled an Elon and when Wapo asked for comment they would just say something like "Tell Jeff we say hi". It completely takes the moral high ground from the journalists.
vmception 5y ago
Myself and my companies have gotten around streisand effect before by just ignoring everyone and then doing takedown requests a few weeks later. Nobody saves stuff if you don't react. They only save copies when you are seen as trying to delete the copies.
- Nullabillity 5y ago
  How do you sleep at night?

Barrin92 5y ago

>"NSO will thoroughly investigate any credible proof of misuse of its technologies, as we always had, and will shut down the system where necessary." From Wikipedia: "In October 2018 Citizen Lab reported on the use of NSO software to spy on the inner circle of Jamal Khashoggi just before his murder. Citizen Lab's October report[65] stated, with high confidence, that NSO's Pegasus had been placed on the iPhone of Saudi dissident Omar Abdulaziz, one of Khashoggi's confidantes, months before. Abdulaziz stated that the software revealed Khashoggi's "private criticisms of the Saudi royal family," which according to Abdulaziz "played a major role" in Khashoggi's death.[24] In December 2018, a New York Times investigation concluded that Pegasus software played a role in the Khashoggi's murder, with a friend of Khashoggi stating in a filing that Saudi authorities had used the Israeli-made software to spy on the dissident.[66] NSO CEO Shalev Hulio stated that the company had not been involved in the "terrible murder", but declined to comment on reports that he had personally traveled to the Saudi capital Riyadh for a $55 million Pegasus sale.[14] In June 2020, an investigation by Amnesty International alleged that Moroccan journalist Omar Radi was targeted by the Moroccan government using the Israeli spyware Pegasus. The rights group claimed that the journalist was targeted three times and spied on after his device was infected with an NSO tool. Meanwhile, Amnesty also claimed that the attack came after the NSO group updated their policy in September 2019.[67]" Well I'm reinsured by NSO group's statements and their totally existing moral compass lol.

TechBro8615 5y ago
We can safely assume that “moral products” and “things a Saudi prince would pay $55 million for” are independent sets.
StreamBright 5y ago
Corporations do not have any moral at all. It is always virtue signaling when they pretend they do have.
- zpeti 5y ago
  While broadly I can agree with you, a corporation is still made up of people, and is lead by people. It’s perfectly possible for someone with a backbone to lead a corporation in a moral way.

igorzx31 5y ago

NSO Group is dead at this point. They fucked with the wrong people. Hacking human rights advocates is fine but when Presidents and PMs start getting their phones hacked I am sure they will implement legislation to outlaw this type of software.

fighterpilot 5y ago
What evidence is there that a PM has been hacked? Their number was on the list but haven't seen anything about Pegasus having been found on their devices.
IncludeSecurity 5y ago
I'd guess that those same presidents will call them up and buy. They'd rather be a customer than try and change a behemoth with political power like these guys.
arkitaip 5y ago
Attacking NSO would be like attacking the Israeli government and you don't do that because your PM's shitty OpSec was exposed.
- igorzx31 5y ago
  Remember the Israelis also need allies.
  - Gibbon1 5y ago
    The Israeli's have two allies of note, the US and Saudi Arabia. Everyone else dislikes to hates them. The geopolitical clout of the US and Saudi Arabia are in decline.
    - igorzx31 5y ago
      Europe like them, kind of, many other gulf states, China, many african countries, I can go on and on

deleted 5y ago

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f38zf5vdt 5y ago

They may as well have put "<h1>Won't someone think of the children!?</h1>" instead.

intunderflow 5y ago

They know they're probably going to get away with it, and there's not much more that can be done to target them specifically. Their operations sound like that of a criminal group just dressed up with a nice logo and website, but as long as Israel doesn't care, it doesn't matter.

mcguire 5y ago
Pegasus is considered a munition; Israel has to approve its sale and export. Israel's attitude is a bit stronger than "doesn't care".

TOMDM 5y ago

>NSO will continue its mission of saving lives, helping governments around the world prevent terror attacks, break up pedophilia, sex, and drug-trafficking rings, locate missing and kidnapped children, locate survivors trapped under collapsed buildings, and protect airspace against disruptive penetration by dangerous drones. If NSO group truly cared about that mission statement, they'd be more than happy to continue engaging in the media where beneficial towards those ends while comdemning the rest. They'd want to engage wherever possible to shine light on situations where their tools are leaked or abused in order to get as much pressure put on those groups as possible.

ignoramous 5y ago
Yeah its like the US DoD: Sell weapons and wage wars to keep peace and spread democracy.
a2800276 5y ago
It sounds to me like you are pro-terrorism and hate children, ponies and other cute animals. NSO is a pure manifestation of peace, wholesomeness and everything that is good in the world including but not limited to your mother and apple pie. After all they only work with governments with strong human rights records like Morocco, Saudi Arabia, Russia, Afghanistan, China and the United States. Do you hate freedom?
fmajid 5y ago
I’m pretty sure at a minimum $25K per target, the software is only used for cases where a higher-up is heavily motivated, i.e. his own ass is on the line. Thus whistleblowers, journalists, political opposition and untrustworthy underlings. Possibly terrorists if they are thought likely to attempt an assassination on the said higher-up. Pedophiles? Don’t make me laugh.

spycraft 5y ago

Seems like NSO is saying "We don't operate our software directly, so stop asking us to be accountable for its use". Kind of like we accept that gun manufacturers have no liability if their guns are used in crimes. With these kinds of attacks becoming the new normal, security should be top of mind for everyone when buying a phone...

indymike 5y ago
> Kind of like we accept that gun manufacturers have no liability if their guns are used in crimes. Except the gun manufacturers are not aiming the gun for their customers.

stefan_ 5y ago

This was already disproved in the WhatsApp vs. NSO case: In its filing, Facebook alleged that NSO had rented a Los Angeles-based server from a U.S. company, QuadraNet, that it used to launch 720 hacks on people’s smartphones or other devices (see https://outline.com/WsUszd https://outline.com/WsUszd) That case is proceeding, because NSO has not been successful at all in claiming immunity or showing those are not it's servers. NSO rents the servers and they obviously run the C&C. They are not arms suppliers, they are mercenaries.

gurpreetsatwal 5y ago

How is > The list is not a list of targets or potential targets of Pegasus. The numbers in the list are not related to NSO group. consistent with > We do not operate the system, nor do we have access to the data of our customers, yet they are obligated to provide us with such information under investigations. Did they "investigate" every customer then?

andyjohnson0 5y ago

They state: "NSO is a technology company. We do not operate the system, nor do we have access to the data of our customers" Yet they also state: "The list is not a list of targets or potential targets of Pegasus." How do they know it is not a list of targets if they don't have access to their customer's lists of targets? None of this is trustworthy and neither are NSO.

mikeyouse 5y ago
In another article - they apparently asked their clients whether they people named in the news stories had been targeted, and then they took their clients' word for it. Just comical. "Hey MBS, did you use our product to target Khashoggi? No? Great, that's a load off."
soheil 5y ago
hmm.. "yet they are obligated to provide us with such information under investigations"
cbsmith 5y ago
You can't trust anyone, but... The Pegasus Project did change their statement from "thousands of numbers that were selected as targets by NSO’s Group clients" to "a list of phone numbers concentrated in countries known to surveil their citizens and also known to have been clients of NSO Group", and they specifically say: "The list does not identify who put the numbers on it, or why, and it is unknown how many of the phones were targeted or surveilled". It sounds like the "list" is from HLR lookups, which get done all the time without NSO being involved. If you think about it, none of NSO's clients would want NSO (or anyone else) to know who they are spying on in the first place, so it stands to reason that there'd not be a centralized list anywhere of targets for their software. I'm sure the list is real and all, but there's a distinct lack of clarity about how that list links to NSO and Pegasus specifically. Now the other bit that the Pegasus Project did was look at phones they suspected of being compromised. I think that's telling in the sense of, "journalists, activists and business people are being targeted". That seems pretty credible, but NSO doesn't seem to be denying that aspect of the story.

notafraudster 5y ago

Pretty embarrassing response, honestly. If you specifically work in an area that can be used for sensitive purposes, you have a moral responsibility as to who you choose to sell to and what you choose to enable them to do. Moreover, if you're going to engage in moral indignation -- we can't possibly be responsible for what our customers do!!! -- then you can't end with a paragraph about how you're a league of superheroes saving the world from all its evils. I completely believe Pegasus has the ability to help with a kidnapping case, but if they want an ounce of credit for it then they need to take responsibility for egregious abuses. You reap what you sow. Hope the victims of Pegasus sue these people into oblivion, especially Kashoggi's widows. And by the way, anyone who does public communications also has a moral obligation to consider whether their copy text engages in reputation laundering. The person who wrote this sounds stressed and demoralized, and that's a good thing. I hope this is the worst job they ever have in their life, and that they quit as soon as possible because of the misery they're going through.

framecowbird 5y ago
This is an excellent point. "We're responsible for the good applications, just not the bad ones"
- dredmorbius 5y ago
  The modern commecial business corporation is ineherently a risk-externalising structure, which is specifically indicated in certain naming conventions, notably the "limited liability corporation". Legally it exists to sheild investors, as well as creditors and officers, from full personal liability. That has certain advantages, but as with all forms of impunity is subject to and the direct source of tremendous abuses. Capitalism is often touted as an "engine of wealth generation", but what is in fact measured in financial reports and national GDP accounts is not wealth but profit, revenues less costs, where both seek the advantage of ecnomic externalities (positive externalities for profits, negative externalities for costs) to maximise those profits. The foundations of economics of the firm (microeconomics) are found in cost-accounting, and cost-accounting itself was limited to the expenses and revenues that could be measured (theree's a version of Goodhart's Law buried in here somewhere). Alexander Hamilton Church is the father of modern cost-accounting and gives some interesting insights. (Yes, related to the othere A.H.) GDP is a measure of cash flows, rather than actual increase in national capital, wealth, or well-being. (With some adjustments.) Economic definitions of wealth differ, though Adam Smith's was "the annual labour and produce of the nation". In general, it is the notion of productive capability (labour, motive, or change power, effectively available energy) plus stored capital to use that energy, plus resources to act on, and sinks to exhaust to. (Industrial knowledge is a form of copital.) NSO Group's activities and rhetoric are par for the course.

kuyan 5y ago

NSO's responses seem to intentionally redirect from Amnesty's forensic work identifying Pegasus to the list per se: > The list is not a list of targets or potential targets of Pegasus. > The numbers in the list are not related to NSO group.

deleted 5y ago

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throwawaymanbot 5y ago

Bahahahahahaha

spenvo 5y ago

Regarding the "list": Amnesty said 34 iPhones were forensically checked. 23 successfully had malware (specifically NSO's Pegasus) installed on them. The other 11 saw attempts at malware infection. [0] That's a 100% hit rate on their sampling of the "list". That makes this statement demonstrably false: "The numbers in the list are not related to NSO group." At this point, why would you even care to read the rest of this statement if it includes a bald-faced lie at the top? (You would have to disbelieve both Amnesty and Citizen Lab (who provided peer review) to see it as anything but a lie.) But, as others are saying, NSO contradicts itself with respect to what it says it does and does not know about who is attacked with Pegasus. Here's a good thread on that: https://twitter.com/zackwhittaker/status/1417127080672776192 https://twitter.com/zackwhittaker/status/1417127080672776192 This company's PR communications are so self-contradictory and deceitful that it's insulting. [0] -https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/07/19/apple-iphone-nso/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/07/19/apple-i...

dredmorbius 5y ago
Another possbility is that every mobile device has been targeted or compromised. (I'd like to see the infection rate for an alternate control-group listing of devices.)
ignoramous 5y ago
Upvotes are not endorsements. Usually, folks upvote because they think a post is noteworthy enough to warrant an extended discussion that the front-page affords.

kome 5y ago

this press release doesn't explain anything... NSO doesn't even try to attempt to explain what's going on. And the proofs against them are piling up. It's a brilliant strategy in a way: they just let the story be, and they will keep doing what they are doing. I guess their political connections with Israeli élite allows them this peace of mind.

tomrod 5y ago

In the court of public opinion and most sovereignties, this is analogous to yelling at a hurricane.

technicolorwhat 5y ago

Serious question: We talk always about companies like they are are organisms and not run by people making decisions. I see texts referring to group, company, people. Who's making the decisions and why don't we address them by name? Would this not make them more accountable if we did?

dredmorbius 5y ago
That ultimately becomes a metaphysical question about existence, though it also has elements of morality and pragmatism. Names and concepts are ultimately just shared mental interfaces for refering to and interacting with things in our environment. Everything above the atomic (in the original philosophical sense, here physically quark, Plank-length, and quantum-energy levels) is comprised of collections of other things, and the behaviours of certain sets of things organised in specific ways is distinctive enough that we apply different labels to them, even when the underlying components are the same. A tree is a collection of carbon, water, and trace elements, but is more than the sum of its parts. A chair or house (if made of wood) are made of tree but not tree. And so on. Describing things as behaviourally consistent concepts has been a useful mental model for me. The moral element comes into play where there's intentionality in organisation and a realisation of misdirection in general public understanding. Interests groups and lobbying organisations often present themselves as freestanding or general member organisations, but in truth are mostly representing the interests of their largest members (the MPAA, RIAA, and various software interest / piracy groups come to mind). These have an "ablative heat shield effect" in drawing fire away from the principle member firms themselves. (This is played out across many, many such instances, not just the three I've given.) The modern business corporation is in fact specifically a risk-externalising engine, and both it and its executive leadership play that role in at least part. I'd just addressed that in an earlier comment on this thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27910464 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27910464

tedivm 5y ago

"But our customers have to tell us who they target! It's in the signed contract! And I'm sure the people who lured a journalist into an embassy and murdered him are totally honorable people who would always disclose this to us!" This isn't even subtle. Their logic is so flawed that they should be embarrassed to hide behind it.

theknocker 5y ago

mrtweetyhack 5y ago

I don't care. US spies, corporations spy, China spies, Russia spies, pretty much everybody spies if they can. Why single out this group?

anm89 5y ago

Everyone here is saying "NSO bad", which I agree with, but it misses the point. You and I are not target customers for NSO. They don't care if we think they are bad. There answer is literally just saying "we are going to claim we aren't legally liable and we aren't answering questions". This is probably sufficient to the people it needs to be sufficient to. If anything, all of this is probably great marketing for them.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

gagan2020 5y ago

In India, NSO's Pegasus allegedly used for toppling two state Governments by Central Government plus used for various Political gains be it opposition politicians, election commissioner, Judges, Journalists, Activists etc. And, NSO response is "Enough is Enough". This is not enough, this is just starting.

motohagiography 5y ago

What is unique to NSO and a small sample of companies like them is that they are the ones who get caught.

dang 5y ago

Here are the significant threads to date. Additions are welcome. Pavel Durov listed in leaked Pegasus project data - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27906667 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27906667 - July 2021 (12 comments so far) Pegasus Project found numbers of Ten PMs, three presidents and a king - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27904236 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27904236 - July 2021 (17 comments) NSO Group Hacked - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27902544 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27902544 - July 2021 (78 comments) Emmanuel Macron identified in leaked Pegasus project data - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27899133 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27899133 - July 2021 (58 comments) Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27890735 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27890735 - July 2021 (501 comments) Edward Snowden calls for spyware trade ban amid Pegasus revelations - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27886209 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27886209 - July 2021 (80 comments) iMessage, Apple Music used by NSO Pegasus to attack journalist iPhones - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27882992 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27882992 - July 2021 (164 comments) Key Modi rival Rahul Gandhi among potential Indian targets of NSO client - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27882877 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27882877 - July 2021 (137 comments) Amazon Shuts Down NSO Group Infrastructure - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27882619 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27882619 - July 2021 (240 comments) Private Israeli malware 'Pegasus' used to spy on journalists, activists - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27880409 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27880409 - July 2021 (7 comments) iOS 14.6 device hacked with a zero-click iMessage exploit to install Pegasus - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27875976 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27875976 - July 2021 (162 comments) How NSO's Pegasus Is Used to Spy on Journalists - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27874173 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27874173 - July 2021 (24 comments) Private Israeli spyware used to hack cellphones of journalists, activists - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27874100 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27874100 - July 2021 (167 comments) Leak uncovers global abuse of cyber-surveillance weapon - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27874027 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27874027 - July 2021 (136 comments) Digital Violence: How the NSO Group Enables State Terror - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27727733 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27727733 - July 2021 (37 comments)

5y ago

lisper 5y ago

The statement is internally contradictory: "[W]e [do not] have access to the data of our customers, yet they are obligated to provide us with such information under investigations." If your customers "are obligated to" provide you with the information, and they meet that obligation, then you have access to the data, because manifestly your customers have given it to you. This makes it hard for me to see this as anything other than an attempt to obscure the truth (and not a particularly skillful one). There's also this: "Any claim that a name in the list is necessarily related to a Pegasus target or Pegasus potential target is erroneous and false." [Emphasis added.] This is obviously intended to look like a denial, but it isn't. It could well be that all of the names on the list are targets in point of actual fact even if they are not necessarily targets.

_Nat_ 5y ago

That's one site I'm iffy on enabling JavaScript for.. is there an alternative host for the release?

dredmorbius 5y ago
NSO Group Enough Is Enough In light of the recent planned and well-orchestrated media campaign lead by Forbidden Stories and pushed by special interest groups, and due to the complete disregard of the facts, NSO is announcing it will no longer be responding to media inquiries on this matter and it will not play along with the vicious and slanderous campaign. We will state again: The list is not a list of targets or potential targets of Pegasus. The numbers in the list are not related to NSO group. Any claim that a name in the list is necessarily related to a Pegasus target or Pegasus potential target is erroneous and false. NSO is a technology company. We do not operate the system, nor do we have access to the data of our customers, yet they are obligated to provide us with such information under investigations. NSO will thoroughly investigate any credible proof of misuse of its technologies, as we always had, and will shut down the system where necessary. NSO will continue its mission of saving lives, helping governments around the world prevent terror attacks, break up pedophilia, sex, and drug-trafficking rings, locate missing and kidnapped children, locate survivors trapped under collapsed buildings, and protect airspace against disruptive penetration by dangerous drones.

pfortuny 5y ago

They have a page on “Human Rights Policy” https://www.nsogroup.com/governance/human-rights-policy/ https://www.nsogroup.com/governance/human-rights-policy/ Unbelievable: first tech company I see that has this… Creepy as hell. If they state all those things, it makes me think they do not act accordingly.

bogomipz 5y ago

This reads like both an intentional trolling and a "How Not to Do PR 101" guide. It's almost as if they've taken a page from the PR playbook of the type of morally bankrupt and corrupt governments they count as customers. Their official response from a few of days ago was equally laughable: [1] https://www.theguardian.com/news/2021/jul/18/response-from-nso-and-governments https://www.theguardian.com/news/2021/jul/18/response-from-n...

bronzeage 5y ago

Honestly, most of the outrage would be prevented if they just limited each government to just attacking their own civilians. Who would outlaw them then, those same governments? Their real blunder is allowing cross-country hacking, and now they have to answer for the fact the morocan government abused their tool against Macron. As for countries with no human rights abusing their citizens, any outraged American should start right at home with how their own government deals with peaceful protesters of 1/6. Human rights are practically an illusion, and governments abusing citizens is nothing new, NSO is literally a drop in the ocean, the only real difference between countries are whether the press is free enough to even report what's happening. (Hint to Americans: your is not free, either).

zionic 5y ago

These people and their employees need to be on terrorist watch lists, their assets and passports frozen, domains seized etc. It is an absolute joke that the “Justice” department allows these organizations to operate freely and uncontested.

mcguire 5y ago
The company is not under US jurisdiction. The lawsuit against it (Facebook/WhatsApp v. NSO) is ongoing.

marto1 5y ago

> break up pedophilia, sex, and drug-trafficking rings, locate missing > and kidnapped children, locate survivors trapped under collapsed > buildings, and protect airspace against disruptive penetration by > dangerous drones. Well, that's an interesting market niche if I've ever seen one.

readonthegoapp 5y ago

They been helping terrorists kill activists for years. I appreciate the faux outrage tho.

abecedarius 5y ago

Is there an explanation why hacking-as-a-service is not illegal under https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_Fraud_and_Abuse_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_Fraud_and_Abuse_Act? The page goes on at such length I admit I barely skimmed it, beyond checking that yes cell phones are deemed computers.

mcguire 5y ago
It's not in US jurisdiction?
- hollerith 5y ago
  It's not in US jurisdiction, and its not one of the things Washington feels so strongly about that it tries to suppress it in other jurisdictions?

bambax 5y ago

> NSO will continue its mission of saving lives Sounds exactly like Lt. Col. Jessep from A Few Good Men. The film teaches to never trust that line or those who utter it.

cycomanic 5y ago

I really hope that people who are in hiring positions here will make sure to never hire someone involved with this company. Last time I said this, people said that's like accusing relatives for the actions of a e.g. a cousin. No, the people working there chose to work there and chose to disregard any morals for their paycheck. I hope the people working at this place will never find another job in this space, once NSO (hopefully) goes under. However, unfortunately this is unlikely because there is enough other companies doing essentially the same thing, who'd likely take those people on happily.

dredmorbius 5y ago

Harold Lasswell has an interesting model of communications: - Who? - Says What? - In Which Channel? - To Whom? - With What Effect? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lasswell%27s_model_of_communication https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lasswell%27s_model_of_communic... Lasswell, Harold (1948). Bryson, L. (ed.). The Structure and Function of Communication in Society. The Communication of Ideas. New York: Institute for Religious and Social Studies. p. 117. All communication is performative art. The performances and audiences differ. Often for the same work. Communications such as these have two principle audiences: - The general public - The interests for which the speaker is operating. The message to the public is pretty clearly "fuck you". The message to organisations which may have used such services, and who may or may not have a history of acting with lethal force to protect their interests, is "we deny everything, we are the shield between you and the world, and we will not be talking further, and we can say this as bluntly as possible because we have major institutional, interest, and/or state backing." That's not an uncommon message. It's generally not phrased quite so bluntly. That it is here may in fact be part of the signaling. (All clearly conjecture, though it coheres.)

_eqet 5y ago

If you discover a 0-day, as as software developer, you have the moral responsibility to report it to the manufacturer, not to sell it and make money off of it. Their argument of "we're trying to stop terrorists, pedophiles etc" is the same argument as all the government organizations that are cracking down on encryption, and how bad guys can benefit from it. NSO knows that they've fuked up, and the tone of the article clearly indicates that. They just want to plead ignorance. Hopefully they get sued and bankrupt their butts, but again they're just going to rebrand and start doing the same thing over again

urda 5y ago

Yeah I'm not buying it, and I don't think anyone else worth their weight is either.