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Caffeine and theanine exert opposite effects on attention (2017)
- chalst 5y agoCouldn't fit title and date into 80 chars, so the story title is edited: Caffeine and theanine exert opposite effects on attention under emotional arousal, Grace E Giles et al., Canadian Journal of Physiological Pharmacology, January 2017.
- 0xTJ 5y agoI'd call the current title of this post blatantly wrong. In common use, "emotional arousal" and "arousal" have very different meanings.
- nkozyra 5y agoAgreed; in fact, it makes two points that have different impact: > Consumed together, caffeine and theanine exert similar cognitive effects to that of caffeine alone, but exert opposite effects on arousal, in that caffeine accentuates and theanine mitigates physiological and felt stress responses. This is inline with the anecdotal evidence about theanine's mitigating effect on caffeine & stress.
- benogorek 5y agoSo is it fair to say that with tea relative to coffee, you get all the cognitive benefits and none of the arousal downsides (e.g, anxiety)?
- whoisburbansky 5y agoIn my experience it’s been that tea gives me far less anxiety, but still a nonzero amount. It doesn’t wipe it out entirely, but it reduces the physiological symptoms of anxiety.
- tracedddd 5y agoNot none. The downsides are moderately decreased in my experience. I’m not sure the amount in tea, I suppose it varies greatly, but I’ve tried several different l-Theanine doses and caffeine mostly still feels like caffeine, just slightly modified.
- sunshineforever 5y agoIn my experience, many of the negative effects are greatly reduced. When my dad first brought back a box of PG Tips from a work trip in London, I discovered I could drink like, ten cups and still function. Only moderately burned out. If I had drank the same amount of coffee I'd've needed to lay down. It was great for all nighters playing Halo multiplayer. All this time I thought tea's superiority was due to it having "more hydration" or something. This is so interesting to know!
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- TheFreim 5y agoAlmost skipped an otherwise interesting topic because of this.
- chalst 5y agoI'm still able to edit the title: care to suggest another version that fits within 80 chars? The title alone fits, one char to spare, but I didn't want to pass off a 4-y.o. paper as if it was pharmacological news.
- xVedun 5y agoPossibly something like this: Caffeine and theanine have opposed effect on attention when stressed (2017) Based on the definition of emotional arousal, stress isn't 100% accurate, but perhaps better than aroused. [1] https://www.thefreedictionary.com/emotional+arousal https://www.thefreedictionary.com/emotional+arousal
- chalst 5y agoThat theanine has a beneficial effect on stress, via cortisol suppression, is a long-standing hypothesis. That it has other effects under the article's umbrella term of "emotional arousal" is one of the interesting novelties of the article for me. Too late to edit the title now, but for the benefit of next time, I'm still interested in suggestions.
- sunshineforever 5y agoI understood "arousal" to be the emotional sort of arousal, but I see your point.
- taeric 5y agoNeat that the point is that they offset each other. Not just that they have opposite effects used individually, but when combined they are no different from a placebo. I'll have to dive more on what the local processing means.
- jonnycomputer 5y agoIn the context of the experiment its whether participants paid attention to global or local features when making comparisons. Imagine a target object, a square made up multiple triangles. Then you have two options to select from: a square made up smaller rectangles (global similarity), or a hexagon made up of triangles (local similarity). Anyway, that's how its explained in the article.
- JohnWhigham 5y agoI've seen this in many places; people will take L-theanine to counteract any jittery effects of caffeine, but I never noticed anything. What L-theanine is helpful for is going to sleep and calming one's mind.
- srean 5y agoIndeed. When I am over-caffeinated I am energized but not exactly effective. L-theanine centers my mind.
- danielam 5y agoI have. I can drink green tea (including strong matcha), which does contain l-theanine, probably daily, but I cannot drink coffee daily for more than maybe 2 weeks without experiencing adverse affects. Even one cup of coffee can leave me agitated. Supplementing coffee with l-theanine completely eliminates agitation.
- amelius 5y agoCan you drink cola without adverse effects? Because I can. And coffee gives me issues after a week or two. Therefore something seems wrong about giving caffeine all the blame.
- fighterpilot 5y ago> And coffee gives me issues after a week or two. Have you tried drinking an equivalent amount of cola (in terms of caffeine dosage) every day for a week or two?
- amelius 5y agoYes, I think so. I drank a lot of (diet) cola at some point, like 1 gallon a day. Never got any issues similar to the ones I got from coffee.
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- pineconewarrior 5y agoAnecdotally, I have found l-theanine supplementation at night to work very well for insomnia and restful sleep.
- ianai 5y agoSame, though it does seem to make dreams more vivid. Probably important to be careful of dosing. Less may be more.
- eridan2 5y agowhich brand do you use?
- pineconewarrior 5y agoI typically grab whatever is reasonably priced. Right now I have the NOW branded 100mg capsules. I avoid the larger dosages for reasons mentioned in sibling comments. AFAIK it is not one of the supplements which requires careful brand selection (like a magnesium supplement).
- GNOMES 5y agoCopious amounts of coffee + ltheanine was very popular on my college campus around midterms/finals.
- LeifCarrotson 5y agoI used them heavily in college, then less in my early professional life, then more heavily when I had very young kids, now back to what feels like a reasonable 100mg caffeine + 200mg L-theanine a day. My life improved significantly when I realized that I was drinking soda, energy drinks, or coffee for the caffeine, not the taste or "nutrition": they're all extremely acidic, and some are extremely sugary. Instead of drinking my drugs, I drink from a water bottle and take a slow-release pill each morning with my multivitamin.
- sunshineforever 5y agoThat's such a great idea... I've done this with cigarettes and I've had similar thoughts about how I no longer enjoy coffee either.
- Clewza313 5y agoLooks like Hong Kongers may be onto a good thing with yuenyeung, the local blend of coffee and tea: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuenyeung https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuenyeung
- eternalban 5y ago"Tea is perceived as more relaxing than coffee, even though both contain caffeine. L-theanine in tea may account for the difference." Tea already contains both substances. Adding coffee would only up the caffeine levels + whatever else is in coffee. Unless I'm misunderstanding the abstract, this seems to argue for only drinking tea to get both the "cognitive effects" and the calming effect of L-theanine.
- p_j_w 5y agoSome people, myself included, prefer the taste of coffee, though. So if I can just add some flavorless theanine and get some nice cognitive effects out of the deal, that's great.
- weird-eye-issue 5y agoYou wouldn't mix tea in your coffee to do that. You would just buy L-Theanine powder and mix it in. It's not flavorless but due to the small quantity needed you shouldn't taste it once mixed in your coffee
- p_j_w 5y agoSure, but the folks in HK might enjoy that particular mix, right? I'm just trying to say that mixing in tea with your coffee isn't pointless or run counter to this particular study.
- eternalban 5y agoCoffee has other side-effects. If you are trying to quit smoking, for example, the task at hand will be far easier if you do not drink coffee. Nicotine breaks down caffeine and smokers who are coffee drinkers are subjected to heightened agitation due to increased caffeine intake when they stop smoking. Psychologically, this higher level of agitation is misinterpreted as nicotine cravings. It’s a vicious circle. Fair disclosure: I love the aroma of coffee and am a coffee drinker and a smoker. They are like bad friends for whom I have developed fond feelings.
- Dragging-Syrup 5y ago36 participants on metabolic processes study seems like a small sample size
- dylan604 5y agoNot defending ridiculous claims based on small sample sets, but isn't this how it's supposed to work? You run some tests and notice a pattern and develop an hypothesis, and then continue to expand the test to see if it holds true? Then other groups perform the same tests to hopefully receive the same results so that we end up with known facts. Essentially, the definition of scientific method.
- SantalBlush 5y agoYeah, but people aren't actually that interested in the scientific method here. Criticizing things is an easy way to appear smart, and that's the main point. Empirical research has never been about some true/false binary; that's a myth perpetuated on HN. It has always been about strength of evidence, improving models, and opening paths for future research. I've seen people dismiss case studies by decrying that their n=1, for god's sake.
- Darmody 5y agoI've been taking tabs with 100mg of caffeine and 250mg of l-theanine after lunch and I found it better than a large coffee.
- ianai 5y agoDo you take anything for sleep?
- hammock 5y agoTheanine is supposed to help with sleep too
- Darmody 5y agoNo. I've taken melatonin in the past and I don't know if it worked or it was just placebo because I changed also some habits like not going to bed with my tablet to watch Youtube. After taking the pill I didn't stare at any screen and I kept the lights as low as possible to help my body produce more melatonin. Some "rituals" before sleeping are helpful too, like turning every thing off and drinking a cup of linden tea or valerian tea and then going to bed. Even a rooibos or anything without caffeine works, the important part is the ritual where you relax and prepare your body for the night. In addition to that I found out that a little bit of intensive workout helps a lot. You don't need a 10km run or to light weights for 2 hours. Just put some tension into your body. You can't do a push up? Do half and stay there hanging with some tension on your muscles. Stretch your body until you feel the burn for a while, specially legs and back. There are some yoga posses where you stretch and also use your strength and they don't require any experience. And of course, don't hurt yourself doing more than what your body can take.
- peteretep 5y agoMy (previously medicated) anxiety disorder has disappeared since I stopped drinking more than one coffee a day and started supplementing with l-theanine.
- deagle50 5y agoWhich brand?
- peteretep 5y agoWith the caveat that I am sure it doesn’t matter, Puritan’s Pride 200mg
- CountDrewku 5y agoIf you get anxiety from bodily sensations then caffeine is no bueno. It pretty much gives you the initial sensations of a panic attack then sets you off from there.
- hfjtntnfjfk 5y agoThis is the kind of paper that yesterday article about how we should assume all medical research is fraudulent warned about.
- v77 5y agoYeah, holy crap, if your alarm bells aren't ringing from the moment you start reading a paper like this by now I don't know what to tell you.
- mumblemumble 5y agoHas anyone actually read the paper? I hit a paywall. And the abstract doesn't even give enough information to describe what they actually found. It gives p-values, but not effect sizes.
- hfjtntnfjfk 5y agoN=36 and testing protocol of 4 servings over a short period of time is all you need to know. Even if you assume all they find is true, the effect could disappear or change into something else one month after initiation (dose accommodation, etc...)
- regularfry 5y agoWhat you'd hope is that someone would use that result to get funding for a bigger study. I've got a lot of sympathy for the sceptical position, but you've got to start somewhere.
- maininformer 5y ago"As you know from teaching introductory statistics, 30 is infinity." -Gelman
- soperj 5y agoJust wanted to say that this quote is hilarious. I tried to look it up, but couldn't find anything. What's it from?
- taeric 5y agoAny recommendations on this self experiments to see how much coffee does or does not affect you? I ask because I don't get any high or rush from coffee, that I notice. I would be interested in tracking signs looking for impact. But I mostly just like the taste.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- mumblemumble 5y agoI guess it depends on what you're looking for? For a subtle effect like this, I would argue that it's not actually possible to experiment on yourself in a meaningful way. If you don't use a double blind protocol, then any real effect is going to be completely overwhelmed by things like the placebo effect. And the absolute minimum number of people required to implement a double blind protocol is three: one to assign treatment and analyze the data, another to administer the treatment and collect the data, and one person to actually get experimented on. For this particular experiment, I'd go a step further and say say that the absolute minimum is 4, because you want to make sure that both alternatives are being tested under conditions where it's the participant's first time performing the cognitive task you're using for evaluation. That's only possible if you have separate participants for the treatment and control.
- taeric 5y agoI was asking more in the general case for coffee. I mean, I know basically how many beers will get me drunk and am well aware of the times I drink. Coffee, though? I read tons of folks saying it affects them... But it feels similar to the folks saying vitamin d improved their life. I am not claiming they are false, but I am claiming I don't feel it.
- mumblemumble 5y agoI don't have a source for this, but I've heard that coffee legitimately does affect some people differently. Because some people have a gene for an enzyme that metabolizes caffeine very effectively, and others don't. Which, that may not even be true. In which case, I don't mind. It was all by way of illustrating, be careful trying to extrapolate from a sample size of 1. In fact, just don't do it. Conversely, don't assume an aggregate statistic accurately describes anybody in particular.
- dukeofdoom 5y agoI noticed when I switched from cream to oat milk, the coffee hits a little differently. It feels stronger. I'm not sure if its some interaction with milk. But paper should consider what is consumed with the coffee too. Some people will add sugar, and some even add butter.
- PascLeRasc 5y agoHave you tried drinking it black as well? I wonder if it’s added sugar that a lot of oat milks have or something drowsy-inducing in milk.
- dukeofdoom 5y agoI haven't really. I switched to Oatmilk, because I was getting stomach cramps about once a month. Still haven't figured out if the milk was causing it, because it happened again after the switch. Maybe its something in the coffee, maybe the pesticides they use or maybe I don't clean the coffee machine frequently enough. I drink as many as 5 cups in day. So I'm might have a bit of a problem.
- minsc__and__boo 5y agoOat milk has more carbs than the rest of the alt (?) milks, and sometimes more than cow. Def could be the reason for feeling better.
- pixelbreaker 5y agopossibly the lipids in cow's milk slow the ingestion of caffeine. depends on the oat milk you drink and how much fat it has in its ingredients.
- scns 5y agoOat milk has added vegetable oils like sunflower, which have higher amounts of unsaturated fats i think. Someone mentioned coconut oil, which is high in satarated fat, could make a difference.
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- thomasfl 5y agoI simply can't understand why it is still uncommon to sleep at the office, while they give this psychoactive drug called caffeine for free. According to wikipedia, caffeine is the world's most widely consumed psychoactive drug.
- newsbinator 5y agoIf you sleep at the office you're wasting time and slacking. If you can keep your eyes open while staring at an open email you're being productive.
- jack_riminton 5y agoThis guy corporates
- toxik 5y agoPlease don’t turn this place into reddit.
- jack_riminton 5y agoThis guy hacks
- CountDrewku 5y agoSadly this is the truth. It's all about perceived work and not actual work.
- mbil 5y agoSince working from home due to the pandemic I’ve been able to wean myself completely off caffeine. To not get tired in the afternoons, I take a 15-20 minute nap each day after lunch. I think this has been good for me, and I’m worried that when I have to go back to the office I’ll be dependent on coffee again.
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- nextlevelwizard 5y agoI've been mixin L-theanine to my office coffee for years. It might be pure placebo, but I feel like I can concentrate better with it.
- DantesKite 5y agoHow's the taste? Notice any huge changes?
- gqz 5y agoL-Theanine is somewhat sweet and... chalky, perhaps. It's a little savory/funky too. Not altogether an unpleasant flavour. I occasionally take a teaspoon of unpacked L-Theanine powder and stir it into a glass of water. It doesn't mix very readily, but once it does, it's barely noticeable (at least to my palate). I don't notice it when I repeat this process with green or black tea, so I would be surprised if anyone could detect it in coffee.
- mullen 5y agoAlthough slightly higher in cost, you can get Theanine in pill form.
- nextlevelwizard 5y agoIt doesn’t really taste like anything. Biggest thing is that you need to stir it quite a bit more than something like sugar to get it mixed
- PaulHoule 5y agoThe lady at the Korean grocery store seemed suspicious when I bought the last tea set they had. (They hadn't sold one in years.) I think of it as a "high performance" teapot because I can heat water in a kettle and use Sencha + Matcha to have delicious and relaxing green tea in about 2 minutes and 30 seconds. I wash out the metal filter and it's ready to go again.
- jvanderbot 5y agoTheanine has been shown to have a noticeable relaxation without sedative effect, and a minor decrease in anxiety, within minutes of ingestion. Yes, there are problems with all studies, and it sure is fun to pile on, but a cursory search of examine.com confirms my own experience and that of amateur noot-ers: Theanine takes the edge off caffeine and helps focus. Caffeine+Theanine is the third highest recommended home treatment for focus (behind exercise and sleep) on r/nootropics for whatever that's worth. You can find other studies here: https://examine.com/supplements/theanine/ https://examine.com/supplements/theanine/ I take it semi-regularly during times I'm over-consuming caffeine, but find that I come to resent its absence when I stop taking it.
- blacksmith_tb 5y agoI always take theanine with my caffeine (that is, I drink tea).
- jvanderbot 5y agoI've recently switched over to green tea and really wish I had earlier.
- actually_a_dog 5y agoWhat did you switch from? Coffee? Coffee has some decent health benefits as well, but probably isn't so great for your anxiety levels. :-)
- jvanderbot 5y agoYes from coffee. I was almost at a pot/day and it was not helping.
- wil421 5y agoI switch to espresso a couple years ago and never looked back. A double shot latte in the AM is enough to keep me going and I don’t need a full pot. If I’m especially tired I’ll do a straight espresso shot in the afternoon.
- w4llstr33t 5y agoAnecdotally I've found that taking some l-theanine with coffee helps takes some of the edge off of the caffeine.
- bitshiftfaced 5y agoI have a theory that the jittery/anxious feeling people say they get from caffeine is mainly due to the size of the dose and "quickness" of it. If you find that theanine fixes it, then great. But I'd also suggest trying 100 mg time-release caffeine and see how it goes. You might be surprised. This also has the benefit of needing less total caffeine while lasting you longer through the day. (Just a heads up: many brands only say they're time-release but don't seem to actually have the coating/capsule/matrix that you'd expect from an actual time-release pill.)
- toxik 5y agoAgreed, if I drink a lot of strong coffee fast, I’m basically shaking for the next hour or so. My solution is dilution. I put about four cups worth of coffee into the filter, and then 1.3 L water in the tank. The result is very weak coffee that you can drink throughout the day, keeping you mildly caffeinated and hydrated simultaneously. If you’re making coffee for people who can’t accept watery coffee, just brew normally and add water afterwards. The Italians in the office will curse your name, but that’s just a sign you’re doing it right.
- ehnto 5y agoThe Italians in your office would have wanted espresso! That's actually an interesting point, we're generally talking about coffee as if it's all the same, but I see people here talking about instant grounds, drip coffee and then there is espresso, I'm sure they all work out quite different. If you're used to grinding your own beans you'll know different beans have different caffeine amounts, and different extraction methods all have different yields. Where I am it's all espresso, thanks to Italian immigrants bringing over stovetop espresso kettles in the 40s and jumpstarting our now incumbent coffee culture. I've never even seen a drip coffee machine, it's espresso machines in petrol stations, offices, cafes, restaurants, people's homes. If I pull an espresso shot for too long it's going to have more caffeine in it than had it pulled really quickly, even though it's the same amount of coffee/water solution in the cup. So one person's four cups a day is rarely going to match another persons four cups a day. I'm sure it's the same for instant coffee brands or grinds too, when you take it all into consideration it's going to be hard to know what caffeine intake anyone has.
- zachruss92 5y agoThis isn't super surprising based on my personal experience. I take theanine in the morning to help clear my mind before working and also before bed to stop my mind from racing. I have found that taking caffeine and other prescription stimulants(Adderall)have a negative effect in some ways increasing my anxiety or otherwise hindering my ability of outside-the-box thinking. Subsequently I have stopped taking Adderall completely for about a month now and I feel a ton better.
- mombul 5y agoI see a lot of people say "I take theanine" but what do you mean exactly? You just drink tea or does it come in other forms?
- singhrac 5y agoL-theanine is readily available in supplement form in the US (e.g. $6 for a bottle of 100 pills). I don't take it regularly but that's mostly because I haven't examined the evidence carefully.
- lm28469 5y agoProbably supplements. Be careful about what you buy though, internet is full of random "made in china" supplements containing god knows what
- meowkit 5y agoIt comes in natural things like mushrooms / green tea, but its also synthesized in capsules / powder / products like neurogum.
- marttt 5y agoSomewhat related: In his recent book "This is Your Mind on Plants", Michael Pollan also discusses caffeine addiction. Transcript of an interview with him on Tim Ferriss' blog: https://tim.blog/2021/06/30/michael-pollan-this-is-your-mind-on-plants-transcript/ https://tim.blog/2021/06/30/michael-pollan-this-is-your-mind... I've been off caffeine and yerba mate (of which the yerba I consumed daily for the past 9 or so years) for two weeks. Feels really great, I admit being somewhat less sharp mentally (for now), but I still get everything relevant done. And -- maybe yet I feel kind of more... mentally balanced? Imagine having less thoughts throughout the day, but the ones you have, you'll like more. :) It's like my energy levels are much more consistent, no sudden drops throughout the day -- and that's even when I'm doing heavy physical work. (I'm a full-time forestry worker, tree planter, brush cutter these days -- now not even thinking about the usual midday yerba mate kick I used to rely on.) The tiredness that sets in at night also feels much more calming. So IMO it's a highly recommended shift overall -- I guess just the first 4-5-6-7 days without coffee/strong tea may be really hard.
- themodelplumber 5y agoCurious, do you use anything else? I like trying out various ideas on long or difficult hikes. One category that consistently helps is the anti-inflammatory category. I've also tried some pretty interesting nootropics including one that was designed to support work in extreme environments, and the difference in feeling from caffeine was pretty wild. (I did have some pretty fascinating but unwanted side effects while getting the dosage dialed in, basically what I'd call super soldier mode, so I hesitate to mention it by name...)
- actually_a_dog 5y agoI'm not sure if this is exactly what you're getting at, but, in the anti-inflammatory category, glucosamine and aspirin are both great, and have some pretty good science behind them.
- marttt 5y agoNope, nothing else. I have been heavily relying on yerba mate -- one sip or tiny cup works wonders during heavy tree planting sessions. This has always been my secret weapon, because, in contrast to coffee, it doesn't seem to cause a feeling of fluid loss. Also, during tree planting, I only occasionally eat a few carrots or other vegetables to help me finish the day. After that, a well-deserved meal will follow. Disclaimer, though: I have experimented with intermittent fasting for several years, so I suppose my body has already adapted to long periods of hunger. Be careful with this stuff, though, and don't listen to my silly advice.
- Deutscher 5y agoDoes anyone else suffer from GI issues like epigastric pain (acidity) brought on by tea/coffee consumption? How do you deal with it?
- DantesKite 5y agoI don't suffer GI issues because of coffee consumption, but I do have GI issues that I'm currently resolving with Visbiome. It's expensive, but it's really the only probiotic that has ever made a difference for me. My acid reflux is almost completely gone because of it.
- paraph1n 5y agoCould you talk more about what your acid reflux was like? I'm curious about finding new ways to treat my own. Been on 20-40mg of (es)omeprazole daily for a decade.
- abawany 5y agoFor coffee, I've seen people recommend putting in a dash of baking soda in the drink to reduce the acidity though I haven't tried this. I also tried some of the low-acid coffees and they were fine though the flavor is in no way comparable to my favorite poison :). Drinking these beverages when you are not expecting to recline (e.g. in the morning and early afternoon) may also help. However, if you feel these symptoms are pretty bad, it is worth going to a gastroenterologist - chronic upper GI acidity can lead to GERD and that can lead to esophageal cancer.
- nikk1 5y agoI have GERD and take esomeprazole daily. I used to take omeprazole but it gave me headaches
- cutthegrass2 5y agoArticles mentioning caffeine and or theanine always remind me i'm drinking too much coffee and need to cut down. For what it's worth though, I certainly notice the effects of theanine when I take it, usually 200mg upon waking before my first coffee.
- rupertdev 5y agoI've taken L-Theanine in the morning with coffee, but I found that it seems to limit the effects of my stimulant medication for ADHD, which I suppose makes sense. I will likely try taking it in the afternoon if I drink another cup of coffee.
- raducu 5y agoI vaguely remember theanine helped me sleep. I've had bad sleep forever, but since I've started concerta, my sleep is worse than ever. Guess I should give theanine another shot.
- ck425 5y agoInteresting. In what way? I just started a generic version of concerta and so far haven't found L-Theanine to have any negative effect, though I mostly get it from green tea and only take it in supplement form.
- mkw2000 5y agoI was taking theanine pills for a while and I definitely felt like it had a positive impact on my overall mood
- klhutchins 5y agoAnecdotally, Caffeine+L-Theanine makes my anxiety worse and my ability to focus severely decreased, basically the opposite effects of what people seem to achieve with this combo.
- paraph1n 5y agoAs compared to caffeine alone? Or as compared to nothing?
- klhutchins 5y agoCaffeine alone. I should probably give it a try without caffeine, and probably take a T-break on the caffeine too. But I'm not sure I have the motivation to do that.
- jonnycomputer 5y ago>Caffeine reduced flanker conflict difference scores on the Attention Network Test (p < 0.05), theanine increased difference scores (p < 0.05), and the combination did not differ from placebo. Thus, under emotional arousal, caffeine and theanine exert opposite effects on certain attentional processes, but when consumed together, they counteract the effects of each other. Haven't seen the actual paper yet, but generally reduced difference scores is taken as "better" performance on a cognitive control tasks. Which would mean, caffeine better than theanine, and better than caffeine plus theanine. Don't really know that however, because you lose information when you take a difference score. For example, caffeinated individuals may suddenly find non-emotional stimuli just as distracting as emotional stimuli, and so difference between conditions disappears. That's why its important to note the change in all conditions (emotional vs non-emotional flankers) in all experimental groups.
- pvarangot 5y agoThey used "highly arousing negative film clips and pictures" to stimulate, so since it's negative clips under that kind of stimuli coffee would be worse.
- jonnycomputer 5y agoI don't follow your reasoning. Worse at what precisely?
- jonnycomputer 5y agoI've had a chance to look at the paper. So there were two tasks, one which contrasted global and local information processing when comparing figures based on global or local features, and another which measured three aspects of attentional control: alerting, orienting, and interference, in which the primary measure of interest was response time. There was no contrast between an emotional arousal treatment and a non-aroused treatment, as I had thought. Instead, this contrasts with previous literature that did not compare caffeine and theanine under conditions of emotional arousal. For the first task, they found that in the caffeine treatment subjects were more likely to pay attention to global features when rating similarity relative to placebo, and that in the theanine treatment, they were more likely to pay attention to local features. In the second task, they found no significant differences in alerting and orienting, so I won't discuss these. For executive control (interference resolution), there were differences. This task is a flanker task. They have to indicate the direction an arrow is facing when flanked by arrows that were either pointing the same direction (congruent), pointing the different direction (incongruent) or neither (neutral). They then computed difference scores by subtracting the mean response time from congruent trials from mean response times from incongruent trials. Ordinarily, incongruent trials are harder, so response times will be slower than in the congruent condition. To quote from the article, which substantiates what I said about how these difference scores are generally interpreted, "for executive control, higher difference scores indicate poorer functioning." So what were the results? Relative to placebo, in the theanine treatment subjects had significantly larger difference scores, which the authors would interpret as poorer executive functioning. Relative to placebo, in the the caffeine treatment, subjects had significantly smaller difference scores, which, again, the authors would treat has better executive functioning. To reiterate what I said before: difference scores lose information. The authors do not show the raw mean response times by condition. So just because the difference scores were greater in theanine relative to placebo than in caffeine relative to placebo does not, in my opinion, unambiguously tells us about performance. For example, it could be that in the caffeine treatment, people get slower in congruent trials and the incongruent response times remained the same. They also collected subjective ratings of mood. It's worth quoting them on that: "Caffeine consumption, both with and without theanine, elevated feelings of tension, depression, anger, confusion, and total mood disturbance. In the absence of theanine, caffeine also enhanced feelings of vigor and depression. Such findings are consistent with previous studies showing that caffeine reliably increases self-reported arousal measures across a range of doses (e.g., 100–400 mg caffeine) (Addicott and Laurienti 2009; Mahoney et al. 2011; Smith et al. 2006). Thus, under heightened emotional arousal, the mood effects of caffeine and theanine appear to be driven by caffeine." So is caffeine or theanine better? Well the experimental tasks are really hard to interpret. I guess if you are doing something that requires a lot of control in a distracting context (say landing a plane, when your co-pilot won't stop talking about what they did in Morocco) in an emotionally stressful situation (your spouse just called to tell you that they want a divorce), maybe caffeine would be better than theanine ... for landing the plane at least. But you might get more depressed. (this last paragraph is mostly a bit of dark humor, don't take it too seriously)
- SavageBeast 5y agoCommencing self experiment in 3,2,1... Combining with this other little jewel found on HN earlier this afternoon: https://sudo.fm/?ambience=1,50|2,50 https://sudo.fm/?ambience=1,50|2,50
- zug_zug 5y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theanine#Effects https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theanine#Effects
- MaryBoyagi19 5y agoThey are both good in the right proportions, harmony matters
- shannifin 5y agoNeither does anything to me at all (at least mentally)
- grodes 5y agoI've been off caffeine for 3 months from now. It is harder to start to work until I get engaged into what I am doing (previously it was instant after the coffee shot), but I am getting used to it and I feel way less stressed during the day and more balanced in the aspects of energy and mental states. It is not like now my life has changed, but before I needed the coffee to be able to work properly and now I do not.