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So our kids are getting older so I've been paying more attention to popular social networks and it's wild how many YouTubers, Twitch'ers, TikTok'ers, Instagram'

So our kids are getting older so I've been paying more attention to popular social networks and it's wild how many YouTubers, Twitch'ers, TikTok'ers, Instagram'ers have OF content directly linked from their non-porn bios. I don't like it, but I'm not sure what a good solution is. I mean, people are free to do what they'd like, but it's hard to police screen time 100% of the time and their peer group has a lot more access than they do so even if I can block it 100$ they'll be exposed to it somewhere else. We've talked about it and I feel like that's all I can do now. I just hate how normalized it feels when many of their social media "role models' turn to porn.

seattle_spring 5y ago
Related, it sucks that so much content nowadays is just a thinly veiled advertisement for OF pages.
- ipaddr 5y ago
  This is a result of youtube's policies. You can't run ads because your content is unacceptable but keep uploading videos, build your following and push fans to someone they can make money.
  - seattle_spring 5y ago
    Not just YouTube, but much of Reddit too. I'd hazard to say 50% of all /r/roastme posts are OnlyFans ads, for example.
- digianarchist 5y ago
  You can blame OnlyFans themselves. No search. No way to advertise on the platform. No discoverability.
- rawbot 5y ago
  Or for Patreon subs.
ryandrake 5y ago
I don't know--as I get older, and see things like this, I can't help but think maybe I'm just turning into an out-of-touch old fart. Maybe norms are simply changing and the next generations are building a better world free of all these stupid taboos and hangups. My ol' grandpa looked at my generation and just didn't understand how we were OK with things like interracial marriage, same sex relationships, drug legalization, etc. He resigned himself to the fact that he was just getting old and inflexible and the world was changing out from under him. Maybe the same thing is happening to us, now.
- pcthrowaway 5y ago
  > how we were OK with things like interracial marriage, same sex relationships, drug prohibition, etc Curious if you meant drug legalization here... or is this in reference to studies about younger generations using fewer recreational drugs than children of the 60s?
  - ryandrake 5y ago
    Thanks! Corrected
- gnull 5y ago
  This argument applies to any change. Trivially, not all the changes must be accepted, therefore the argument is flawed. UPD: rafale is right, I misunderstood the parent. It's not about any change, it's about allowing more freedoms.
  - rafale 5y ago
    The way I read it is that each generation is pushing the limit of freedoms. Sounds good if we stop right there... But is it? When does it become bad? Should a parent be accepting that their daughter opens an OF when she turns 18? Should society be accepting of it as a side "gig economy" kind of job? How about the boys who are usually on the consumers/payers end? We are monetizing intimacy and sex at a level like nothing before. Sure, it's always consenting adults exercising their constitutional rights and freedoms. But it feels wrong. Like the parent said, maybe I am just getting old.
SilverRed 5y ago
Have you considered the alternative that this is not an evil which you are unable to control but just another way of living / thinking of sexual content? There is nothing inherently evil about this stuff so why is it terrible that it is becoming more accepted/common? If in 30 years we live in a society where people post nudes like they do facebook posts, is there anything wrong about this? Could you describe the harm caused which doesn't boil down to attitudes of society?
- rorykoehler 5y ago
  I think I sit in the middle on this. I don't think it is evil but if you dig under the surface a little you will find a lot of trauma, anxiety and desperation whether it is narcissistic instagram posts or OF style porn.
  - girvo 5y ago
    I think you're correct, but I also think that's a property of the human condition and underlies nearly everything humans do for attention (to some extent or another, obviously to a much lesser extent the broader we're talking). Trauma, anxiety and desperation are so common that I'm not sure what isn't impacted by them, I guess is my meaning.
    - sebmellen 5y ago
      I don’t know… I think people are cynical these days in large part because the world around us is dominated by this status angst. But it wasn’t always this way. Not even close. I’ve met many people who grew up in pre- and post-WWII Germany, and from how they describe it, the concept of status didn’t really exist then as it does now. Yes, there were rich and poor. But people fell in love with and married people in their towns and villages, and were not unhappy in doing so. With the exception of the war (a significant exemption, true) people’s lives seemed clear-cut, and no one felt the need to constantly be posting or drip-feeding off of likes or views or even money. These apps and platforms are recent inventions, and they are dangerous. Status is no longer a local or regional commodity, it is global. And your status is constantly being evaluated against every metric. Instead of being satisfied with being the best wine-grower in the region, for example, one is now forced to also compare oneself to the best bodybuilders in the world and the richest businesspeople. Though at times overdramatized, ”The Social Dilemma” is a great documentary on this topic. I would also recommend Tristan Harris’s podcast episode with Joe Rogan.
rorykoehler 5y ago
I'm not there yet but when I am I will use it as an opportunity to explore leverage and how being a porn creator is typically a desperate move by those without leverage (e.g. from the article the woman was sleeping in her car and had no income). Porn needs to be seen through the backstage lens. What you see on camera is not what is really happening. /r/instagramreality on reddit is another good resource.
- valvar 5y ago
  I think that's clearly nonsense and not a helpful take (if you lie to your kids, unwittingly or not, that will just erode their trust in you). Of course you can find desperate adult actors, just as you can find desperate investment bankers or desperate software engineers who would rather be doing something else. Do you have any evidence that the number of desperate adult actors is especially significant? I think a better angle is to discuss dignity and how porn affects the consumer's own world-view.
vmception 5y ago
On the other hand, I have found it pleasant how reliably non-offensive it is to ask almost any attractive* woman about their subscription content now. It is mostly freemium or they are willing to have an objective conversation about how they’ve been thinking about it. I don’t really think it is different from a parenting perspective. Many of the women** appreciate the approach about their content because the intentions are clearer and they don’t have to guess what a guy thinks about anything while also knowing that guy finds them attractive but isn’t likely going to bother with anything non-consensual or at least not blow up on them on the spot. From what I can tell, many of the women (that I’ve met in person and subsequently asked about their streaming services) were also hostesses and strippers and/or dabbling in modeling and pivoted when the venues weren’t available through the pandemic, something that offered only a slightly greater temporary anonymity and equally outside of the view of protective parents. When the analytics leak from these websites, I bet the demographics data would subvert all assumptions. If enough people do it, the “blackmail” potential from having digital shareable erotic content evaporates. So that should give some peace of mind with this direction of the world. *A consensus-level of visual attraction, as opposed to something more subjective. ie. you can look at someone and guess which ones have been suggested to do content by others, and likely have a following to stay active by the time you showed up **My perspective is only about women and isn’t suggesting that only women are content creators
- kreft 5y ago
  It's hard to make the argument for the harmlessness of porn when the sight of an attractive woman triggers the thought "I need to ask about their subscription content".
  - vmception 5y ago
    I don’t think I made that argument and I didn't mention porn, streamers and content creators have to be interesting To me it’s no different than guessing who was approached about joining a sorority Or who orders pumpkin spice lattes In this reality it doesnt preclude them from doing anything else professionally, simultaneously or in the future. It is true that some people will try to exclude them, it is also true that it becomes more benign the more that other people have potentially revealing content out there I find that reconcilable, and reinforcing that any performer or consumer affects from this kind of labor should be addressed as any other kind of labor
thinkingemote 5y ago
>people are free to do what they'd like Your post seems to suggest you would not be happy for your kids to do what they like when they get older. Often people seem to be happy for other peoples children to do what they like but not theirs. To me this seems like the wrong attitude towards ones neighbours. There's 2 options therefore, for me, if I am honest with my family: disapprove of porn as a life choice or approve and encourage it including for one's own children. I think most parents around the world would choose the first option, but the second is gaining in popularity and acceptability especially in the west.
- krzrak 5y ago
  > Often people seem to be happy for other peoples children to do what they like but not theirs. To me this seems like the wrong attitude towards ones neighbours. I think you miss the important concept, that people can have different world views and different things might be acceptable to them. So I may not approve my kids/family/myself doing something, living some kind of lifestyle, but I accept that there are people who have different values and it's OK for me (as long as it doesn't infringe my freedom, of course). Otherwise, we have religious fundamentalism.
  - MrBuddyCasino 5y ago
    > I accept that there are people who have different values and it's OK for me Your children do not grow up in a vacuum. You as parents have limited influence, the society they grow up in is having at least an equal impact. You cannot successfully transmit values such as "porn is bad" if everyone around you, the media and the teacher in school is telling your kids the opposite. Humans to not get raised and live in isolation or a vacuum, society matters. A lot. > Otherwise, we have religious fundamentalism. If you extrapolate your point of view, hopefully finding that is destined to fail, you will have made the first step in realising why religions exist.
- golergka 5y ago
  > Often people seem to be happy for other peoples children to do what they like but not theirs. To me this seems like the wrong attitude towards ones neighbours. That strikes me as odd. There are some areas of life that have competition on them. I accept the fact that there are "losers" in life, but I want my kids to be "winners". I love my kids more than I love others, and want better things for them — who wouldn't? (I specifically don't mention porn here, because I don't make a point about porn, but rather about being happy for other children to do something but not mine. Also, I put "winners" and "losers" in quotes because obviously it's a very primitive description of reality, and I actually don't think of sex workers as "losers").
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
- draw_down 5y ago
  Good luck with that my friend! And don’t let me catch you touting the first amendment in the meantime.
SkyMarshal 5y ago
One thing you can do is use all these things as teaching moments. Teach your children how to recognize all the ways they’re being manipulated, both by media, and in person by other people. Build up their awareness and defenses at an early age, so they’ll be less vulnerable and more prepared when they go out on their own one day. Dark patterns, psychological manipulations, emotions and biases are all things they need to be aware of. Once people are aware of how they’re being manipulated and can recognize it in real-time they’re less likely to fall victim to it. Some resources: [0]:https://www.darkpatterns.org/ https://www.darkpatterns.org/ [1]:https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/49176 https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/49176 (Games People Play) [2]:https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/133203 https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/133203 (Gentle Art of Verbal Self Defense) [3]:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manufacturing_Consent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manufacturing_Consent [4]:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_manipulation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_manipulation [5]:https://fs.blog/great-talks/psychology-human-misjudgment/ https://fs.blog/great-talks/psychology-human-misjudgment/ [6]:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thinking,_Fast_and_Slow https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thinking,_Fast_and_Slow
jeromenerf 5y ago
There is just nothing good to expect from companies that promotes excessive porn, guns, drugs, gambling, meat, soda, … for money. I am far from religious or straight edge, but the ways of debauchery are nothing new or surprising. There is no doubt in anyone’s mind that these are just … debauchery.
standardUser 5y ago
Sex is certainly the most normal thing in the world so I'm not sure we should be fighting against normalizing it. I understand the difference is paid versus non-paid, but in a market-oriented society the realm of "non-paid" is generally very tiny and it's arguable that the two can't really be divided in our current socioeconomic orientation.
ggggtez 5y ago
I think there are risks to doing porn, but even in this article, the issues are not always related to the porn itself, but bad passwords leading to account compromise, or linking your family identity to your porn identity. Understand that "I don't like it" is not a convincing argument to anyone but yourself. Be aware of the consequences, but don't over dramatize it. If you only share the worst case examples, your kids will understand that you are using scare tactics and what you are saying is unlikely. They live in this world and will know plenty of counter examples where nothing bad happened to the person in question. So, be informed, and be reasonable. Express caution, and concern around linking porn to your "real" identity, and the trouble that this causes people. Discuss things protecting your privacy by avoiding showing your face, house, etc. Don't re-use usernames. A person who is informed on the real dangers of how people get found, will be more likely to think twice before posting a nude. And if your children are of the female persuasion, it's worth pointing out that women tend to get the brunt of "punishment", while men often are not really affected. Maybe if your children are male, you might not want to mention that, but it's probably good for you to be aware of it.
nitwit005 5y ago
Is it all that much of a change? If it was a few decades back, they'd be watching TV where the commercial breaks had advertisements for "Girls Gone Wild", and MTV had that show Undressed that was often compared to pornography on late at night. I suppose it's different that "influencers" are pushing it instead of companies, but the basic problems seems fairly similar.
kar5pt 5y ago
This is not new. Internet porn was mainstream when I was in middle/high school in the 00's. Every boy was looking at it and it was way more hard-core than what you see on onlyfans. If anything porn has gotten softer since then.

seattle_spring 5y ago

Related, it sucks that so much content nowadays is just a thinly veiled advertisement for OF pages.

ipaddr 5y ago
This is a result of youtube's policies. You can't run ads because your content is unacceptable but keep uploading videos, build your following and push fans to someone they can make money.
- seattle_spring 5y ago
  Not just YouTube, but much of Reddit too. I'd hazard to say 50% of all /r/roastme posts are OnlyFans ads, for example.
digianarchist 5y ago
You can blame OnlyFans themselves. No search. No way to advertise on the platform. No discoverability.
rawbot 5y ago
Or for Patreon subs.

ryandrake 5y ago

I don't know--as I get older, and see things like this, I can't help but think maybe I'm just turning into an out-of-touch old fart. Maybe norms are simply changing and the next generations are building a better world free of all these stupid taboos and hangups. My ol' grandpa looked at my generation and just didn't understand how we were OK with things like interracial marriage, same sex relationships, drug legalization, etc. He resigned himself to the fact that he was just getting old and inflexible and the world was changing out from under him. Maybe the same thing is happening to us, now.

pcthrowaway 5y ago
> how we were OK with things like interracial marriage, same sex relationships, drug prohibition, etc Curious if you meant drug legalization here... or is this in reference to studies about younger generations using fewer recreational drugs than children of the 60s?
- ryandrake 5y ago
  Thanks! Corrected
gnull 5y ago
This argument applies to any change. Trivially, not all the changes must be accepted, therefore the argument is flawed. UPD: rafale is right, I misunderstood the parent. It's not about any change, it's about allowing more freedoms.
- rafale 5y ago
  The way I read it is that each generation is pushing the limit of freedoms. Sounds good if we stop right there... But is it? When does it become bad? Should a parent be accepting that their daughter opens an OF when she turns 18? Should society be accepting of it as a side "gig economy" kind of job? How about the boys who are usually on the consumers/payers end? We are monetizing intimacy and sex at a level like nothing before. Sure, it's always consenting adults exercising their constitutional rights and freedoms. But it feels wrong. Like the parent said, maybe I am just getting old.

SilverRed 5y ago

Have you considered the alternative that this is not an evil which you are unable to control but just another way of living / thinking of sexual content? There is nothing inherently evil about this stuff so why is it terrible that it is becoming more accepted/common? If in 30 years we live in a society where people post nudes like they do facebook posts, is there anything wrong about this? Could you describe the harm caused which doesn't boil down to attitudes of society?

rorykoehler 5y ago
I think I sit in the middle on this. I don't think it is evil but if you dig under the surface a little you will find a lot of trauma, anxiety and desperation whether it is narcissistic instagram posts or OF style porn.
- girvo 5y ago
  I think you're correct, but I also think that's a property of the human condition and underlies nearly everything humans do for attention (to some extent or another, obviously to a much lesser extent the broader we're talking). Trauma, anxiety and desperation are so common that I'm not sure what isn't impacted by them, I guess is my meaning.
  - sebmellen 5y ago
    I don’t know… I think people are cynical these days in large part because the world around us is dominated by this status angst. But it wasn’t always this way. Not even close. I’ve met many people who grew up in pre- and post-WWII Germany, and from how they describe it, the concept of status didn’t really exist then as it does now. Yes, there were rich and poor. But people fell in love with and married people in their towns and villages, and were not unhappy in doing so. With the exception of the war (a significant exemption, true) people’s lives seemed clear-cut, and no one felt the need to constantly be posting or drip-feeding off of likes or views or even money. These apps and platforms are recent inventions, and they are dangerous. Status is no longer a local or regional commodity, it is global. And your status is constantly being evaluated against every metric. Instead of being satisfied with being the best wine-grower in the region, for example, one is now forced to also compare oneself to the best bodybuilders in the world and the richest businesspeople. Though at times overdramatized, ”The Social Dilemma” is a great documentary on this topic. I would also recommend Tristan Harris’s podcast episode with Joe Rogan.

rorykoehler 5y ago

I'm not there yet but when I am I will use it as an opportunity to explore leverage and how being a porn creator is typically a desperate move by those without leverage (e.g. from the article the woman was sleeping in her car and had no income). Porn needs to be seen through the backstage lens. What you see on camera is not what is really happening. /r/instagramreality on reddit is another good resource.

valvar 5y ago
I think that's clearly nonsense and not a helpful take (if you lie to your kids, unwittingly or not, that will just erode their trust in you). Of course you can find desperate adult actors, just as you can find desperate investment bankers or desperate software engineers who would rather be doing something else. Do you have any evidence that the number of desperate adult actors is especially significant? I think a better angle is to discuss dignity and how porn affects the consumer's own world-view.

vmception 5y ago

On the other hand, I have found it pleasant how reliably non-offensive it is to ask almost any attractive* woman about their subscription content now. It is mostly freemium or they are willing to have an objective conversation about how they’ve been thinking about it. I don’t really think it is different from a parenting perspective. Many of the women** appreciate the approach about their content because the intentions are clearer and they don’t have to guess what a guy thinks about anything while also knowing that guy finds them attractive but isn’t likely going to bother with anything non-consensual or at least not blow up on them on the spot. From what I can tell, many of the women (that I’ve met in person and subsequently asked about their streaming services) were also hostesses and strippers and/or dabbling in modeling and pivoted when the venues weren’t available through the pandemic, something that offered only a slightly greater temporary anonymity and equally outside of the view of protective parents. When the analytics leak from these websites, I bet the demographics data would subvert all assumptions. If enough people do it, the “blackmail” potential from having digital shareable erotic content evaporates. So that should give some peace of mind with this direction of the world. *A consensus-level of visual attraction, as opposed to something more subjective. ie. you can look at someone and guess which ones have been suggested to do content by others, and likely have a following to stay active by the time you showed up **My perspective is only about women and isn’t suggesting that only women are content creators

kreft 5y ago
It's hard to make the argument for the harmlessness of porn when the sight of an attractive woman triggers the thought "I need to ask about their subscription content".
- vmception 5y ago
  I don’t think I made that argument and I didn't mention porn, streamers and content creators have to be interesting To me it’s no different than guessing who was approached about joining a sorority Or who orders pumpkin spice lattes In this reality it doesnt preclude them from doing anything else professionally, simultaneously or in the future. It is true that some people will try to exclude them, it is also true that it becomes more benign the more that other people have potentially revealing content out there I find that reconcilable, and reinforcing that any performer or consumer affects from this kind of labor should be addressed as any other kind of labor

thinkingemote 5y ago

>people are free to do what they'd like Your post seems to suggest you would not be happy for your kids to do what they like when they get older. Often people seem to be happy for other peoples children to do what they like but not theirs. To me this seems like the wrong attitude towards ones neighbours. There's 2 options therefore, for me, if I am honest with my family: disapprove of porn as a life choice or approve and encourage it including for one's own children. I think most parents around the world would choose the first option, but the second is gaining in popularity and acceptability especially in the west.

krzrak 5y ago
> Often people seem to be happy for other peoples children to do what they like but not theirs. To me this seems like the wrong attitude towards ones neighbours. I think you miss the important concept, that people can have different world views and different things might be acceptable to them. So I may not approve my kids/family/myself doing something, living some kind of lifestyle, but I accept that there are people who have different values and it's OK for me (as long as it doesn't infringe my freedom, of course). Otherwise, we have religious fundamentalism.
- MrBuddyCasino 5y ago
  > I accept that there are people who have different values and it's OK for me Your children do not grow up in a vacuum. You as parents have limited influence, the society they grow up in is having at least an equal impact. You cannot successfully transmit values such as "porn is bad" if everyone around you, the media and the teacher in school is telling your kids the opposite. Humans to not get raised and live in isolation or a vacuum, society matters. A lot. > Otherwise, we have religious fundamentalism. If you extrapolate your point of view, hopefully finding that is destined to fail, you will have made the first step in realising why religions exist.
golergka 5y ago
> Often people seem to be happy for other peoples children to do what they like but not theirs. To me this seems like the wrong attitude towards ones neighbours. That strikes me as odd. There are some areas of life that have competition on them. I accept the fact that there are "losers" in life, but I want my kids to be "winners". I love my kids more than I love others, and want better things for them — who wouldn't? (I specifically don't mention porn here, because I don't make a point about porn, but rather about being happy for other children to do something but not mine. Also, I put "winners" and "losers" in quotes because obviously it's a very primitive description of reality, and I actually don't think of sex workers as "losers").

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

draw_down 5y ago
Good luck with that my friend! And don’t let me catch you touting the first amendment in the meantime.

SkyMarshal 5y ago

One thing you can do is use all these things as teaching moments. Teach your children how to recognize all the ways they’re being manipulated, both by media, and in person by other people. Build up their awareness and defenses at an early age, so they’ll be less vulnerable and more prepared when they go out on their own one day. Dark patterns, psychological manipulations, emotions and biases are all things they need to be aware of. Once people are aware of how they’re being manipulated and can recognize it in real-time they’re less likely to fall victim to it. Some resources: [0]:https://www.darkpatterns.org/ https://www.darkpatterns.org/ [1]:https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/49176 https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/49176 (Games People Play) [2]:https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/133203 https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/133203 (Gentle Art of Verbal Self Defense) [3]:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manufacturing_Consent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manufacturing_Consent [4]:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_manipulation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_manipulation [5]:https://fs.blog/great-talks/psychology-human-misjudgment/ https://fs.blog/great-talks/psychology-human-misjudgment/ [6]:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thinking,_Fast_and_Slow https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thinking,_Fast_and_Slow

jeromenerf 5y ago

There is just nothing good to expect from companies that promotes excessive porn, guns, drugs, gambling, meat, soda, … for money. I am far from religious or straight edge, but the ways of debauchery are nothing new or surprising. There is no doubt in anyone’s mind that these are just … debauchery.

standardUser 5y ago

Sex is certainly the most normal thing in the world so I'm not sure we should be fighting against normalizing it. I understand the difference is paid versus non-paid, but in a market-oriented society the realm of "non-paid" is generally very tiny and it's arguable that the two can't really be divided in our current socioeconomic orientation.

ggggtez 5y ago

I think there are risks to doing porn, but even in this article, the issues are not always related to the porn itself, but bad passwords leading to account compromise, or linking your family identity to your porn identity. Understand that "I don't like it" is not a convincing argument to anyone but yourself. Be aware of the consequences, but don't over dramatize it. If you only share the worst case examples, your kids will understand that you are using scare tactics and what you are saying is unlikely. They live in this world and will know plenty of counter examples where nothing bad happened to the person in question. So, be informed, and be reasonable. Express caution, and concern around linking porn to your "real" identity, and the trouble that this causes people. Discuss things protecting your privacy by avoiding showing your face, house, etc. Don't re-use usernames. A person who is informed on the real dangers of how people get found, will be more likely to think twice before posting a nude. And if your children are of the female persuasion, it's worth pointing out that women tend to get the brunt of "punishment", while men often are not really affected. Maybe if your children are male, you might not want to mention that, but it's probably good for you to be aware of it.

nitwit005 5y ago

Is it all that much of a change? If it was a few decades back, they'd be watching TV where the commercial breaks had advertisements for "Girls Gone Wild", and MTV had that show Undressed that was often compared to pornography on late at night. I suppose it's different that "influencers" are pushing it instead of companies, but the basic problems seems fairly similar.

kar5pt 5y ago

This is not new. Internet porn was mainstream when I was in middle/high school in the 00's. Every boy was looking at it and it was way more hard-core than what you see on onlyfans. If anything porn has gotten softer since then.