5 ms·

If you had a significant other with a similar upper middle class wage, e.g., $220k * 2 = $440k you could probably swing it with more breathing room. You are wis

If you had a significant other with a similar upper middle class wage, e.g., $220k * 2 = $440k you could probably swing it with more breathing room. You are wise to avoid the burden, in the chance you technically qualify for the mortgage but barely so in the Bay Area (e.g., leaving you house poor). The fact that home affordability requires a HH income in the top 2-3% is, to put it mildly, highly concerning. It makes the trend of many millennials not trying (a bit of nihilism) seem reasonable. Why aspire for great career success and an above median income, when you can't get much for it? A better life, at that point, is likely to optimize for cheap hobbies and leave the high-pay work stress behind. Honestly, it sounds like a fairly rational decision.

nwatson 5y ago
Or work remotely. One can make way above prevailing local salaries working remotely for SF Bay Area companies.
- jameshush 5y ago
  I'll echo this. The 6-7 years of "California" tech experience pays dividends in other countries. Ended up moving to Taipei so my example is a bit extreme, but I have quite a few friends making "low end" California $100k-120k USD/year wages while living in the middle of nowhere Canada. I still wanted to live in a city, and Taipei has all the amenities Los Angeles or San Francisco had (nice bars, hipster coffee shops, great out doors areas). My friends wanted big wide open space and being close to family in Canada. I was being paid on the "low end" for an engineering manager in California but in the top 1% in Taiwan. For anyone considering trying "location arbitrage", whether that be in a "normal" city in a middle state of the USA, or a more extreme example like myself, I high recommend giving it a shot. You can _always_ move back to SF, LA, NYC, London, Hong Kong etc. The only risk you're making is the slope of your savings account decreasing slightly. Remember, you'll never have _more_ time and _less_ responsibility then right at this moment. You'll only get less time and more responsibility as time passes on.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- chii 5y ago
  I think this cannot last for long - supply and demand would push wages down as more people are available for the position. May be not this year, or next, but the long term trend of work-from-home will make this true.
  - jachee 5y ago
    I’ve been seeing this sentiment since the late 90’s. All signs point to the market staying irrational longer than I stay on the market.
atatatat 5y ago
> upper middle class wage, e.g., $220k Oh, so you live on one of the coasts, then.
- snypher 5y ago
  It would be helpful if you would post a comparison of income vs housing cost in your area. They're replying to someone posting about San Francisco.
- thomasahle 5y ago
  The US: Highest inequality in the Western world. Also the US: Everyone is middle class.
refurb 5y ago
Nothing says you have to buy a house and settle long term in the Bay Area. I’ve know people who get a rent controlled place, work 10 years, sock away $1M+ in savings, then go somewhere cheaper with good schools to have a family. Being able to put away $1M+ in savings by the time your in your early 30’s is huge.
lumost 5y ago
220 is a wage at the upper end of what can be typically made by the time your 30 if you’ve chosen the right careers. There are notable exceptions with recent top tech offers - but I work for a fang as a software engineer and didn’t break 200 take home until I turned 32. If you need 2x those incomes to afford A basic necessity such as housing than we’re likely to have a problem.
- chii 5y ago
  > break 200 take home Does take home mean excluding equity grants? a lot of the compensation from tech firms these days would be some form of equity.
  - lumost 5y ago
    it does not :shrug: EDIT: For more detail, many of the higher comps you hear about for junior engineers come from stock that appreciated much faster than the company intended when they decided your comp. The more Senior roles at most big tech companies also tend to require ~8-10 years of professional experience to be hired externally.
- sakopov 5y ago
  > 220 is a wage at the upper end of what can be typically made by the time your 30 if you’ve chosen the right careers. This is typically true if you work for a fang. These insane salaries rarely exist anywhere else.
  - joshmn 5y ago
    I’ll offer a slight disagreement. They are more common than you think, and you don’t need to be exceptional to receive such a package. Positioning your strengths during negotiation is helpful. Knowing the market and laying out what you (presumably a developer) bring to the table goes a long way.
  - jandrewrogers 5y ago
    It is more common than you might expect across industries if you are good at what you do. I know a biz dev person at a mediocre book publisher that earns that much and they’ve worked remote much of their career.
fragmede 5y ago
The nihilism doesn't make sense from someone making $200k/yr though. If you're in a career with little advancement and making minimum wage then yeah sure, but if you write software at a FAANG, then lets back of the envelope for a second. $200k is like 130k take home pay after taxes, (which is just shy of $11k/month). 20% down on a million dollar house is 200k. If you're able to put $4k/month towards a future down payment, that's 50 months, or just over 4 years. If you were making that when you are 30 years old, if nothing changes from then (which it won't), you can buy a million dollar house before you're 35. If you put it into stocks instead of holding it liquid for those 4 years, then before long term cap gains tax (California and Federal), then you'll need closer to $300k. Which still seems like it should be doable before you're 40. (If you bought AAPL at the height of the 2008 bubble, you'd be doing quite well today.) Does it seem reasonable to me that housing is this expensive in the Bay area? No! Does it seem feasible for someone who's software development career is going well, to be able to afford a house, eventually, if they make that a priority? Quite. There are many directions someone making $200k/yr at 30 can choose to go with their money, and I don't begrudge anyone the agency to make their own decisions. But let's not say that someone making those kinds of wages can't afford a house. They may prefer to use DoorDash for every meal and extravagant vacations instead of buying a home, but people who make less money are forced to make much tougher, more existential choices on how to spend their money.
BTCOG 5y ago
$200k+ yearly salary is in no way at all, middle-class.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- adi4213 5y ago
  Do you mean to say they are > or < than middle-class?
  - ceejayoz 5y ago
    It's 4x the median per capita income in San Fransisco, and double the median household.

nwatson 5y ago

Or work remotely. One can make way above prevailing local salaries working remotely for SF Bay Area companies.

jameshush 5y ago
I'll echo this. The 6-7 years of "California" tech experience pays dividends in other countries. Ended up moving to Taipei so my example is a bit extreme, but I have quite a few friends making "low end" California $100k-120k USD/year wages while living in the middle of nowhere Canada. I still wanted to live in a city, and Taipei has all the amenities Los Angeles or San Francisco had (nice bars, hipster coffee shops, great out doors areas). My friends wanted big wide open space and being close to family in Canada. I was being paid on the "low end" for an engineering manager in California but in the top 1% in Taiwan. For anyone considering trying "location arbitrage", whether that be in a "normal" city in a middle state of the USA, or a more extreme example like myself, I high recommend giving it a shot. You can _always_ move back to SF, LA, NYC, London, Hong Kong etc. The only risk you're making is the slope of your savings account decreasing slightly. Remember, you'll never have _more_ time and _less_ responsibility then right at this moment. You'll only get less time and more responsibility as time passes on.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
chii 5y ago
I think this cannot last for long - supply and demand would push wages down as more people are available for the position. May be not this year, or next, but the long term trend of work-from-home will make this true.
- jachee 5y ago
  I’ve been seeing this sentiment since the late 90’s. All signs point to the market staying irrational longer than I stay on the market.

atatatat 5y ago

> upper middle class wage, e.g., $220k Oh, so you live on one of the coasts, then.

snypher 5y ago
It would be helpful if you would post a comparison of income vs housing cost in your area. They're replying to someone posting about San Francisco.
thomasahle 5y ago
The US: Highest inequality in the Western world. Also the US: Everyone is middle class.

refurb 5y ago

Nothing says you have to buy a house and settle long term in the Bay Area. I’ve know people who get a rent controlled place, work 10 years, sock away $1M+ in savings, then go somewhere cheaper with good schools to have a family. Being able to put away $1M+ in savings by the time your in your early 30’s is huge.

lumost 5y ago

220 is a wage at the upper end of what can be typically made by the time your 30 if you’ve chosen the right careers. There are notable exceptions with recent top tech offers - but I work for a fang as a software engineer and didn’t break 200 take home until I turned 32. If you need 2x those incomes to afford A basic necessity such as housing than we’re likely to have a problem.

chii 5y ago
> break 200 take home Does take home mean excluding equity grants? a lot of the compensation from tech firms these days would be some form of equity.
- lumost 5y ago
  it does not :shrug: EDIT: For more detail, many of the higher comps you hear about for junior engineers come from stock that appreciated much faster than the company intended when they decided your comp. The more Senior roles at most big tech companies also tend to require ~8-10 years of professional experience to be hired externally.
sakopov 5y ago
> 220 is a wage at the upper end of what can be typically made by the time your 30 if you’ve chosen the right careers. This is typically true if you work for a fang. These insane salaries rarely exist anywhere else.
- joshmn 5y ago
  I’ll offer a slight disagreement. They are more common than you think, and you don’t need to be exceptional to receive such a package. Positioning your strengths during negotiation is helpful. Knowing the market and laying out what you (presumably a developer) bring to the table goes a long way.
- jandrewrogers 5y ago
  It is more common than you might expect across industries if you are good at what you do. I know a biz dev person at a mediocre book publisher that earns that much and they’ve worked remote much of their career.

fragmede 5y ago

The nihilism doesn't make sense from someone making $200k/yr though. If you're in a career with little advancement and making minimum wage then yeah sure, but if you write software at a FAANG, then lets back of the envelope for a second. $200k is like 130k take home pay after taxes, (which is just shy of $11k/month). 20% down on a million dollar house is 200k. If you're able to put $4k/month towards a future down payment, that's 50 months, or just over 4 years. If you were making that when you are 30 years old, if nothing changes from then (which it won't), you can buy a million dollar house before you're 35. If you put it into stocks instead of holding it liquid for those 4 years, then before long term cap gains tax (California and Federal), then you'll need closer to $300k. Which still seems like it should be doable before you're 40. (If you bought AAPL at the height of the 2008 bubble, you'd be doing quite well today.) Does it seem reasonable to me that housing is this expensive in the Bay area? No! Does it seem feasible for someone who's software development career is going well, to be able to afford a house, eventually, if they make that a priority? Quite. There are many directions someone making $200k/yr at 30 can choose to go with their money, and I don't begrudge anyone the agency to make their own decisions. But let's not say that someone making those kinds of wages can't afford a house. They may prefer to use DoorDash for every meal and extravagant vacations instead of buying a home, but people who make less money are forced to make much tougher, more existential choices on how to spend their money.

BTCOG 5y ago

$200k+ yearly salary is in no way at all, middle-class.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
adi4213 5y ago
Do you mean to say they are > or < than middle-class?
- ceejayoz 5y ago
  It's 4x the median per capita income in San Fransisco, and double the median household.