4 ms·

How about communist incursion to the West? 100M deaths already caused is much more dangerous than fascism is any its form.

orwin 5y ago
Communism: a theory or system of social organization in which all property is owned by the community and each person contributes and receives according to their ability and needs. You can have productivist communism (marxism of sort) where the mean of production are owned by those who use them. Worker-owned companies and in fact small startups without VC money (those exist) are marxist in nature as long as every new worker is offered a share. I saw an increase in worker-owned companies in my country, and i think it's the same in the US, is this what you mean by communist incursions in the west? Or are you talking about another form of communism (anarchism maybe?) (edit): to be transparent, i'm for a form of communism where the workers own a percentage of a company. whether it's 25%, 49% or 51% is up for debate and i don't care if the percentage is low.
- herbst 5y ago
  It's likely just a blanket term to avoid saying 'the evil (Satanist) left' No idea why people are so fucking afraid of being handled more humanly by their governments. Which is what most modern communist parties in Europe are trying to do.
- justshowpost 5y ago
  I've noticed the attempt to shift the focus to some nice-sounding ideas [of real communism]. Yet, I was talking about the exact tens of communist regimes we've already seen in XX century – neither of them turned workers into shareholders (which itself, ironically, is more specific to fascism than to socialism or communism), but all of them caused oppression, poverty, famines and A LOT of politically motivated killings. So, the comment above emphasizes the dangers of... fascism (at least some mysterious sort of it, since fascism requires industrial workers). > another form of communism (anarchism maybe?) There is no such thing, communist system necessitates a totalitarian state.
  - orwin 5y ago
    > I've noticed the attempt to shift the focus to some nice-sounding ideas [of real communism] Man, i just typed "communism definition" for the first sentence, and i've read Marx (And Hegel, and Adam Smith) for my interpretation of Marxism. And that's true that i pass over the revolutionnary talking points, class war, and violence against property as a mean of expression. I do think they are good points, even if i disagree with Marx interpretation of the French revolution in particular (he constructed is opinion on an already constructed, "false" history), and more generally Marx vision of revolutions is romantic and written within his time. I don't think someone deconstructed Marx yet, but he should be. > neither of them turned workers into shareholders So how to you read "the workers should own their means of production" in the modern time? Do you think it is Fascism? Fascism: https://www.britannica.com/topic/fascism https://www.britannica.com/topic/fascism Nothing to do with workers. "Far-right" ideologies in the 19th/20th century all worked around the same set of idea: * Our nation/ our folks are better than the others (more clever, more hardworking, better history...) * But we're not the best nation/folks in the world * Hence, there is a cabal against us, lead by (the Jews, the French, the colonials powers... ) * To fight them, we need a strong man/leadership. Difference between them are how they are organized. Fascism believe in a strong, central power and a strong hierarchy, strong and hard judiciary system, whereas nazism have a more decentralized vision and liked competition between actors, with less rigid rules. Japan had a bit of both, or rather, was a fascist nation with a stronger separation between civil and military power. Also, you can be fascist and have productive communism. > There is no such thing, communist system necessitates a totalitarian state. Yeah, no. Read Proudhon first, then Bakounine maybe? I think Kropotkin have strong words against Bolcheviks, and someone told me it was a great critic of Bakounine (did not read him yet, i'm into the 1730-1850, especially now that university historians are published and easily accessible)
carbonguy 5y ago
And the death toll of capitalism far exceeds that of communism, so by this metric capitalism must be more dangerous still - right?

orwin 5y ago

Communism: a theory or system of social organization in which all property is owned by the community and each person contributes and receives according to their ability and needs. You can have productivist communism (marxism of sort) where the mean of production are owned by those who use them. Worker-owned companies and in fact small startups without VC money (those exist) are marxist in nature as long as every new worker is offered a share. I saw an increase in worker-owned companies in my country, and i think it's the same in the US, is this what you mean by communist incursions in the west? Or are you talking about another form of communism (anarchism maybe?) (edit): to be transparent, i'm for a form of communism where the workers own a percentage of a company. whether it's 25%, 49% or 51% is up for debate and i don't care if the percentage is low.

herbst 5y ago
It's likely just a blanket term to avoid saying 'the evil (Satanist) left' No idea why people are so fucking afraid of being handled more humanly by their governments. Which is what most modern communist parties in Europe are trying to do.
justshowpost 5y ago
I've noticed the attempt to shift the focus to some nice-sounding ideas [of real communism]. Yet, I was talking about the exact tens of communist regimes we've already seen in XX century – neither of them turned workers into shareholders (which itself, ironically, is more specific to fascism than to socialism or communism), but all of them caused oppression, poverty, famines and A LOT of politically motivated killings. So, the comment above emphasizes the dangers of... fascism (at least some mysterious sort of it, since fascism requires industrial workers). > another form of communism (anarchism maybe?) There is no such thing, communist system necessitates a totalitarian state.
- orwin 5y ago
  > I've noticed the attempt to shift the focus to some nice-sounding ideas [of real communism] Man, i just typed "communism definition" for the first sentence, and i've read Marx (And Hegel, and Adam Smith) for my interpretation of Marxism. And that's true that i pass over the revolutionnary talking points, class war, and violence against property as a mean of expression. I do think they are good points, even if i disagree with Marx interpretation of the French revolution in particular (he constructed is opinion on an already constructed, "false" history), and more generally Marx vision of revolutions is romantic and written within his time. I don't think someone deconstructed Marx yet, but he should be. > neither of them turned workers into shareholders So how to you read "the workers should own their means of production" in the modern time? Do you think it is Fascism? Fascism: https://www.britannica.com/topic/fascism https://www.britannica.com/topic/fascism Nothing to do with workers. "Far-right" ideologies in the 19th/20th century all worked around the same set of idea: * Our nation/ our folks are better than the others (more clever, more hardworking, better history...) * But we're not the best nation/folks in the world * Hence, there is a cabal against us, lead by (the Jews, the French, the colonials powers... ) * To fight them, we need a strong man/leadership. Difference between them are how they are organized. Fascism believe in a strong, central power and a strong hierarchy, strong and hard judiciary system, whereas nazism have a more decentralized vision and liked competition between actors, with less rigid rules. Japan had a bit of both, or rather, was a fascist nation with a stronger separation between civil and military power. Also, you can be fascist and have productive communism. > There is no such thing, communist system necessitates a totalitarian state. Yeah, no. Read Proudhon first, then Bakounine maybe? I think Kropotkin have strong words against Bolcheviks, and someone told me it was a great critic of Bakounine (did not read him yet, i'm into the 1730-1850, especially now that university historians are published and easily accessible)

carbonguy 5y ago

And the death toll of capitalism far exceeds that of communism, so by this metric capitalism must be more dangerous still - right?