20 ms·

My app just got removed with no prior warning

211 points by collaborative 5y ago

gumby 5y ago
Last year Google silently held up one of our apps for over six weeks, not responding to any questions or entreaties. Then one day they approved it. We never heard why.
heavyset_go 5y ago
Consider contacting your state's Attorney General office, and the US Attorney General office. Many states' AG offices have antitrust divisions[1]. The US Dept. of Justice also has an Antitrust Division[2], along with a page that details how and why[3] to get in touch with them: > Information from the public is vital to the work of the Antitrust Division. Your e-mails, letters, and phone calls could be our first alert to a possible violation of antitrust laws and may provide the initial evidence needed to begin an investigation. The FTC has the Bureau of Competition[4], as well. This is a good example of how innovation, competition and small businesses are being stifled by the anticompetitive behavior of the mobile app distribution cartel. [1] https://www.naag.org/issues/antitrust/ https://www.naag.org/issues/antitrust/ [2] https://www.justice.gov/atr https://www.justice.gov/atr [3] https://www.justice.gov/atr/report-violations https://www.justice.gov/atr/report-violations [4] https://www.ftc.gov/about-ftc/bureaus-offices/bureau-competition/about-bureau-competition https://www.ftc.gov/about-ftc/bureaus-offices/bureau-competi...
- collaborative 5y ago
  Thank you I will review all these and submit them if appropriate Do you know if these apply to me? My jurisdiction is the UK, even though I guess the app is distributed globally
  - heavyset_go 5y ago
    In the UK there's the Competition and Markets Authority[1]. I think it's still worth it to file reports or complaints with the US federal government's antitrust divisions for a few reasons: - Multiple bodies of government have been gearing up to take on this issue and issues like it, and any evidence of anticompetitive behavior can be used in investigations, legislation and enforcement of antitrust laws. - While Google is an international company, it's based in the US and if regulators enforce existing antitrust laws in the US, it's more likely that policy will affect how Google does business internationally versus just in the UK. - There are antitrust laws that US-based companies must follow internationally[2], and the FTC is generally the body that enforces those laws. [1] https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/competition-and-markets-authority https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/competition-and-... [2] https://www.natlawreview.com/article/does-what-happens-outside-us-stay-outside-us https://www.natlawreview.com/article/does-what-happens-outsi...
    - collaborative 5y ago
      Thank you. I will dedicate all of tomorrow to this
gmiller123456 5y ago
At least you got an explanation. The last day I ever wrote a line of code for iOS was when I realized they removed my app without notification of any kind, no explanation. I didn't bother asking for an explanation. I was already displeased with Apple's treatment of developers, and it was only from constant requests from friends for some of my apps on iOS that I finally gave in and jumped through all of Apple's hoops like buying a Mac and iPod for development. At least now I can tell them the type of company their giving their money to. Granted Google isn't a lot better. When I first got an Adroid phone one of the first apps I tried to download was a flashlight app. I found it quicker to just write my own than to wade through all of the existing apps that were out right spyware asking for permissions to everything on the phone. So that was my first app added to Google Play. Years later I get notified it's been removed because it didn't have a privacy policy. Yet all of those other "flashlight apps" requiring access to your full browser history, text messages, e-mails, etc. are fine because they have a privacy policy that essentially states their policy is no privacy. By the time that happened, most phones had a built in flashlight app, but I wanted to see what it would take to satisfy Google. Just adding "this app doesn't collect any data" wasn't good enough, it had to be a legaleaze document to guarantee no one would read it. No privacy policy generator I found had a "I don't collect anything" option, so I ended up with one stating I may collect data when I don't.
- collaborative 5y ago
  It's depressing, isn't it? All the hard, honest work doesn't count. Users are hypnotized by these mega corps and will do as told. They will straight up abuse us developers for not measuring up to the insane hoops they make us jump through. Did you see the comments at the top suggesting I siphon sensitive data without the user's consent? Absolute madness If this has changed anything in me is that from now on, I will spend 1,000,000% more effort into advocating users to not use Google Play. No legitimate, long-term app can afford to rely on it As for iOS, we'll have to pray things change because there isn't an an equivalent F-Droid in the Apple world Anyway, it's nearly 2AM, my app is still removed, and I feel I shouldn't be posting this Thanks for sharing
perryizgr8 5y ago
> App stores have reached a size that can now be considered a "para-web". I agree with this statement. Apple app store and Google play store have a near universal monopoly on the software users can install on their phones. Phones must constitute of a large majority of all software that is run by end users. Hence, the usual argument about the stores being a "private platform" do not apply. Google and Apple must treat it as a public square, where everybody has a right to host their apps. If their app is doing something illegal, let the courts sort it out. If managing these stores seems to be an unsustainable task to them, they are free to shut down the stores and let people install whatever software they like on their phones. Unless this happens, the vast majority of the population will never experience the liberty that computers afford.
whoknowswhat11 5y ago
Meanwhile developers complain that the app store cut is too high for small devs. Heads up. If a big tech co is not going to make back money from you - the amount of careful human review by well paid folks is going to be minimal because the scale of cheap / free users is so high.
- BoorishBears 5y ago
  You just tried to call out people complaining about the cut they take right now with the logic that leads to piss poor service (terrible take but let's roll with it) Right now OP is getting piss poor service. So how does A relate to B in the context of this post? You think there's worse than the current 0 percent warning and support they got, or...
  - whoknowswhat11 5y ago
    Would devs do a more standard Sony/Playstation type agreement? Something like maybe $10K per year base, and then extra to get an app certified etc? Similar cut in the end? There are models that allow for better service- problem is they tend to be expensive for smaller devs
    - BoorishBears 5y ago
      I hate when people make comments that assume no one will call them out on obvious BS. I was part of Nintendo's dev program in the Wii days, grand cost was 0 dollars a year. NOA lent us dev kits worth thousands of dollars and we had direct forum access to software developers working for Nintendo. Sony and Microsoft will do similar. You're talking about arrangements where Sony is acting at least in-part as a publisher, not indie titles going up on their shop as is comparable.
- supermatt 5y ago
  And this is EXACTLY why people are fighting against google and apple exclusively controlling the stores on the respective platforms. Edit: yes, i know you can add a 3rd party "store" to android, but it doesnt have the same rights as the google store, and its certainly not a user friendly process.
jrochkind1 5y ago
> App stores should review apps at set frequencies. Developers should know the expected date for their next review so that they can prepare for unexpected consequences that require direct action. I guarantee bad actors would remove unpermitted functionality right before the review, and put it back after. There's a reason even restaurant food safety inspectors don't tell the restaurant when they're coming. But on the other hand, restaurant food safety inspectors do usually give you a chance to correct the violation before shutting you down (depending on severity anyway).
- kwdc 5y ago
  Pardon my ignorance, but doesn't Google/Apple have the ability to examine compiled code as hosted on their servers? This implies Google/Apple themselves can perform static and dynamic analysis at their leisure. There is therefore no concept of "remove just before" or otherwise a form of slight-of-hand. Are we still operating under the illusion that Google/Apple have no capability for having suitable tooling around this? I find it difficult to believe. Especially for finding unofficial api use and similar shenanigans.
  - jrochkind1 5y ago
    The proposal in the OP is again: > App stores should review apps at set frequencies. Developers should know the expected date for their next review so that they can prepare for unexpected consequences that require direct action. So that would introduce the concept of "remove just before", if stores limited review to expected dates, and developers knew the expected date of review.
- rkachowski 5y ago
  > I guarantee bad actors would remove unpermitted functionality right before the review, and put it back after. Outside of a dynamic feature flag setup, this would be trivial to detect as Google and Apple completely control the submission process.
  - candiodari 5y ago
throwaaskjdfh 5y ago
> Are we expected to be available 24/7/365 to act on Google's unforeseeable impulses? Almost all software nowadays involves some back-end with 24/7/365 availability, which means that unplanned outages can occur at any time. It sucks, especially for small or one-person operations, but it's the game many of us are in.
phdelightful 5y ago
The author should consider removing their blog from the Google-owned property they are currently using, lest it also get removed with no prior warning.
- throwaway7721 5y ago
  > The author should consider removing their blog from the Google-owned property they are currently using, lest it also get removed with no prior warning. I don't think Google has a reputation for deleting critical blog posts -- can you reference any stories? Don't get me wrong, there are many reasons to host your own blog. But fear that Google will remove content critical of Google seems pretty far fetched to me. On topic: It seems unfortunate that there is no grace period for the developer to resolve a minor issue like missing links to a privacy policy. disclaimer: I work for Google (on something unrelated).
  - marcosdumay 5y ago
    Once in a while there's something about Google removing critical content from their properties here on HN, but well, there is no public data to make-up one's mind, so everybody just assumes their default instance. Anyway, Google is quite famous for removing all kinds of unrelated things from the people it deemed worth removing something. So, I'd say the odds of the OP's blog being removed is rather high, just not for the reason you assumed it is.
  - collaborative 5y ago
    Yep, unfortunate I usually rank Google higher than Apple in terms of developer friendliness but funny enough something similar happened on my iOS version and Apple did give me the chance to fix it before they took any further action Back when I moved websites I forgot to change the priv. policy's link on their iOS App Store. They pointed this out to me and I immediately fixed it. Fingers crossed that this will be resolved soon
KMnO4 5y ago
I don’t see this as too much an issue. Sure, you have a privacy policy accessible in your app, but A) Google doesn’t know that B) People in the Play store can’t read it before downloading. All Google is asking is that you put the privacy policy in the store page. Seems reasonable.
- lovelearning 5y ago
  > My app correctly offered a privacy policy link in its Google Play listing
- CyberShadow 5y ago
  From the article: > My app correctly offered a privacy policy link in its Google Play listing I think that counts as being able to read it before downloading?
- izacus 5y ago
  Not quite - people could see it on the Play Store and in the app BEFORE login. After data siphoning has started however, the Privacy Policy wasn't available to the users anymore. Which is... funny.
- overgard 5y ago
  I think in any sort of reasonable business model, there would be fore-warning before access is cut off completely. I have no opinions on this app or the validity of the business (either positive or negative), but I think it's worrisome that google or apple can potentially kill your business with no recourse.
malwarebytess 5y ago
> 1) Unexpectedly pulling an app with no warning and then imposing a 7-day review period is not reasonable. OK, my app only has tens of thousands of downloads. No, no. Don't apologize. Would you expect Google to remove twitter's app with no prior notice? How about a U.S. government app? Why should you expect different treatment from Google than Twitter et al.? Google has to provide a consistent and responsive experience for any company who is using their rather monopolistic marketplace to distribute their app. That they don't in all cases should concern even regulators. They can greatly distort the market in undesirable, noncompetitive directions for the economy.
- deregulateMed 5y ago
  Apple does the same, so Google does too. What came first, an Abusive Apple or an Abusive Google? I can't help to think how much better the mobile world would be with Microsoft vs Google. I wonder what would be the great difference? Right now it's Veblen good vs utility. Whatever the case, at least you still can use apk.
- pinkybanana 5y ago
  > Why should you expect different treatment from Google than Twitter et al.? Well, because you aren't twitter. Expecting google to treat indie dev the same as multibillion dollar corporations would be stupid. World isn't fair place and crying after fairness is often waste of time. This kind of blog post might affect the situation and I think it makes sense to make it in polite way. However my default assumption would be that no one inside google will do anything about this, because thats how giant corporations work.
  - cartoonworld 5y ago
    This comment, and the truth within it, causes me to think of Stallman. Aside discoverability, usability and the messaging problem of selling libre software to Mom, proprietary software and walled gardens will just do this to people. At this time in history there is not really a viable option to access the huge market of app stores with de facto monopolies of the app ecosystem aside from hoping some multinational corporation won't capriciously squash your vulnerable sapling beneath its crocs or birkenstock on its way to exercise some stock options. The app developers are barely a blip on corporate radars, they don't see 10k users of an app as valuable at all--but this person sure does! Javier probably feels this as much as google, apple, etc would an antitrust suit. Probably more, as unlike them, he has not prepared a multi-million dollar legal defense. Even though F-Droid is available and those apps are usable and often very good, individuals are basically beholden to this garbage! Of course he doesn't expect to be treated fairly, this blog concludes that it is unreasonable to yank his side project app and that he has no recourse because of the way that the app ecosystem is. I don't know how these state of affairs can be improved, quickly, but I hope it is possible.
gameswithgo 5y ago
A lot of hackernews seems really dedicated to the idea that Google and Apple should decide what software we get to make and sell. Why are people so gung ho to be under the corporate boot like this?
- heavyset_go 5y ago
  Some are direct, or indirect, shareholders, or stand to own shares in the future.
- jonnycomputer 5y ago
  Maybe some of them are invested in the status quo.
- rchaud 5y ago
  A lot of people agreed with that Steve Jobs letter about Flash in 2010. Some of that feeling may still linger. In retrospect, that darn letter and the usual Jobs media fawning was probably the first domino that led to the web being completely marginalized on iOS in favour of Apple-approved apps.
  - ehutch79 5y ago
    flash is not the open web. it was a proprietary plugin.
    - rchaud 5y ago
      Didn't say it was the open web. The web in general wasn't all that open. You couldn't run Netflix on your PC without a Microsoft Silverlight plugin. Today, it's Widevine for Android. Both proprietary and closed source. Adobe made Flash plugins available for iOS, Android, WebOS and Blackberry. There was none of the anti-competitive moat building that Apple and Google engaged in to win the app war and squeeze out every other vendor. The death of Flash meant that there was no universal, un-walled app store that was OS-agnostic.
gallego2007 5y ago
Was the Privacy Policy linked on the Play Store listing description as well? IIRC, there was a recent change in the last 12 months or so to require a link to the privacy policy on the listing. You should be able to file an appeal and get it reinstated using this form: https://support.google.com/googleplay/android-developer/answer/2477981?hl=en#zippy=%2Cremovals https://support.google.com/googleplay/android-developer/answ...
- collaborative 5y ago
  Yes, it was I will wait for the re-submission to go through (up to 7 days) before I file an appeal. I know it's crazy long but better to follow due process
specialist 5y ago
Convert these private markets into open markets. Tort, fair and impartial judiciary, right to sue, transparency and accountability, etc. Reforming (reinventing) these private markets is notably absent from the current efforts to reign in Big Tech. A weird omission.
- throwaway7112 5y ago
  > Convert these private markets into open markets. > Tort, fair and impartial judiciary, right to sue, transparency and accountability, etc. Getting more lawyers involved might make things more fair. It'll definitely take longer than 7 days, and certainly cost a LOT more! :D
Wonnk13 5y ago
Does anyone have advice on how to safely "decouple" your personal @gmail.com account from your Android and GCP developer account? I'd like to delete my GCP and Android developer account, but I'm worried the process will inadvertently delete my personal gmail as well. Shame on me for using it to login in to these types of accounts in the first place :(
- peteretep 5y ago
  The best time to have your email on a personal domain was ten years ago, the second best time is now. Trivial to register a domain, setup Fastmail, and then download all your Gmail one-off and then ongoing. Over the next year or two, correct the email address people have.
- wayneftw 5y ago
  I used my personal email to create an Apple Developer account. Then, when I stopped paying for that account - I was unable to use the free level Apple Developer services. So now, I would have to setup a whole other Apple ID and configure that in XCode, Expo, etc. in order to just install a program on my own device. I contacted Apple about this a few times but nobody I was able to get in contact with was able to help me and I don't even think they understood the issue to begin with.
px43 5y ago
Are we expected to sympathize with an app that's siphoning off sensitive user data from phones without informing the user? Seems shady. Your main website says: * Data is never kept online * No ads, no affiliate marketers, and no creepy tracking * No phone number is required; No need to share your phone book. Only need an email address (can be masked) But your privacy policy says: * For a better experience while using our Service, we may require you to provide us with certain personally identifiable information, including but not limited to your name and email address. * We may employ third-party companies and individuals * We want to inform our Service users that these third parties have access to your Personal Information. Kind of ridiculous IMO that you can get away with doing that just by adding an additional link in your app.
- VLM 5y ago
  OP will have to speak for themselves, but the policy looks like boilerplate I've had to include for 3rd party crash reporting services. So if the stack trace for a null pointer somehow vaguely includes some kind of PII as a side effect of reporting the crash, the privacy policy needs to cover their behind.
- collaborative 5y ago
  You are not required :) *Data is never kept online -》 this is written next to the E2EE chat, not user accounts. E2EE msg data is not kept online I don't employ any 3rd parties, but included that just in case. It is a word-for-word copy of a sentence in ProtonMail's privacy policy The email address can be masked and the name and surname can be made up or left blank
  - lmkg 5y ago
    Can you guarantee that you are handling data the way that ProtonMail does? Do you know how ProtonMail handles its data? A privacy policy is not just some mumbo-jumbo where you just need to get the words right. The words need to be in correspondence with your actions. Copying someone else's words is not a recipe for success because those words are in accordance with their actions. Even if the privacy policy is compliant for them, the same policy can be non-compliant for you.
cool_dude85 5y ago
>I agree that it should always be accessible (which it is via the "website" button) Smells fishy to me. What if I include a link to google.com, where the user can just google AppName + "privacy policy" to find the policy? How far can you be removed from a link to the policy and still be ok?
tacker2000 5y ago
People need to realize that these walled garden lock ins are the worst thing ever in our industry. To be honest, I would think twice nowadays if I wanted to do invest my precious life in developing an iOS app and have my income derived from that. If the gatekeeper is unhappy, they can kill my livelihood without any recourse. Same thing is happening in the ecommerce space with Amazon: they can ban your seller account without any reason and you lose all the revenue and your funds get frozen. Shoot first, ask questions later. Thats whats going on here and threatening good businesses and individuals who have invested time and money into these platforms. So if you think that these monopoly platforms should not be regulated properly, think about these scenarios. And Im not buying the “security” argument that always gets thrown around.
- heavyset_go 5y ago
  > To be honest, I would think twice nowadays if I wanted to do invest my precious life in developing an iOS app and have my income derived from that. If the gatekeeper is unhappy, they can kill my livelihood without any recourse. Don't worry, Apple has predicted your concerns, and has made sure that PWAs can't implement basic functionality[1] that native apps can. You're practically forced to write native apps for mobile users because of it. But I am in the same boat. I have several open source macOS apps that the gatekeeper is making difficult to distribute without paying a $100 a year Apple tax. If you don't pay the Apple tax, then macOS treats your app as if it's radioactive, and refuses to run it unless users know how to perform a magic ritual that bypasses Gatekeeper. There are iOS and Android apps that I'd like to develop, but I'm not going to bother for two reasons. The first is that the App Store and the Play Store have encouraged a race to the bottom for mobile app pricing, and consumers expect apps to either be free or costs a dollar or two. The mobile app store distribution model has broken the paid upgrade model for apps, the same payment model that is alive and well on desktops. The second reason is that Apple or Google are capricious, and my potential mobile app can only exist at their whims. There is also no guarantee that either company won't rip off the apps, either. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26520148 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26520148
- jonnycomputer 5y ago
  That's right. Just one more reason to break them up. I'm certain I'll get people who disagree, or say that it won't do any good. But I disagree. These companies are too big, too powerful. Break them up.
IfOnlyYouKnew 5y ago
As a user, I wouldn’t want Google to continue to distribute an app that doesn’t fulfill all their privacy requirements. As a developer, it’s mildly annoying to have to resubmit. But it’s not exactly the end of the world, is it? I’m reasonably certain the app stores as middlemen have made life easier for small developers by several orders of magnitude. And part of the reason is that customers trust them. Being rather strict, including measures that may seem harsh to you, the developer, who knows you are a decent person, is probably unavoidable to keep the customers’ trust.
- collaborative 5y ago
  As I mentioned there should be a warning before a removal, or alternatively resubmitting shouldn't take up to 7 days. I fear having upset many users :-( I woke up at 7AM this morning to an "App removed" alert
ashtonkem 5y ago
My general take on Google is not that their policies are bad, but that they’re arbitrarily applied with very little recourse for redress. It is incredibly common for people to have issues with Google products that are only resolved by getting ahold of someone on Twitter. CPGGrey getting banned by YT for impersonating himself comes to mind.
- foobarbecue 5y ago
  CGP Grey
joelbondurant 5y ago
What else do you expect from companies in tyrannical communist dictatorships like California?
atum47 5y ago
They took our 3 games I had published with them. It sucks. I think I'm not up to date with their new AD api or my games were not configured to properly display ads for people below 13 years of age. This whole thing happened exactly when my old computer failed (my developer key and projects are there in this computer, which I cannot access right now).
orkohunter 5y ago
This is jeopardising startups a lot.
smackeyacky 5y ago
Its a good idea to offer an alternative download for your app on your website for authenticated users. The users will have to uninstall the app to side load your private version but with a small user base this is manageable. I got caught a bit last year when I released a version that had a terrible bug in it, then google play were taking 7 days to review apps due to covid. I wish there was a way to make your private app the same as the google play app so it didn't require uninstallation despite being signed with the same key, but that results in an installation error. I am sure google have some handwavy security fable around why this doesn't work, but their processes can be a massive risk to your business and you need to manage it somehow, so uninstall and sideload is unfortunately all that is possible.
overgard 5y ago
> 2) App stores have reached a size that can now be considered a "para-web". The 2 companies that police them (Google and Apple) don't have the resources to offer a solid experience for neither users nor developers. Of course they have the resources, it would just cut into their margin. This is a case where I think only regulatory action works; either that or app stores need to take a back seat rather than being a primary part of the os. If you think about the amount of control that an app store affords you, I think most of these companies would be happy to run an app store even at a loss. What I don't think is reasonable is the amount of anti-competitive leverage it gives them. I don't think it's in any sense safe to start a business that depends on these platforms, even if it can work most of the time. I think that's a case where regulation really is reasonable.
rchaud 5y ago
"Now available on the App Store and Google Play" I first heard those words on a TV commercial sometime in 2010. For the decade prior, it would have been "visit site dot com to learn more". Since 2010 I wonder how many hours worth of ads have aired that drill into consumers' heads the idea that applications live exclusively on app stores. The web may as well not exist, because it's outside the walled garden.
howolduis 5y ago
why were you collecting private data without notifying the user? some severe violations like this prompt immediate removal imo
- collaborative 5y ago
  I wasn't All data collected (email address which can be masked and name and surname which can be made up) was properly stated in the privacy policy
otrahuevada 5y ago
Just wantend to ask, in light of Google pulling an Apple in a couple months and preventing users from installing random APKs, is anyone working on a sideloading mechanism of some sort? I'd like my apps to remain out of their capricious, purposefully labyrinthic and failure prone stewardship for as long as possible
- p_j_w 5y ago
  >Google pulling an Apple in a couple months and preventing users from installing random APKs This is the first I've heard of this, unless you're confusing this with the idea of them requiring developers to upload Android App Bundles instead of APKs to the store. Do you have a source?
  - otrahuevada 5y ago
    Can Android App Bundles be installed unsigned? And are they not the official standard from here onwards?
    - p_j_w 5y ago
      I don't have a very in-depth knowledge of Android App Bundles, but my impression was that the developer is that the developer uploads the AAB and Google generates an APK from it and delivers that to the user. From what I recall, there was never an announcement that sideloading APKs was going away.
shp0ngle 5y ago
A bit tangential, but I cannot figure out what does the OP app actually do https://www.groupsapp.online https://www.groupsapp.online Is it for E2EE chat? For shared diagrams? For shared calendar? It seem to do everything, including... turning B&W photos into colors? Cannot figure this out.
- collaborative 5y ago
  I often wish I could just maintain a couple dozen apps that do very specific things instead of one. I am quite certain it would also be way more profitable. People are quite ok with paying $1 for single use things, like zipping files or turning B&W pictures to color But maintaining any app on the app store is so time consuming that I just don't have the time for it Regarding your question, the app's main purpose is to work collaboratively on shared organigrams and family trees. It also includes an E2EE chat that I developed purely as a hobby (no chance competing against Whatsapp or Signal). That is the free bit I monetize by offering optional features like shared calendars, document drives and cloud photo galleries. Apologies if the app's purpose isn't clear and thanks for the hint seems I might need to simplify)
yawaworht1978 5y ago
We have approached a technology evolution segment where Facebook pages replace small business websites as discoverability is simply better than on own blog as small players are SEO handy capped. Same goes for devs with indie games,they need to be on high traffic platforms to survive. YouTube videos as well. The above-mentioned are fb, google and apple, they can all cut you off the platform with almost no way to speak to a human for case review. The e commerce platforms have a bit less of an irreversible way of doing things and you can get hold of human support. I am not sure what is the right way to go on about, but maybe force some companies to offer human operated support?
- tacker2000 5y ago
  You might get human support in ecommerce but most of the time they cant help you and keep sending you the same bullshit emails requiring you to send in a “plan of action”, which doesnt make any sense when you don’t really know why you got banned.

211 points by collaborative 5y ago

Last year Google silently held up one of our apps for over six weeks, not responding to any questions or entreaties. Then one day they approved it. We never heard why.

heavyset_go 5y ago

Consider contacting your state's Attorney General office, and the US Attorney General office. Many states' AG offices have antitrust divisions[1]. The US Dept. of Justice also has an Antitrust Division[2], along with a page that details how and why[3] to get in touch with them: > Information from the public is vital to the work of the Antitrust Division. Your e-mails, letters, and phone calls could be our first alert to a possible violation of antitrust laws and may provide the initial evidence needed to begin an investigation. The FTC has the Bureau of Competition[4], as well. This is a good example of how innovation, competition and small businesses are being stifled by the anticompetitive behavior of the mobile app distribution cartel. [1] https://www.naag.org/issues/antitrust/ https://www.naag.org/issues/antitrust/ [2] https://www.justice.gov/atr https://www.justice.gov/atr [3] https://www.justice.gov/atr/report-violations https://www.justice.gov/atr/report-violations [4] https://www.ftc.gov/about-ftc/bureaus-offices/bureau-competition/about-bureau-competition https://www.ftc.gov/about-ftc/bureaus-offices/bureau-competi...

collaborative 5y ago
Thank you I will review all these and submit them if appropriate Do you know if these apply to me? My jurisdiction is the UK, even though I guess the app is distributed globally
- heavyset_go 5y ago
  In the UK there's the Competition and Markets Authority[1]. I think it's still worth it to file reports or complaints with the US federal government's antitrust divisions for a few reasons: - Multiple bodies of government have been gearing up to take on this issue and issues like it, and any evidence of anticompetitive behavior can be used in investigations, legislation and enforcement of antitrust laws. - While Google is an international company, it's based in the US and if regulators enforce existing antitrust laws in the US, it's more likely that policy will affect how Google does business internationally versus just in the UK. - There are antitrust laws that US-based companies must follow internationally[2], and the FTC is generally the body that enforces those laws. [1] https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/competition-and-markets-authority https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/competition-and-... [2] https://www.natlawreview.com/article/does-what-happens-outside-us-stay-outside-us https://www.natlawreview.com/article/does-what-happens-outsi...
  - collaborative 5y ago
    Thank you. I will dedicate all of tomorrow to this

gmiller123456 5y ago

At least you got an explanation. The last day I ever wrote a line of code for iOS was when I realized they removed my app without notification of any kind, no explanation. I didn't bother asking for an explanation. I was already displeased with Apple's treatment of developers, and it was only from constant requests from friends for some of my apps on iOS that I finally gave in and jumped through all of Apple's hoops like buying a Mac and iPod for development. At least now I can tell them the type of company their giving their money to. Granted Google isn't a lot better. When I first got an Adroid phone one of the first apps I tried to download was a flashlight app. I found it quicker to just write my own than to wade through all of the existing apps that were out right spyware asking for permissions to everything on the phone. So that was my first app added to Google Play. Years later I get notified it's been removed because it didn't have a privacy policy. Yet all of those other "flashlight apps" requiring access to your full browser history, text messages, e-mails, etc. are fine because they have a privacy policy that essentially states their policy is no privacy. By the time that happened, most phones had a built in flashlight app, but I wanted to see what it would take to satisfy Google. Just adding "this app doesn't collect any data" wasn't good enough, it had to be a legaleaze document to guarantee no one would read it. No privacy policy generator I found had a "I don't collect anything" option, so I ended up with one stating I may collect data when I don't.

collaborative 5y ago
It's depressing, isn't it? All the hard, honest work doesn't count. Users are hypnotized by these mega corps and will do as told. They will straight up abuse us developers for not measuring up to the insane hoops they make us jump through. Did you see the comments at the top suggesting I siphon sensitive data without the user's consent? Absolute madness If this has changed anything in me is that from now on, I will spend 1,000,000% more effort into advocating users to not use Google Play. No legitimate, long-term app can afford to rely on it As for iOS, we'll have to pray things change because there isn't an an equivalent F-Droid in the Apple world Anyway, it's nearly 2AM, my app is still removed, and I feel I shouldn't be posting this Thanks for sharing

perryizgr8 5y ago

> App stores have reached a size that can now be considered a "para-web". I agree with this statement. Apple app store and Google play store have a near universal monopoly on the software users can install on their phones. Phones must constitute of a large majority of all software that is run by end users. Hence, the usual argument about the stores being a "private platform" do not apply. Google and Apple must treat it as a public square, where everybody has a right to host their apps. If their app is doing something illegal, let the courts sort it out. If managing these stores seems to be an unsustainable task to them, they are free to shut down the stores and let people install whatever software they like on their phones. Unless this happens, the vast majority of the population will never experience the liberty that computers afford.

whoknowswhat11 5y ago

Meanwhile developers complain that the app store cut is too high for small devs. Heads up. If a big tech co is not going to make back money from you - the amount of careful human review by well paid folks is going to be minimal because the scale of cheap / free users is so high.

BoorishBears 5y ago
You just tried to call out people complaining about the cut they take right now with the logic that leads to piss poor service (terrible take but let's roll with it) Right now OP is getting piss poor service. So how does A relate to B in the context of this post? You think there's worse than the current 0 percent warning and support they got, or...
- whoknowswhat11 5y ago
  Would devs do a more standard Sony/Playstation type agreement? Something like maybe $10K per year base, and then extra to get an app certified etc? Similar cut in the end? There are models that allow for better service- problem is they tend to be expensive for smaller devs
  - BoorishBears 5y ago
    I hate when people make comments that assume no one will call them out on obvious BS. I was part of Nintendo's dev program in the Wii days, grand cost was 0 dollars a year. NOA lent us dev kits worth thousands of dollars and we had direct forum access to software developers working for Nintendo. Sony and Microsoft will do similar. You're talking about arrangements where Sony is acting at least in-part as a publisher, not indie titles going up on their shop as is comparable.
supermatt 5y ago
And this is EXACTLY why people are fighting against google and apple exclusively controlling the stores on the respective platforms. Edit: yes, i know you can add a 3rd party "store" to android, but it doesnt have the same rights as the google store, and its certainly not a user friendly process.

jrochkind1 5y ago

> App stores should review apps at set frequencies. Developers should know the expected date for their next review so that they can prepare for unexpected consequences that require direct action. I guarantee bad actors would remove unpermitted functionality right before the review, and put it back after. There's a reason even restaurant food safety inspectors don't tell the restaurant when they're coming. But on the other hand, restaurant food safety inspectors do usually give you a chance to correct the violation before shutting you down (depending on severity anyway).

kwdc 5y ago
Pardon my ignorance, but doesn't Google/Apple have the ability to examine compiled code as hosted on their servers? This implies Google/Apple themselves can perform static and dynamic analysis at their leisure. There is therefore no concept of "remove just before" or otherwise a form of slight-of-hand. Are we still operating under the illusion that Google/Apple have no capability for having suitable tooling around this? I find it difficult to believe. Especially for finding unofficial api use and similar shenanigans.
- jrochkind1 5y ago
  The proposal in the OP is again: > App stores should review apps at set frequencies. Developers should know the expected date for their next review so that they can prepare for unexpected consequences that require direct action. So that would introduce the concept of "remove just before", if stores limited review to expected dates, and developers knew the expected date of review.
rkachowski 5y ago
> I guarantee bad actors would remove unpermitted functionality right before the review, and put it back after. Outside of a dynamic feature flag setup, this would be trivial to detect as Google and Apple completely control the submission process.
- candiodari 5y ago

throwaaskjdfh 5y ago

> Are we expected to be available 24/7/365 to act on Google's unforeseeable impulses? Almost all software nowadays involves some back-end with 24/7/365 availability, which means that unplanned outages can occur at any time. It sucks, especially for small or one-person operations, but it's the game many of us are in.

phdelightful 5y ago

The author should consider removing their blog from the Google-owned property they are currently using, lest it also get removed with no prior warning.

throwaway7721 5y ago
> The author should consider removing their blog from the Google-owned property they are currently using, lest it also get removed with no prior warning. I don't think Google has a reputation for deleting critical blog posts -- can you reference any stories? Don't get me wrong, there are many reasons to host your own blog. But fear that Google will remove content critical of Google seems pretty far fetched to me. On topic: It seems unfortunate that there is no grace period for the developer to resolve a minor issue like missing links to a privacy policy. disclaimer: I work for Google (on something unrelated).
- marcosdumay 5y ago
  Once in a while there's something about Google removing critical content from their properties here on HN, but well, there is no public data to make-up one's mind, so everybody just assumes their default instance. Anyway, Google is quite famous for removing all kinds of unrelated things from the people it deemed worth removing something. So, I'd say the odds of the OP's blog being removed is rather high, just not for the reason you assumed it is.
- collaborative 5y ago
  Yep, unfortunate I usually rank Google higher than Apple in terms of developer friendliness but funny enough something similar happened on my iOS version and Apple did give me the chance to fix it before they took any further action Back when I moved websites I forgot to change the priv. policy's link on their iOS App Store. They pointed this out to me and I immediately fixed it. Fingers crossed that this will be resolved soon

KMnO4 5y ago

I don’t see this as too much an issue. Sure, you have a privacy policy accessible in your app, but A) Google doesn’t know that B) People in the Play store can’t read it before downloading. All Google is asking is that you put the privacy policy in the store page. Seems reasonable.

lovelearning 5y ago
> My app correctly offered a privacy policy link in its Google Play listing
CyberShadow 5y ago
From the article: > My app correctly offered a privacy policy link in its Google Play listing I think that counts as being able to read it before downloading?
izacus 5y ago
Not quite - people could see it on the Play Store and in the app BEFORE login. After data siphoning has started however, the Privacy Policy wasn't available to the users anymore. Which is... funny.
overgard 5y ago
I think in any sort of reasonable business model, there would be fore-warning before access is cut off completely. I have no opinions on this app or the validity of the business (either positive or negative), but I think it's worrisome that google or apple can potentially kill your business with no recourse.

malwarebytess 5y ago

> 1) Unexpectedly pulling an app with no warning and then imposing a 7-day review period is not reasonable. OK, my app only has tens of thousands of downloads. No, no. Don't apologize. Would you expect Google to remove twitter's app with no prior notice? How about a U.S. government app? Why should you expect different treatment from Google than Twitter et al.? Google has to provide a consistent and responsive experience for any company who is using their rather monopolistic marketplace to distribute their app. That they don't in all cases should concern even regulators. They can greatly distort the market in undesirable, noncompetitive directions for the economy.

deregulateMed 5y ago
Apple does the same, so Google does too. What came first, an Abusive Apple or an Abusive Google? I can't help to think how much better the mobile world would be with Microsoft vs Google. I wonder what would be the great difference? Right now it's Veblen good vs utility. Whatever the case, at least you still can use apk.
pinkybanana 5y ago
> Why should you expect different treatment from Google than Twitter et al.? Well, because you aren't twitter. Expecting google to treat indie dev the same as multibillion dollar corporations would be stupid. World isn't fair place and crying after fairness is often waste of time. This kind of blog post might affect the situation and I think it makes sense to make it in polite way. However my default assumption would be that no one inside google will do anything about this, because thats how giant corporations work.
- cartoonworld 5y ago
  This comment, and the truth within it, causes me to think of Stallman. Aside discoverability, usability and the messaging problem of selling libre software to Mom, proprietary software and walled gardens will just do this to people. At this time in history there is not really a viable option to access the huge market of app stores with de facto monopolies of the app ecosystem aside from hoping some multinational corporation won't capriciously squash your vulnerable sapling beneath its crocs or birkenstock on its way to exercise some stock options. The app developers are barely a blip on corporate radars, they don't see 10k users of an app as valuable at all--but this person sure does! Javier probably feels this as much as google, apple, etc would an antitrust suit. Probably more, as unlike them, he has not prepared a multi-million dollar legal defense. Even though F-Droid is available and those apps are usable and often very good, individuals are basically beholden to this garbage! Of course he doesn't expect to be treated fairly, this blog concludes that it is unreasonable to yank his side project app and that he has no recourse because of the way that the app ecosystem is. I don't know how these state of affairs can be improved, quickly, but I hope it is possible.

gameswithgo 5y ago

A lot of hackernews seems really dedicated to the idea that Google and Apple should decide what software we get to make and sell. Why are people so gung ho to be under the corporate boot like this?

heavyset_go 5y ago
Some are direct, or indirect, shareholders, or stand to own shares in the future.
jonnycomputer 5y ago
Maybe some of them are invested in the status quo.
rchaud 5y ago
A lot of people agreed with that Steve Jobs letter about Flash in 2010. Some of that feeling may still linger. In retrospect, that darn letter and the usual Jobs media fawning was probably the first domino that led to the web being completely marginalized on iOS in favour of Apple-approved apps.
- ehutch79 5y ago
  flash is not the open web. it was a proprietary plugin.
  - rchaud 5y ago
    Didn't say it was the open web. The web in general wasn't all that open. You couldn't run Netflix on your PC without a Microsoft Silverlight plugin. Today, it's Widevine for Android. Both proprietary and closed source. Adobe made Flash plugins available for iOS, Android, WebOS and Blackberry. There was none of the anti-competitive moat building that Apple and Google engaged in to win the app war and squeeze out every other vendor. The death of Flash meant that there was no universal, un-walled app store that was OS-agnostic.

gallego2007 5y ago

Was the Privacy Policy linked on the Play Store listing description as well? IIRC, there was a recent change in the last 12 months or so to require a link to the privacy policy on the listing. You should be able to file an appeal and get it reinstated using this form: https://support.google.com/googleplay/android-developer/answer/2477981?hl=en#zippy=%2Cremovals https://support.google.com/googleplay/android-developer/answ...

collaborative 5y ago
Yes, it was I will wait for the re-submission to go through (up to 7 days) before I file an appeal. I know it's crazy long but better to follow due process

specialist 5y ago

Convert these private markets into open markets. Tort, fair and impartial judiciary, right to sue, transparency and accountability, etc. Reforming (reinventing) these private markets is notably absent from the current efforts to reign in Big Tech. A weird omission.

throwaway7112 5y ago
> Convert these private markets into open markets. > Tort, fair and impartial judiciary, right to sue, transparency and accountability, etc. Getting more lawyers involved might make things more fair. It'll definitely take longer than 7 days, and certainly cost a LOT more! :D

Wonnk13 5y ago

Does anyone have advice on how to safely "decouple" your personal @gmail.com account from your Android and GCP developer account? I'd like to delete my GCP and Android developer account, but I'm worried the process will inadvertently delete my personal gmail as well. Shame on me for using it to login in to these types of accounts in the first place :(

peteretep 5y ago
The best time to have your email on a personal domain was ten years ago, the second best time is now. Trivial to register a domain, setup Fastmail, and then download all your Gmail one-off and then ongoing. Over the next year or two, correct the email address people have.
wayneftw 5y ago
I used my personal email to create an Apple Developer account. Then, when I stopped paying for that account - I was unable to use the free level Apple Developer services. So now, I would have to setup a whole other Apple ID and configure that in XCode, Expo, etc. in order to just install a program on my own device. I contacted Apple about this a few times but nobody I was able to get in contact with was able to help me and I don't even think they understood the issue to begin with.

px43 5y ago

Are we expected to sympathize with an app that's siphoning off sensitive user data from phones without informing the user? Seems shady. Your main website says: * Data is never kept online * No ads, no affiliate marketers, and no creepy tracking * No phone number is required; No need to share your phone book. Only need an email address (can be masked) But your privacy policy says: * For a better experience while using our Service, we may require you to provide us with certain personally identifiable information, including but not limited to your name and email address. * We may employ third-party companies and individuals * We want to inform our Service users that these third parties have access to your Personal Information. Kind of ridiculous IMO that you can get away with doing that just by adding an additional link in your app.

VLM 5y ago
OP will have to speak for themselves, but the policy looks like boilerplate I've had to include for 3rd party crash reporting services. So if the stack trace for a null pointer somehow vaguely includes some kind of PII as a side effect of reporting the crash, the privacy policy needs to cover their behind.
collaborative 5y ago
You are not required :) *Data is never kept online -》 this is written next to the E2EE chat, not user accounts. E2EE msg data is not kept online I don't employ any 3rd parties, but included that just in case. It is a word-for-word copy of a sentence in ProtonMail's privacy policy The email address can be masked and the name and surname can be made up or left blank
- lmkg 5y ago
  Can you guarantee that you are handling data the way that ProtonMail does? Do you know how ProtonMail handles its data? A privacy policy is not just some mumbo-jumbo where you just need to get the words right. The words need to be in correspondence with your actions. Copying someone else's words is not a recipe for success because those words are in accordance with their actions. Even if the privacy policy is compliant for them, the same policy can be non-compliant for you.

cool_dude85 5y ago

>I agree that it should always be accessible (which it is via the "website" button) Smells fishy to me. What if I include a link to google.com, where the user can just google AppName + "privacy policy" to find the policy? How far can you be removed from a link to the policy and still be ok?

tacker2000 5y ago

People need to realize that these walled garden lock ins are the worst thing ever in our industry. To be honest, I would think twice nowadays if I wanted to do invest my precious life in developing an iOS app and have my income derived from that. If the gatekeeper is unhappy, they can kill my livelihood without any recourse. Same thing is happening in the ecommerce space with Amazon: they can ban your seller account without any reason and you lose all the revenue and your funds get frozen. Shoot first, ask questions later. Thats whats going on here and threatening good businesses and individuals who have invested time and money into these platforms. So if you think that these monopoly platforms should not be regulated properly, think about these scenarios. And Im not buying the “security” argument that always gets thrown around.

heavyset_go 5y ago
> To be honest, I would think twice nowadays if I wanted to do invest my precious life in developing an iOS app and have my income derived from that. If the gatekeeper is unhappy, they can kill my livelihood without any recourse. Don't worry, Apple has predicted your concerns, and has made sure that PWAs can't implement basic functionality[1] that native apps can. You're practically forced to write native apps for mobile users because of it. But I am in the same boat. I have several open source macOS apps that the gatekeeper is making difficult to distribute without paying a $100 a year Apple tax. If you don't pay the Apple tax, then macOS treats your app as if it's radioactive, and refuses to run it unless users know how to perform a magic ritual that bypasses Gatekeeper. There are iOS and Android apps that I'd like to develop, but I'm not going to bother for two reasons. The first is that the App Store and the Play Store have encouraged a race to the bottom for mobile app pricing, and consumers expect apps to either be free or costs a dollar or two. The mobile app store distribution model has broken the paid upgrade model for apps, the same payment model that is alive and well on desktops. The second reason is that Apple or Google are capricious, and my potential mobile app can only exist at their whims. There is also no guarantee that either company won't rip off the apps, either. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26520148 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26520148
jonnycomputer 5y ago
That's right. Just one more reason to break them up. I'm certain I'll get people who disagree, or say that it won't do any good. But I disagree. These companies are too big, too powerful. Break them up.

IfOnlyYouKnew 5y ago

As a user, I wouldn’t want Google to continue to distribute an app that doesn’t fulfill all their privacy requirements. As a developer, it’s mildly annoying to have to resubmit. But it’s not exactly the end of the world, is it? I’m reasonably certain the app stores as middlemen have made life easier for small developers by several orders of magnitude. And part of the reason is that customers trust them. Being rather strict, including measures that may seem harsh to you, the developer, who knows you are a decent person, is probably unavoidable to keep the customers’ trust.

collaborative 5y ago
As I mentioned there should be a warning before a removal, or alternatively resubmitting shouldn't take up to 7 days. I fear having upset many users :-( I woke up at 7AM this morning to an "App removed" alert

ashtonkem 5y ago

My general take on Google is not that their policies are bad, but that they’re arbitrarily applied with very little recourse for redress. It is incredibly common for people to have issues with Google products that are only resolved by getting ahold of someone on Twitter. CPGGrey getting banned by YT for impersonating himself comes to mind.

foobarbecue 5y ago
CGP Grey

joelbondurant 5y ago

What else do you expect from companies in tyrannical communist dictatorships like California?

atum47 5y ago

They took our 3 games I had published with them. It sucks. I think I'm not up to date with their new AD api or my games were not configured to properly display ads for people below 13 years of age. This whole thing happened exactly when my old computer failed (my developer key and projects are there in this computer, which I cannot access right now).

orkohunter 5y ago

This is jeopardising startups a lot.

smackeyacky 5y ago

Its a good idea to offer an alternative download for your app on your website for authenticated users. The users will have to uninstall the app to side load your private version but with a small user base this is manageable. I got caught a bit last year when I released a version that had a terrible bug in it, then google play were taking 7 days to review apps due to covid. I wish there was a way to make your private app the same as the google play app so it didn't require uninstallation despite being signed with the same key, but that results in an installation error. I am sure google have some handwavy security fable around why this doesn't work, but their processes can be a massive risk to your business and you need to manage it somehow, so uninstall and sideload is unfortunately all that is possible.

overgard 5y ago

> 2) App stores have reached a size that can now be considered a "para-web". The 2 companies that police them (Google and Apple) don't have the resources to offer a solid experience for neither users nor developers. Of course they have the resources, it would just cut into their margin. This is a case where I think only regulatory action works; either that or app stores need to take a back seat rather than being a primary part of the os. If you think about the amount of control that an app store affords you, I think most of these companies would be happy to run an app store even at a loss. What I don't think is reasonable is the amount of anti-competitive leverage it gives them. I don't think it's in any sense safe to start a business that depends on these platforms, even if it can work most of the time. I think that's a case where regulation really is reasonable.

rchaud 5y ago

"Now available on the App Store and Google Play" I first heard those words on a TV commercial sometime in 2010. For the decade prior, it would have been "visit site dot com to learn more". Since 2010 I wonder how many hours worth of ads have aired that drill into consumers' heads the idea that applications live exclusively on app stores. The web may as well not exist, because it's outside the walled garden.

howolduis 5y ago

why were you collecting private data without notifying the user? some severe violations like this prompt immediate removal imo

collaborative 5y ago
I wasn't All data collected (email address which can be masked and name and surname which can be made up) was properly stated in the privacy policy

otrahuevada 5y ago

Just wantend to ask, in light of Google pulling an Apple in a couple months and preventing users from installing random APKs, is anyone working on a sideloading mechanism of some sort? I'd like my apps to remain out of their capricious, purposefully labyrinthic and failure prone stewardship for as long as possible

p_j_w 5y ago
>Google pulling an Apple in a couple months and preventing users from installing random APKs This is the first I've heard of this, unless you're confusing this with the idea of them requiring developers to upload Android App Bundles instead of APKs to the store. Do you have a source?
- otrahuevada 5y ago
  Can Android App Bundles be installed unsigned? And are they not the official standard from here onwards?
  - p_j_w 5y ago
    I don't have a very in-depth knowledge of Android App Bundles, but my impression was that the developer is that the developer uploads the AAB and Google generates an APK from it and delivers that to the user. From what I recall, there was never an announcement that sideloading APKs was going away.

shp0ngle 5y ago

A bit tangential, but I cannot figure out what does the OP app actually do https://www.groupsapp.online https://www.groupsapp.online Is it for E2EE chat? For shared diagrams? For shared calendar? It seem to do everything, including... turning B&W photos into colors? Cannot figure this out.

collaborative 5y ago
I often wish I could just maintain a couple dozen apps that do very specific things instead of one. I am quite certain it would also be way more profitable. People are quite ok with paying $1 for single use things, like zipping files or turning B&W pictures to color But maintaining any app on the app store is so time consuming that I just don't have the time for it Regarding your question, the app's main purpose is to work collaboratively on shared organigrams and family trees. It also includes an E2EE chat that I developed purely as a hobby (no chance competing against Whatsapp or Signal). That is the free bit I monetize by offering optional features like shared calendars, document drives and cloud photo galleries. Apologies if the app's purpose isn't clear and thanks for the hint seems I might need to simplify)

yawaworht1978 5y ago

We have approached a technology evolution segment where Facebook pages replace small business websites as discoverability is simply better than on own blog as small players are SEO handy capped. Same goes for devs with indie games,they need to be on high traffic platforms to survive. YouTube videos as well. The above-mentioned are fb, google and apple, they can all cut you off the platform with almost no way to speak to a human for case review. The e commerce platforms have a bit less of an irreversible way of doing things and you can get hold of human support. I am not sure what is the right way to go on about, but maybe force some companies to offer human operated support?

tacker2000 5y ago
You might get human support in ecommerce but most of the time they cant help you and keep sending you the same bullshit emails requiring you to send in a “plan of action”, which doesnt make any sense when you don’t really know why you got banned.