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Not trying to handwave away issues with the Japanese system, but scale seems relevant here. Japan: 40 incarcerated per 100k population [1] USA: 655 incarcerate

Not trying to handwave away issues with the Japanese system, but scale seems relevant here. Japan: 40 incarcerated per 100k population [1] USA: 655 incarcerated per 100k population [2] [1] https://www.prisonstudies.org/country/japan https://www.prisonstudies.org/country/japan [2] https://www.prisonstudies.org/country/united-states-america https://www.prisonstudies.org/country/united-states-america

thaumasiotes 5y ago
How many Japanese Americans are incarcerated per capita in the US?
- Phrodo_00 5y ago
  How is this relevant to anything
  - thaumasiotes 5y ago
    Weren't we comparing the rate of incarceration of the Japanese in Japan vs the US?
    - economusty 5y ago
      That is an interesting way to slice it.
    - anthk 5y ago
      These are Americans, not Japanese.
    - saghm 5y ago
      Japanese Americans are a group that has a sizable population of people who have lived their entire lives in the US. If you think that they would be more likely to behave similarly to people who have spent their whole lives in Japan, the burden of proof is on you, because that certainly is not a mainstream view.
      - NoImmatureAdHom 5y ago
        1) Confusion between Japanese in America and Japanese-Americans 2) "More likely to behave similarly" is a considerably wider net than just crime rates 3) I think the mainstream view is that East Asians of all stripes commit considerably less crime than average. It's certainly true of violent crime, which is something I've looked in to.
  - noaccnt 5y ago
    The implication of pointing out the US' high incarceration rate is that the US justice system and society are particularly malevolent. This point was used to defend Japan's justice system as being far more benign than the US. However, Japan's justice system may in fact be far more unforgiving that the US' if Americans are, in general, more likely to commit crime. Which is perfectly fair point to make (although inconclusive for various reasons). If (for whatever reason) Americans are more likely to commit more crimes, they are, all else being equal, more likely to be in jail. Of course many things can be true at the same time. Japan can have a brutal justice system and have a very docile, law abiding population. Maybe the brutality caused them to be docile. Or, America can have an abusive justice system, and a population that needs to be more incarcerated than others. Either way, the criminality of the Japanese is a relevant factor if America's incarceration rate is made relevant
    - Phrodo_00 5y ago
      Yeah, but the parent comment is talking about Japanese Americans, not Japanese in America. The experience of Japanese Americans is not related to Japanese people (especially if raised in Japan).
- NoImmatureAdHom 5y ago
  I don't know why the downvotes, this is the correct perspective. You need to take the base rate of criminality into account, and comparing Japanese in Japan to Japanese in America isn't unreasonable. You could also look at the rate of crimes per capita in each country. For instance, murders per capita: 4.96 in the U.S. vs 0.26 in Japan [0]. If we take this to represent base-rate criminality in that population, then we have a 19:1 US:Japan murder ratio, with only a 16:1 US: Japan incarceration ratio. Japan incarcerates more per unit murder. Of course this is a toy model, it's all a big feedback loop, etc., but I hope it serves to illustrate the point. 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intention...
  - plumthreads 5y ago
    You're claiming Japanese in America are representative of Japanese in Japan which is not the case. It's straight up racist too.
    - NoImmatureAdHom 5y ago
      I'm making the point that the base rate of criminality needs to be taken into account if you want to compare incarceration rates. For many different reasons people in one society might commit more crime than people in another society. Though I do not use the example myself, preferring the murder rate example, the parent's suggestion is a reasonable way to control for this inter-society difference. I would bet that Japanese in the U.S. evince rates of criminality more similar to those of Japanese in Japan than to the rest of American society. It's an empirical question; whether merely asking the question is racist or not given your particular sentiments about what's racist is beside the point.
      - alksjdalkj 5y ago
        > I would bet that Japanese in the U.S. evince rates of criminality more similar to those of Japanese in Japan than to the rest of American society What makes you believe that? If true, what might cause that to be the case?
haecceity 5y ago
That makes sense the market is more competitive in USA so they provide better service to the customers.
frumper 5y ago
That might even show that over time the Japanese system does a better job deterring crime
- Asooka 5y ago
  The way I've heard it, they don't bother arresting people who are not almost definitely guilty. After all, if someone is proven innocent, that's a black mark on the judge, the prosecution and the entire police department.
creddit 5y ago
What's the murder rate per country? What's the rate of assault? Et cetera, et cetera

thaumasiotes 5y ago

How many Japanese Americans are incarcerated per capita in the US?

Phrodo_00 5y ago
How is this relevant to anything
- thaumasiotes 5y ago
  Weren't we comparing the rate of incarceration of the Japanese in Japan vs the US?
  - economusty 5y ago
    That is an interesting way to slice it.
  - anthk 5y ago
    These are Americans, not Japanese.
  - saghm 5y ago
    Japanese Americans are a group that has a sizable population of people who have lived their entire lives in the US. If you think that they would be more likely to behave similarly to people who have spent their whole lives in Japan, the burden of proof is on you, because that certainly is not a mainstream view.
    - NoImmatureAdHom 5y ago
      1) Confusion between Japanese in America and Japanese-Americans 2) "More likely to behave similarly" is a considerably wider net than just crime rates 3) I think the mainstream view is that East Asians of all stripes commit considerably less crime than average. It's certainly true of violent crime, which is something I've looked in to.
- noaccnt 5y ago
  The implication of pointing out the US' high incarceration rate is that the US justice system and society are particularly malevolent. This point was used to defend Japan's justice system as being far more benign than the US. However, Japan's justice system may in fact be far more unforgiving that the US' if Americans are, in general, more likely to commit crime. Which is perfectly fair point to make (although inconclusive for various reasons). If (for whatever reason) Americans are more likely to commit more crimes, they are, all else being equal, more likely to be in jail. Of course many things can be true at the same time. Japan can have a brutal justice system and have a very docile, law abiding population. Maybe the brutality caused them to be docile. Or, America can have an abusive justice system, and a population that needs to be more incarcerated than others. Either way, the criminality of the Japanese is a relevant factor if America's incarceration rate is made relevant
  - Phrodo_00 5y ago
    Yeah, but the parent comment is talking about Japanese Americans, not Japanese in America. The experience of Japanese Americans is not related to Japanese people (especially if raised in Japan).
NoImmatureAdHom 5y ago
I don't know why the downvotes, this is the correct perspective. You need to take the base rate of criminality into account, and comparing Japanese in Japan to Japanese in America isn't unreasonable. You could also look at the rate of crimes per capita in each country. For instance, murders per capita: 4.96 in the U.S. vs 0.26 in Japan [0]. If we take this to represent base-rate criminality in that population, then we have a 19:1 US:Japan murder ratio, with only a 16:1 US: Japan incarceration ratio. Japan incarcerates more per unit murder. Of course this is a toy model, it's all a big feedback loop, etc., but I hope it serves to illustrate the point. 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intention...
- plumthreads 5y ago
  You're claiming Japanese in America are representative of Japanese in Japan which is not the case. It's straight up racist too.
  - NoImmatureAdHom 5y ago
    I'm making the point that the base rate of criminality needs to be taken into account if you want to compare incarceration rates. For many different reasons people in one society might commit more crime than people in another society. Though I do not use the example myself, preferring the murder rate example, the parent's suggestion is a reasonable way to control for this inter-society difference. I would bet that Japanese in the U.S. evince rates of criminality more similar to those of Japanese in Japan than to the rest of American society. It's an empirical question; whether merely asking the question is racist or not given your particular sentiments about what's racist is beside the point.
    - alksjdalkj 5y ago
      > I would bet that Japanese in the U.S. evince rates of criminality more similar to those of Japanese in Japan than to the rest of American society What makes you believe that? If true, what might cause that to be the case?

haecceity 5y ago

That makes sense the market is more competitive in USA so they provide better service to the customers.

frumper 5y ago

That might even show that over time the Japanese system does a better job deterring crime

Asooka 5y ago
The way I've heard it, they don't bother arresting people who are not almost definitely guilty. After all, if someone is proven innocent, that's a black mark on the judge, the prosecution and the entire police department.

creddit 5y ago

What's the murder rate per country? What's the rate of assault? Et cetera, et cetera