8 ms·

If you ever thought the American justice system is bad, look into the Japanese one. The whole system is designed to make you confess and apologize. They will li

If you ever thought the American justice system is bad, look into the Japanese one. The whole system is designed to make you confess and apologize. They will literally lie to you and tell you it will all go away if you sign the confession paperwork. You dont get a lawyer while they do this, and they get to keep you for quite a bit of time before you get a lawyer. They also dont do trial by jury, but inquisitorial judges who you have to prove your innocence too. The judges their dont like you making them go to trial, so good luck proving your case, after all you should have confessed already. Also Japanese conditions in their detention systems makes the American system look down right palatial. The whole system is designed to punish even moreso than the American system.

makeitdouble 5y ago
We can agree they’re both fucked up in their own specific ways, along with many other systems. We can hold hands at the bottom of the pit, no need for a winner. > litteraly lie to you BTW in a lot of countries they are basically immune to perjury, so this is just par for course
- temp8964 5y ago
  There are hundreds of countries on this planet. Are you sure U.S. and JP are at the bottom?
  - makeitdouble 5y ago
    I agree it was a stupid thing to say...sorry
anonAndOn 5y ago
Previously on HN: Prison in Japan (2017) (gaijinass.com) https://gaijinass.com/2017/03/30/brutal-realities-of-prison-in-japan/ https://gaijinass.com/2017/03/30/brutal-realities-of-prison-...
ohhelloxoxo 5y ago
Not trying to handwave away issues with the Japanese system, but scale seems relevant here. Japan: 40 incarcerated per 100k population [1] USA: 655 incarcerated per 100k population [2] [1] https://www.prisonstudies.org/country/japan https://www.prisonstudies.org/country/japan [2] https://www.prisonstudies.org/country/united-states-america https://www.prisonstudies.org/country/united-states-america
- thaumasiotes 5y ago
  How many Japanese Americans are incarcerated per capita in the US?
  - Phrodo_00 5y ago
    How is this relevant to anything
    - thaumasiotes 5y ago
      Weren't we comparing the rate of incarceration of the Japanese in Japan vs the US?
      - economusty 5y ago
        That is an interesting way to slice it.
      - anthk 5y ago
        These are Americans, not Japanese.
      - saghm 5y ago
        Japanese Americans are a group that has a sizable population of people who have lived their entire lives in the US. If you think that they would be more likely to behave similarly to people who have spent their whole lives in Japan, the burden of proof is on you, because that certainly is not a mainstream view.
eightails 5y ago
> They also dont do trial by jury, but inquisitorial judges who you have to prove your innocence too. Inquisitorial systems are pretty common among civil law countries e.g. much of Europe, and not intrinsically better or worse than the adversarial system usually seen in common law countries -- indeed they are sometimes used by the latter for specific purposes like summary offences and coronial inquests.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
laurieg 5y ago
Even if you have the mental strength to resist interrogation and not make a false confession, it might be in your interest to confess to speed things up. If you no-showed at work for 3 weeks, would you lose your job? But if you confess, you could be out today. Here is an account of being arrested and detained in Japan[1]. It's worth a read, especially given the ending. [1] https://nymag.com/vindicated/2016/11/truth-lies-and-videotape-at-the-kawasaki-kmart.html https://nymag.com/vindicated/2016/11/truth-lies-and-videotap...
- Clewza313 5y ago
  So she was falsely accused, detained for a week, and released with apparently no consequences? That's not great, but it's hardly a uniquely Japanese horror story either. For comparison, back in the Land of the Free, here's a kid in New York who was jailed for three years on Rikers Island for a similar false accusation of theft: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/10/06/before-the-law https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/10/06/before-the-law
  - Asooka 5y ago
    Yes, but that case is egregious by American standards, while the woman's case is everyday occurrence in Japan.
    - bzbarsky 5y ago
      _Is_ that case egregious by American standards? The 3 years might be (though I'm not convinced for some jurisdictions), but the overall shape of the case is, I think, depressingly common in the US...
    - yccs27 5y ago
      I mean, the whole argument is based on two anecdotes, which show that both systems can be excessively unfair. We'd need at least some numbers to talk about "everyday occurrences" or not.
noaccnt 5y ago
":They also dont do trial by jury, but inquisitorial judges who you have to prove your innocence too. " Didn't America set up their system after the peace treaty? They literally wrote the constitution, no?
clavicat 5y ago
>During an edition of BBC's Timewatch program, an eyewitness described the carnage in Cell Block 4. They saw an inmate held up in front of a window; he was being tortured by using a blowtorch on his face and eyes until his head exploded. Another story was about Mario Urioste, who was jailed for shoplifting. He was originally placed by officers in a violent unit where he was gang-raped by seven inmates. Mario had filed a lawsuit against his rapists, so prison officials had housed him in Cell Block 4 for his own protection. Urioste was one of the targets for revenge. His body was found hanged, with his throat cut and his dismembered genitals stuffed into his mouth. >Men were killed with piping, work tools, and crude homemade knives called shanks. One man was partially decapitated after being thrown over the second-tier balcony with a noose around his neck. The corpse was then dragged down and hacked up. A fire had been set in the gymnasium to burn a pile of corpses, but it had gotten out of control and burned through the roof. Besides the fire that had been set in the Psychology Wing, a fire was also set in the Protestant Chapel. The Protestant Chaplain had been nicknamed "Ax Handle" for his participation in the Night of the Ax Handles four years earlier. The Catholic Chapel next door was left untouched. Situated across the hall from the main control center, the prison library also was only touched by smoke. A third fire had been set in the records office, burning all records that could have been used as evidence related to the prisoners' civil rights claims in the Duran Consent Decree. I think the country that has a justice system where being blowtorched until your brain explodes is a possible consequence of detention compares unfavorably to the country that has zero prison riots. It's also worth noting that the Human Rights Watch report on prison conditions in Japan contains zero mentions of the word "rape"—let alone "gang rape". Is it so hard to admit that they have to be doing something right? Put yourselves in the shoes of a Japanese citizen—what could possibly make you look at American prison conditions and think "wow, I wish we had that instead", riots, gang rape, drugs, and all? What aspects of Japanese justice are so intolerable that they make all "palatial" by comparison? It's true that Japanese guards are strict—are Supermax guards so much nicer? I think the country that has the highest incarceration in the world could learn something from the country that enjoys the lowest incarceration rate in the developed world. Whether it's civilization arrogance or some pathological aversion to discipline, I don't know—but it seems bizarre to me that a prison system where you could end up with a mouthful of your own severed genitals could serve as a model to anyone. As for confessions, here's another example of the superior American way. >Several hours into the interrogation, Scott told the detectives he thought he needed a lawyer, an attempt to invoke his constitutional right to have an attorney present during questioning. But APD detectives testified last week they believed Scott was only thinking about asking for a lawyer—the same response they gave at Springsteen's trial last summer. When Springsteen asked about a lawyer during his interrogation, detectives left the room. When they returned, they promptly changed the subject. >And in the Scott interrogation's most infamous moment, Detective Merrill brought a revolver into the interrogation room to "help" Scott remember what he might've done that night at the yogurt shop through some "role playing." Gun in hand, Merrill walked around, then stood behind Scott and jabbed him in the head with what appeared to be the barrel of the gun. Merrill testified that it wasn't the gun but his finger. Nonetheless, the few seconds of video are startling. While the state could argue that the moment occurred well into the confession and couldn't have affected previous admissions, what does it take to render a confession false?

makeitdouble 5y ago

We can agree they’re both fucked up in their own specific ways, along with many other systems. We can hold hands at the bottom of the pit, no need for a winner. > litteraly lie to you BTW in a lot of countries they are basically immune to perjury, so this is just par for course

temp8964 5y ago
There are hundreds of countries on this planet. Are you sure U.S. and JP are at the bottom?
- makeitdouble 5y ago
  I agree it was a stupid thing to say...sorry

anonAndOn 5y ago

Previously on HN: Prison in Japan (2017) (gaijinass.com) https://gaijinass.com/2017/03/30/brutal-realities-of-prison-in-japan/ https://gaijinass.com/2017/03/30/brutal-realities-of-prison-...

ohhelloxoxo 5y ago

Not trying to handwave away issues with the Japanese system, but scale seems relevant here. Japan: 40 incarcerated per 100k population [1] USA: 655 incarcerated per 100k population [2] [1] https://www.prisonstudies.org/country/japan https://www.prisonstudies.org/country/japan [2] https://www.prisonstudies.org/country/united-states-america https://www.prisonstudies.org/country/united-states-america

thaumasiotes 5y ago
How many Japanese Americans are incarcerated per capita in the US?
- Phrodo_00 5y ago
  How is this relevant to anything
  - thaumasiotes 5y ago
    Weren't we comparing the rate of incarceration of the Japanese in Japan vs the US?
    - economusty 5y ago
      That is an interesting way to slice it.
    - anthk 5y ago
      These are Americans, not Japanese.
    - saghm 5y ago
      Japanese Americans are a group that has a sizable population of people who have lived their entire lives in the US. If you think that they would be more likely to behave similarly to people who have spent their whole lives in Japan, the burden of proof is on you, because that certainly is not a mainstream view.

eightails 5y ago

> They also dont do trial by jury, but inquisitorial judges who you have to prove your innocence too. Inquisitorial systems are pretty common among civil law countries e.g. much of Europe, and not intrinsically better or worse than the adversarial system usually seen in common law countries -- indeed they are sometimes used by the latter for specific purposes like summary offences and coronial inquests.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

laurieg 5y ago

Even if you have the mental strength to resist interrogation and not make a false confession, it might be in your interest to confess to speed things up. If you no-showed at work for 3 weeks, would you lose your job? But if you confess, you could be out today. Here is an account of being arrested and detained in Japan[1]. It's worth a read, especially given the ending. [1] https://nymag.com/vindicated/2016/11/truth-lies-and-videotape-at-the-kawasaki-kmart.html https://nymag.com/vindicated/2016/11/truth-lies-and-videotap...

Clewza313 5y ago
So she was falsely accused, detained for a week, and released with apparently no consequences? That's not great, but it's hardly a uniquely Japanese horror story either. For comparison, back in the Land of the Free, here's a kid in New York who was jailed for three years on Rikers Island for a similar false accusation of theft: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/10/06/before-the-law https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/10/06/before-the-law
- Asooka 5y ago
  Yes, but that case is egregious by American standards, while the woman's case is everyday occurrence in Japan.
  - bzbarsky 5y ago
    _Is_ that case egregious by American standards? The 3 years might be (though I'm not convinced for some jurisdictions), but the overall shape of the case is, I think, depressingly common in the US...
  - yccs27 5y ago
    I mean, the whole argument is based on two anecdotes, which show that both systems can be excessively unfair. We'd need at least some numbers to talk about "everyday occurrences" or not.

noaccnt 5y ago

":They also dont do trial by jury, but inquisitorial judges who you have to prove your innocence too. " Didn't America set up their system after the peace treaty? They literally wrote the constitution, no?

clavicat 5y ago

>During an edition of BBC's Timewatch program, an eyewitness described the carnage in Cell Block 4. They saw an inmate held up in front of a window; he was being tortured by using a blowtorch on his face and eyes until his head exploded. Another story was about Mario Urioste, who was jailed for shoplifting. He was originally placed by officers in a violent unit where he was gang-raped by seven inmates. Mario had filed a lawsuit against his rapists, so prison officials had housed him in Cell Block 4 for his own protection. Urioste was one of the targets for revenge. His body was found hanged, with his throat cut and his dismembered genitals stuffed into his mouth. >Men were killed with piping, work tools, and crude homemade knives called shanks. One man was partially decapitated after being thrown over the second-tier balcony with a noose around his neck. The corpse was then dragged down and hacked up. A fire had been set in the gymnasium to burn a pile of corpses, but it had gotten out of control and burned through the roof. Besides the fire that had been set in the Psychology Wing, a fire was also set in the Protestant Chapel. The Protestant Chaplain had been nicknamed "Ax Handle" for his participation in the Night of the Ax Handles four years earlier. The Catholic Chapel next door was left untouched. Situated across the hall from the main control center, the prison library also was only touched by smoke. A third fire had been set in the records office, burning all records that could have been used as evidence related to the prisoners' civil rights claims in the Duran Consent Decree. I think the country that has a justice system where being blowtorched until your brain explodes is a possible consequence of detention compares unfavorably to the country that has zero prison riots. It's also worth noting that the Human Rights Watch report on prison conditions in Japan contains zero mentions of the word "rape"—let alone "gang rape". Is it so hard to admit that they have to be doing something right? Put yourselves in the shoes of a Japanese citizen—what could possibly make you look at American prison conditions and think "wow, I wish we had that instead", riots, gang rape, drugs, and all? What aspects of Japanese justice are so intolerable that they make all "palatial" by comparison? It's true that Japanese guards are strict—are Supermax guards so much nicer? I think the country that has the highest incarceration in the world could learn something from the country that enjoys the lowest incarceration rate in the developed world. Whether it's civilization arrogance or some pathological aversion to discipline, I don't know—but it seems bizarre to me that a prison system where you could end up with a mouthful of your own severed genitals could serve as a model to anyone. As for confessions, here's another example of the superior American way. >Several hours into the interrogation, Scott told the detectives he thought he needed a lawyer, an attempt to invoke his constitutional right to have an attorney present during questioning. But APD detectives testified last week they believed Scott was only thinking about asking for a lawyer—the same response they gave at Springsteen's trial last summer. When Springsteen asked about a lawyer during his interrogation, detectives left the room. When they returned, they promptly changed the subject. >And in the Scott interrogation's most infamous moment, Detective Merrill brought a revolver into the interrogation room to "help" Scott remember what he might've done that night at the yogurt shop through some "role playing." Gun in hand, Merrill walked around, then stood behind Scott and jabbed him in the head with what appeared to be the barrel of the gun. Merrill testified that it wasn't the gun but his finger. Nonetheless, the few seconds of video are startling. While the state could argue that the moment occurred well into the confession and couldn't have affected previous admissions, what does it take to render a confession false?