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So, the justice system in Japan enforces additional restrictions after a person is out on bail ? He couldn't meet his wife seems like an unreasonable condition

So, the justice system in Japan enforces additional restrictions after a person is out on bail ? He couldn't meet his wife seems like an unreasonable condition for someone out on bail. Also, is the justice system in Japan so backed up that he would have to wait years for it go to trial ?

JumpCrisscross 5y ago
> He couldn't meet his wife seems like an unreasonable condition for someone out on bail It’s also not ridiculous? She isn’t his lawyer. He’s accused of a multibillion dollar fraud. And he was clearly a flight risk, one she personally amplified.
- lmm 5y ago
  How would being able to meet his wife have amplified his flight risk? Indeed he said the prospect of another year being kept apart from her (while still not getting a trial or even being charged) was his reason for absconding.
- djrogers 5y ago
  > She isn’t his lawyer. He’s accused of a multibillion dollar fraud. And he was clearly a flight risk, one she personally amplified. A) He was not in prison at the time B) Even incarcerated prisoners in most countries are allowed visits from their family C) It appears that keeping them apart is what actually amplified his flight risk, not letting them meet.
namelessoracle 5y ago
If you ever thought the American justice system is bad, look into the Japanese one. The whole system is designed to make you confess and apologize. They will literally lie to you and tell you it will all go away if you sign the confession paperwork. You dont get a lawyer while they do this, and they get to keep you for quite a bit of time before you get a lawyer. They also dont do trial by jury, but inquisitorial judges who you have to prove your innocence too. The judges their dont like you making them go to trial, so good luck proving your case, after all you should have confessed already. Also Japanese conditions in their detention systems makes the American system look down right palatial. The whole system is designed to punish even moreso than the American system.
- makeitdouble 5y ago
  We can agree they’re both fucked up in their own specific ways, along with many other systems. We can hold hands at the bottom of the pit, no need for a winner. > litteraly lie to you BTW in a lot of countries they are basically immune to perjury, so this is just par for course
  - temp8964 5y ago
    There are hundreds of countries on this planet. Are you sure U.S. and JP are at the bottom?
    - makeitdouble 5y ago
      I agree it was a stupid thing to say...sorry
- anonAndOn 5y ago
  Previously on HN: Prison in Japan (2017) (gaijinass.com) https://gaijinass.com/2017/03/30/brutal-realities-of-prison-in-japan/ https://gaijinass.com/2017/03/30/brutal-realities-of-prison-...
- ohhelloxoxo 5y ago
  Not trying to handwave away issues with the Japanese system, but scale seems relevant here. Japan: 40 incarcerated per 100k population [1] USA: 655 incarcerated per 100k population [2] [1] https://www.prisonstudies.org/country/japan https://www.prisonstudies.org/country/japan [2] https://www.prisonstudies.org/country/united-states-america https://www.prisonstudies.org/country/united-states-america
  - thaumasiotes 5y ago
    How many Japanese Americans are incarcerated per capita in the US?
    - 5y ago
jumelles 5y ago
Japan's conviction rate is above 99%. If you're arrested you can be held for up to 23 days without access to a lawyer. Japan's justice system is far from perfect.
- bogomipz 5y ago
  >"Japan's conviction rate is above 99%." Although this figure is is regularly sited in the context of Ghosn's decision to flee the country this statistic is misleading since in Japan this figure counts cases where the defendant pleads guilty. So this 99% figure applies to all prosecuted cases not just contested cases. If the US were to use the same calculation the conviction rate would be about the same. I believe it was Ghosn's team who first referenced this statistic in the wake of his escape and it was something of a stroke of PR genius as it seems to find its way into nearly all coverage of Ghosn's escape. And these references are seemingly always without a comparative context. The following is a good read on this statistic: https://thediplomat.com/2020/03/carlos-ghosn-and-japans-99-conviction-rate/ https://thediplomat.com/2020/03/carlos-ghosn-and-japans-99-c...
  - laurieg 5y ago
    The 99% conviction rate number that is mentioned can be misleading. This article[1] details how prosecutors drop cases and only bring 'airtight' cases before a judge. However, Carlos Ghosn's case was not simple some street crime uncovered by local cops, it was investigated by the special investigation section of the Tokyo prosecutors office. Cases brought by them are far less likely to be dropped. The defendant more or less has to prove their innocence. The power of prosecutors in the current system is clearly out of balance, but it doesn't seem to show signs of correcting anytime soon. [1]https://www.nippon.com/en/japan-topics/c05401/order-in-the-court-explaining-japan%E2%80%99s-99-9-conviction-rate.html https://www.nippon.com/en/japan-topics/c05401/order-in-the-c...
    - bogomipz 5y ago
      Thanks for the link. It is a very curious situation where a judge would fear a prosecutor. That does suggest a power imbalance. I feel your link also supports the point I was making though and the main difference between Japan and the US is that US makes heavy uses of plea bargains vs Japan's tendency to only ever bring cases they feel have a high probability of a successful conviction.
euske 5y ago
> So, the justice system in Japan enforces additional restrictions after a person is out on bail ? Only when there's a risk of the suspect colluding with others and concealing the evidence. IANAL, but I read that there were good reasons that the prosecution believes he does it. But this system is criticized today as it gives too much power to the prosecutors. I think the biggest problem is, as you mentioned, the slowness and bureaucracy of Japan's justice system, which I guess is still mostly paper-based. If it would take only a couple of weeks, he might have not done it. Everything is so slow to change here, and it's not just the justice system. I feel that Japan's inflexibility is slowly consuming the country.

JumpCrisscross 5y ago

> He couldn't meet his wife seems like an unreasonable condition for someone out on bail It’s also not ridiculous? She isn’t his lawyer. He’s accused of a multibillion dollar fraud. And he was clearly a flight risk, one she personally amplified.

lmm 5y ago
How would being able to meet his wife have amplified his flight risk? Indeed he said the prospect of another year being kept apart from her (while still not getting a trial or even being charged) was his reason for absconding.
djrogers 5y ago
> She isn’t his lawyer. He’s accused of a multibillion dollar fraud. And he was clearly a flight risk, one she personally amplified. A) He was not in prison at the time B) Even incarcerated prisoners in most countries are allowed visits from their family C) It appears that keeping them apart is what actually amplified his flight risk, not letting them meet.

namelessoracle 5y ago

If you ever thought the American justice system is bad, look into the Japanese one. The whole system is designed to make you confess and apologize. They will literally lie to you and tell you it will all go away if you sign the confession paperwork. You dont get a lawyer while they do this, and they get to keep you for quite a bit of time before you get a lawyer. They also dont do trial by jury, but inquisitorial judges who you have to prove your innocence too. The judges their dont like you making them go to trial, so good luck proving your case, after all you should have confessed already. Also Japanese conditions in their detention systems makes the American system look down right palatial. The whole system is designed to punish even moreso than the American system.

makeitdouble 5y ago
We can agree they’re both fucked up in their own specific ways, along with many other systems. We can hold hands at the bottom of the pit, no need for a winner. > litteraly lie to you BTW in a lot of countries they are basically immune to perjury, so this is just par for course
- temp8964 5y ago
  There are hundreds of countries on this planet. Are you sure U.S. and JP are at the bottom?
  - makeitdouble 5y ago
    I agree it was a stupid thing to say...sorry
anonAndOn 5y ago
Previously on HN: Prison in Japan (2017) (gaijinass.com) https://gaijinass.com/2017/03/30/brutal-realities-of-prison-in-japan/ https://gaijinass.com/2017/03/30/brutal-realities-of-prison-...
ohhelloxoxo 5y ago
Not trying to handwave away issues with the Japanese system, but scale seems relevant here. Japan: 40 incarcerated per 100k population [1] USA: 655 incarcerated per 100k population [2] [1] https://www.prisonstudies.org/country/japan https://www.prisonstudies.org/country/japan [2] https://www.prisonstudies.org/country/united-states-america https://www.prisonstudies.org/country/united-states-america
- thaumasiotes 5y ago
  How many Japanese Americans are incarcerated per capita in the US?
  - 5y ago

jumelles 5y ago

Japan's conviction rate is above 99%. If you're arrested you can be held for up to 23 days without access to a lawyer. Japan's justice system is far from perfect.

bogomipz 5y ago
>"Japan's conviction rate is above 99%." Although this figure is is regularly sited in the context of Ghosn's decision to flee the country this statistic is misleading since in Japan this figure counts cases where the defendant pleads guilty. So this 99% figure applies to all prosecuted cases not just contested cases. If the US were to use the same calculation the conviction rate would be about the same. I believe it was Ghosn's team who first referenced this statistic in the wake of his escape and it was something of a stroke of PR genius as it seems to find its way into nearly all coverage of Ghosn's escape. And these references are seemingly always without a comparative context. The following is a good read on this statistic: https://thediplomat.com/2020/03/carlos-ghosn-and-japans-99-conviction-rate/ https://thediplomat.com/2020/03/carlos-ghosn-and-japans-99-c...
- laurieg 5y ago
  The 99% conviction rate number that is mentioned can be misleading. This article[1] details how prosecutors drop cases and only bring 'airtight' cases before a judge. However, Carlos Ghosn's case was not simple some street crime uncovered by local cops, it was investigated by the special investigation section of the Tokyo prosecutors office. Cases brought by them are far less likely to be dropped. The defendant more or less has to prove their innocence. The power of prosecutors in the current system is clearly out of balance, but it doesn't seem to show signs of correcting anytime soon. [1]https://www.nippon.com/en/japan-topics/c05401/order-in-the-court-explaining-japan%E2%80%99s-99-9-conviction-rate.html https://www.nippon.com/en/japan-topics/c05401/order-in-the-c...
  - bogomipz 5y ago
    Thanks for the link. It is a very curious situation where a judge would fear a prosecutor. That does suggest a power imbalance. I feel your link also supports the point I was making though and the main difference between Japan and the US is that US makes heavy uses of plea bargains vs Japan's tendency to only ever bring cases they feel have a high probability of a successful conviction.

euske 5y ago

> So, the justice system in Japan enforces additional restrictions after a person is out on bail ? Only when there's a risk of the suspect colluding with others and concealing the evidence. IANAL, but I read that there were good reasons that the prosecution believes he does it. But this system is criticized today as it gives too much power to the prosecutors. I think the biggest problem is, as you mentioned, the slowness and bureaucracy of Japan's justice system, which I guess is still mostly paper-based. If it would take only a couple of weeks, he might have not done it. Everything is so slow to change here, and it's not just the justice system. I feel that Japan's inflexibility is slowly consuming the country.