10 ms·

More on Vaccine Side Effects

45 points by hprotagonist 5y ago

briantakita 5y ago
Now that the vaccine injuries can no longer be hidden from the public, the industry seeks to capture the discussion to retain their influence on public opinion. The core of the argument is risk assessment based on the statistics that they provided. The problem is, if they were lying about existence vaccine injuries, what is to stop them from lying about the statistics? A better solution to restore a proper feedback mechanism for public safety would be to bring back full liability in the court of law to the manufacturers, practitioners, & providers. If they are negligent, they pay damages. If there is criminal misconduct, they go to prison. If they commit genocide, they are executed. The contract between the citizens & the government is that the government protects the people from harm. If the government is to have credibility of authority, then it needs to take real action to protect the public from people who do the public harm.
- tboyd47 5y ago
  They know that they would never be able to stay in business in that case.
- AndrewBissell 5y ago
  The focus on GBS is clearly cherry-picking one of the rarer and more transient adverse side effects, observed in a by now barely used vaccine, in order to take up oxygen in the vaccine risks discussion and present the appearance of being on top of it. Says a lot that it is getting as much FDA attention as myocarditis, which is much more common (Israel estimated between 1 in 3000 and 1 in 6000 in men 16 to 24, far higher than the deceptive "few per million" presented in the article) and potentially more lasting.
- ben_w 5y ago
  There are many countries with many different jurisdictions and drug safety requirements, and not all vaccines passed all jurisdictions’ rules. Also, I’m no lawyer, but I would expect an act of negligence — as compared to “risks inherent in bringing forward new products to prevent severe cases of a virulent disease with known severe side effects in a significant minority of those not killed by it” — is already frowned upon by the law, and criminal misconduct already comes with prison time? Even in the most pessimistic assumptions of vaccine safety, the disease is much worse than the cure, and yet I don’t believe anyone is seriously suggesting D Trump or B Johnson goes to The Hague for an unfriendly chat about Crimes Against Humanity.
  - tboyd47 5y ago
    The limits of vaccine safety pessimism go far, far beyond your estimation. GP is probably an American and referring specifically to the immunity established by the NCVIA.
    - ben_w 5y ago
      If a researcher makes a novel vaccine with side effects even as tenth as bad as either long COVID or independently the death rate of COVID itself, I would expect the researchers to abandon it instead of wasting time attempting to start human trials. I am aware many people simply don’t believe in the health impacts of COVID/long COVID, but that’s over optimism about the disease rather than pessimism[0] about the treatment. [0] I also ought to have clarified: maximum rational pessimism, not conspiracy theories.
  - briantakita 5y ago
    > I don’t believe anyone is seriously suggesting D Trump or B Johnson I wasn't only talking about D Trump or B Johnson. Both are complicit for spreading the bioweapon. I'm talking about Fauci & the other bioweapon pushers who are committing genocide. The factor that is being ignored is that vaccine injuries are being reclassified as Covid or a coincidence unrelated to the vaccine. Tobacco Science had a similar technique.
- omgwtfbbq 5y ago
  >If they commit genocide, they are executed. You think vaccine manufacturers are going to commit genocide and you want to execute them? What fascist dreamland do you live in? Come back to reality
phtrivier 5y ago
I would have noded and approved this article 24 hours ago. Now vaccination is about to be made de-facto mandatory in France (with a snarky timing that will prevent some people from getting all their shots before restrictions pop in.) ; and I know that I'm going to be a bit less receptive, because of the tension between "this is sane science" and "this is a terrible bet on the future from a politician that got a lot of things wrong in the past." That will probably last only for a few days ; I suppose I'll be back on the "let's trust science and hope for the best" _team_ in a few days. The cognitive dissonance is not particularly pleasant. And I hate being forced into a _team_.
- sofixa 5y ago
  > with a snarky timing that will prevent some people from getting all their shots before restrictions pop in. It's not mandatory, unless you consider restaurants and travel to be necessities one needs ( and you can still use a test in lieu of a vaccine certificate, and tests are still free)
  - phtrivier 5y ago
    The full extend of the restrictions is still to be announced / debated, but the first echo indicates that even going to the mall for grocery shopping, to the pharmarcy for medecines or to the hospital for doc appointment might be restricted. Tests should not be free anymore sometimes in automn. That's why I meant by "de facto". Plus, we're talking about "restaurants" and "bars" in France. That borders on "necessities" ;) To be honest, my biggest issue is the timing, though time will tell if it was necessary (playing catch-up with an exponential, once again...)
    - sofixa 5y ago
      As you said, details are yet to be debated, but i highly doubt grocery shopping will be on the list of restricted activities. For the rest, PCR tests for free until the autumn will give plenty of time for everyone to get their two doses. It's not that complicated nor time consuming to take one every few days, it just requires anticipation. ( And btw did they specifically say PCR? I don't recall.. Antigen tests are quicker and might be an easier way out ) The timing is very short indeed, bordering on the unfeasible. I think that they're right in the approach, and maybe if they had given more time people would have been more relaxed and said to themselves they'll go get vaccinated once they're back from vacation, which might be too late to avoid trouble and new curfews, closings, etc.
herbst 5y ago
So the fact that we as world do a really bad job at vaccinating in countries with lower income will ultimately assure that new strains show up that are even more resistant against the vaccine? Is there any data if we are even fast enough? I mean some people are closer to their third shot than others getting their first in developing countries.
- AndrewBissell 5y ago
  > So the fact that we as world do a really bad job at vaccinating in countries with lower income will ultimately assure that new strains show up that are even more resistant against the vaccine? Exactly what would be the feasible logistical plan to put a shot in the arm of every single person on the entire planet at nearly the same time in order to (supposedly) forestall the evolution of new variants? Is there any historical precedent for this having been accomplished in the past with a virus as endemic as SARS-CoV-2? One which can also hide out and mutate in animal reservoirs?
  - cma 5y ago
    It mutates at a much lower rate than flu. And despite that, flu shots sill make sense even with animal resevoirs, holdouts, etc.
    - AndrewBissell 5y ago
      Do they completely eliminate influenza the way that it's being claimed the Covid vaccines would, if only uptake were high enough?
      - cma 5y ago
        Flu has about one base pair RNA mutation between each viral generation (cell to cell), coronavirus's with rna the length of the current one aren't possible without an error correction mechanism, and as a result of having that they have about only one base pair mutation between each host transmission (person to person). I don't know the answer to your question, but it seems much harder with flu due to more rapid variation.
xeromal 5y ago
I like the process the author walked through. I'll paste one of the paragraphs. "So as the CDC link shows, the choice is clear: mass vaccination does indeed have rare side effects, but mass infection with the coronavirus (which is the only other choice) is absolutely worse. And to reiterate a point that’s been made many times, the faster we can vaccinate people, the lower the chances we have of encountering a new variant form that will make everything even worse. We have to get as many doses out to the world as we possibly can, as quickly as we can."
- beiller 5y ago
  I am mostly on board with the vaccine, going to get my 2nd shot soon. But I do have a worry; This is setting a precedent where instead of treating disease now, we will preemptively vaccinate. It actually seems morally wrong to not take these steps to preemptively vaccinate. But will all these new vaccinations cause a virus to adapt to be more viral, similarly to how antibiotics has the potential to make bacteria resistant?
  - kadoban 5y ago
    The big issue with bacterial resistance to antibiotics is that there's a quite limited number of antibiotics, sometimes ~one that works without terrible side effects, so resistance is a _big_ deal. Vaccines don't work like that, there's an effectively unlimited number of vaccines, because they're tailored to the virus. It's still a problem if a virus mutates around your vaccine, but you're not worse off for trying. I am not a virologist, but it doesn't seem to make common sense to me that we're safer if we let a virus spread and just treat it, instead of vaccinating. The more of the virus that's out there, spreading and multiplying, the greater the opportunity for problematic mutations to develop/spread. That also assumes that there's a good treatment, and sufficient capacity to treat everyone quickly, otherwise there's really not a choice there.
  - nimih 5y ago
    > But will all these new vaccinations cause a virus to adapt to be more viral, similarly to how antibiotics has the potential to make bacteria resistant? Maybe, but it's not a big deal.[1] [1] https://www.pnas.org/content/115/51/12878 https://www.pnas.org/content/115/51/12878
olah_1 5y ago
I'm hearing a lot of people say that even if you get the vaccine, you can still get covid. Is that true?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- malcolmgreaves 5y ago
  95% effective does not mean 100% effective.
- tbabb 5y ago
  If you're vaccinated, it's rare to get it. If you get it, it's likely to be mild or completely asymptomatic. Basically no one who's been vaccinated has died.
  - dvfjsdhgfv 5y ago
    > Basically no one who's been vaccinated has died. It's better to be precise as the topic is quite sensitive[0]: > Unvaccinated 48-year-old man and vaccinated man in his 80s succumb as daily cases keep rising [0] https://www.timesofisrael.com/coronavirus-deaths-reported-in-israel-for-first-time-in-over-2-weeks/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/coronavirus-deaths-reported-in...
    - tbabb 5y ago
      More than 99% of people who die from COVID are unvaccinated.
  - briantakita 5y ago
    > Basically no one who's been vaccinated has died. Somebody dying 15 minutes after receiving the so-called vaccine is quite a coincidence. The problem is twofold. Anybody who died while having Covid was diagnosed as a Covid death, even if they already had terminal cancer or was involved with a fatal accident. Anybody who died after receiving a covid vaccine is treated as if the vaccine had no effect on their health. There needs to be a transparent audit on how these number came about. Autopsies need to be released as well. The opponents of the vaccines see glaring contradictions & obvious manipulation of the data. https://www.bitchute.com/video/MLl3YTV70iYC/ https://www.bitchute.com/video/MLl3YTV70iYC/ The other major issue is that vaccine manufacturers & pushers are exempt from legal liability. They could introduce a genocidal poison & no court of law would be able to touch them.
axpy906 5y ago
Deleted
CarelessExpert 5y ago
I wish I could get skeptics to believe this kind of evidence. I've had deeply frustrating conversations that went along the lines o Them: The vaccines are more dangerous than the virus! Me: No they aren't. There's very few cases of severe side effects. Blood clots with AZ are about the worst we've seen, though GBS is always a small risk with vaccinations. Them: No, the vaccines are super dangerous. People have gotten really sick from them. Me: No they haven't. Where did you hear this? Them: Yes they have. Repeat ad nauseum. Unfortunately, there's a solid contingent of people who get their "news" from Facebook conspiracy groups and use social media to reinforce bad information in their bubbles. Getting to them is proving damn near impossible...
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- elric 5y ago
  It's a problem with interpreting risk and control. Allow me to explain: 1. People think (wrongly) that they can control catching the virus. They can wear a mask, keep their distance, etc. This gives them a false sense of security and control. They think that if they do catch covid, they're unlikely to get really sick from it. 2. People (righly) think that they have very little control over what their bodies do after they get a vaccine. 3. People (wrongly) think that very serious side effects are more common than they are. Those all combine to an incorrect belief that they are better off without getting vaccinated. It's not an absurd sequence of beliefs. It's wrong. But it's easy to see how a lot of people become skeptics. Point 1 and 3 can both be remedied by increasing awareness. At least in my neck of the woods, official communication has been pretty poor. What's especially lacking is communication aimed at people who are not very science-literate. When I got my first shot, there was almost zero information about potential side effects. Two weeks later, I developed a huge rash near the injection site. Being somewhat intelligent, I was able to look this up and figure out that it was no big deal. If someone who is already skeptical were to experience this, I imagine they would be very disinclined to get their second shot.
  - CarelessExpert 5y ago
desine 5y ago
>So as the CDC link shows, the choice is clear: mass vaccination does indeed have rare side effects, but mass infection with the coronavirus (which is the only other choice) is absolutely worse. Not sure I agree that it's so easily quantifiable or justifiable. The loss of life due to the virus is tragic, but has been mostly the old and infirm. The vaccination side effects have been rare, but mostly affecting the young and healthy. They're also only a year out in a massive rollout of new biotechnology. New, not in terms of time, but in terms of scale - the mRNA concept has been in labs for 20 years, but it's only been in labs. It's reasonable to suspect that there may be other side effects that have not yet manifested. I'm glad we have the vaccines available for those who need them, and those who want them to feel safer. But if feels hubristic to state with such certainty that mass roll-out, including to children, is guaranteed to be better.
- omegaworks 5y ago
  >The loss of life due to the virus is tragic, but has been mostly the old and infirm. Why do the old and infirm deserve to die? >the mRNA concept has been in labs for 20 years, but it's only been in labs mRNA therapies have been in clinical trials for over a decade now[1]. 1. https://www.clinicaltrialsarena.com/comment/evolution-mrna-vaccine-trials-oncology/ https://www.clinicaltrialsarena.com/comment/evolution-mrna-v...
  - desine 5y ago
    I didn't state that the old and infirm deserve to die. I stated that the young seem to be more prone to these side effects, and that quantifying these two against each other is problematic. Yes, clinical trials tend to be done in labs. I'm speaking colloquially here. A clinical trial of a few thousand is not nearly the same as a global push to vaccinate everyone from teenage years up.
    - omegaworks 5y ago
      >I didn't state that the old and infirm deserve to die. When the few-in-a-million chance of complications for the young and fit are more tragic than the 610x rate of horrible, suffocating, isolated death of the old and infirm[1], you're making space for eugenics. 1. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/covid-data/investigations-discovery/hospitalization-death-by-age.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/covid-data/investi...
senectus1 5y ago
I recently got both my Pfizer shots. 1st one was super simple and easy... not even a sore arm. 2nd one, 3 weeks later was a different story. approx 15 hours after the shot I woke up from a decent nights sleep feeling like i'd been hit by a truck. everything ached, muscles, joints, eyeballs even my teeth hurt. Migraine like headache that triggered painful spikes with light and sound or head movements. At lunch time I dragged my sorry arse out of bed to make a meal and nearly passed out in the kitchen. If I hadn't laid down on the kitchen floor I might have seriously caused injury to myself. I was super nauseous and light headed, my heart felt like it was fluttering out its last. about 20 mins after laying down i crawled to the couch for an hour then went back to bed. the next day I felt a lot better, was still achy and fuzzy headed but much much better. The third day I was almost normal again and now a week later I'm just fine. Worse side effect I've ever had, but I still count it as totally worth it.

45 points by hprotagonist 5y ago

Now that the vaccine injuries can no longer be hidden from the public, the industry seeks to capture the discussion to retain their influence on public opinion. The core of the argument is risk assessment based on the statistics that they provided. The problem is, if they were lying about existence vaccine injuries, what is to stop them from lying about the statistics? A better solution to restore a proper feedback mechanism for public safety would be to bring back full liability in the court of law to the manufacturers, practitioners, & providers. If they are negligent, they pay damages. If there is criminal misconduct, they go to prison. If they commit genocide, they are executed. The contract between the citizens & the government is that the government protects the people from harm. If the government is to have credibility of authority, then it needs to take real action to protect the public from people who do the public harm.

tboyd47 5y ago
They know that they would never be able to stay in business in that case.
AndrewBissell 5y ago
The focus on GBS is clearly cherry-picking one of the rarer and more transient adverse side effects, observed in a by now barely used vaccine, in order to take up oxygen in the vaccine risks discussion and present the appearance of being on top of it. Says a lot that it is getting as much FDA attention as myocarditis, which is much more common (Israel estimated between 1 in 3000 and 1 in 6000 in men 16 to 24, far higher than the deceptive "few per million" presented in the article) and potentially more lasting.
ben_w 5y ago
There are many countries with many different jurisdictions and drug safety requirements, and not all vaccines passed all jurisdictions’ rules. Also, I’m no lawyer, but I would expect an act of negligence — as compared to “risks inherent in bringing forward new products to prevent severe cases of a virulent disease with known severe side effects in a significant minority of those not killed by it” — is already frowned upon by the law, and criminal misconduct already comes with prison time? Even in the most pessimistic assumptions of vaccine safety, the disease is much worse than the cure, and yet I don’t believe anyone is seriously suggesting D Trump or B Johnson goes to The Hague for an unfriendly chat about Crimes Against Humanity.
- tboyd47 5y ago
  The limits of vaccine safety pessimism go far, far beyond your estimation. GP is probably an American and referring specifically to the immunity established by the NCVIA.
  - ben_w 5y ago
    If a researcher makes a novel vaccine with side effects even as tenth as bad as either long COVID or independently the death rate of COVID itself, I would expect the researchers to abandon it instead of wasting time attempting to start human trials. I am aware many people simply don’t believe in the health impacts of COVID/long COVID, but that’s over optimism about the disease rather than pessimism[0] about the treatment. [0] I also ought to have clarified: maximum rational pessimism, not conspiracy theories.
- briantakita 5y ago
  > I don’t believe anyone is seriously suggesting D Trump or B Johnson I wasn't only talking about D Trump or B Johnson. Both are complicit for spreading the bioweapon. I'm talking about Fauci & the other bioweapon pushers who are committing genocide. The factor that is being ignored is that vaccine injuries are being reclassified as Covid or a coincidence unrelated to the vaccine. Tobacco Science had a similar technique.
omgwtfbbq 5y ago
>If they commit genocide, they are executed. You think vaccine manufacturers are going to commit genocide and you want to execute them? What fascist dreamland do you live in? Come back to reality

phtrivier 5y ago

I would have noded and approved this article 24 hours ago. Now vaccination is about to be made de-facto mandatory in France (with a snarky timing that will prevent some people from getting all their shots before restrictions pop in.) ; and I know that I'm going to be a bit less receptive, because of the tension between "this is sane science" and "this is a terrible bet on the future from a politician that got a lot of things wrong in the past." That will probably last only for a few days ; I suppose I'll be back on the "let's trust science and hope for the best" _team_ in a few days. The cognitive dissonance is not particularly pleasant. And I hate being forced into a _team_.

sofixa 5y ago
> with a snarky timing that will prevent some people from getting all their shots before restrictions pop in. It's not mandatory, unless you consider restaurants and travel to be necessities one needs ( and you can still use a test in lieu of a vaccine certificate, and tests are still free)
- phtrivier 5y ago
  The full extend of the restrictions is still to be announced / debated, but the first echo indicates that even going to the mall for grocery shopping, to the pharmarcy for medecines or to the hospital for doc appointment might be restricted. Tests should not be free anymore sometimes in automn. That's why I meant by "de facto". Plus, we're talking about "restaurants" and "bars" in France. That borders on "necessities" ;) To be honest, my biggest issue is the timing, though time will tell if it was necessary (playing catch-up with an exponential, once again...)
  - sofixa 5y ago
    As you said, details are yet to be debated, but i highly doubt grocery shopping will be on the list of restricted activities. For the rest, PCR tests for free until the autumn will give plenty of time for everyone to get their two doses. It's not that complicated nor time consuming to take one every few days, it just requires anticipation. ( And btw did they specifically say PCR? I don't recall.. Antigen tests are quicker and might be an easier way out ) The timing is very short indeed, bordering on the unfeasible. I think that they're right in the approach, and maybe if they had given more time people would have been more relaxed and said to themselves they'll go get vaccinated once they're back from vacation, which might be too late to avoid trouble and new curfews, closings, etc.

herbst 5y ago

So the fact that we as world do a really bad job at vaccinating in countries with lower income will ultimately assure that new strains show up that are even more resistant against the vaccine? Is there any data if we are even fast enough? I mean some people are closer to their third shot than others getting their first in developing countries.

AndrewBissell 5y ago
> So the fact that we as world do a really bad job at vaccinating in countries with lower income will ultimately assure that new strains show up that are even more resistant against the vaccine? Exactly what would be the feasible logistical plan to put a shot in the arm of every single person on the entire planet at nearly the same time in order to (supposedly) forestall the evolution of new variants? Is there any historical precedent for this having been accomplished in the past with a virus as endemic as SARS-CoV-2? One which can also hide out and mutate in animal reservoirs?
- cma 5y ago
  It mutates at a much lower rate than flu. And despite that, flu shots sill make sense even with animal resevoirs, holdouts, etc.
  - AndrewBissell 5y ago
    Do they completely eliminate influenza the way that it's being claimed the Covid vaccines would, if only uptake were high enough?
    - cma 5y ago
      Flu has about one base pair RNA mutation between each viral generation (cell to cell), coronavirus's with rna the length of the current one aren't possible without an error correction mechanism, and as a result of having that they have about only one base pair mutation between each host transmission (person to person). I don't know the answer to your question, but it seems much harder with flu due to more rapid variation.

xeromal 5y ago

I like the process the author walked through. I'll paste one of the paragraphs. "So as the CDC link shows, the choice is clear: mass vaccination does indeed have rare side effects, but mass infection with the coronavirus (which is the only other choice) is absolutely worse. And to reiterate a point that’s been made many times, the faster we can vaccinate people, the lower the chances we have of encountering a new variant form that will make everything even worse. We have to get as many doses out to the world as we possibly can, as quickly as we can."

beiller 5y ago
I am mostly on board with the vaccine, going to get my 2nd shot soon. But I do have a worry; This is setting a precedent where instead of treating disease now, we will preemptively vaccinate. It actually seems morally wrong to not take these steps to preemptively vaccinate. But will all these new vaccinations cause a virus to adapt to be more viral, similarly to how antibiotics has the potential to make bacteria resistant?
- kadoban 5y ago
  The big issue with bacterial resistance to antibiotics is that there's a quite limited number of antibiotics, sometimes ~one that works without terrible side effects, so resistance is a _big_ deal. Vaccines don't work like that, there's an effectively unlimited number of vaccines, because they're tailored to the virus. It's still a problem if a virus mutates around your vaccine, but you're not worse off for trying. I am not a virologist, but it doesn't seem to make common sense to me that we're safer if we let a virus spread and just treat it, instead of vaccinating. The more of the virus that's out there, spreading and multiplying, the greater the opportunity for problematic mutations to develop/spread. That also assumes that there's a good treatment, and sufficient capacity to treat everyone quickly, otherwise there's really not a choice there.
- nimih 5y ago
  > But will all these new vaccinations cause a virus to adapt to be more viral, similarly to how antibiotics has the potential to make bacteria resistant? Maybe, but it's not a big deal.[1] [1] https://www.pnas.org/content/115/51/12878 https://www.pnas.org/content/115/51/12878

olah_1 5y ago

I'm hearing a lot of people say that even if you get the vaccine, you can still get covid. Is that true?

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
malcolmgreaves 5y ago
95% effective does not mean 100% effective.
tbabb 5y ago
If you're vaccinated, it's rare to get it. If you get it, it's likely to be mild or completely asymptomatic. Basically no one who's been vaccinated has died.
- dvfjsdhgfv 5y ago
  > Basically no one who's been vaccinated has died. It's better to be precise as the topic is quite sensitive[0]: > Unvaccinated 48-year-old man and vaccinated man in his 80s succumb as daily cases keep rising [0] https://www.timesofisrael.com/coronavirus-deaths-reported-in-israel-for-first-time-in-over-2-weeks/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/coronavirus-deaths-reported-in...
  - tbabb 5y ago
    More than 99% of people who die from COVID are unvaccinated.
- briantakita 5y ago
  > Basically no one who's been vaccinated has died. Somebody dying 15 minutes after receiving the so-called vaccine is quite a coincidence. The problem is twofold. Anybody who died while having Covid was diagnosed as a Covid death, even if they already had terminal cancer or was involved with a fatal accident. Anybody who died after receiving a covid vaccine is treated as if the vaccine had no effect on their health. There needs to be a transparent audit on how these number came about. Autopsies need to be released as well. The opponents of the vaccines see glaring contradictions & obvious manipulation of the data. https://www.bitchute.com/video/MLl3YTV70iYC/ https://www.bitchute.com/video/MLl3YTV70iYC/ The other major issue is that vaccine manufacturers & pushers are exempt from legal liability. They could introduce a genocidal poison & no court of law would be able to touch them.

axpy906 5y ago

Deleted

CarelessExpert 5y ago

I wish I could get skeptics to believe this kind of evidence. I've had deeply frustrating conversations that went along the lines o Them: The vaccines are more dangerous than the virus! Me: No they aren't. There's very few cases of severe side effects. Blood clots with AZ are about the worst we've seen, though GBS is always a small risk with vaccinations. Them: No, the vaccines are super dangerous. People have gotten really sick from them. Me: No they haven't. Where did you hear this? Them: Yes they have. Repeat ad nauseum. Unfortunately, there's a solid contingent of people who get their "news" from Facebook conspiracy groups and use social media to reinforce bad information in their bubbles. Getting to them is proving damn near impossible...

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
elric 5y ago
It's a problem with interpreting risk and control. Allow me to explain: 1. People think (wrongly) that they can control catching the virus. They can wear a mask, keep their distance, etc. This gives them a false sense of security and control. They think that if they do catch covid, they're unlikely to get really sick from it. 2. People (righly) think that they have very little control over what their bodies do after they get a vaccine. 3. People (wrongly) think that very serious side effects are more common than they are. Those all combine to an incorrect belief that they are better off without getting vaccinated. It's not an absurd sequence of beliefs. It's wrong. But it's easy to see how a lot of people become skeptics. Point 1 and 3 can both be remedied by increasing awareness. At least in my neck of the woods, official communication has been pretty poor. What's especially lacking is communication aimed at people who are not very science-literate. When I got my first shot, there was almost zero information about potential side effects. Two weeks later, I developed a huge rash near the injection site. Being somewhat intelligent, I was able to look this up and figure out that it was no big deal. If someone who is already skeptical were to experience this, I imagine they would be very disinclined to get their second shot.
- CarelessExpert 5y ago

desine 5y ago

>So as the CDC link shows, the choice is clear: mass vaccination does indeed have rare side effects, but mass infection with the coronavirus (which is the only other choice) is absolutely worse. Not sure I agree that it's so easily quantifiable or justifiable. The loss of life due to the virus is tragic, but has been mostly the old and infirm. The vaccination side effects have been rare, but mostly affecting the young and healthy. They're also only a year out in a massive rollout of new biotechnology. New, not in terms of time, but in terms of scale - the mRNA concept has been in labs for 20 years, but it's only been in labs. It's reasonable to suspect that there may be other side effects that have not yet manifested. I'm glad we have the vaccines available for those who need them, and those who want them to feel safer. But if feels hubristic to state with such certainty that mass roll-out, including to children, is guaranteed to be better.

omegaworks 5y ago
>The loss of life due to the virus is tragic, but has been mostly the old and infirm. Why do the old and infirm deserve to die? >the mRNA concept has been in labs for 20 years, but it's only been in labs mRNA therapies have been in clinical trials for over a decade now[1]. 1. https://www.clinicaltrialsarena.com/comment/evolution-mrna-vaccine-trials-oncology/ https://www.clinicaltrialsarena.com/comment/evolution-mrna-v...
- desine 5y ago
  I didn't state that the old and infirm deserve to die. I stated that the young seem to be more prone to these side effects, and that quantifying these two against each other is problematic. Yes, clinical trials tend to be done in labs. I'm speaking colloquially here. A clinical trial of a few thousand is not nearly the same as a global push to vaccinate everyone from teenage years up.
  - omegaworks 5y ago
    >I didn't state that the old and infirm deserve to die. When the few-in-a-million chance of complications for the young and fit are more tragic than the 610x rate of horrible, suffocating, isolated death of the old and infirm[1], you're making space for eugenics. 1. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/covid-data/investigations-discovery/hospitalization-death-by-age.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/covid-data/investi...

senectus1 5y ago

I recently got both my Pfizer shots. 1st one was super simple and easy... not even a sore arm. 2nd one, 3 weeks later was a different story. approx 15 hours after the shot I woke up from a decent nights sleep feeling like i'd been hit by a truck. everything ached, muscles, joints, eyeballs even my teeth hurt. Migraine like headache that triggered painful spikes with light and sound or head movements. At lunch time I dragged my sorry arse out of bed to make a meal and nearly passed out in the kitchen. If I hadn't laid down on the kitchen floor I might have seriously caused injury to myself. I was super nauseous and light headed, my heart felt like it was fluttering out its last. about 20 mins after laying down i crawled to the couch for an hour then went back to bed. the next day I felt a lot better, was still achy and fuzzy headed but much much better. The third day I was almost normal again and now a week later I'm just fine. Worse side effect I've ever had, but I still count it as totally worth it.