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>This removes any opportunity to nudge more people toward getting the shots, he added.“The whole idea behind a good vaccination campaign is making not getting v

by forcry 5y ago

>This removes any opportunity to nudge more people toward getting the shots, he added.“The whole idea behind a good vaccination campaign is making not getting vaccinated the harder choice, and getting vaccinated the easy choice. Right now it’s the exact opposite — it’s easier not to be vaccinated." So people are supposed to be "nudged" into it? And they are supposed to do it because it is easier, as opposed to safer? So have these people already written off the idea of convincing people that vaccinating is the safer alternative? I mean, it appears that they are not even trying. But I guess it makes sense, because convincing people is harder, and when you can just put mandates for everything in place, and there is no opposition from people, it is much easier.

raxxorrax 5y ago
It is ridiculous really. I have been vaccinated with Moderna, which didn't even bring anything else to the market as far as I know. Listening to these people wanting to nudge others I wish I didn't get vaccinated. I think the damage Covid can cause is significant, but this is an experimental treatment. To my disappointment I didn't get magnetic, but doctors claiming there cannot be any unforseen dangers are lying to you. If someone forces the vaccine on you, they should be liable for any damages. Perhaps not the manufacturer but government in this case.
- LifeIsThermal 5y ago
  I´m less worried by vaccine safety than the vaccine strategy. You don´t normally vaccinate in an ongoing pandemic, usually you vaccinate when a virus is not in circulation. By vaccinating in this way, in an already infected population, you add selection pressure that creates an advantage for more contagious vaccine-resistant strains. This is the real danger in my opinion, but of course side effects of this new vaccine technology can emerge. We´ve already seen Pfizers vaccine downgraded to 64% efficacy in Israel due to the Delta-variant, so vaccine resistant mutations are a real thing. There´s one scientist that predicted this development perfectly, Geert Vanden Bosschen. He´s the only one so far that has made correct predictions in this pandemic. He said that mass-vaccinating during ongoing pandemic will result in rising numbers of cases among fully vaccinated people a couple of months after vaccination, caused by selective pressure leading to vaccine resistant mutations dominating. He also warns strongly against vaccinating children. But he praises the new vaccine technology, so he´s not antivaxx.
  - anshorei 5y ago
    > But he praises the new vaccine technology, so he´s not antivaxx. It's sad how this has to be stated every time one brings up criticism of the current vaccine strategy. For many people there's only two possible stances: "I've already taken the vaccine" and "I'm an anti-vaxxer". I also remember that back when Trump was boasting "We'll have the vaccine soon! It'll be the greatest vaccine. And then we can all go back to normal!" there was a healthy skepticism on the left of promoting nation-wide use of a rushed vaccine, but as soon as Biden took over this disappeared.
  - raxxorrax 5y ago
    Yes, I think Mareks disease is theorized to be a prime example for this. It is deadly by now for any unvaccinated chickens and it probably was caused by a leaky vaccine and the Covid vaccines are too.
  - dtech 5y ago
    What's the alternative? Let the pandemic rage on for a few more years, wait till everyone has been affected or dead, and then vaccinate? Oh wait, that will have the exact same problem, because as more and more people get natural immunity the same selective pressure arises causing new variants. See cold or flu viruses. Congratulations, you've just caused much more suffering, death and economic damage and achieved nothing by waiting with vaccinations. Good job!
  - Pyramus 5y ago
    > He´s the only one so far that has made correct predictions in this pandemic. How likely do you think is it, that a vast field of virologists, immunologists, molecular biologists, medical doctors and scientists in general are all wrong but this one person is right?
    - forcry 5y ago
      He is not alone in making that connection regarding vaccinating in the middle of a pandemic As you can see here. I am not sure what the exact time is, but they also suggest this possibility. It appears to me that this is common knowledge.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-RuvUkcyJI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-RuvUkcyJI
- stefan_ 5y ago
  There have been hundreds of millions of vaccinations. What unforseen danger is there at this point? Be precise.
  - LifeIsThermal 5y ago
    See my post below.
  - raxxorrax 5y ago
    Be precise about something that is unknowable? We take a risk with this plain and simple. It might be small, but so is risk from the disease itself.
  - AYBABTME 5y ago
    What if there's unpredictable long term consequences? Like, turns out XYZ compounds gives cancer but that only become detectable after 18+ months. Although I admit I don't know if regular trials would uncover these either. I have no dog in this fight, I'm just providing a possible answer.
    - Nursie 5y ago
      All of the components have been used before, these things aren't that new. mRNA tech itself has been in development since the 80s, and for immunisation since about 2012. It's gone from the body within a few hours AFAICT. If you're that worried, go for the J&J or AZ vaccines, which are more 'traditional' and don't use mRNA.
      - AYBABTME 5y ago
        I'm not worried at all, I'm eager to be able to get a mRNA vaccine, but no vaccine at all is available to my age group where I live. I envy y'all.
      - dvfjsdhgfv 5y ago
        Being new or not is not the crucial point. What matters is that it's in the interest of the society at large that as many people as possible are vaccinated quickly. This might present certain incentives to treat possible side effects in a political way, basically downplaying them. I'm not saying this is what is happening now, but it has definitely happened in the past. When you read the history of Pandemrix[0][1], you will note that: > In August 2010 the Swedish MPA issued a statement which included the following: "An investigation is ongoing, but any relationship between the vaccination and the reported symptoms can not be concluded." and: > In the Irish parliament, TD Clare Daly commented that, “The Health Service Executive (HSE) decided to purchase Pandemrix and continued to distribute it even after they knew it was dangerous and untested, and before most of the public in Ireland received it.” [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandemrix https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandemrix [1] https://www.thelocal.se/20201126/why-some-young-swedes-are-wary-of-new-vaccines-after-swine-flu-campaign/ https://www.thelocal.se/20201126/why-some-young-swedes-are-w...
- johnisgood 5y ago
  > doctors claiming there cannot be any unforseen dangers are lying to you We have to sign a paper that we cannot hold anyone liable for any potential harm that might come from the vaccine (any time in the future). 5.6 million people have signed it and got the vaccine.
chii 5y ago
> because convincing people is harder why do they need convincing, when it is quite self-evident that getting vaccinated, if you can, is better? If the people holding out won't listen to evidence, no amount of evidence-based convincing is going to change their mind. So the alternative should be to "nudge" by policy.
- forcry 5y ago
  > If the people holding out won't listen to evidence Different people have different definitions for "evidence". Something that can convince me, might not be enough to convince you. That does not mean I can force my trust in a certain evidence upon you.

by forcry 5y ago

raxxorrax 5y ago

It is ridiculous really. I have been vaccinated with Moderna, which didn't even bring anything else to the market as far as I know. Listening to these people wanting to nudge others I wish I didn't get vaccinated. I think the damage Covid can cause is significant, but this is an experimental treatment. To my disappointment I didn't get magnetic, but doctors claiming there cannot be any unforseen dangers are lying to you. If someone forces the vaccine on you, they should be liable for any damages. Perhaps not the manufacturer but government in this case.

LifeIsThermal 5y ago
I´m less worried by vaccine safety than the vaccine strategy. You don´t normally vaccinate in an ongoing pandemic, usually you vaccinate when a virus is not in circulation. By vaccinating in this way, in an already infected population, you add selection pressure that creates an advantage for more contagious vaccine-resistant strains. This is the real danger in my opinion, but of course side effects of this new vaccine technology can emerge. We´ve already seen Pfizers vaccine downgraded to 64% efficacy in Israel due to the Delta-variant, so vaccine resistant mutations are a real thing. There´s one scientist that predicted this development perfectly, Geert Vanden Bosschen. He´s the only one so far that has made correct predictions in this pandemic. He said that mass-vaccinating during ongoing pandemic will result in rising numbers of cases among fully vaccinated people a couple of months after vaccination, caused by selective pressure leading to vaccine resistant mutations dominating. He also warns strongly against vaccinating children. But he praises the new vaccine technology, so he´s not antivaxx.
- anshorei 5y ago
  > But he praises the new vaccine technology, so he´s not antivaxx. It's sad how this has to be stated every time one brings up criticism of the current vaccine strategy. For many people there's only two possible stances: "I've already taken the vaccine" and "I'm an anti-vaxxer". I also remember that back when Trump was boasting "We'll have the vaccine soon! It'll be the greatest vaccine. And then we can all go back to normal!" there was a healthy skepticism on the left of promoting nation-wide use of a rushed vaccine, but as soon as Biden took over this disappeared.
- raxxorrax 5y ago
  Yes, I think Mareks disease is theorized to be a prime example for this. It is deadly by now for any unvaccinated chickens and it probably was caused by a leaky vaccine and the Covid vaccines are too.
- dtech 5y ago
  What's the alternative? Let the pandemic rage on for a few more years, wait till everyone has been affected or dead, and then vaccinate? Oh wait, that will have the exact same problem, because as more and more people get natural immunity the same selective pressure arises causing new variants. See cold or flu viruses. Congratulations, you've just caused much more suffering, death and economic damage and achieved nothing by waiting with vaccinations. Good job!
- Pyramus 5y ago
  > He´s the only one so far that has made correct predictions in this pandemic. How likely do you think is it, that a vast field of virologists, immunologists, molecular biologists, medical doctors and scientists in general are all wrong but this one person is right?
  - forcry 5y ago
    He is not alone in making that connection regarding vaccinating in the middle of a pandemic As you can see here. I am not sure what the exact time is, but they also suggest this possibility. It appears to me that this is common knowledge.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-RuvUkcyJI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-RuvUkcyJI
stefan_ 5y ago
There have been hundreds of millions of vaccinations. What unforseen danger is there at this point? Be precise.
- LifeIsThermal 5y ago
  See my post below.
- raxxorrax 5y ago
  Be precise about something that is unknowable? We take a risk with this plain and simple. It might be small, but so is risk from the disease itself.
- AYBABTME 5y ago
  What if there's unpredictable long term consequences? Like, turns out XYZ compounds gives cancer but that only become detectable after 18+ months. Although I admit I don't know if regular trials would uncover these either. I have no dog in this fight, I'm just providing a possible answer.
  - Nursie 5y ago
    All of the components have been used before, these things aren't that new. mRNA tech itself has been in development since the 80s, and for immunisation since about 2012. It's gone from the body within a few hours AFAICT. If you're that worried, go for the J&J or AZ vaccines, which are more 'traditional' and don't use mRNA.
    - AYBABTME 5y ago
      I'm not worried at all, I'm eager to be able to get a mRNA vaccine, but no vaccine at all is available to my age group where I live. I envy y'all.
    - dvfjsdhgfv 5y ago
      Being new or not is not the crucial point. What matters is that it's in the interest of the society at large that as many people as possible are vaccinated quickly. This might present certain incentives to treat possible side effects in a political way, basically downplaying them. I'm not saying this is what is happening now, but it has definitely happened in the past. When you read the history of Pandemrix[0][1], you will note that: > In August 2010 the Swedish MPA issued a statement which included the following: "An investigation is ongoing, but any relationship between the vaccination and the reported symptoms can not be concluded." and: > In the Irish parliament, TD Clare Daly commented that, “The Health Service Executive (HSE) decided to purchase Pandemrix and continued to distribute it even after they knew it was dangerous and untested, and before most of the public in Ireland received it.” [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandemrix https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandemrix [1] https://www.thelocal.se/20201126/why-some-young-swedes-are-wary-of-new-vaccines-after-swine-flu-campaign/ https://www.thelocal.se/20201126/why-some-young-swedes-are-w...
johnisgood 5y ago
> doctors claiming there cannot be any unforseen dangers are lying to you We have to sign a paper that we cannot hold anyone liable for any potential harm that might come from the vaccine (any time in the future). 5.6 million people have signed it and got the vaccine.

chii 5y ago

> because convincing people is harder why do they need convincing, when it is quite self-evident that getting vaccinated, if you can, is better? If the people holding out won't listen to evidence, no amount of evidence-based convincing is going to change their mind. So the alternative should be to "nudge" by policy.

forcry 5y ago
> If the people holding out won't listen to evidence Different people have different definitions for "evidence". Something that can convince me, might not be enough to convince you. That does not mean I can force my trust in a certain evidence upon you.