13 ms·

The Death of the Festival

141 points by rudenoise 5y ago

ElViajero 5y ago
> We know the rules of society are arbitrary, set up so that the show can be played out to its conclusion. This seems wrong to me. Most society rules have a reason to exist. Maybe, in the past century a few of that rules have become obsolete. But humanity is excellent at creating rules that makes things good enough to keep going. There is nothing that makes a society change its rules like a change on the environment. > We should not be surprised that Western societies are showing signs of mass psychosis. The "everything is going to hell" theory. And, as often happens, without any proof or care to explain. > More generally, locked in, locked down, and locked out, the population’s confinement within the highly controlled environment of the internet is driving them crazy. *Them. I guess that the author is immune to this effect. I love festivals, and they make for a great opportunity to meet people and create community. Also, festivals are an opportunity for a community to present respect to folklore heroes and their moral values, and to laugh at villain and their lack thereof. Festivals are not to for "blow off steam".
- andrey_utkin 5y ago
  > Most society rules have a reason to exist. Quite some rules are affected by such reasons as "power begets power" - incumbent rulers/influencers tweaking the rulebook to reward incumbent powers and compliant populace and punish contenders. > Maybe, in the past century a few of that rules have become obsolete. But humanity is excellent at creating rules that makes things good enough to keep going. > There is nothing that makes a society change its rules like a change on the environment. From evolutionary perspective, I'd say people make up all sorts of changes, to a large degree at random, according to their own appetite. Then environment does its things, especially but not necessarily with factors not well understood by the societies, and wipes out the societies which can't survive in the new environment. For example, the USSR has played out the game of "more power to the center, more limitations for the public, more punishments for the dissenters" until it couldn't operate anymore. And increasingly lots of people have seen it coming, some of them decades in advance. Of course you can say "well but most people have survived and now the society has re-made itself", sure, but the society as in the set of definitive, durable, observable social constructs has ceased to exist.
  - enkid 5y ago
    The period directly before the fall of the Soviet Union was one of liberalization and opening up. If any thing, the history of the Soviet Union was on of decreasing repression (in fits and with some set backs) after Stalin's death. You also have to be really careful of historical predictions. Lots of people make lots of predictions. Most of them are wrong, and most of them aren't remembered.
    - tolbish 5y ago
      Liberals cause communism, liberals cause the end of communism—it's just hard to keep these vague political bogeymen straight sometimes.
      - enkid 5y ago
        Liberalization in this context has nothing to do with the current usage in American politics.
        tolbish 5y ago
        Liberalization was blamed both before the Soviet Union was established, and again when it was dissolved. You should be thinking of the former usage of both "liberals" and "liberalization".
- romesmoke 5y ago
  > The "everything is going to hell" theory. And, as often happens, without any proof or care to explain. How about an algorithmically-driven, heavily addicted, Brave-New-World-resembling globalized society? Why has the concept of 'proof' been lifted so many thousand kilometers off its place as a useful tool in scientific conduct, and placed over common sense?
- MrBuddyCasino 5y ago
  > We know the rules of society are arbitrary Author clearly has an underpowered pattern recognition module.
- michaelt 5y ago
  > Most society rules have a reason to exist. Well, it depends how broad your definition of 'rules' is. I've known people who consider it a 'rule' that when wearing a suit you should not do up the jacket's bottom button. I can imagine a person who used this expansive definition might see a great many rules as arbitrary; and enjoy a festival where rules could be broken.
- spurgu 5y ago
  > > We know the rules of society are arbitrary, set up so that the show can be played out to its conclusion. > This seems wrong to me. Most society rules have a reason to exist. They do have a reason to exist but that doesn't mean the rules are not arbitrary. Stop signs for example. They actually indicate that extra caution should be taken at the crossing. Actually stopping is rarely a necessity unless you want to obey the law to the letter. It's an arbitrary rule designed to decrease local accidents. Flirting at the workplace is another. It's more complex, but it's still an arbitrary rule, one that we might do without, it's all about what specifically we're trying to achieve (less romantic/sexual complications - positive and negative - at the workplace) with this arbitrary rule. There are less arbitrary rules of course, like not hurting other people, but most rules governing day-to-day life are highly arbitrary, to the point where you live an incredibly boring life unless you're a "criminal" - I don't stop at all stop signs for example, which by definition makes me a criminal. I also use drugs recreationally. > Festivals are not to for "blow off steam". Depends on the type of festival. I'd say all of them offer a fresh experience out of the regular day-to-day life (which could be defined as "blowing off steam"). Some might be more "transcendent" than others.
  - derekp7 5y ago
    There is a really good reason for stopping fully at a stop sign. If your speed and that of the cross traffic vehicle is matched appropriately, the vehicle will occupy the same position (remain stationary) in your field of view. That can cause you to miss seeing the car. By stopping then looking, the car will appear in motion against a still background making it much more likely to stand out.
    - spurgu 5y ago
      Sure, that's a good point, but it also applies to crossings without stop signs. :)
      - InitialLastName 5y ago
        At least where I am (NE US), there are very few intersections that are uncontrolled in all directions.
readflaggedcomm 5y ago
>Every human being knows, if only unconsciously, that we are not the roles and personae we occupy in the cultural drama of life. Reminds me of Catcher in the Rye, only older and more cynical. The author should reconsider "connection to a reality that is non-conventional": the physical activity he lists is only non-conventional to a select few, especially in the past. His evidence feels like an argument for festivals as a ward against idleness, not as a relief valve of simulated violence, which is poorly-justified. Perhaps Girard put too much faith in what "genuine artists" sense out of something like a harvest festival, which is the leisure of hard-working laborers. The author might consider that daily labor could be more violent than playful festivals, and what Girard sensed may have been relief from that, not from a crisis averted.
bsenftner 5y ago
He's on to something. The prose drops little passages easy to criticize, but the overall essay has good reasoning. I strongly agree the events one attends creating an alternative reality are more therapeutic and necessary than many are willing to admit.
- mojuba 5y ago
  I also liked the idea that true festivals (and riots) can serve as a regular reminder what it means to not have order in the society. It's a big immersive "what if" show.
- smackeyacky 5y ago
  Where did you find any nugget of wisdom hiding in this dangerous bunkum? Holistc healing and organic farming are what we abandoned so we wouldn't starve to death or mistake sepsis for being bedevilled. There isn't any reason in any of it, the whole essay is abandonment of reason.
  - jazzyjackson 5y ago
    Holistic healing and organic farming haven’t been abandoned at all, industrial farming and pharmaceuticals have merely dwarfed them thanks to its economic efficiency. But building soil and mixing a little wu with your morning stretches never hurt anyone (you do stretch in the morning, don’t you?)
sandworm101 5y ago
The author has obviously never been to Comicon. The festivals are still there, they just aren't manditory anymore. We no longer inist that everyone enjoy the same setpiece festivals at the government-approved times and locations. Compared to the past, we are now all free to participate in or even create our own festivals.
megameter 5y ago
It's a little bit too pat in its conclusions. When watching livestreams of riots, it's really evident that the chaos they produce is rather like little bursts of action, and not so much a sustained pandemonium. These bursts are a thing that can actually take place anytime and don't gain special value because of the riot, they are just more common, more easily prompted. Everyone gets behind on their narrative of events in the process; though the observers'll say something is happening according to their beliefs, it's not literally the thing that is happening. And that isn't so far removed from just an ordinary "wild party" that hurts people or gets stuff smashed. It's riotous specifically because of the context and political impact. There aren't "sides" in a party, unless there's a gang fight or something of that nature. But a riot always expresses some politics.
- Invictus0 5y ago
  > But a riot always expresses some politics. Counterpoint: The 2018 philly superbowl riot https://www.syracuse.com/us-news/2018/02/philly_riots_eagles_fans_super_bowl_victory.html https://www.syracuse.com/us-news/2018/02/philly_riots_eagles...
gverrilla 5y ago
>The natural order is unraveling. Plagues, floods, droughts, political unrest, riots, and economic crises strike one upon the next Interesting concept of "natural order". What "natural" means in this context? What about "order"? Would lets say genocide be considered a part of natural order aswell? >Societies have faced such circumstances repeatedly throughout history, just as we face them today. Fake news. Doesn't understand History.
- f6v 5y ago
  I love this meme [1]. We’re living in the best society to date. On average, of course. [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/memes/comments/aylts5/not_a_cellphone_in_sight/ https://www.reddit.com/r/memes/comments/aylts5/not_a_cellpho...
secretsatan 5y ago
Stopped reading at `Systemic use of natural and alternative healing modalities could vastly reduce covid mortality`
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- Trufa 5y ago
  Why? You might disagree but the article is interesting? Can you also assert that there’s nothing “natural” you can do that would systematically help with COVID prevention? Quitting smoking, running, healthy inmune system with dieting and so on?
  - Tenoke 5y ago
    That's not particularly alternative, it's interventions completely accepted by the medical system.
  - tokai 5y ago
    Quitting smoking is not what natural means here. Natural & Alternative is a catch all term for holistic medicine.
  - secretsatan 5y ago
    That's not what he means and you know it.
    - Trufa 5y ago
      I’m honestly not sure what he means. I may disagree with most, but I’m just surprised about people stopping reading when they hear something they disagree with. It’s not even the central point of the article.
      - eplanit 5y ago
        It's stopping reading at a sentence dripping with pseudo intellectualism. When writers try too hard to sound intelligent and erudite it's off-putting, and a "bullshit" indicator.
3np 5y ago
> As for Burning Man and the transformational music & art festivals, these have exercised some of the festival’s authentic function – until recently, when their exile to online platforms stripped them of any transcendental possibility. Much as the organizers are doing their best to keep the idea of the festival alive, online festivals risk becoming just another show for consumption. One clicks into them, sits back, and watches. In-person festivals are different. They start with a journey, then one must undergo an ordeal (waiting in line for hours). Finally you get to the entrance temple (the registration booth), where a small divination ritual (checking the list) is performed to determine your fitness to attend (by having made the appropriate sacrifice – a payment – beforehand). Thereupon, the priest or priestess in the booth confers upon the celebrant a special talisman to wear around the wrist at all times. After all this, the subconscious mind understands one has entered a separate realm, where indeed, to a degree at least, normal distinctions, relations, and rules do not apply. Online events of any kind rest safely in the home. Whatever the content, the body recognizes it as a show. I don't buy it. Surely there are still burns and de-facto lawless (as long as safety of others is not violated, and by that I'm not talking about social distancing or masks) festivals happening worldwide still? It's just that most government/corporate-backed ordeals, and huge (1k+ participants) events are called off. Here in JP (an otherwise famously very restrictive and normative society), meat-space outdoors raves/festivals and rainbow-like gatherings have been thriving during the pandemic, even moreso now during the summer, likely due to the nerfing of indoor club events. May be the case for other scenes as well; this is just the one I'm personally familiar with presently. From my limited perspective the festival scene is more active than ever: There are multiple 1-to-3-day raves/music festivals happening every week within 2h drive from where I'm at in the sleepy conforming boonies, states of emergency or not. There is certainly code, but I argue at least the events my friend groups have been frequenting are easily breaking social norms enough that they're still valid under their definition. They may be smaller, but they're more in numbers and frequency. From what I hear, the fetish subscenes also alive, active, and well. If it still happens here, I'd be surprised if it wasn't the case most everywhere. I suspect the author hasn't been seriously surveying their locale. (I certainly don't go rave every week; I know people who do, though. I gave up trying to preach to people that they should act COVID-safer. Party people gonna party people)
- 5y ago
jkhdigital 5y ago
Reads a lot like Jordan Peterson. Essays on psychological symbolism are hard to judge; I’ve read some Jung and Campbell but my comprehension still feels weak.
- whitexn--g28h 5y ago
  Other essays by the author are more overtly religious, and conspiratorial, similar to Peterson as well.
motohagiography 5y ago
Appears the writing is on the wall, as it were. Some years after Girard, Nassim Taleb riffed on a similar theme he called "suppressed volatility," where he started with risk being akin to a kind of energy that could not be created or destroyed, and the inevitable consequence of suppressing volatility was a kind of mean reversion or explosion on the other direction. I'd never consider Taleb as simpler or less wordy than anyone, but in this case, he seems more succinct than Girard on a similar topic. Carnivals and festivals today are still role reversals, where some Burners described it to me as for a week in the desert, artists and working people become administrators and facilitators where in regular life they may have little formal authority in their own roles, but here they are the volunteer leaders and make the whole thing go, and then white collar people who spend their lives projecting an edgeless affect can walk around naked, anonymous, and high. No doubt it's more than that, but as something that puts the carnal in carnival, it was a useful description. Personally, I think Girardian warnings of scapegoating rituals are late arriving words for a greater dynamic that appears to have been set in motion, as though if we've heard of his ideas and work, it's because we already needed to know them. The author's admonition that storm clouds are gathering is a pervasive sentiment in conversations I've had lately, but to extend the metaphor, everyone thinks they need to prepare for a storm, without considering that what they should be worried about is a flood and its aftermath. I wish festivals could help relieve some of the tectonic social pressures of the last few years, but as he points out, whether they are sanctioned events with artists, or just riots and worse, they're going to happen one way or another.
- schemathings 5y ago
  When I returned from my first burn I described it to friends as a carnival where everyone brings their own ride, and bonus points if its something ridiculous you imagined when you were a kid at your first carnival (a fire-breathing octopus for example)
jeegsy 5y ago
You could almost rework this to be a promotion for "The Purge" movies
golergka 5y ago
I spent 4 marvellous days at a semi-private psychedelic trance festival in deep Russian woods this June, and I couldn't disagree more. I felt as if I witnessed an event of similar cultural significance as british late 80s raves were back in their day, but the one that nobody outside of the community really knows anything about. The festival culture is alive and well, it's just got a little bit private, as it tries to conceal itself from authorities and masses. Burning Man, as well as many other festivals that attracted crowds lost a lot of intimacy and implied freedom; I just don't believe that you could feel the same way in a commercial festival that has more than a thousand of attendees.
- kipchak 5y ago
  These smaller festivals seem great for those who can attend, but it seems like for those who can't the largest option is commercialized subcultures, something like Star Wars Celebration to pick an example.
  - golergka 5y ago
    > those who can attend Why wouldn't someone be able to attend? Just to clarify, I saw startup founders with net worth of tens of million of dollars and "true hippies" living on $300 a month and I couldn't tell them apart.
    - kipchak 5y ago
      Not necessarily financially, but in terms of accessibility. For example I've personally never heard of a festival like this nearby me, outside of music festivals perhaps. Going by the article festivals were once more of a everyone or almost everyone affair.
      - golergka 5y ago
        But festivals like this are dedicated to music which is definitely is not everyone affair: most people just don't like it. If you want to judge for yourself, the festival in question had artists like Psykovsky and Fungus Funk. Do you think that this is something general public would enjoy listening? (No elitism intended, I don't think that my music taste is better than anyone else's. I just as a matter of fact know that it's a little different). But if you're one of the people who like and follow this music scene, you'd probably go to some publicly announced psytrance parties, meet people there, and hear about this festival as well. And finally, there's question of the authorities. Even if we forget about the very strong psychedelic tradition that follows this genre of music (it's literally in the name, and for a very good reason), it's not a good idea to draw attention to any music event in Russia, unless you have very good lawyers and serious money involved that can protect your interest.
mbg721 5y ago
This is mixing up the cause and the effect. What's happening isn't society fracturing for lack of occasions to break the rules, it's that society can't invent occasions to break the rules if it can't agree what the rules are. Which side of the culture war is going to be given up when "violent unanimity" is achieved at the end of the festival?
jostylr 5y ago
It reminds me of the discussion of forest fires and whether to let the smaller fires burn to avoid the big, devastating fires. And then there is the question of intentionally starting fires to do the role of the smaller ones. Given how that debate is not even agreed upon, it is hard to believe that one could come to much of an understanding of the Festival and its need with humans.
ethn 5y ago
Or consider Wittgenstein. Maybe people attend festivals just because it’s fun.
pugworthy 5y ago
As a fairly seasoned burner, I really had to shake my head at this article. I found it really odd that the only mention of Burning Man is how the online version attempts last year didn't work so well. No mention of how Burning Man fits into this "death spiral" idea - or how Burning Man fails to fall into that spiral. In particular, it makes this one comment stood out... > A true festival is not a tame affair. It is a suspension of normal rules, mores, structures, and social distinctions. Girard explains: OK yes, that sounds like Burning Man. But then it follows up with this part of Girard's explanation... > As one might expect, this destruction of differences is often accompanied by violence and strife. Subordinates hurl insults at their superiors; various social factions exchange gibes and abuse. Disputes rage in the midst of disorder. Violence and strife? Raging disputes? Hurled insults? (OK well there are those megaphone people.) Seriously, the author has never been to Burning Man. Or if they did go, it was a hugely different experience than what I and a lot of other people ever had. Maybe Burning Man just isn't a festival. Or maybe burners just festival differently. Or maybe the author is talking about something else.
- seph-reed 5y ago
  There's a lot missing in the article. In particular, self-expression (IMO) has advanced a little bit. Hurling insults doesn't really mean much anymore, you can do it on any forum. But creating your art... that means something. Something that can't be said with words. It's really amazing how different peoples experiences can be though. Even going to the big burn, many never reach that "escape velocity."
  - pugworthy 5y ago
    > Even going to the big burn, many never reach that "escape velocity." Very true. And you bring up an interesting point in terms of creating your own art. There are festivals where people arrive and proclaim, "Entertain me!" Whereas there are others (like Burning Man) where people often come to express themselves and share their creations. Even those not bringing a lot often go just to experience the joy of the creations of others.
spandrew 5y ago
When all one has is a hammer (Girardian festival analogy) all of the world's problems begin looking like nails... (socially engineer-able solutions) I can't really tell, but I think this article is arguing that the carbon crisis would be solved so long as the smelly privileged are allowed to have orgies in fields.
machinehermiter 5y ago
I am a Girardian newb but Girard even mentions sporting events in the article. IMO it isn't just sporting events though but violent sporting events that let us exercise the scapegoat mechanism. At least in the US. If your team wins, it doesn't matter your background if you are both fans of the same team. I really can't think of anything that quite brings us together like team sports in the 21st century. Obviously, if you are not a sports fan this is much harder to see. Burning man is too obvious, literal and it just isn't that many people vs the whole of society. I can remember as a little kid the mimetic desire to become my favorite sports stars complete with wearing a jersey with their name on my back as if I was them. On a side note, it is an absolutely ridiculous situation that Audible has one audio book by Girard. I would love to pass the time driving in the car with a wide selection of Girard to chew on.
blobbers 5y ago
"None of the problems facing humanity today are technically difficult to solve. Holistic farming methods could heal soil and water, sequester carbon, increase biodiversity, and actually increase yields to swiftly solve various ecological and humanitarian crises. Simply declaring a moratorium on fishing in half the world’s oceans would heal them too" What kind of sanctimonious BS is this. I stopped reading because his thinking did not appear to be worth my time. And I came here to the comments to check if I was correct or not...
- beckman466 5y ago
  > sanctimonious BS Ah yes, using big words and no actual critique. Can you please put more effort into this and explain why this post is “sanctimonious BS” to you?
  - blobbers 5y ago
    "None of the problems facing humanity today are technically difficult to solve." - yes, if you're trying to solve them the way a toddler would without considering secondary effects of your solutions. "Simply declaring a moratorium on fishing in half the world’s oceans would heal them too" isn't going to heal the oceans suddenly. Shipping channels, pollution, and all the downstream effects of the missing calories people get from consuming ocean products would have massive secondary effects. As I said, I didn't read the post, just this blurb that I quoted.
  - deleted 5y ago
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bmarquez 5y ago
The article mentions festivals as a "suspension of normal rules, mores, structures, and social distinction" and riots having a festive dimension. I don't know Girard's work enough to comment, but wonder if there is a connection between Girard and Temporary Autonomous Zones[1] (which Burning Man is a large scale example of) As an aside, the article claims that online Burning Man failed because of it was too consumption based. It's not a good example since there were numerous issues including participants lacking VR headsets, userbase split up into different platforms (there was no singular "official" software), capacity constraints, etc. I tried it on burn night (Altspace VR) and the man was floating in mid-air as it was burning, so glitches too. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temporary_Autonomous_Zone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temporary_Autonomous_Zone
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8bitsrule 5y ago
>None of the problems facing humanity today are technically difficult to solve. What? None? So "plagues, floods, droughts, political unrest, riots, and economic crises" (which follow a highly-technical century as they 'strike one upon the next') are technically easy to solve? The rest of this wild-haired rhetorical festival grows more sad and less relevant.
ExposeThem 5y ago
Idiot detected.
deleted 5y ago
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eyelovewe 5y ago
Well that certainly added every ingredient in the kitchen. Who can argue with such a sprawling word associative piece of prose? I’m not entirely sure I understood the latent threat, nor do I see any attempt to apply these concepts to seriously “modernly” repressed societies, oh let’s just take North Korea. Are they all just going to socially explode? What are the concrete consequences of removing all dangerous festivals from society?

141 points by rudenoise 5y ago

> We know the rules of society are arbitrary, set up so that the show can be played out to its conclusion. This seems wrong to me. Most society rules have a reason to exist. Maybe, in the past century a few of that rules have become obsolete. But humanity is excellent at creating rules that makes things good enough to keep going. There is nothing that makes a society change its rules like a change on the environment. > We should not be surprised that Western societies are showing signs of mass psychosis. The "everything is going to hell" theory. And, as often happens, without any proof or care to explain. > More generally, locked in, locked down, and locked out, the population’s confinement within the highly controlled environment of the internet is driving them crazy. *Them. I guess that the author is immune to this effect. I love festivals, and they make for a great opportunity to meet people and create community. Also, festivals are an opportunity for a community to present respect to folklore heroes and their moral values, and to laugh at villain and their lack thereof. Festivals are not to for "blow off steam".

andrey_utkin 5y ago
> Most society rules have a reason to exist. Quite some rules are affected by such reasons as "power begets power" - incumbent rulers/influencers tweaking the rulebook to reward incumbent powers and compliant populace and punish contenders. > Maybe, in the past century a few of that rules have become obsolete. But humanity is excellent at creating rules that makes things good enough to keep going. > There is nothing that makes a society change its rules like a change on the environment. From evolutionary perspective, I'd say people make up all sorts of changes, to a large degree at random, according to their own appetite. Then environment does its things, especially but not necessarily with factors not well understood by the societies, and wipes out the societies which can't survive in the new environment. For example, the USSR has played out the game of "more power to the center, more limitations for the public, more punishments for the dissenters" until it couldn't operate anymore. And increasingly lots of people have seen it coming, some of them decades in advance. Of course you can say "well but most people have survived and now the society has re-made itself", sure, but the society as in the set of definitive, durable, observable social constructs has ceased to exist.
- enkid 5y ago
  The period directly before the fall of the Soviet Union was one of liberalization and opening up. If any thing, the history of the Soviet Union was on of decreasing repression (in fits and with some set backs) after Stalin's death. You also have to be really careful of historical predictions. Lots of people make lots of predictions. Most of them are wrong, and most of them aren't remembered.
  - tolbish 5y ago
    Liberals cause communism, liberals cause the end of communism—it's just hard to keep these vague political bogeymen straight sometimes.
    - enkid 5y ago
      Liberalization in this context has nothing to do with the current usage in American politics.
      - tolbish 5y ago
        Liberalization was blamed both before the Soviet Union was established, and again when it was dissolved. You should be thinking of the former usage of both "liberals" and "liberalization".
romesmoke 5y ago
> The "everything is going to hell" theory. And, as often happens, without any proof or care to explain. How about an algorithmically-driven, heavily addicted, Brave-New-World-resembling globalized society? Why has the concept of 'proof' been lifted so many thousand kilometers off its place as a useful tool in scientific conduct, and placed over common sense?
MrBuddyCasino 5y ago
> We know the rules of society are arbitrary Author clearly has an underpowered pattern recognition module.
michaelt 5y ago
> Most society rules have a reason to exist. Well, it depends how broad your definition of 'rules' is. I've known people who consider it a 'rule' that when wearing a suit you should not do up the jacket's bottom button. I can imagine a person who used this expansive definition might see a great many rules as arbitrary; and enjoy a festival where rules could be broken.
spurgu 5y ago
> > We know the rules of society are arbitrary, set up so that the show can be played out to its conclusion. > This seems wrong to me. Most society rules have a reason to exist. They do have a reason to exist but that doesn't mean the rules are not arbitrary. Stop signs for example. They actually indicate that extra caution should be taken at the crossing. Actually stopping is rarely a necessity unless you want to obey the law to the letter. It's an arbitrary rule designed to decrease local accidents. Flirting at the workplace is another. It's more complex, but it's still an arbitrary rule, one that we might do without, it's all about what specifically we're trying to achieve (less romantic/sexual complications - positive and negative - at the workplace) with this arbitrary rule. There are less arbitrary rules of course, like not hurting other people, but most rules governing day-to-day life are highly arbitrary, to the point where you live an incredibly boring life unless you're a "criminal" - I don't stop at all stop signs for example, which by definition makes me a criminal. I also use drugs recreationally. > Festivals are not to for "blow off steam". Depends on the type of festival. I'd say all of them offer a fresh experience out of the regular day-to-day life (which could be defined as "blowing off steam"). Some might be more "transcendent" than others.
- derekp7 5y ago
  There is a really good reason for stopping fully at a stop sign. If your speed and that of the cross traffic vehicle is matched appropriately, the vehicle will occupy the same position (remain stationary) in your field of view. That can cause you to miss seeing the car. By stopping then looking, the car will appear in motion against a still background making it much more likely to stand out.
  - spurgu 5y ago
    Sure, that's a good point, but it also applies to crossings without stop signs. :)
    - InitialLastName 5y ago
      At least where I am (NE US), there are very few intersections that are uncontrolled in all directions.

readflaggedcomm 5y ago

>Every human being knows, if only unconsciously, that we are not the roles and personae we occupy in the cultural drama of life. Reminds me of Catcher in the Rye, only older and more cynical. The author should reconsider "connection to a reality that is non-conventional": the physical activity he lists is only non-conventional to a select few, especially in the past. His evidence feels like an argument for festivals as a ward against idleness, not as a relief valve of simulated violence, which is poorly-justified. Perhaps Girard put too much faith in what "genuine artists" sense out of something like a harvest festival, which is the leisure of hard-working laborers. The author might consider that daily labor could be more violent than playful festivals, and what Girard sensed may have been relief from that, not from a crisis averted.

bsenftner 5y ago

He's on to something. The prose drops little passages easy to criticize, but the overall essay has good reasoning. I strongly agree the events one attends creating an alternative reality are more therapeutic and necessary than many are willing to admit.

mojuba 5y ago
I also liked the idea that true festivals (and riots) can serve as a regular reminder what it means to not have order in the society. It's a big immersive "what if" show.
smackeyacky 5y ago
Where did you find any nugget of wisdom hiding in this dangerous bunkum? Holistc healing and organic farming are what we abandoned so we wouldn't starve to death or mistake sepsis for being bedevilled. There isn't any reason in any of it, the whole essay is abandonment of reason.
- jazzyjackson 5y ago
  Holistic healing and organic farming haven’t been abandoned at all, industrial farming and pharmaceuticals have merely dwarfed them thanks to its economic efficiency. But building soil and mixing a little wu with your morning stretches never hurt anyone (you do stretch in the morning, don’t you?)

sandworm101 5y ago

The author has obviously never been to Comicon. The festivals are still there, they just aren't manditory anymore. We no longer inist that everyone enjoy the same setpiece festivals at the government-approved times and locations. Compared to the past, we are now all free to participate in or even create our own festivals.

megameter 5y ago

It's a little bit too pat in its conclusions. When watching livestreams of riots, it's really evident that the chaos they produce is rather like little bursts of action, and not so much a sustained pandemonium. These bursts are a thing that can actually take place anytime and don't gain special value because of the riot, they are just more common, more easily prompted. Everyone gets behind on their narrative of events in the process; though the observers'll say something is happening according to their beliefs, it's not literally the thing that is happening. And that isn't so far removed from just an ordinary "wild party" that hurts people or gets stuff smashed. It's riotous specifically because of the context and political impact. There aren't "sides" in a party, unless there's a gang fight or something of that nature. But a riot always expresses some politics.

Invictus0 5y ago
> But a riot always expresses some politics. Counterpoint: The 2018 philly superbowl riot https://www.syracuse.com/us-news/2018/02/philly_riots_eagles_fans_super_bowl_victory.html https://www.syracuse.com/us-news/2018/02/philly_riots_eagles...

gverrilla 5y ago

>The natural order is unraveling. Plagues, floods, droughts, political unrest, riots, and economic crises strike one upon the next Interesting concept of "natural order". What "natural" means in this context? What about "order"? Would lets say genocide be considered a part of natural order aswell? >Societies have faced such circumstances repeatedly throughout history, just as we face them today. Fake news. Doesn't understand History.

f6v 5y ago
I love this meme [1]. We’re living in the best society to date. On average, of course. [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/memes/comments/aylts5/not_a_cellphone_in_sight/ https://www.reddit.com/r/memes/comments/aylts5/not_a_cellpho...

secretsatan 5y ago

Stopped reading at `Systemic use of natural and alternative healing modalities could vastly reduce covid mortality`

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Trufa 5y ago
Why? You might disagree but the article is interesting? Can you also assert that there’s nothing “natural” you can do that would systematically help with COVID prevention? Quitting smoking, running, healthy inmune system with dieting and so on?
- Tenoke 5y ago
  That's not particularly alternative, it's interventions completely accepted by the medical system.
- tokai 5y ago
  Quitting smoking is not what natural means here. Natural & Alternative is a catch all term for holistic medicine.
- secretsatan 5y ago
  That's not what he means and you know it.
  - Trufa 5y ago
    I’m honestly not sure what he means. I may disagree with most, but I’m just surprised about people stopping reading when they hear something they disagree with. It’s not even the central point of the article.
    - eplanit 5y ago
      It's stopping reading at a sentence dripping with pseudo intellectualism. When writers try too hard to sound intelligent and erudite it's off-putting, and a "bullshit" indicator.

3np 5y ago

> As for Burning Man and the transformational music & art festivals, these have exercised some of the festival’s authentic function – until recently, when their exile to online platforms stripped them of any transcendental possibility. Much as the organizers are doing their best to keep the idea of the festival alive, online festivals risk becoming just another show for consumption. One clicks into them, sits back, and watches. In-person festivals are different. They start with a journey, then one must undergo an ordeal (waiting in line for hours). Finally you get to the entrance temple (the registration booth), where a small divination ritual (checking the list) is performed to determine your fitness to attend (by having made the appropriate sacrifice – a payment – beforehand). Thereupon, the priest or priestess in the booth confers upon the celebrant a special talisman to wear around the wrist at all times. After all this, the subconscious mind understands one has entered a separate realm, where indeed, to a degree at least, normal distinctions, relations, and rules do not apply. Online events of any kind rest safely in the home. Whatever the content, the body recognizes it as a show. I don't buy it. Surely there are still burns and de-facto lawless (as long as safety of others is not violated, and by that I'm not talking about social distancing or masks) festivals happening worldwide still? It's just that most government/corporate-backed ordeals, and huge (1k+ participants) events are called off. Here in JP (an otherwise famously very restrictive and normative society), meat-space outdoors raves/festivals and rainbow-like gatherings have been thriving during the pandemic, even moreso now during the summer, likely due to the nerfing of indoor club events. May be the case for other scenes as well; this is just the one I'm personally familiar with presently. From my limited perspective the festival scene is more active than ever: There are multiple 1-to-3-day raves/music festivals happening every week within 2h drive from where I'm at in the sleepy conforming boonies, states of emergency or not. There is certainly code, but I argue at least the events my friend groups have been frequenting are easily breaking social norms enough that they're still valid under their definition. They may be smaller, but they're more in numbers and frequency. From what I hear, the fetish subscenes also alive, active, and well. If it still happens here, I'd be surprised if it wasn't the case most everywhere. I suspect the author hasn't been seriously surveying their locale. (I certainly don't go rave every week; I know people who do, though. I gave up trying to preach to people that they should act COVID-safer. Party people gonna party people)

5y ago

jkhdigital 5y ago

Reads a lot like Jordan Peterson. Essays on psychological symbolism are hard to judge; I’ve read some Jung and Campbell but my comprehension still feels weak.

whitexn--g28h 5y ago
Other essays by the author are more overtly religious, and conspiratorial, similar to Peterson as well.

motohagiography 5y ago

Appears the writing is on the wall, as it were. Some years after Girard, Nassim Taleb riffed on a similar theme he called "suppressed volatility," where he started with risk being akin to a kind of energy that could not be created or destroyed, and the inevitable consequence of suppressing volatility was a kind of mean reversion or explosion on the other direction. I'd never consider Taleb as simpler or less wordy than anyone, but in this case, he seems more succinct than Girard on a similar topic. Carnivals and festivals today are still role reversals, where some Burners described it to me as for a week in the desert, artists and working people become administrators and facilitators where in regular life they may have little formal authority in their own roles, but here they are the volunteer leaders and make the whole thing go, and then white collar people who spend their lives projecting an edgeless affect can walk around naked, anonymous, and high. No doubt it's more than that, but as something that puts the carnal in carnival, it was a useful description. Personally, I think Girardian warnings of scapegoating rituals are late arriving words for a greater dynamic that appears to have been set in motion, as though if we've heard of his ideas and work, it's because we already needed to know them. The author's admonition that storm clouds are gathering is a pervasive sentiment in conversations I've had lately, but to extend the metaphor, everyone thinks they need to prepare for a storm, without considering that what they should be worried about is a flood and its aftermath. I wish festivals could help relieve some of the tectonic social pressures of the last few years, but as he points out, whether they are sanctioned events with artists, or just riots and worse, they're going to happen one way or another.

schemathings 5y ago
When I returned from my first burn I described it to friends as a carnival where everyone brings their own ride, and bonus points if its something ridiculous you imagined when you were a kid at your first carnival (a fire-breathing octopus for example)

jeegsy 5y ago

You could almost rework this to be a promotion for "The Purge" movies

golergka 5y ago

I spent 4 marvellous days at a semi-private psychedelic trance festival in deep Russian woods this June, and I couldn't disagree more. I felt as if I witnessed an event of similar cultural significance as british late 80s raves were back in their day, but the one that nobody outside of the community really knows anything about. The festival culture is alive and well, it's just got a little bit private, as it tries to conceal itself from authorities and masses. Burning Man, as well as many other festivals that attracted crowds lost a lot of intimacy and implied freedom; I just don't believe that you could feel the same way in a commercial festival that has more than a thousand of attendees.

kipchak 5y ago
These smaller festivals seem great for those who can attend, but it seems like for those who can't the largest option is commercialized subcultures, something like Star Wars Celebration to pick an example.
- golergka 5y ago
  > those who can attend Why wouldn't someone be able to attend? Just to clarify, I saw startup founders with net worth of tens of million of dollars and "true hippies" living on $300 a month and I couldn't tell them apart.
  - kipchak 5y ago
    Not necessarily financially, but in terms of accessibility. For example I've personally never heard of a festival like this nearby me, outside of music festivals perhaps. Going by the article festivals were once more of a everyone or almost everyone affair.
    - golergka 5y ago
      But festivals like this are dedicated to music which is definitely is not everyone affair: most people just don't like it. If you want to judge for yourself, the festival in question had artists like Psykovsky and Fungus Funk. Do you think that this is something general public would enjoy listening? (No elitism intended, I don't think that my music taste is better than anyone else's. I just as a matter of fact know that it's a little different). But if you're one of the people who like and follow this music scene, you'd probably go to some publicly announced psytrance parties, meet people there, and hear about this festival as well. And finally, there's question of the authorities. Even if we forget about the very strong psychedelic tradition that follows this genre of music (it's literally in the name, and for a very good reason), it's not a good idea to draw attention to any music event in Russia, unless you have very good lawyers and serious money involved that can protect your interest.

mbg721 5y ago

This is mixing up the cause and the effect. What's happening isn't society fracturing for lack of occasions to break the rules, it's that society can't invent occasions to break the rules if it can't agree what the rules are. Which side of the culture war is going to be given up when "violent unanimity" is achieved at the end of the festival?

jostylr 5y ago

It reminds me of the discussion of forest fires and whether to let the smaller fires burn to avoid the big, devastating fires. And then there is the question of intentionally starting fires to do the role of the smaller ones. Given how that debate is not even agreed upon, it is hard to believe that one could come to much of an understanding of the Festival and its need with humans.

ethn 5y ago

Or consider Wittgenstein. Maybe people attend festivals just because it’s fun.

pugworthy 5y ago

As a fairly seasoned burner, I really had to shake my head at this article. I found it really odd that the only mention of Burning Man is how the online version attempts last year didn't work so well. No mention of how Burning Man fits into this "death spiral" idea - or how Burning Man fails to fall into that spiral. In particular, it makes this one comment stood out... > A true festival is not a tame affair. It is a suspension of normal rules, mores, structures, and social distinctions. Girard explains: OK yes, that sounds like Burning Man. But then it follows up with this part of Girard's explanation... > As one might expect, this destruction of differences is often accompanied by violence and strife. Subordinates hurl insults at their superiors; various social factions exchange gibes and abuse. Disputes rage in the midst of disorder. Violence and strife? Raging disputes? Hurled insults? (OK well there are those megaphone people.) Seriously, the author has never been to Burning Man. Or if they did go, it was a hugely different experience than what I and a lot of other people ever had. Maybe Burning Man just isn't a festival. Or maybe burners just festival differently. Or maybe the author is talking about something else.

seph-reed 5y ago
There's a lot missing in the article. In particular, self-expression (IMO) has advanced a little bit. Hurling insults doesn't really mean much anymore, you can do it on any forum. But creating your art... that means something. Something that can't be said with words. It's really amazing how different peoples experiences can be though. Even going to the big burn, many never reach that "escape velocity."
- pugworthy 5y ago
  > Even going to the big burn, many never reach that "escape velocity." Very true. And you bring up an interesting point in terms of creating your own art. There are festivals where people arrive and proclaim, "Entertain me!" Whereas there are others (like Burning Man) where people often come to express themselves and share their creations. Even those not bringing a lot often go just to experience the joy of the creations of others.

spandrew 5y ago

When all one has is a hammer (Girardian festival analogy) all of the world's problems begin looking like nails... (socially engineer-able solutions) I can't really tell, but I think this article is arguing that the carbon crisis would be solved so long as the smelly privileged are allowed to have orgies in fields.

machinehermiter 5y ago

I am a Girardian newb but Girard even mentions sporting events in the article. IMO it isn't just sporting events though but violent sporting events that let us exercise the scapegoat mechanism. At least in the US. If your team wins, it doesn't matter your background if you are both fans of the same team. I really can't think of anything that quite brings us together like team sports in the 21st century. Obviously, if you are not a sports fan this is much harder to see. Burning man is too obvious, literal and it just isn't that many people vs the whole of society. I can remember as a little kid the mimetic desire to become my favorite sports stars complete with wearing a jersey with their name on my back as if I was them. On a side note, it is an absolutely ridiculous situation that Audible has one audio book by Girard. I would love to pass the time driving in the car with a wide selection of Girard to chew on.

blobbers 5y ago

"None of the problems facing humanity today are technically difficult to solve. Holistic farming methods could heal soil and water, sequester carbon, increase biodiversity, and actually increase yields to swiftly solve various ecological and humanitarian crises. Simply declaring a moratorium on fishing in half the world’s oceans would heal them too" What kind of sanctimonious BS is this. I stopped reading because his thinking did not appear to be worth my time. And I came here to the comments to check if I was correct or not...

beckman466 5y ago
> sanctimonious BS Ah yes, using big words and no actual critique. Can you please put more effort into this and explain why this post is “sanctimonious BS” to you?
- blobbers 5y ago
  "None of the problems facing humanity today are technically difficult to solve." - yes, if you're trying to solve them the way a toddler would without considering secondary effects of your solutions. "Simply declaring a moratorium on fishing in half the world’s oceans would heal them too" isn't going to heal the oceans suddenly. Shipping channels, pollution, and all the downstream effects of the missing calories people get from consuming ocean products would have massive secondary effects. As I said, I didn't read the post, just this blurb that I quoted.
- deleted 5y ago
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bmarquez 5y ago

The article mentions festivals as a "suspension of normal rules, mores, structures, and social distinction" and riots having a festive dimension. I don't know Girard's work enough to comment, but wonder if there is a connection between Girard and Temporary Autonomous Zones[1] (which Burning Man is a large scale example of) As an aside, the article claims that online Burning Man failed because of it was too consumption based. It's not a good example since there were numerous issues including participants lacking VR headsets, userbase split up into different platforms (there was no singular "official" software), capacity constraints, etc. I tried it on burn night (Altspace VR) and the man was floating in mid-air as it was burning, so glitches too. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temporary_Autonomous_Zone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temporary_Autonomous_Zone

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8bitsrule 5y ago

>None of the problems facing humanity today are technically difficult to solve. What? None? So "plagues, floods, droughts, political unrest, riots, and economic crises" (which follow a highly-technical century as they 'strike one upon the next') are technically easy to solve? The rest of this wild-haired rhetorical festival grows more sad and less relevant.

ExposeThem 5y ago

Idiot detected.

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eyelovewe 5y ago

Well that certainly added every ingredient in the kitchen. Who can argue with such a sprawling word associative piece of prose? I’m not entirely sure I understood the latent threat, nor do I see any attempt to apply these concepts to seriously “modernly” repressed societies, oh let’s just take North Korea. Are they all just going to socially explode? What are the concrete consequences of removing all dangerous festivals from society?