15 ms·

> Private jets will enjoy an exemption through classification of "business aviation" as the use of aircraft by firms for carriage of passengers or goods as an "

> Private jets will enjoy an exemption through classification of "business aviation" as the use of aircraft by firms for carriage of passengers or goods as an "aid to the conduct of their business", if generally considered not for public hire. > A further exemption is given for "pleasure" flights whereby an aircraft is used for "personal or recreational" purposes not associated with a business or professional use. Surely they can afford it more than everyone else flying?

barbazoo 5y ago
I don't understand the business aviation exemption at all. Why does it matter that the flight is being conducted to "aid to the conduct of their business"? And how is that different from other passenger flights? What about ICE, do companies also not have to pay the Ökosteuer (green tax) on gas in Germany?
- t0mas88 5y ago
  Unlike what the mass outrage here makes you believe, this is a reasonable exception. Because non-commercial flights (business and hobby) already pay local taxes like VAT and excise on the fuel. The thing is that fuel commercial aviation is exempt from tax due to historic regulations. The EU is proposing to change that by taxing jet fuel for those users. So it makes total sense that they exclude those that already pay tax on their fuel from this new tax.
  - hutzlibu 5y ago
    "So it makes total sense that they exclude those that already pay tax on their fuel from this new tax." How do the numbers compare?
    - t0mas88 5y ago
      Differs per country, especially excise can vary a lot. The proposal is for a minimum tax on jet fuel for commercial flights to still start at zero and then increase the minimum tax every year. So I'm expecting it to be below VAT + excise.
  - pas 5y ago
    So shouldn't they simply enumerate the exceptions that they want to remove instead?
ocdtrekkie 5y ago
That and it's also the most wasteful use of fuel, because you're lifting an entire jet and crew for more than likely a single rich jerk who feels too special to fly passenger jets like everyone else. On a carbon-per-person metric, private jets are literally the worst.
- pxeboot 5y ago
  > On a carbon-per-person metric, private jets are literally the worst. And the same people probably have several yachts that burn even more fuel per hour.
- shock 5y ago
  > On a carbon-per-person metric, private jets are literally the worst. Depends what you consider a "jet". There are a lot of aicraft in GA aviation that consume fuel at the same amount/km as a car, while not contributing to carbon emissions by sitting in traffic. Many of them also burn regular gasoline as fuel.
- rektide 5y ago
  > On a carbon-per-person metric, private jets are literally the worst. Were the worst. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_tourism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_tourism
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - mrmuagi 5y ago
    This just makes the per-person metric a useless metric. There's not a lot of space flights to even point it out as a issue.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - whiddershins 5y ago
    Wait but rockets don’t use fossil fuels, do they?
lsllc 5y ago
"When the last tree has been cut down, the last fish caught, the last river poisoned, only then will we realize that one cannot eat money." https://quoteinvestigator.com/2011/10/20/last-tree-cut/ https://quoteinvestigator.com/2011/10/20/last-tree-cut/
- raxxorrax 5y ago
  Cash could be eaten at least. Try to eat a bitcoin...
DSingularity 5y ago
At what point will we stop acting as if the government legislates to represent the interests of the constituency who voted for the politicians and not the elites who fund its politicians?
- aembleton 5y ago
  It's not the government, at this stage it is just the EU Commission who are unelected. MEPs could still reject it.
bserge 5y ago
Don't worry, we peasants can recycle bottles for a few months to offset that. Honestly, I hope some private jets get blown the hell up in the future.
_rpd 5y ago
The actual reason for the exemption is that they cannot impose the tax on non-EU operators, giving the non-EU operators a competitive advantage.
- tonyedgecombe 5y ago
  The UK does (including back in the good old days when we were still in the EU).
  - _rpd 5y ago
    This doesn't appear to be the case (as of Oct 2019) ... > members of the International Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO), including the United Kingdom, are prevented from taxing international aviation fuel, or any proxies for fuel, under the Chicago Convention. https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN00523/SN00523.pdf https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN00...
    - tonyedgecombe 5y ago
      It's not on the fuel, rather the flights: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/rates-and-allowances-for-air-passenger-duty https://www.gov.uk/guidance/rates-and-allowances-for-air-pas...
    - londons_explore 5y ago
      I think it might be time for an ~80 year old convention to be revamped if it kills the environment...
- LudwigNagasena 5y ago
  They can’t impose a tax on jets that use their airspace?
  - magicalhippo 5y ago
    AFAIK that would require changes to the customs area, which might have consequences for other aspects like transiting goods. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_control#Customs_area https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_control#Customs_area
stjohnswarts 5y ago
I think it's basically "oh those poor rich private jet owners, overtaxed and underappreciated!"

barbazoo 5y ago

I don't understand the business aviation exemption at all. Why does it matter that the flight is being conducted to "aid to the conduct of their business"? And how is that different from other passenger flights? What about ICE, do companies also not have to pay the Ökosteuer (green tax) on gas in Germany?

t0mas88 5y ago
Unlike what the mass outrage here makes you believe, this is a reasonable exception. Because non-commercial flights (business and hobby) already pay local taxes like VAT and excise on the fuel. The thing is that fuel commercial aviation is exempt from tax due to historic regulations. The EU is proposing to change that by taxing jet fuel for those users. So it makes total sense that they exclude those that already pay tax on their fuel from this new tax.
- hutzlibu 5y ago
  "So it makes total sense that they exclude those that already pay tax on their fuel from this new tax." How do the numbers compare?
  - t0mas88 5y ago
    Differs per country, especially excise can vary a lot. The proposal is for a minimum tax on jet fuel for commercial flights to still start at zero and then increase the minimum tax every year. So I'm expecting it to be below VAT + excise.
- pas 5y ago
  So shouldn't they simply enumerate the exceptions that they want to remove instead?

ocdtrekkie 5y ago

That and it's also the most wasteful use of fuel, because you're lifting an entire jet and crew for more than likely a single rich jerk who feels too special to fly passenger jets like everyone else. On a carbon-per-person metric, private jets are literally the worst.

pxeboot 5y ago
> On a carbon-per-person metric, private jets are literally the worst. And the same people probably have several yachts that burn even more fuel per hour.
shock 5y ago
> On a carbon-per-person metric, private jets are literally the worst. Depends what you consider a "jet". There are a lot of aicraft in GA aviation that consume fuel at the same amount/km as a car, while not contributing to carbon emissions by sitting in traffic. Many of them also burn regular gasoline as fuel.
rektide 5y ago
> On a carbon-per-person metric, private jets are literally the worst. Were the worst. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_tourism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_tourism
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- mrmuagi 5y ago
  This just makes the per-person metric a useless metric. There's not a lot of space flights to even point it out as a issue.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- whiddershins 5y ago
  Wait but rockets don’t use fossil fuels, do they?

lsllc 5y ago

"When the last tree has been cut down, the last fish caught, the last river poisoned, only then will we realize that one cannot eat money." https://quoteinvestigator.com/2011/10/20/last-tree-cut/ https://quoteinvestigator.com/2011/10/20/last-tree-cut/

raxxorrax 5y ago
Cash could be eaten at least. Try to eat a bitcoin...

DSingularity 5y ago

At what point will we stop acting as if the government legislates to represent the interests of the constituency who voted for the politicians and not the elites who fund its politicians?

aembleton 5y ago
It's not the government, at this stage it is just the EU Commission who are unelected. MEPs could still reject it.

bserge 5y ago

Don't worry, we peasants can recycle bottles for a few months to offset that. Honestly, I hope some private jets get blown the hell up in the future.

_rpd 5y ago

The actual reason for the exemption is that they cannot impose the tax on non-EU operators, giving the non-EU operators a competitive advantage.

tonyedgecombe 5y ago
The UK does (including back in the good old days when we were still in the EU).
- _rpd 5y ago
  This doesn't appear to be the case (as of Oct 2019) ... > members of the International Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO), including the United Kingdom, are prevented from taxing international aviation fuel, or any proxies for fuel, under the Chicago Convention. https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN00523/SN00523.pdf https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN00...
  - tonyedgecombe 5y ago
    It's not on the fuel, rather the flights: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/rates-and-allowances-for-air-passenger-duty https://www.gov.uk/guidance/rates-and-allowances-for-air-pas...
  - londons_explore 5y ago
    I think it might be time for an ~80 year old convention to be revamped if it kills the environment...
LudwigNagasena 5y ago
They can’t impose a tax on jets that use their airspace?
- magicalhippo 5y ago
  AFAIK that would require changes to the customs area, which might have consequences for other aspects like transiting goods. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_control#Customs_area https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_control#Customs_area

stjohnswarts 5y ago

I think it's basically "oh those poor rich private jet owners, overtaxed and underappreciated!"