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I'm confused. I understand these phones were (very likely) used by the FBI to surveil suspected criminals. What I don't understand is how the FBI got the phon

I'm confused. I understand these phones were (very likely) used by the FBI to surveil suspected criminals. What I don't understand is how the FBI got the phones to those people, and even stranger why those people would trust these phones to be safe?

hooplah 5y ago
One article at the time said they had an informant that convinced top level criminals to use it and it spread from there. Will try to find it, but it was awhile back. edit: https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2021/06/encrypted-messaging-app-anom-fbi-organized-crime.html https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2021/06/encrypted-messag... > The operation came into being after the FBI took down a Canadian-based encryption service called Phantom Secure. Phantom Secure was marketing its services to criminal elements, offering secure communications through the encrypted cellphones that the company provided to syndicates. When the company was dismantled in 2018, the FBI sought to fill the void in the black market for secure criminal communications. To make that happen, the agency recruited a former distributor of Phantom Secure as an informant who, in return for reduced jail time, not only helped develop an encrypted communications system called ANOM, but helped market it to insular networks of criminal buyers.
mr-wendel 5y ago
It's touched on in the article, and https://www.vice.com/en/article/m7e733/anom-fbi-andrew-young-encryption-honeypot https://www.vice.com/en/article/m7e733/anom-fbi-andrew-young... explains it more. The FBI's plan was even more bold. Rather than penetrate an existing encrypted phone company used by criminals, it would secretly start and market its own encrypted phone firm. While criminals used the devices, the FBI would be able to read what they were saying. The challenge was that running a fake encrypted phone company was not that different from running a real encrypted phone company. "We can't just run a good investigation; we have to run a good company," ... It was essentially a problem of marketing, Young said. The FBI needed to imbue this fake company with credibility so that criminals would buy and use the phones.
- chrisco255 5y ago
  The FBI/CIA has a long history of doing this. I met a guy once who ran a fake pro shop in New York to spy on visiting Russians (in a part of town they were known to frequent) during the Cold War.
  - alushta 5y ago
    Sorry, what's a "pro shop"?
    - lordnacho 5y ago
      Isn't that a golf shop? I didn't know it was popular in Russia.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - hoppyhoppy2 5y ago
      >A pro shop is a sporting-goods shop within a public or private-membership amateur sporting activities facility of some kind, most commonly a golf course, where it will typically be located in the country club building. In the case of golf pro shops, such stores usually provide equipment such as golf balls, clubs, shoes, and tees, as well as golf-themed gift items, and sometimes snacks or refreshments. Aside from golf courses, pro shops are also frequently found at bowling alleys, pool and snooker halls, tennis and racquetball courts, ice and roller hockey rinks, and football (soccer) facilities. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pro_shop https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pro_shop
      - mike_hock 5y ago
        And then you hope they divulge their secrets while shopping for sports equipment?
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
tacker2000 5y ago
They probably were introduced into the criminals organisations by members who were “converted” and working as double agents for law enforcement?
fedreserved 5y ago
https://youtu.be/sg1FbtXYvK8 https://youtu.be/sg1FbtXYvK8 Great video break down of what happened but a good true crime channel the mob reporter
ChrisRR 5y ago
Generally speaking, criminals aren't smart people. Otherwise they could probably use their intelligence to earn money through legitimate means
- swiley 5y ago
  Intelligence != capable of socializing. You need both in order to be paid well. I think the belife that criminals are uninteligent is due to 1) Intelligent people recognizing that crime rarely has a positive expected profit 2) There might be more unintelligent people than people who are both intelligent and so incapable of socializing that they can't find work.
  - sudosysgen 5y ago
    As long as you're not at the bottom 2-3 rungs crime can have a huge positive expected profit. It's the lifestyle that sucks which is why intelligent people don't get into it unless something in their life makes it a compelling option.
    - inetknght 5y ago
      It's amazing to me to see how many people run out the tropes that intelligent people don't commit crimes. More accurately, intelligent people don't get caught committing crimes.
      - sodality2 5y ago
        Aka https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias
- rxhernandez 5y ago
  I know a ton of intelligent people in their 30s or 40s at or near the poverty line. Being intelligent doesn't in any way guarantee you good money. If you haven't heard of the just world fallacy, it might be worth looking into.
jellicle 5y ago
Law enforcement agencies created a site to sell the phones, and then had informants and other such people "pass the word" in the targeted communities - "hey, there's this cool site where you can buy a phone that the FBI can't track!". Viral word of mouth marketing.
iratewizard 5y ago
They're not exactly intelligent. I've recovered a drug dealers phone from my airbnb. They use signal and coded language to send messages back and forth, but don't put a lock screen on the phone and leave pictures of their product in gallery.
moftz 5y ago
They captured one of the distributors for a secure phone company they had already taken down. He was trying to start up his own secure messaging app so they basically funded him, added the backdoors, and used his network to market the new device. It's funny to think about but who would you trust more, some silicon valley company making a "secure" messaging app or one made by another criminal? It's not like there is a LinkedIn for international criminals so there's a physical network of trust required and this guy seemed to have had it.

hooplah 5y ago

One article at the time said they had an informant that convinced top level criminals to use it and it spread from there. Will try to find it, but it was awhile back. edit: https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2021/06/encrypted-messaging-app-anom-fbi-organized-crime.html https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2021/06/encrypted-messag... > The operation came into being after the FBI took down a Canadian-based encryption service called Phantom Secure. Phantom Secure was marketing its services to criminal elements, offering secure communications through the encrypted cellphones that the company provided to syndicates. When the company was dismantled in 2018, the FBI sought to fill the void in the black market for secure criminal communications. To make that happen, the agency recruited a former distributor of Phantom Secure as an informant who, in return for reduced jail time, not only helped develop an encrypted communications system called ANOM, but helped market it to insular networks of criminal buyers.

mr-wendel 5y ago

It's touched on in the article, and https://www.vice.com/en/article/m7e733/anom-fbi-andrew-young-encryption-honeypot https://www.vice.com/en/article/m7e733/anom-fbi-andrew-young... explains it more. The FBI's plan was even more bold. Rather than penetrate an existing encrypted phone company used by criminals, it would secretly start and market its own encrypted phone firm. While criminals used the devices, the FBI would be able to read what they were saying. The challenge was that running a fake encrypted phone company was not that different from running a real encrypted phone company. "We can't just run a good investigation; we have to run a good company," ... It was essentially a problem of marketing, Young said. The FBI needed to imbue this fake company with credibility so that criminals would buy and use the phones.

chrisco255 5y ago
The FBI/CIA has a long history of doing this. I met a guy once who ran a fake pro shop in New York to spy on visiting Russians (in a part of town they were known to frequent) during the Cold War.
- alushta 5y ago
  Sorry, what's a "pro shop"?
  - lordnacho 5y ago
    Isn't that a golf shop? I didn't know it was popular in Russia.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - hoppyhoppy2 5y ago
    >A pro shop is a sporting-goods shop within a public or private-membership amateur sporting activities facility of some kind, most commonly a golf course, where it will typically be located in the country club building. In the case of golf pro shops, such stores usually provide equipment such as golf balls, clubs, shoes, and tees, as well as golf-themed gift items, and sometimes snacks or refreshments. Aside from golf courses, pro shops are also frequently found at bowling alleys, pool and snooker halls, tennis and racquetball courts, ice and roller hockey rinks, and football (soccer) facilities. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pro_shop https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pro_shop
    - mike_hock 5y ago
      And then you hope they divulge their secrets while shopping for sports equipment?
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]

tacker2000 5y ago

They probably were introduced into the criminals organisations by members who were “converted” and working as double agents for law enforcement?

fedreserved 5y ago

https://youtu.be/sg1FbtXYvK8 https://youtu.be/sg1FbtXYvK8 Great video break down of what happened but a good true crime channel the mob reporter

ChrisRR 5y ago

Generally speaking, criminals aren't smart people. Otherwise they could probably use their intelligence to earn money through legitimate means

swiley 5y ago
Intelligence != capable of socializing. You need both in order to be paid well. I think the belife that criminals are uninteligent is due to 1) Intelligent people recognizing that crime rarely has a positive expected profit 2) There might be more unintelligent people than people who are both intelligent and so incapable of socializing that they can't find work.
- sudosysgen 5y ago
  As long as you're not at the bottom 2-3 rungs crime can have a huge positive expected profit. It's the lifestyle that sucks which is why intelligent people don't get into it unless something in their life makes it a compelling option.
  - inetknght 5y ago
    It's amazing to me to see how many people run out the tropes that intelligent people don't commit crimes. More accurately, intelligent people don't get caught committing crimes.
    - sodality2 5y ago
      Aka https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias
rxhernandez 5y ago
I know a ton of intelligent people in their 30s or 40s at or near the poverty line. Being intelligent doesn't in any way guarantee you good money. If you haven't heard of the just world fallacy, it might be worth looking into.

jellicle 5y ago

Law enforcement agencies created a site to sell the phones, and then had informants and other such people "pass the word" in the targeted communities - "hey, there's this cool site where you can buy a phone that the FBI can't track!". Viral word of mouth marketing.

iratewizard 5y ago

They're not exactly intelligent. I've recovered a drug dealers phone from my airbnb. They use signal and coded language to send messages back and forth, but don't put a lock screen on the phone and leave pictures of their product in gallery.

moftz 5y ago

They captured one of the distributors for a secure phone company they had already taken down. He was trying to start up his own secure messaging app so they basically funded him, added the backdoors, and used his network to market the new device. It's funny to think about but who would you trust more, some silicon valley company making a "secure" messaging app or one made by another criminal? It's not like there is a LinkedIn for international criminals so there's a physical network of trust required and this guy seemed to have had it.