5 ms·

We started Seam (YC S20) a year ago to take on the problem of programmatic access to physical spaces (apartments, single-family homes, commercial buildings...et

by __sy__ 5y ago

We started Seam (YC S20) a year ago to take on the problem of programmatic access to physical spaces (apartments, single-family homes, commercial buildings...etc). Basically one API that can open any door (smart locks, elevators, commercial buildings...etc). We're still in private beta but feel free to reach out if you're struggling with programmatic access. tbh, it's baffling that in 2021, this problem is still so difficult to solve. As a last point, we generally recommend against key-exhange solutions. From our experience at Sonder, people forget to return the keys and it creates a lot logistical headaches. You then have to re-key the doors...etc.

nradov 5y ago
Whether someone returned the keys or not is largely irrelevant. The prior occupants could have made extra copies.
- __sy__ 5y ago
  I disagree. Whether the prior occupant or the property management company has extra sets of keys, you generally don't want some random prospective tenant out there to have the keys to a unit that you will eventually want to rent out to another individual. For Airbnb's/STR's, same problem; guests returning to a unit much later to carry out illegal activities is rather well documented at this point. Across the board, it's not worth the logistical pain and/or liability risk. In the case of a prior tenant, you generally know who the person is...etc. There are edge cases for sure (e.g. evictions) but it's generally less risky.
  - pedrosorio 5y ago
    You agree with the person you replied to. They are saying guests may return to carry out illegal activity even if they returned the keys because they could have just made copies.
    - __sy__ 5y ago
      My initial comment only said that, in our experience, it's a bad idea to use physical key-exchange system for short-term visits of a physical space. Key copies & key returns being two examples of problematic cases. I only brought up key returns in my initial comment because that's the one that caused the most headaches at Sonder. Most people, it turns out, are honest but also forgetful :) The key-copy potentially exposes you to a lot more liability though...
  - minsc__and__boo 5y ago
    Yep. Bad actors will still find a way circumvent the system, either by copying keys or other means. It's a matter of risk and liability mitigation, not prevention. I'd be curious to know if you're building a reputation system for renters/rentees (users), since that would provide value in such a market to fight it.
    - __sy__ 5y ago
      We are not. This is mostly because we are an infrastructure company that takes care of bridging the air-gap between the devices out there and the software applications that want to use them. Whether the locks are used for hospitality, self-storage access, or rentals is somewhat dependent on the context, and there's a lot of complexity that is unique to each vertical. We think our (beta) customers do a better job at this than we could.
dangerwill 5y ago
Speaking of logistical headaches, what happens with your system when the power goes out in a building?
- __sy__ 5y ago
  Right now we have a multi-protocol hub with cellular and battery back-up. So the short answer is... nothing?
  - vsareto 5y ago
    How much is the technology around this mentioned in the lease agreement? My current complex specified that I had to supply internet and some other things for their smart hub service, although that turned out to not be the case (it's not on my network and works), but it was really weird to have that clause but it not match reality because I was effectively signing a document saying I was responsible for it.
    - __sy__ 5y ago
      is this with SmartRent? My hunch is that they're trying to lower their cellular data costs by having you connect their units to wifi. I had no heard of this being surfaced as a lease-agreement clause though. Fwiw, we haven't run into cases yet where landlords want to leave our hub inside a unit once it has been rented out. I think there are pros/cons to it from a security/privacy standpoint. It can also be very convenient and reduce certain OPEX costs (e.g. insurance). But there are horror stories out there of some of the cheap OEM hubs that get deployed [1] and we (Seam) would want to have a solid conversation internally first to see what's the right approach here. [1] https://techcrunch.com/2019/07/02/smart-home-hub-flaws-unlock-doors/ https://techcrunch.com/2019/07/02/smart-home-hub-flaws-unloc...
      - vsareto 5y ago
        Yeah, SmartRent Here's the wording if you're interested: https://i.imgur.com/qF22wG9.jpg https://i.imgur.com/qF22wG9.jpg Plus even though it says "If you elect to purchase..." half-way down, I basically had no option but to walk away from the lease entirely. They wouldn't remove them, turn them off and replace with a physical lock, or anything else.
baybal2 5y ago
Code locks?
- __sy__ 5y ago
  Yeah that's one option and does present the advantage of knowing which exact individual may have entered the premises (assuming one person = one code). We support most brands/model of smart locks (Yale, Schlage...etc) and standardize code programming across them despite differences that may exist at the protocol layer. Here's our API doc on it if you want to learn more: https://docs.getseam.com/#access-codes https://docs.getseam.com/#access-codes
eni9889 5y ago
How exactly do you guys connect to the locks?
- __sy__ 5y ago
  Depends a bit on the lock or access system. As of right now, most smart locks out there are still using a combination of zigbee, zwave, or bluetooth. This means that if you want remote control, you need to bridge them over to TCP/IP. We have a multiprotocol hub that we've developed for this. The hub itself isn't always required per say. For example, we're starting to see wifi locks. They generally have much lower battery life, but they eliminate the need for additional hardware, which is great. For bluetooth locks (e.g. August), we're looking at also building a single mobile SDK that would work with the various brands. This is really tricky because this requires a lot of reverse engineering.
- EricE 5y ago
  Ironically the company that produces the lockboxes used in the story for this item also has door locks that use the same one time code mechanism (similar to Google Auth). No network connectivity required. I was never interested in putting a lock that had any kind of Internet requirement, but now I'm very interested in this one. Their site if you didn't pick it up from the original article: https://www.igloohome.co/en-us/ https://www.igloohome.co/en-us/
benmanns 5y ago
Do you have a recommendation on a quality smart lock for home use? Some ideal mix of security, style, open/compatible software.
- __sy__ 5y ago
  hm, it's a good question. I (personally) really like Yale devices, but I hate the touchscreens and would prefer something with physical key buttons. I'm also generally against locks that connect directly to wifi because the batteries run out so quickly. As far as the type of lock, mortise locks are so cool but super expensive and most U.S. homes would need to change their doors to have one. Maybe a level lock or a simple dead-bolt does the trick.
  - __sy__ 5y ago
    I thought a bit more about your question. There's surprisingly not much unbiased research out there that correctly points out the pros/cons of each system. I'll try to write something soon and post it.
- EricE 5y ago
  The same company that provided the lockboxes from the original article has smart locks that use the same rotating one time code mechanism - and the locks don't require internet connectivity. A huge plus! https://www.igloohome.co/en-us/ https://www.igloohome.co/en-us/ I have had zero interest in using other smart locks - especially ones that require network connectivity of any sort, but this might be one that would be worth considering.
  - __sy__ 5y ago
    > I have had zero interest in using other smart locks - especially ones that require network connectivity of any sort I think I used to agree with that sentiment, but then I realized that I can remotely control stuff for things like grocery deliveries (which as you point out Igloo can do while technically offline!). To be clear though, just because igloohome's lock is technically offline, it does not mean it's necessarily secure if there is a hole in their API auth.
dempsey 5y ago
I know very large REITs that use Kwikset Smart Keys. They have a dozen keys and just reset to a different of the dozen after every move out. Tens of thousands of homes and never had a problem. It’s security through obscurity. Plus locks are easy to break/bypass for someone that’s motivated to do so. It’s the casual crime of opportunity that you can guard against.
- __sy__ 5y ago
  Are you referring to smart locks with unique codes or the Kwikset solution that consists of pulling out the cylinder and putting a new one in?
  - kevin_thibedeau 5y ago
    SmartKey is a mechanical lock that is rekeyable without removing the cylinder. You unlock with the old key, insert a tool to release the internal wafers, then insert the new key and it repositions the wafers to match the key.
    - __sy__ 5y ago
      oh right! Yeah it's pretty neat actually (for anyone interested[1]). Unfortunately, it does require physical presence/labor (i.e. $$$) by whoever has the master reset tool. For Airbnb's or even self-tours, that's kind of a non-starter. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5MQz3JjZl8&ab_channel=Kwikset https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5MQz3JjZl8&ab_channel=Kwiks...
      - dempsey 5y ago
        When you perform a move out or move in inspection, you change the key. It's super easy. The reset tool can fit in your wallet or glove compartment. It's a big change versus having to change the cylinder as in the past. Having to manage a load of electronic locks is likely more costly. Again, this is long-term rentals not short-term. As for self-tours, they make electronic lockboxes. They've been around forever and used by every MLS.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
jbrun 5y ago
Breather tried to do that out of Montreal and went bankrupt this year, not sure how much overlap there is with your system.
- __sy__ 5y ago
  Yes I spoke to Julien (their founder) back when we started the company. Nice guys. He gave us a lot of insightful tips and frankly wished we would have existed back when they got started. Their business legitimately got killed by covid. ps: your personal site is really interesting.

by __sy__ 5y ago

nradov 5y ago

Whether someone returned the keys or not is largely irrelevant. The prior occupants could have made extra copies.

__sy__ 5y ago
I disagree. Whether the prior occupant or the property management company has extra sets of keys, you generally don't want some random prospective tenant out there to have the keys to a unit that you will eventually want to rent out to another individual. For Airbnb's/STR's, same problem; guests returning to a unit much later to carry out illegal activities is rather well documented at this point. Across the board, it's not worth the logistical pain and/or liability risk. In the case of a prior tenant, you generally know who the person is...etc. There are edge cases for sure (e.g. evictions) but it's generally less risky.
- pedrosorio 5y ago
  You agree with the person you replied to. They are saying guests may return to carry out illegal activity even if they returned the keys because they could have just made copies.
  - __sy__ 5y ago
    My initial comment only said that, in our experience, it's a bad idea to use physical key-exchange system for short-term visits of a physical space. Key copies & key returns being two examples of problematic cases. I only brought up key returns in my initial comment because that's the one that caused the most headaches at Sonder. Most people, it turns out, are honest but also forgetful :) The key-copy potentially exposes you to a lot more liability though...
- minsc__and__boo 5y ago
  Yep. Bad actors will still find a way circumvent the system, either by copying keys or other means. It's a matter of risk and liability mitigation, not prevention. I'd be curious to know if you're building a reputation system for renters/rentees (users), since that would provide value in such a market to fight it.
  - __sy__ 5y ago
    We are not. This is mostly because we are an infrastructure company that takes care of bridging the air-gap between the devices out there and the software applications that want to use them. Whether the locks are used for hospitality, self-storage access, or rentals is somewhat dependent on the context, and there's a lot of complexity that is unique to each vertical. We think our (beta) customers do a better job at this than we could.

dangerwill 5y ago

Speaking of logistical headaches, what happens with your system when the power goes out in a building?

__sy__ 5y ago
Right now we have a multi-protocol hub with cellular and battery back-up. So the short answer is... nothing?
- vsareto 5y ago
  How much is the technology around this mentioned in the lease agreement? My current complex specified that I had to supply internet and some other things for their smart hub service, although that turned out to not be the case (it's not on my network and works), but it was really weird to have that clause but it not match reality because I was effectively signing a document saying I was responsible for it.
  - __sy__ 5y ago
    is this with SmartRent? My hunch is that they're trying to lower their cellular data costs by having you connect their units to wifi. I had no heard of this being surfaced as a lease-agreement clause though. Fwiw, we haven't run into cases yet where landlords want to leave our hub inside a unit once it has been rented out. I think there are pros/cons to it from a security/privacy standpoint. It can also be very convenient and reduce certain OPEX costs (e.g. insurance). But there are horror stories out there of some of the cheap OEM hubs that get deployed [1] and we (Seam) would want to have a solid conversation internally first to see what's the right approach here. [1] https://techcrunch.com/2019/07/02/smart-home-hub-flaws-unlock-doors/ https://techcrunch.com/2019/07/02/smart-home-hub-flaws-unloc...
    - vsareto 5y ago
      Yeah, SmartRent Here's the wording if you're interested: https://i.imgur.com/qF22wG9.jpg https://i.imgur.com/qF22wG9.jpg Plus even though it says "If you elect to purchase..." half-way down, I basically had no option but to walk away from the lease entirely. They wouldn't remove them, turn them off and replace with a physical lock, or anything else.

baybal2 5y ago

Code locks?

__sy__ 5y ago
Yeah that's one option and does present the advantage of knowing which exact individual may have entered the premises (assuming one person = one code). We support most brands/model of smart locks (Yale, Schlage...etc) and standardize code programming across them despite differences that may exist at the protocol layer. Here's our API doc on it if you want to learn more: https://docs.getseam.com/#access-codes https://docs.getseam.com/#access-codes

eni9889 5y ago

How exactly do you guys connect to the locks?

__sy__ 5y ago
Depends a bit on the lock or access system. As of right now, most smart locks out there are still using a combination of zigbee, zwave, or bluetooth. This means that if you want remote control, you need to bridge them over to TCP/IP. We have a multiprotocol hub that we've developed for this. The hub itself isn't always required per say. For example, we're starting to see wifi locks. They generally have much lower battery life, but they eliminate the need for additional hardware, which is great. For bluetooth locks (e.g. August), we're looking at also building a single mobile SDK that would work with the various brands. This is really tricky because this requires a lot of reverse engineering.
EricE 5y ago
Ironically the company that produces the lockboxes used in the story for this item also has door locks that use the same one time code mechanism (similar to Google Auth). No network connectivity required. I was never interested in putting a lock that had any kind of Internet requirement, but now I'm very interested in this one. Their site if you didn't pick it up from the original article: https://www.igloohome.co/en-us/ https://www.igloohome.co/en-us/

benmanns 5y ago

Do you have a recommendation on a quality smart lock for home use? Some ideal mix of security, style, open/compatible software.

__sy__ 5y ago
hm, it's a good question. I (personally) really like Yale devices, but I hate the touchscreens and would prefer something with physical key buttons. I'm also generally against locks that connect directly to wifi because the batteries run out so quickly. As far as the type of lock, mortise locks are so cool but super expensive and most U.S. homes would need to change their doors to have one. Maybe a level lock or a simple dead-bolt does the trick.
- __sy__ 5y ago
  I thought a bit more about your question. There's surprisingly not much unbiased research out there that correctly points out the pros/cons of each system. I'll try to write something soon and post it.
EricE 5y ago
The same company that provided the lockboxes from the original article has smart locks that use the same rotating one time code mechanism - and the locks don't require internet connectivity. A huge plus! https://www.igloohome.co/en-us/ https://www.igloohome.co/en-us/ I have had zero interest in using other smart locks - especially ones that require network connectivity of any sort, but this might be one that would be worth considering.
- __sy__ 5y ago
  > I have had zero interest in using other smart locks - especially ones that require network connectivity of any sort I think I used to agree with that sentiment, but then I realized that I can remotely control stuff for things like grocery deliveries (which as you point out Igloo can do while technically offline!). To be clear though, just because igloohome's lock is technically offline, it does not mean it's necessarily secure if there is a hole in their API auth.

dempsey 5y ago

I know very large REITs that use Kwikset Smart Keys. They have a dozen keys and just reset to a different of the dozen after every move out. Tens of thousands of homes and never had a problem. It’s security through obscurity. Plus locks are easy to break/bypass for someone that’s motivated to do so. It’s the casual crime of opportunity that you can guard against.

__sy__ 5y ago
Are you referring to smart locks with unique codes or the Kwikset solution that consists of pulling out the cylinder and putting a new one in?
- kevin_thibedeau 5y ago
  SmartKey is a mechanical lock that is rekeyable without removing the cylinder. You unlock with the old key, insert a tool to release the internal wafers, then insert the new key and it repositions the wafers to match the key.
  - __sy__ 5y ago
    oh right! Yeah it's pretty neat actually (for anyone interested[1]). Unfortunately, it does require physical presence/labor (i.e. $$$) by whoever has the master reset tool. For Airbnb's or even self-tours, that's kind of a non-starter. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5MQz3JjZl8&ab_channel=Kwikset https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5MQz3JjZl8&ab_channel=Kwiks...
    - dempsey 5y ago
      When you perform a move out or move in inspection, you change the key. It's super easy. The reset tool can fit in your wallet or glove compartment. It's a big change versus having to change the cylinder as in the past. Having to manage a load of electronic locks is likely more costly. Again, this is long-term rentals not short-term. As for self-tours, they make electronic lockboxes. They've been around forever and used by every MLS.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

jbrun 5y ago

Breather tried to do that out of Montreal and went bankrupt this year, not sure how much overlap there is with your system.

__sy__ 5y ago
Yes I spoke to Julien (their founder) back when we started the company. Nice guys. He gave us a lot of insightful tips and frankly wished we would have existed back when they got started. Their business legitimately got killed by covid. ps: your personal site is really interesting.