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Yep. And everyone was afraid of all these drag and drop tools that generated Java code. "You just have to know UML!" was the promise. I'm reminded of that to

Yep. And everyone was afraid of all these drag and drop tools that generated Java code. "You just have to know UML!" was the promise. I'm reminded of that today in the rare instance when I run into the decision makers that are convinced GUI data engineering tools are the future.

chii 5y ago
> the decision makers that are convinced GUI data engineering tools are the future. The same train of thought leads to the idea that you can produce good software with mediocre developers by using processes, coding rules and checklists and "development methodology" like agile.
- zozbot234 5y ago
  To be fair, Agile is not about leveraging mediocre developers - it's about enabling a handful of your best, most experienced hackers and architects (the fabled "two-pizzas team") to work under the best possible conditions, because the proponents of Agile had internalized the lesson that trying to scale up large teams of mediocre devs is a fool's errand.
  - raducu 5y ago
    Agile is what managers make it to be. To A LOT OF THEM it is about not doing any planning, writing zero specifications, using vague language for requirements, comparing performance of apples and oranges, "self-help"/motivational, justification to pressure those below and not bother with those above and so on and on. But to most, it is just putting lipstick on the same old pig. Did I mention the whole training, coaches and lango flinging industry?
  - Chris2048 5y ago
    Agile in it's original form - yes. Many everyday biz versions of agile et al - No. Fundamentally, dev is something to negotiate with, cooperatively, versus commanding "do what I say"-style. Many businesses are unable or unwilling to do away with this top-down hierarchy, hence agile will never succeed there. The agile they practise instead is "Agile, but without actually relinquishing top-down control". TBH, I think what we are really missing is for the development team to be a contract team (ala Accenture) that can implement agile via official mediums e.g. pushback via contractually negotiation, backlog prioritisation via contract pricing ("we can do that, but this is what it'll cost").
matwood 5y ago
The missing piece is people forget that the bar for software also rises with the ease of creation. We do have very capable drag and drop CRUD generators now (not quite the same, but I still have a soft spot for VB5). But, what's expected, even out of a simple CRUD form, has risen.

chii 5y ago

> the decision makers that are convinced GUI data engineering tools are the future. The same train of thought leads to the idea that you can produce good software with mediocre developers by using processes, coding rules and checklists and "development methodology" like agile.

zozbot234 5y ago
To be fair, Agile is not about leveraging mediocre developers - it's about enabling a handful of your best, most experienced hackers and architects (the fabled "two-pizzas team") to work under the best possible conditions, because the proponents of Agile had internalized the lesson that trying to scale up large teams of mediocre devs is a fool's errand.
- raducu 5y ago
  Agile is what managers make it to be. To A LOT OF THEM it is about not doing any planning, writing zero specifications, using vague language for requirements, comparing performance of apples and oranges, "self-help"/motivational, justification to pressure those below and not bother with those above and so on and on. But to most, it is just putting lipstick on the same old pig. Did I mention the whole training, coaches and lango flinging industry?
- Chris2048 5y ago
  Agile in it's original form - yes. Many everyday biz versions of agile et al - No. Fundamentally, dev is something to negotiate with, cooperatively, versus commanding "do what I say"-style. Many businesses are unable or unwilling to do away with this top-down hierarchy, hence agile will never succeed there. The agile they practise instead is "Agile, but without actually relinquishing top-down control". TBH, I think what we are really missing is for the development team to be a contract team (ala Accenture) that can implement agile via official mediums e.g. pushback via contractually negotiation, backlog prioritisation via contract pricing ("we can do that, but this is what it'll cost").

matwood 5y ago

The missing piece is people forget that the bar for software also rises with the ease of creation. We do have very capable drag and drop CRUD generators now (not quite the same, but I still have a soft spot for VB5). But, what's expected, even out of a simple CRUD form, has risen.