7 ms·

Do the children have to pay off the bills of the parent? That doesn’t seem reasonable to me. It sounds like the best thing to do before getting too old is to tr

Do the children have to pay off the bills of the parent? That doesn’t seem reasonable to me. It sounds like the best thing to do before getting too old is to transfer all your assets out so that if you die you won’t have it robbed by hospitals, etc.

knz_ 5y ago
No, but they can legally take everything the estate has and leave the children with no inheritance.
bpodgursky 5y ago
No, children aren't responsible for bills. It can only come from your estate. Transferring assets isn't crazy but you do need to be careful if you want to do it in a non-taxable manner (you can't just give your kid $500k cash without them counting it as income).
- drewg123 5y ago
  I could be wrong, but I thought that the $500K would not count as income for them, but would deduct from your lifetime estate tax exclusion. See https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/taxes/gift-tax-rate https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/taxes/gift-tax-rate
- memling 5y ago
  > No, children aren't responsible for bills. It can only come from your estate. I think it's worth noting that while this may be true if you're dead, it's not the case when you're still alive.[1] Filial responsibility laws mean that adult children can be legally required to pay their impoverished parents' medical bills. The above cites a case where a man was required by the courts to pay $93,000 for his mother's rehabilitation.[2] From what I've read, Pennsylvania may be particularly onerous compared to other states, but it's not a slam dunk kids won't be on the hook. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filial_responsibility_laws https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filial_responsibility_laws [2]: https://abcnews.go.com/Business/pennsylvania-son-stuck-moms-93000-nursing-home-bill/story?id=16405807 https://abcnews.go.com/Business/pennsylvania-son-stuck-moms-...
  - OldTimeCoffee 5y ago
    It's not cut and dry and it requires the company or state to sue. So 'can be' is very unlikely because the laws are not typically enforced. Federal law can also prohibit companies from collecting. More info is here: https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/your-obligation-pay-parents-nursing-home-bill.html https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/your-obligation-pay-... Because Wikipedia only talks about their existence, not a discussion of them.
    - memling 5y ago
      > It's not cut and dry and it requires the company or state to sue. I have to imagine that it's pretty rare, and I don't think it's appropriate to generalize from what appears to be a pretty sensationalist case. I expect the laws are usually structured to ensure that children don't fleece their parents out of money and turn them effectively into wards of the state, etc. It doesn't seem unreasonable to me that states would encourage families to take care of each other, though PA seems a bit of an outlier in this regard.
      - OldTimeCoffee 5y ago
        It's incredibly rare and PA is absolutely an outlier. That's why the case that is mentioned was newsworthy. Typically when it's used it's to recover money in cases of fraud. For example, where the parent or child conspires to hide money from the state to avoid paying for care. To the best of my knowledge, PA is one of the only states that allows private entities to sue. Some states are like Ohio where it's a criminal statute, so only the state has standing to bring charges. All said, don't get legal advice on the internet, this is an armchair discussion by laypeople. As an aside, I don't see why the children should have any specific burden to take care of their parents medical expenses now that we have Medicare and Social Security. We've decided it's better to have all of society to take care of our elderly rather than tie it to their children's ability to pay.
- Rebelgecko 5y ago
  I believe the gift giver is the one who is responsible for any taxes (beyond the $11m threshold). Although if you give gifts as a way to get around debts it might cause issues
- klodolph 5y ago
  This depends on jurisdiction and the nature of the bills. Pennsylvania has filial support laws which mean that children can be held directly responsible for the medical expenses of their parents. This requires that Pennsylvania have jurisdiction over the children, of course.
  - CameronNemo 5y ago
    I've heard that only the parent needs to live in PA.
    - klodolph 5y ago
      This is incorrect. The parent does not need to live in PA at all, but a suit needs to be brought against the defendant to make them pay, and therefore the court needs to have jurisdiction over that person in order for the lawsuit to succeed.
  - basisword 5y ago
    Is this really true? American health care is a horror show but this is possibly the most messed up thing I’ve heard.
    - rootusrootus 5y ago
      True in some states. Also not just the US. Germany also seems to have some version of filial responsibility.
    - klodolph 5y ago
      Filial support laws are not even remotely unique to the US, and it's only true in certain states. Pennsylvania is the most notorious. France: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obligation_alimentaire_en_France https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obligation_alimentaire_en_Fran... Germany: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elternunterhalt https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elternunterhalt Asia has a ton, I'm sure.
      - 5y ago
- FireBeyond 5y ago
  No, they're not. But hospitals, many times, will absolutely imply that they are when a parent dies in hospital. And if they do that well enough to have you make a payment, most legal systems will consider that acceptance of full financial responsibility on your part.
  - prirun 5y ago
    My Mom died in 2014, in a local hospital. Several years after her death, I received a bill from that same hospital, addressed to her but sent to my address, for $9K. The kicker is, the "service date" on the bill was 1996! I ignored it since a) she had died; b) she had died in their hospital, so they obviously knew; c) her estate had settled years ago; d) she never received this bill while she was alive. Hospital billing practice are pretty horrible. If a more compliant person had received this bill, they might have paid it, even though there is no way it was legit.
- ixacto 5y ago
  Yes you can. It just come from your lifetime gift tax exemption. https://smartasset.com/retirement/gift-tax-limits https://smartasset.com/retirement/gift-tax-limits
nradov 5y ago
It depends on the state. Some states have filial responsibility laws which require adult children to support indigent parents. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filial_responsibility_laws?wprov=sfla1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filial_responsibility_laws?wpr...
- cherryturnover 5y ago
  >In 2012, the media reported the case of John Pittas, whose mother had received care in a skilled nursing facility in Pennsylvania after an accident and then moved to Greece. The nursing home sued her son directly, before even trying to collect from Medicaid. A court in Pennsylvania ruled that the son must pay, according to the Pennsylvania filial responsibility law That is literally inheriting debt. That should be illegal, yet almost half the country allows this.
  - klodolph 5y ago
    It's mostly just Pennsylvania. There are something like 29 different states with some kind of filial support laws on the books, but Pennsylvania is the crazy one.
- runawaybottle 5y ago
  Woah. And what if you had a terrible relationship with these people? What if you worked your whole life to get the fuck away from them? This reminds me of tobacco tax to pay for children’s healthcare initiative. As if the responsibility sits directly with cigarette smokers. It sits on all of us, not one person. Impoverished elderly people that need medical care should receive aid from the state indiscriminately where we all foot the bill.
- plank_time 5y ago
  This is jaw dropping. How is this legal at all? It sounds like a good startup. Do background checks on homeless people, see if they have any living relatives, and if so you can house them in a nursing home and charge the relatives.
  - 5y ago
813594 5y ago
While this strategy helps spend down to qualify for assistance near the end, all states have a lookback period that can disqualify you for state aide, and most look back periods are 60 months. https://www.medicaidplanningassistance.org/medicaid-look-back-period/ https://www.medicaidplanningassistance.org/medicaid-look-bac...
irrational 5y ago
No, they do not. However, the companies in question still might try to get the children to pay up in the hopes the children are ignorant that they are not responsible for their parent’s debts.
dharmab 5y ago
It depends on the bill and the state laws. E.g. debt collectors will use misleading and predatory tactics to get the children to pay "a token sum" that then makes the children liable for an entire debt.
treyfitty 5y ago
Not directly. But if the hospital takes money out of the estate directly, this is in effect taking away from a child's inheritance. Thus, one could interpret this to be "the children paying for the bills"

knz_ 5y ago

No, but they can legally take everything the estate has and leave the children with no inheritance.

bpodgursky 5y ago

No, children aren't responsible for bills. It can only come from your estate. Transferring assets isn't crazy but you do need to be careful if you want to do it in a non-taxable manner (you can't just give your kid $500k cash without them counting it as income).

drewg123 5y ago
I could be wrong, but I thought that the $500K would not count as income for them, but would deduct from your lifetime estate tax exclusion. See https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/taxes/gift-tax-rate https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/taxes/gift-tax-rate
memling 5y ago
> No, children aren't responsible for bills. It can only come from your estate. I think it's worth noting that while this may be true if you're dead, it's not the case when you're still alive.[1] Filial responsibility laws mean that adult children can be legally required to pay their impoverished parents' medical bills. The above cites a case where a man was required by the courts to pay $93,000 for his mother's rehabilitation.[2] From what I've read, Pennsylvania may be particularly onerous compared to other states, but it's not a slam dunk kids won't be on the hook. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filial_responsibility_laws https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filial_responsibility_laws [2]: https://abcnews.go.com/Business/pennsylvania-son-stuck-moms-93000-nursing-home-bill/story?id=16405807 https://abcnews.go.com/Business/pennsylvania-son-stuck-moms-...
- OldTimeCoffee 5y ago
  It's not cut and dry and it requires the company or state to sue. So 'can be' is very unlikely because the laws are not typically enforced. Federal law can also prohibit companies from collecting. More info is here: https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/your-obligation-pay-parents-nursing-home-bill.html https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/your-obligation-pay-... Because Wikipedia only talks about their existence, not a discussion of them.
  - memling 5y ago
    > It's not cut and dry and it requires the company or state to sue. I have to imagine that it's pretty rare, and I don't think it's appropriate to generalize from what appears to be a pretty sensationalist case. I expect the laws are usually structured to ensure that children don't fleece their parents out of money and turn them effectively into wards of the state, etc. It doesn't seem unreasonable to me that states would encourage families to take care of each other, though PA seems a bit of an outlier in this regard.
    - OldTimeCoffee 5y ago
      It's incredibly rare and PA is absolutely an outlier. That's why the case that is mentioned was newsworthy. Typically when it's used it's to recover money in cases of fraud. For example, where the parent or child conspires to hide money from the state to avoid paying for care. To the best of my knowledge, PA is one of the only states that allows private entities to sue. Some states are like Ohio where it's a criminal statute, so only the state has standing to bring charges. All said, don't get legal advice on the internet, this is an armchair discussion by laypeople. As an aside, I don't see why the children should have any specific burden to take care of their parents medical expenses now that we have Medicare and Social Security. We've decided it's better to have all of society to take care of our elderly rather than tie it to their children's ability to pay.
Rebelgecko 5y ago
I believe the gift giver is the one who is responsible for any taxes (beyond the $11m threshold). Although if you give gifts as a way to get around debts it might cause issues
klodolph 5y ago
This depends on jurisdiction and the nature of the bills. Pennsylvania has filial support laws which mean that children can be held directly responsible for the medical expenses of their parents. This requires that Pennsylvania have jurisdiction over the children, of course.
- CameronNemo 5y ago
  I've heard that only the parent needs to live in PA.
  - klodolph 5y ago
    This is incorrect. The parent does not need to live in PA at all, but a suit needs to be brought against the defendant to make them pay, and therefore the court needs to have jurisdiction over that person in order for the lawsuit to succeed.
- basisword 5y ago
  Is this really true? American health care is a horror show but this is possibly the most messed up thing I’ve heard.
  - rootusrootus 5y ago
    True in some states. Also not just the US. Germany also seems to have some version of filial responsibility.
  - klodolph 5y ago
    Filial support laws are not even remotely unique to the US, and it's only true in certain states. Pennsylvania is the most notorious. France: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obligation_alimentaire_en_France https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obligation_alimentaire_en_Fran... Germany: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elternunterhalt https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elternunterhalt Asia has a ton, I'm sure.
    - 5y ago
FireBeyond 5y ago
No, they're not. But hospitals, many times, will absolutely imply that they are when a parent dies in hospital. And if they do that well enough to have you make a payment, most legal systems will consider that acceptance of full financial responsibility on your part.
- prirun 5y ago
  My Mom died in 2014, in a local hospital. Several years after her death, I received a bill from that same hospital, addressed to her but sent to my address, for $9K. The kicker is, the "service date" on the bill was 1996! I ignored it since a) she had died; b) she had died in their hospital, so they obviously knew; c) her estate had settled years ago; d) she never received this bill while she was alive. Hospital billing practice are pretty horrible. If a more compliant person had received this bill, they might have paid it, even though there is no way it was legit.
ixacto 5y ago
Yes you can. It just come from your lifetime gift tax exemption. https://smartasset.com/retirement/gift-tax-limits https://smartasset.com/retirement/gift-tax-limits

nradov 5y ago

It depends on the state. Some states have filial responsibility laws which require adult children to support indigent parents. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filial_responsibility_laws?wprov=sfla1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filial_responsibility_laws?wpr...

cherryturnover 5y ago
>In 2012, the media reported the case of John Pittas, whose mother had received care in a skilled nursing facility in Pennsylvania after an accident and then moved to Greece. The nursing home sued her son directly, before even trying to collect from Medicaid. A court in Pennsylvania ruled that the son must pay, according to the Pennsylvania filial responsibility law That is literally inheriting debt. That should be illegal, yet almost half the country allows this.
- klodolph 5y ago
  It's mostly just Pennsylvania. There are something like 29 different states with some kind of filial support laws on the books, but Pennsylvania is the crazy one.
runawaybottle 5y ago
Woah. And what if you had a terrible relationship with these people? What if you worked your whole life to get the fuck away from them? This reminds me of tobacco tax to pay for children’s healthcare initiative. As if the responsibility sits directly with cigarette smokers. It sits on all of us, not one person. Impoverished elderly people that need medical care should receive aid from the state indiscriminately where we all foot the bill.
plank_time 5y ago
This is jaw dropping. How is this legal at all? It sounds like a good startup. Do background checks on homeless people, see if they have any living relatives, and if so you can house them in a nursing home and charge the relatives.
- 5y ago

813594 5y ago

While this strategy helps spend down to qualify for assistance near the end, all states have a lookback period that can disqualify you for state aide, and most look back periods are 60 months. https://www.medicaidplanningassistance.org/medicaid-look-back-period/ https://www.medicaidplanningassistance.org/medicaid-look-bac...

irrational 5y ago

No, they do not. However, the companies in question still might try to get the children to pay up in the hopes the children are ignorant that they are not responsible for their parent’s debts.

dharmab 5y ago

It depends on the bill and the state laws. E.g. debt collectors will use misleading and predatory tactics to get the children to pay "a token sum" that then makes the children liable for an entire debt.

treyfitty 5y ago

Not directly. But if the hospital takes money out of the estate directly, this is in effect taking away from a child's inheritance. Thus, one could interpret this to be "the children paying for the bills"