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I went and did the other side, living nontraditionally and trying to be what I wanted. I just applied for a regular job. Because to be honest, it’s gonna be pr

I went and did the other side, living nontraditionally and trying to be what I wanted. I just applied for a regular job. Because to be honest, it’s gonna be pretty sweet having a fat bank account, even if it’ll take till I’m 50 to have FU money. My current hypothesis is that the team is all that matters. The work can be the most boring, crud-type work. As long as you’re working with people you like on something vaguely interesting, who cares? 20yo me would be mortified to hear myself say this, but the chances of either of us influencing the world is quite small. I’m happy I threw all of my effort into doing something I wanted, but my honest answer is that you’re not really missing out on much. Relax and enjoy yourself. Most days, I end up wishing I’d had kids 5 years ago. It was nice to prioritize myself, but you can’t prioritize a family you never focused on building. (I had no idea I even wanted a family or that it was important to me until about… 29?) I guess my point is, the “relax and enjoy yourself” mentality isn’t so bad. No one will probably remember us the way they’ll remember pg. But I’ve helped thousands of devs directly, whether in DMs or by contributing code, and I think I only care whether those folks might remember me. So that’s the area you can really make an impact: on the people around you, in your day to day life. Maybe I’ll wake up in a few years and realize this is a terrible mistake, but that seems unlikely.

jkhdigital 5y ago
Amen. I’m a sober alcoholic, and if I died tomorrow I’d be content knowing that I did at least one worthwhile thing with the time I had: I helped another alcoholic, a 23 year old man who tried to kill himself shortly before I met him, get sober and start working and move out of his mom’s basement and stand up straight and look other people in the eyes and then go and help a few other people stop drinking. Not a single professional accomplishment is within an order of magnitude of that level of fulfillment. Just help one f*cking person become more than they thought they could be and you’ll die happy—why didn’t they tell us it was this simple?
- 6510 5y ago
  The whole society seems designed top down to keep us fighting and arguing, live at the expense of others is the mantra. It seems it took a lot of engineering to get us this far from our natural state of caring. The Chinese seem to indoctrinate with a slightly different model where you are to believe society comes before the individual. The sensible model seems rather obvious: One has to organize their own show before one is of [much] use to others. Until that time one should give the others the opportunity to help you with that and be grateful. Its not an embarrassment if you plan to do the same.
  - ehnto 5y ago
    There has been a cost to individualism no doubt. There are a few culutures where, generally, the community comes first. I think you can cultivate that in a small way though, by taking part in volunteer programs in your community. I know it's a cliche recommendation but if you are feeling like we lack community then it's probably just because of how easy it is to separate yourself from it.
  - nradov 5y ago
    Elevating society above the individual stifles innovation and leads to stagnation.
    - necovek 5y ago
      References?
- BLKNSLVR 5y ago
  That brings up an old memory for me: I used to work as a lifeguard at a pool for three or four years as I was going through uni. Nothing glamorous in that work, it's just very loosely managing young males showing off in front of young females. Except this one time some kid jumped in the deep end and whilst he surfaced, he couldn't reach the top of the side of the pool in order to stay at the surface, he was clutching at the side with that unmistakeable, wide-eyed panic face. I reached down, pulled him out, and he ran off to his mum / friends / whatever, I never saw him again. Was a three second interaction from seeing it to him being back on dry land. Possibly the best thing I've ever done in my life, and it was in my late teens. I get satisfaction from my intellectuality and general smarts, but for it really brighten my soul, it has to positively affect other people. The bottom line is a demanding bitch and no matter how much you give it will ask for ever more. A positive change in a fellow human being is intrinsically, life-affirmingly satisfying; even just a single-serve in a lifetime.
  - 0-_-0 5y ago
    I vaguely recall a study where they took suicidal people and employed them as lifeguards with great results.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - josephg 5y ago
      It makes a lot of sense. There’s two types of depression (though their names elude me). There’s depression where there’s something wrong with your brain - and despite having a great life, your brain makes sad chemicals instead of happy ones. And then there’s depression where you feel sad because your life is missing purpose and meaning. Ie, being the person you are with the life you have, depression is a healthy response. Most depression is the second type. So I’m not surprised giving people purpose shows great results. It would have for me, too.
  - malydok 5y ago
    It's an interesting fact that one could save many lives by donating to charities and yet wouldn't feel quite the same way about it. Clicking "donate" on a screen and filling in credit card details isn't as thrilling an experience as yours even if it achieves no less.
- TriNetra 5y ago
  When we do a selfless act we experience the joy from our soul – that's what we're truly are: an eternal, complete drop in the infinite ocean of pure consciousness. Our ego (which makes us feel that we're separate from others) binds us in layers and layers of conditioning, of labels and engages us in selfish acts, which only brings suffering and stress. Read about this discourse from Buddha to understand what we're missing – The Fruits of the Contemplative Life: https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/DN/DN02.html https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/DN/DN02.html
- FreeSpeech 5y ago
  > why didn’t they tell us it was this simple? Because it has an intangible effect on GDP. Our culture optimises for creating obedient worker drones who will capitulate to authority. Fostering empathy for others and leading children to a life of fulfilment conflicts with establishment incentives.
- sokoloff 5y ago
  > why didn’t they tell us it was this simple? I suspect different people probably did try to tell me versions of that, but it’s very hard to learn deep feelings from hearing other people talk or reading their words as compared to living it yourself. You can read about others’ heartbreak but you learn from your first few breakups. You can read about having kids but nothing prepares you for the deep feelings of parenting. Maybe being doomed to repeat the learnings others have had is part of the point?
- castlecrasher2 5y ago
  >why didn’t they tell us it was this simple? Say what you want about the ills that come with it, but religion has been telling us this since the dawn of time.
- atatatat 5y ago
  Thank you.
- tailspin2019 5y ago
  Amazing. Inspiring. Thanks for writing this.
onion2k 5y ago
I just applied for a regular job. Because to be honest, it’s gonna be pretty sweet having a fat bank account, even if it’ll take till I’m 50 to have FU money. You will never have FU money working a regular job.
- xapata 5y ago
  Compounding growth does fine.
  - kebman 5y ago
    Assuming the Fed keeps printing more.
    - xapata 5y ago
      Yeah, yeah, I'm assuming the US government stays solvent.
      - atatatat 5y ago
        The 50%-300% increase in market values of tangible assets in that country this year is assuming the opposite.
- PaulRobinson 5y ago
  That's just nonsense advice. The entire point of retirement savings is that at some point you can stop working. FU money is just about timing. You can change that timing. 1. Reduce outgoings. It's easier to have FU money if the amount you need to be able to say "FU" is smaller, because you've perfected the art of living on a little less than most. Most people's outgoings grow to meet their incomes: resist that. You don't need to recycle everything you touch and grow your own food to make good headway here. 2. Take your age, halve it. That number is the percentage of your gross income you should be putting away each month into retirement and savings if you haven't started already. Yes, it's hard at the beginning, so have it happen automatically through employer deductions (common in the UK for pensions, not sure about elsewhere), or on payday move a %age automatically into a savings or investment account so you get used to living without it. I still struggle to do this but am getting better. 3. Learn about compound returns a little more. $500 a month at 8% (typical market returns recently), and over 10 years gives you back $92k - a $32k profit on the $60k you put in. Whether that's FU money is dependent on whether your outgoings are $50k/year or $150k/year. Keep going for another 10 years, and you're not far off $300k which isn't bad for the $120k it cost you. Think you can keep going into your fifties and do another decade? $750k off the back of a $180k investment. Is this not FU money yet? You're the problem, not the regular job. Your chances of having FU money working a regular job are far, far higher than having it any other way. It's just too many people are trying to retire in their 20s and not getting it: that's not a very likely outcome, no matter how hard you work or how smart you are.
sangnoir 5y ago
> No one will probably remember us the way they’ll remember pg. The older I get, the more the whole "legacy"/impact issue seems overhyped; pg (and everyone alive today) is not going to be remembered for long either; perhaps 2 more generations, and it's a wrap. No one is remembered forever. That thought keeps me rooted firmly in the present and on the immediate impact I can have. I have never been into poetry, but both versions of Ozymandias (Shelley's[1] and Smith's[2]) deeply resonated with me. I wholly agree with you, your impact, and your legacy, is with the people around you, in the here and now. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozymandias https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozymandias 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozymandias_(Smith) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozymandias_(Smith)
- leoc 5y ago
  This is all broadly true, but the fact that 'Ozymandias' is frickin' Ramesses II does undermine the message of the poems a bit. Or more generously, it adds another level of depth to the point that someone's future fame can't easily be predicted by looking at their current fame.
  - vidarh 5y ago
    But even Ramessess II is not really "remembered" by more than a tiny handful of people. Most people who recognize the name know nothing about him, and most would never come up with the name unprompted. Most knowledge about him is lost. We know him in the very abstract, not all much different to how we know the Ozymandias of the poems. Does that level of being remembered matter?
    - leoc 5y ago
      To the extent that being remembered after your death matters at all, then absolutely, yes. To go back to the original point of comparison, many more people know Ramesses II now than have ever heard of Paul Graham, and this is when pg is still alive and probably near the all-time peak of his fame. There's a relatively small, but not that small, number of people who can name some of Ramesses II's monuments or other achievements without looking them up. And there are many millions of people who are vaguely aware that he was one of the GOAT Pharaohs, and that was more or less the core objective of all the monument-building.
Juliate 5y ago
> My current hypothesis is that the team is all that matters. That's me 6 years ago. After having invested too much on the type of work/mission and found that this was not it. From the past 6 years and 2 companies where I tried this hypothesis, I can say that the work _structure_ (chaos, or hyper-bureaucratic, or anywhere in between, going either way) and the work _mission_ do matter a lot too in the end. It's an intricate balance. The work _structure_ mandates how your team will jell, or dismantle, over time and tasks. The thousands of paper cuts due to the transformations from start to scale to profitable and compliant can really turn mad the unprepared. The work _mission_ mandates how much/long you will endure the paper cuts. But yes, the team and the people is still what you should invest on: that's the only area where your loyalty matters, if only because that's only there that you can find reciprocity. The company, the structure, the mission are just some paper fiction that pay and pass; and there's thousands of them. Moreover, these days, most of the missions (in IT at least) are even more ludicrous compared to the existential challenge that's ahead of us. So yes, we better relax, enjoy the people around us in the settings we have, be nice and do what's sensible to do.
xwolfi 5y ago
I smiled at "changing the world". It's very funny we think about the world as if it needed changing, had the ability to change in a lifetime or that it was remotely interested in our own opinion of it. It's probable most people in the world, the majority being Chinese and Indian, would strongly disagree with what you think it should be. If not, it's the africans and the europeans who would. I have a huge amount of agency in my life, simply because I can live with little money, enjoy obeying and building stuff in teams, can be useful and accept sacrifice, so I moved across the world to work in investment banks and it's striking how similar yet different people are, and hows silly 20-something are in speaking of changing "the world". Something I hear a lot around me that I also apply a lot is to "pick your battles". There are things that are pointless to fight over, others you can and must. And you see the frustrated spinning around behind you on detail why you slowly but surely build the bigger picture. Start by changing your hometown, already a feat :D
christophergs 5y ago
Could you elaborate on what living non-traditionally looked like for you? What was your thought process going off script, and what made you decide to change course back to a regular job?
garrickvanburen 5y ago
> No one will probably remember us the way they’ll remember pg. History is a highly aggressive compression algorithm. Entire industries are forgotten, let alone people. So, yes, the correct answer is, "relax and enjoy yourself." If you happen to contribute to the world in a way that escapes the compression algorithm - congrats.
- tailspin2019 5y ago
  > History is a highly aggressive compression algorithm. Entire industries are forgotten, let alone people. You win “Hacker News Comment of the Day” :)
overthemoon 5y ago
> My current hypothesis is that the team is all that matters. Man. One of the worst jobs I've ever had was working as a paralegal in a law office, but I had two friends there that made it so much fun. We'd send each other emails making fun of the attorneys (obviously a risk but the IT person was a friend), joking around, talking about the future, sending dumb memes and getting hammered after work. After that, I got my first dev gig working with one of my closest friends, and it was a blast. Now I'm working for a company doing really cool stuff, but I don't really know the people I work with and it's sort of a cold environment, and I feel like I'm stagnating. I really, really think there's something to what you said. They're not bad people, not by a long shot, and maybe something will develop, but the camaraderie I had at the law office gig was special, and I miss it. My goals have narrowed: be a good father and husband, serve my community in whatever way I can, write fiction when I can. I think that's good. I also don't hold it against myself that I had loftier, maybe unrealistic, goals when I was younger. People change.
- TecoAndJix 5y ago
  This whole thread makes me think of this comic (it's more cynical the older you get). "What do you want to be when you give up"? https://joedator.com/cartoons/what-do-you-want-to-be-when-you-give-up/ https://joedator.com/cartoons/what-do-you-want-to-be-when-yo...
  - overthemoon 5y ago
    Ha, yeah. My past self would be horrified by what I wrote. But he also got into a lot of student debt and couldn't talk to girls, so. What the fuck does he know.
agent008t 5y ago
Just curious - why/how did you decide to have kids at 29? I can see mostly disadvantages to having children. Perhaps a nice highlights reel, but the daily grind sounds miserable. Having a cat seems like a much better deal. This sums up my sentiment: https://theoatmeal.com/comics/baby_vs_cat https://theoatmeal.com/comics/baby_vs_cat You seem to have a different opinion, so I wonder if it is just a matter of preference of if your perspective is very different to mine?
- leoedin 5y ago
  I've got a 14 month year old. The daily grind is relentless. But it's not miserable. I've watched a tiny helpless creature turn into a curious little person who can walk around and play with things, who gives me big smiles and hugs when he sees me, who takes real joy in such stupid things (current obsession: bike helmets). It's hard to quantify why that's a good thing - much like to many of my friends the idea of voluntarily spending an evening writing software that's different to the stuff I do at work all day also seems completely crazy. Sure, there's low points, but there's also high points every single day.
  - agent008t 5y ago
    But how did you decide that this is what you wanted? It is a big, life-changing decision to make. Did you wake up one morning and think, 'you know what, having a child would really make my life a lot better'? Or had you been looking forward to becoming a parent from an early age, and were just looking for the right time? E.g. I certainly didn't even think of it when I was 16 - I was dreaming of other things. Nothing much changed at 25. In my 30s, I am only considering it because it is part of the 'life script' and 'now or never' kind of situation, not because I can't wait to do it. Was it different for you? In an ideal world, I would maybe do it when I'm retired in my late 50s and 60s. I.e. I would prefer to skip children and go straight to grandchildren.
    - leoedin 5y ago
      It's an interesting question - I'm not sure there was ever a lightbulb moment. I think I've always thought "I will have kids some day" - even as a teenager. How much of that is just following the societal norms I don't know. I enjoy playing with kids though - maybe that contributed to that feeling. I'd say by the time I was 26 or 27 I was fairly sure I wanted kids soon (helped by being in a stable long term relationship). I was 29 when my son was born. One thing you become aware of quite quickly when you start seriously looking into kids is that the biological realities are much harsher than society leads you to believe. Having kids when the mum is much over 35 gets really difficult really quickly. Once I realised that, knowing that I did want children eventually, it made the decision to expedite things easier. I decided I'd rather make the leap sooner than regret it. I don't think it's a very logical decision though - interestingly I think a lot of the people I know with children today were quite impulsive and of-the-moment in their early 20s. The more sensible ones haven't had kids yet - perhaps because it's hard to make a reasoned decision about it.
pnutjam 5y ago
I started a family early and clawed my way up the income ladder until I mostly make enough to support my 6 kids and wife. It's been tough, but I wouldn't change it. I try to concentrate on helping where I can. I think our mission is to try and make the world just a bit better for at least the people around you. Do good and avoid creating hurt in the process.
asimjalis 5y ago
I can totally relate to this. The most valuable thing I have retained from all of my previous jobs has been the relationships many of which are ongoing. Once I realized this it occurred to me that instead of trying to optimize for accomplishment I need to optimize for these relationships. This changes the game. This also explains an economic paradox. Why does our compensation go up when we switch jobs? The reason is because each job switch opens us up to new opportunities to build relationships.
- borroka 5y ago
  "This also explains an economic paradox. Why does our compensation go up when we switch jobs?" Is it a paradox only if you take for true the existence homo or company economicus
Volrath89 5y ago
One of the best comments I've read in a long time. The importance of a steady paycheck is underrated, especially for peace of mind. I'm in a point of life that I actually long for easy and laid back CRUD-style jobs where one can do everything easily, quickly, be productive and also work a reasonable amount of hours and can stop thinking about work after signing off. I recently had to start a new front end using just jquery (customer requirement) and oh boy, I felt so much productive compared to react/angular
atatatat 5y ago
With the right attitude, the amount of money you have in your pocket can be "FU" money.

jkhdigital 5y ago

Amen. I’m a sober alcoholic, and if I died tomorrow I’d be content knowing that I did at least one worthwhile thing with the time I had: I helped another alcoholic, a 23 year old man who tried to kill himself shortly before I met him, get sober and start working and move out of his mom’s basement and stand up straight and look other people in the eyes and then go and help a few other people stop drinking. Not a single professional accomplishment is within an order of magnitude of that level of fulfillment. Just help one f*cking person become more than they thought they could be and you’ll die happy—why didn’t they tell us it was this simple?

6510 5y ago
The whole society seems designed top down to keep us fighting and arguing, live at the expense of others is the mantra. It seems it took a lot of engineering to get us this far from our natural state of caring. The Chinese seem to indoctrinate with a slightly different model where you are to believe society comes before the individual. The sensible model seems rather obvious: One has to organize their own show before one is of [much] use to others. Until that time one should give the others the opportunity to help you with that and be grateful. Its not an embarrassment if you plan to do the same.
- ehnto 5y ago
  There has been a cost to individualism no doubt. There are a few culutures where, generally, the community comes first. I think you can cultivate that in a small way though, by taking part in volunteer programs in your community. I know it's a cliche recommendation but if you are feeling like we lack community then it's probably just because of how easy it is to separate yourself from it.
- nradov 5y ago
  Elevating society above the individual stifles innovation and leads to stagnation.
  - necovek 5y ago
    References?
BLKNSLVR 5y ago
That brings up an old memory for me: I used to work as a lifeguard at a pool for three or four years as I was going through uni. Nothing glamorous in that work, it's just very loosely managing young males showing off in front of young females. Except this one time some kid jumped in the deep end and whilst he surfaced, he couldn't reach the top of the side of the pool in order to stay at the surface, he was clutching at the side with that unmistakeable, wide-eyed panic face. I reached down, pulled him out, and he ran off to his mum / friends / whatever, I never saw him again. Was a three second interaction from seeing it to him being back on dry land. Possibly the best thing I've ever done in my life, and it was in my late teens. I get satisfaction from my intellectuality and general smarts, but for it really brighten my soul, it has to positively affect other people. The bottom line is a demanding bitch and no matter how much you give it will ask for ever more. A positive change in a fellow human being is intrinsically, life-affirmingly satisfying; even just a single-serve in a lifetime.
- 0-_-0 5y ago
  I vaguely recall a study where they took suicidal people and employed them as lifeguards with great results.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - josephg 5y ago
    It makes a lot of sense. There’s two types of depression (though their names elude me). There’s depression where there’s something wrong with your brain - and despite having a great life, your brain makes sad chemicals instead of happy ones. And then there’s depression where you feel sad because your life is missing purpose and meaning. Ie, being the person you are with the life you have, depression is a healthy response. Most depression is the second type. So I’m not surprised giving people purpose shows great results. It would have for me, too.
- malydok 5y ago
  It's an interesting fact that one could save many lives by donating to charities and yet wouldn't feel quite the same way about it. Clicking "donate" on a screen and filling in credit card details isn't as thrilling an experience as yours even if it achieves no less.
TriNetra 5y ago
When we do a selfless act we experience the joy from our soul – that's what we're truly are: an eternal, complete drop in the infinite ocean of pure consciousness. Our ego (which makes us feel that we're separate from others) binds us in layers and layers of conditioning, of labels and engages us in selfish acts, which only brings suffering and stress. Read about this discourse from Buddha to understand what we're missing – The Fruits of the Contemplative Life: https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/DN/DN02.html https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/DN/DN02.html
FreeSpeech 5y ago
> why didn’t they tell us it was this simple? Because it has an intangible effect on GDP. Our culture optimises for creating obedient worker drones who will capitulate to authority. Fostering empathy for others and leading children to a life of fulfilment conflicts with establishment incentives.
sokoloff 5y ago
> why didn’t they tell us it was this simple? I suspect different people probably did try to tell me versions of that, but it’s very hard to learn deep feelings from hearing other people talk or reading their words as compared to living it yourself. You can read about others’ heartbreak but you learn from your first few breakups. You can read about having kids but nothing prepares you for the deep feelings of parenting. Maybe being doomed to repeat the learnings others have had is part of the point?
castlecrasher2 5y ago
>why didn’t they tell us it was this simple? Say what you want about the ills that come with it, but religion has been telling us this since the dawn of time.
atatatat 5y ago
Thank you.
tailspin2019 5y ago
Amazing. Inspiring. Thanks for writing this.

onion2k 5y ago

I just applied for a regular job. Because to be honest, it’s gonna be pretty sweet having a fat bank account, even if it’ll take till I’m 50 to have FU money. You will never have FU money working a regular job.

xapata 5y ago
Compounding growth does fine.
- kebman 5y ago
  Assuming the Fed keeps printing more.
  - xapata 5y ago
    Yeah, yeah, I'm assuming the US government stays solvent.
    - atatatat 5y ago
      The 50%-300% increase in market values of tangible assets in that country this year is assuming the opposite.
PaulRobinson 5y ago
That's just nonsense advice. The entire point of retirement savings is that at some point you can stop working. FU money is just about timing. You can change that timing. 1. Reduce outgoings. It's easier to have FU money if the amount you need to be able to say "FU" is smaller, because you've perfected the art of living on a little less than most. Most people's outgoings grow to meet their incomes: resist that. You don't need to recycle everything you touch and grow your own food to make good headway here. 2. Take your age, halve it. That number is the percentage of your gross income you should be putting away each month into retirement and savings if you haven't started already. Yes, it's hard at the beginning, so have it happen automatically through employer deductions (common in the UK for pensions, not sure about elsewhere), or on payday move a %age automatically into a savings or investment account so you get used to living without it. I still struggle to do this but am getting better. 3. Learn about compound returns a little more. $500 a month at 8% (typical market returns recently), and over 10 years gives you back $92k - a $32k profit on the $60k you put in. Whether that's FU money is dependent on whether your outgoings are $50k/year or $150k/year. Keep going for another 10 years, and you're not far off $300k which isn't bad for the $120k it cost you. Think you can keep going into your fifties and do another decade? $750k off the back of a $180k investment. Is this not FU money yet? You're the problem, not the regular job. Your chances of having FU money working a regular job are far, far higher than having it any other way. It's just too many people are trying to retire in their 20s and not getting it: that's not a very likely outcome, no matter how hard you work or how smart you are.

sangnoir 5y ago

> No one will probably remember us the way they’ll remember pg. The older I get, the more the whole "legacy"/impact issue seems overhyped; pg (and everyone alive today) is not going to be remembered for long either; perhaps 2 more generations, and it's a wrap. No one is remembered forever. That thought keeps me rooted firmly in the present and on the immediate impact I can have. I have never been into poetry, but both versions of Ozymandias (Shelley's[1] and Smith's[2]) deeply resonated with me. I wholly agree with you, your impact, and your legacy, is with the people around you, in the here and now. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozymandias https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozymandias 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozymandias_(Smith) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozymandias_(Smith)

leoc 5y ago
This is all broadly true, but the fact that 'Ozymandias' is frickin' Ramesses II does undermine the message of the poems a bit. Or more generously, it adds another level of depth to the point that someone's future fame can't easily be predicted by looking at their current fame.
- vidarh 5y ago
  But even Ramessess II is not really "remembered" by more than a tiny handful of people. Most people who recognize the name know nothing about him, and most would never come up with the name unprompted. Most knowledge about him is lost. We know him in the very abstract, not all much different to how we know the Ozymandias of the poems. Does that level of being remembered matter?
  - leoc 5y ago
    To the extent that being remembered after your death matters at all, then absolutely, yes. To go back to the original point of comparison, many more people know Ramesses II now than have ever heard of Paul Graham, and this is when pg is still alive and probably near the all-time peak of his fame. There's a relatively small, but not that small, number of people who can name some of Ramesses II's monuments or other achievements without looking them up. And there are many millions of people who are vaguely aware that he was one of the GOAT Pharaohs, and that was more or less the core objective of all the monument-building.

Juliate 5y ago

> My current hypothesis is that the team is all that matters. That's me 6 years ago. After having invested too much on the type of work/mission and found that this was not it. From the past 6 years and 2 companies where I tried this hypothesis, I can say that the work _structure_ (chaos, or hyper-bureaucratic, or anywhere in between, going either way) and the work _mission_ do matter a lot too in the end. It's an intricate balance. The work _structure_ mandates how your team will jell, or dismantle, over time and tasks. The thousands of paper cuts due to the transformations from start to scale to profitable and compliant can really turn mad the unprepared. The work _mission_ mandates how much/long you will endure the paper cuts. But yes, the team and the people is still what you should invest on: that's the only area where your loyalty matters, if only because that's only there that you can find reciprocity. The company, the structure, the mission are just some paper fiction that pay and pass; and there's thousands of them. Moreover, these days, most of the missions (in IT at least) are even more ludicrous compared to the existential challenge that's ahead of us. So yes, we better relax, enjoy the people around us in the settings we have, be nice and do what's sensible to do.

xwolfi 5y ago

I smiled at "changing the world". It's very funny we think about the world as if it needed changing, had the ability to change in a lifetime or that it was remotely interested in our own opinion of it. It's probable most people in the world, the majority being Chinese and Indian, would strongly disagree with what you think it should be. If not, it's the africans and the europeans who would. I have a huge amount of agency in my life, simply because I can live with little money, enjoy obeying and building stuff in teams, can be useful and accept sacrifice, so I moved across the world to work in investment banks and it's striking how similar yet different people are, and hows silly 20-something are in speaking of changing "the world". Something I hear a lot around me that I also apply a lot is to "pick your battles". There are things that are pointless to fight over, others you can and must. And you see the frustrated spinning around behind you on detail why you slowly but surely build the bigger picture. Start by changing your hometown, already a feat :D

christophergs 5y ago

Could you elaborate on what living non-traditionally looked like for you? What was your thought process going off script, and what made you decide to change course back to a regular job?

garrickvanburen 5y ago

> No one will probably remember us the way they’ll remember pg. History is a highly aggressive compression algorithm. Entire industries are forgotten, let alone people. So, yes, the correct answer is, "relax and enjoy yourself." If you happen to contribute to the world in a way that escapes the compression algorithm - congrats.

tailspin2019 5y ago
> History is a highly aggressive compression algorithm. Entire industries are forgotten, let alone people. You win “Hacker News Comment of the Day” :)

overthemoon 5y ago

> My current hypothesis is that the team is all that matters. Man. One of the worst jobs I've ever had was working as a paralegal in a law office, but I had two friends there that made it so much fun. We'd send each other emails making fun of the attorneys (obviously a risk but the IT person was a friend), joking around, talking about the future, sending dumb memes and getting hammered after work. After that, I got my first dev gig working with one of my closest friends, and it was a blast. Now I'm working for a company doing really cool stuff, but I don't really know the people I work with and it's sort of a cold environment, and I feel like I'm stagnating. I really, really think there's something to what you said. They're not bad people, not by a long shot, and maybe something will develop, but the camaraderie I had at the law office gig was special, and I miss it. My goals have narrowed: be a good father and husband, serve my community in whatever way I can, write fiction when I can. I think that's good. I also don't hold it against myself that I had loftier, maybe unrealistic, goals when I was younger. People change.

TecoAndJix 5y ago
This whole thread makes me think of this comic (it's more cynical the older you get). "What do you want to be when you give up"? https://joedator.com/cartoons/what-do-you-want-to-be-when-you-give-up/ https://joedator.com/cartoons/what-do-you-want-to-be-when-yo...
- overthemoon 5y ago
  Ha, yeah. My past self would be horrified by what I wrote. But he also got into a lot of student debt and couldn't talk to girls, so. What the fuck does he know.

agent008t 5y ago

Just curious - why/how did you decide to have kids at 29? I can see mostly disadvantages to having children. Perhaps a nice highlights reel, but the daily grind sounds miserable. Having a cat seems like a much better deal. This sums up my sentiment: https://theoatmeal.com/comics/baby_vs_cat https://theoatmeal.com/comics/baby_vs_cat You seem to have a different opinion, so I wonder if it is just a matter of preference of if your perspective is very different to mine?

leoedin 5y ago
I've got a 14 month year old. The daily grind is relentless. But it's not miserable. I've watched a tiny helpless creature turn into a curious little person who can walk around and play with things, who gives me big smiles and hugs when he sees me, who takes real joy in such stupid things (current obsession: bike helmets). It's hard to quantify why that's a good thing - much like to many of my friends the idea of voluntarily spending an evening writing software that's different to the stuff I do at work all day also seems completely crazy. Sure, there's low points, but there's also high points every single day.
- agent008t 5y ago
  But how did you decide that this is what you wanted? It is a big, life-changing decision to make. Did you wake up one morning and think, 'you know what, having a child would really make my life a lot better'? Or had you been looking forward to becoming a parent from an early age, and were just looking for the right time? E.g. I certainly didn't even think of it when I was 16 - I was dreaming of other things. Nothing much changed at 25. In my 30s, I am only considering it because it is part of the 'life script' and 'now or never' kind of situation, not because I can't wait to do it. Was it different for you? In an ideal world, I would maybe do it when I'm retired in my late 50s and 60s. I.e. I would prefer to skip children and go straight to grandchildren.
  - leoedin 5y ago
    It's an interesting question - I'm not sure there was ever a lightbulb moment. I think I've always thought "I will have kids some day" - even as a teenager. How much of that is just following the societal norms I don't know. I enjoy playing with kids though - maybe that contributed to that feeling. I'd say by the time I was 26 or 27 I was fairly sure I wanted kids soon (helped by being in a stable long term relationship). I was 29 when my son was born. One thing you become aware of quite quickly when you start seriously looking into kids is that the biological realities are much harsher than society leads you to believe. Having kids when the mum is much over 35 gets really difficult really quickly. Once I realised that, knowing that I did want children eventually, it made the decision to expedite things easier. I decided I'd rather make the leap sooner than regret it. I don't think it's a very logical decision though - interestingly I think a lot of the people I know with children today were quite impulsive and of-the-moment in their early 20s. The more sensible ones haven't had kids yet - perhaps because it's hard to make a reasoned decision about it.

pnutjam 5y ago

I started a family early and clawed my way up the income ladder until I mostly make enough to support my 6 kids and wife. It's been tough, but I wouldn't change it. I try to concentrate on helping where I can. I think our mission is to try and make the world just a bit better for at least the people around you. Do good and avoid creating hurt in the process.

asimjalis 5y ago

I can totally relate to this. The most valuable thing I have retained from all of my previous jobs has been the relationships many of which are ongoing. Once I realized this it occurred to me that instead of trying to optimize for accomplishment I need to optimize for these relationships. This changes the game. This also explains an economic paradox. Why does our compensation go up when we switch jobs? The reason is because each job switch opens us up to new opportunities to build relationships.

borroka 5y ago
"This also explains an economic paradox. Why does our compensation go up when we switch jobs?" Is it a paradox only if you take for true the existence homo or company economicus

Volrath89 5y ago

One of the best comments I've read in a long time. The importance of a steady paycheck is underrated, especially for peace of mind. I'm in a point of life that I actually long for easy and laid back CRUD-style jobs where one can do everything easily, quickly, be productive and also work a reasonable amount of hours and can stop thinking about work after signing off. I recently had to start a new front end using just jquery (customer requirement) and oh boy, I felt so much productive compared to react/angular

atatatat 5y ago

With the right attitude, the amount of money you have in your pocket can be "FU" money.