4 ms·

I can choose my clothes but I can't choose my beliefs

marcosdumay 5y ago
Well, one of "why so you say yo can? or "why do you say you can't" is a good follow-up question to you. You can very clear choose any of both, but you have methodological and societal restrictions on both, on differing ways so you can't choose either one freely.
JetAlone 5y ago
Yeah. Beliefs feel more like skin. And acting as if I believe something I don't feels like putting paste on my skin to avoid discrimination. Our skin doesn't get ripped off easily nor without pain - it does get burned, or healed, maybe. That's what I can liken to the sensation of changing beliefs.
jhgb 5y ago
> but I can't choose my beliefs You couldn't be a scientist then, for example. You wouldn't be able to change your beliefs when faced with new evidence. The ability to choose what you believe is a perfectly ordinary requirement we place even on fairly average people.
- gowld 5y ago
  A scientist believes what the evidence shows. They have no choice what to believe.
  - 6510 5y ago
    You limit them to wild hypothesis.
  - jhgb 5y ago
    This would only make sense if one and only one belief was supported by any set of evidence.
  - chomp 5y ago
    How do you think hypotheses are created? An educated guess is a belief that something is the case, which you then test and adjust your world view.
  - Supermancho 5y ago
    Science itself is a belief (or religion, depending on your epistemology), that the scientific method and associated tools, like the gold-standard double-blind study*, is the most effective way to form a model for reality. On top of that, experimental results can only inform a subjective model for each individual. For example, children are informed about our solar system in a simple 2d plane, because that's useful enough. We can prove that the solar system has planetary deviation from the generally flat plane (up to 7 degrees) but that more advanced model is something that is generally learned later, out of pragmatism. You can spend a lifetime learning details and data, but you'll still die ignorant because gathering all of human knowledge is impractical at this point. Therefore, relying on science alone, is not enough to inform your personal ideas about reality, even if you believe that it's the most reliable way to do so. eg https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC300808/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC300808/ <-- no double blind for parachutes, where's the evidence?
    - flyingchipmann 5y ago
      I agree with most of what you described but I don't think scientific method should be put together with religion. I think they are orthogonal. For example, the scientists' religion don't really alter the research if they strictly follow the scientific method. In other words what they think won't alter the reality. And imo the most important part is the process of proving itself, rather than the result. Therefore it's perfectly fine to arrive at various conclusions and sometimes 'I don't know' is the best conclusion u can have so far. You don't really have to believe in anything with scientific framework, instead you do best to approximate and emphasize on the process rather than the result. Otherwise it's just magical thinking.
      - Supermancho 5y ago
        > I don't think scientific method should be put together with religion. I think they are orthogonal. This is a common belief people hold to protect themselves from altering an existing worldview (or previous statements). I'm not sure how you construct a view that the belief in the scientific method and various derived conclusions (eg atheism or agnosticism) as the "correct" way to explain everything in reality, is not a defacto religion. > For example, the scientists' religion don't really alter the research if they strictly follow the scientific method. In other words what they think won't alter the reality. Reality is not altered by any religion. Not sure what this has to do with the belief in the scientific methodology.
Iv 5y ago
When he was a baby, I had to manually put and remove clothing on my baby boy. Now he is 7 and can dress/undress by himself, I am very proud. He is learning about the world and for now I am manually putting my beliefs over him so that he can make some sense of the world. I am going to be proud the day he manages to remove them and and put beliefs in his mind by himself. In my opinion deconstructing the opinions you were given as a kid is part of the process of growing up. Thing is, it is an optional part and too many people grow up without going through that stage.
- JetAlone 5y ago
  I think a lot of people deconstruct the ideas they were given as children, and end up reconstructing parts of them into a bit of a patchwork, later in life. I hope your boy keeps giving you reasons to be proud of him, whatever kind of proverbial clothes he decides to end up in.
aaron-santos 5y ago
You have the agency to choose your beliefs. The door is open, you simply have to walk through it.
- avindroth 5y ago
  Systematically changing your beliefs takes a lot more work than just stepping through a door. I know people like to say this stuff to give hope, but the illusion does more harm than good imho.
avindroth 5y ago
But if you can't choose your beliefs and your beliefs affected your choice of clothes, then ultimately you can't really choose your clothes.

Well, one of "why so you say yo can? or "why do you say you can't" is a good follow-up question to you. You can very clear choose any of both, but you have methodological and societal restrictions on both, on differing ways so you can't choose either one freely.

JetAlone 5y ago

Yeah. Beliefs feel more like skin. And acting as if I believe something I don't feels like putting paste on my skin to avoid discrimination. Our skin doesn't get ripped off easily nor without pain - it does get burned, or healed, maybe. That's what I can liken to the sensation of changing beliefs.

jhgb 5y ago

> but I can't choose my beliefs You couldn't be a scientist then, for example. You wouldn't be able to change your beliefs when faced with new evidence. The ability to choose what you believe is a perfectly ordinary requirement we place even on fairly average people.

gowld 5y ago
A scientist believes what the evidence shows. They have no choice what to believe.
- 6510 5y ago
  You limit them to wild hypothesis.
- jhgb 5y ago
  This would only make sense if one and only one belief was supported by any set of evidence.
- chomp 5y ago
  How do you think hypotheses are created? An educated guess is a belief that something is the case, which you then test and adjust your world view.
- Supermancho 5y ago
  Science itself is a belief (or religion, depending on your epistemology), that the scientific method and associated tools, like the gold-standard double-blind study*, is the most effective way to form a model for reality. On top of that, experimental results can only inform a subjective model for each individual. For example, children are informed about our solar system in a simple 2d plane, because that's useful enough. We can prove that the solar system has planetary deviation from the generally flat plane (up to 7 degrees) but that more advanced model is something that is generally learned later, out of pragmatism. You can spend a lifetime learning details and data, but you'll still die ignorant because gathering all of human knowledge is impractical at this point. Therefore, relying on science alone, is not enough to inform your personal ideas about reality, even if you believe that it's the most reliable way to do so. eg https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC300808/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC300808/ <-- no double blind for parachutes, where's the evidence?
  - flyingchipmann 5y ago
    I agree with most of what you described but I don't think scientific method should be put together with religion. I think they are orthogonal. For example, the scientists' religion don't really alter the research if they strictly follow the scientific method. In other words what they think won't alter the reality. And imo the most important part is the process of proving itself, rather than the result. Therefore it's perfectly fine to arrive at various conclusions and sometimes 'I don't know' is the best conclusion u can have so far. You don't really have to believe in anything with scientific framework, instead you do best to approximate and emphasize on the process rather than the result. Otherwise it's just magical thinking.
    - Supermancho 5y ago
      > I don't think scientific method should be put together with religion. I think they are orthogonal. This is a common belief people hold to protect themselves from altering an existing worldview (or previous statements). I'm not sure how you construct a view that the belief in the scientific method and various derived conclusions (eg atheism or agnosticism) as the "correct" way to explain everything in reality, is not a defacto religion. > For example, the scientists' religion don't really alter the research if they strictly follow the scientific method. In other words what they think won't alter the reality. Reality is not altered by any religion. Not sure what this has to do with the belief in the scientific methodology.

Iv 5y ago

When he was a baby, I had to manually put and remove clothing on my baby boy. Now he is 7 and can dress/undress by himself, I am very proud. He is learning about the world and for now I am manually putting my beliefs over him so that he can make some sense of the world. I am going to be proud the day he manages to remove them and and put beliefs in his mind by himself. In my opinion deconstructing the opinions you were given as a kid is part of the process of growing up. Thing is, it is an optional part and too many people grow up without going through that stage.

JetAlone 5y ago
I think a lot of people deconstruct the ideas they were given as children, and end up reconstructing parts of them into a bit of a patchwork, later in life. I hope your boy keeps giving you reasons to be proud of him, whatever kind of proverbial clothes he decides to end up in.

aaron-santos 5y ago

You have the agency to choose your beliefs. The door is open, you simply have to walk through it.

avindroth 5y ago
Systematically changing your beliefs takes a lot more work than just stepping through a door. I know people like to say this stuff to give hope, but the illusion does more harm than good imho.

avindroth 5y ago

But if you can't choose your beliefs and your beliefs affected your choice of clothes, then ultimately you can't really choose your clothes.