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Canada to Ban Sale of New Fuel-Powered Cars and Light Trucks from 2035
- Proven 5y agoWhy am I not surprised - the same idiot government who introduced fines for free speech the other day. Meanwhile the EU-level CO2 taxes will be applied to make sure that the ICE vehicle owners' lives remain miserable until, and beyond, 2035. What a shithole.
- version_five 5y agoA real challenge with Canada is that we are a big, diverse country that is dominated politically and population wise by 2-3 cites. The concerns and experiences of the city dwellers have little in common of smaller towns away from Toronto, or remote areas. So we get rules that exist to appease affluent urbanites that basically shaft the rural folk. I think the US has a similar problem, but we are way more sparsely populated and the federal government has more power. I have always been a federalist, but I think it's time to start talking about how we break up the country, so we don't have remote rule over people that it does nothing for.
- hn_throwaway_99 5y agoThe US is the opposite - due to the Electoral College and shape of many state districts, rural areas have a much larger, disproportionate share of voting power than urban areas.
- throwaway0a5e 5y agoAt the federal level rural states are over-weighted (because Senate) but at the state level the cities run the state. It always amuses me when urban and inner suburb dwellers want big federal government. They'd have a lot more latitude to run things their way if the commerce clause got reigned in and the 10A got some respect.
- selimthegrim 5y agoHow is this true in red southern states like Louisiana, TN etc?
- throwaway0a5e 5y agoBecause the populations of their cities and suburbs are red (remember, we're talking at the margins here) to the point that required items on the official blue platform that blue candidates must espouse in order to get blue funding are deal breakers to them (at the margins). HN always has a wide blind spot for how much the average person's beliefs are mixed and matched from the left and right. Ask the office janitor or delivery truck driver what he/she thinks about abortion and LGBTQ rights and then ask them what they think about min-wage and healthcare. Odds are you'll get points from both parties represented. Red states are reliably red because those people reliably care about things from the red platform more than they care about things from the blue platform and blue states are blue for the same reason.
- hn_throwaway_99 5y ago> Because the populations of their cities and suburbs are red (remember, we're talking at the margins here) That's just demonstrably false. Take a look at this election results map of Texas: https://www.politico.com/2020-election/results/texas/ https://www.politico.com/2020-election/results/texas/ . Or this one of Tennessee: https://www.politico.com/2020-election/results/tennessee/ https://www.politico.com/2020-election/results/tennessee/ . Or this one of Arkansas: https://www.politico.com/2020-election/results/arkansas/ https://www.politico.com/2020-election/results/arkansas/ . In every case the largest cities voted for Biden. Texas is particularly stark because all of the top 4 cities, Dallas, Houston, San Antonio and Austin went for Biden.
- rkuykendall-com 5y ago1/3rd of the top 15 cities in the US are in Texas, but thanks to a good-sized rural citizenship, nearly best-in-the-country gerrymandering, and innovative voter suppression, the state is still deeply red-controlled.
- refurb 5y agoMuch larger than urban areas? No. That’s clearly not true when 5 or 6 most populous states pretty much determine the winner.
- hn_throwaway_99 5y agoIt clearly is true when, of the 3 times in the past 30 years that Republicans won the presidency that they only won the popular vote once, and in those cases Democrats won urban areas by overwhelming margins.
- refurb 5y agoBut rural areas don’t have more power than urban areas.
- hdhjebebeb 5y agoJust off the top of my head, big cities include Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton, Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto, Halifax, Hamilton, Kitchener. You make it sound like Toronto and Vancouver are walled cities in the middle of a vast wasteland, but most Canadians live in places with >100k people, and even more can drive to a mall within 20 minutes. Do you want to break up the country so all the money and people are in one part, and you and a bunch of dirt roads are in the remaining part?
- version_five 5y ago> Do you want to break up the country so all the money and people are in one part, and you and a bunch of dirt roads are in the remaining part? Yes
- grecy 5y ago> a bunch of dirt roads are in the remaining part If you've never been, do yourself a favor. The parts out west with the dirt roads are the best parts. Here's a little road trip I took late last fall on "the dirt roads" - https://youtu.be/pyQMt8om9Io?t=973 https://youtu.be/pyQMt8om9Io?t=973
- version_five 5y agoI grew up on a dirt road in rural Canada. I'd be happy to live in such an area and have a government that takes the local population's needs into account. The GP's dismissive attitude of "you and a bunch of dirt roads" is exactly what the rural population is up against.
- yongjik 5y agoA country made of "dirt roads in rural Canada" will stop looking like "dirt roads in rural Canada" in short order - no industry, few jobs, and every teenager with high school diploma will try to escape to an industrial nation next door. You're taking being part of Canada as granted and then complaining that Canada is ruled by the wishes of the majority of Canadians.
- abraae 5y agoOr you could acknowledge that the rural folk will have to make more changes to their lifestyles than the city folk will in order to reduce emissions. Should they bear all the costs? No. The city folk are consumers for those products created by carbon intensive ag. They should pay too, in higher prices. If you're all about doing whatever you're doing, and screw anyone who wants to tell you what to do, then yeah, go ahead and try and set up your sovereign fiefdom somewhere. But expect some pushback from others who want to actually address these problems.
- renjimen 5y agoRural folk employed in industries such as agriculture and forestry are going to feel the effects of climate change the most. You'd think rural folk would be the ones fighting for climate action. Meanwhile, I don't think many urbanites in the retail or service sectors need to worry that their jobs will disappear with a changing climate, yet they're the ones voting for change. As someone who lives in Prince George, BC, the wilful disregard for the environment by the locals given the town's dependence on lumber is incredible.
- dropofwill 5y agoThe reality is just the opposite: urban areas produce the majority of greenhouse gases and consume the majority of energy.
- freedomben 5y agoIf GP doesn't want to be part of the country, and others in his area agree, why would you stop them? Do you not believe in consent of the governed?
- splitstud 5y agoYou won't BE addressing them in a city, you will be addressing them in a field or a mine. You will either have to live the standard of living you are apparently unwittingly espousing, or you won't be addressing what you see as the problem.
- HDMI_Cable 5y agoI fully agree with you, as someone who has lived in both of those cities and the boonies. Considering that 80% of the population is urbanized however (and another 10% rural in the Windsor/BC lowlands) the government really should cater to urbanites. Rural people are just going to have to rely on support from the provincial governments, or lobby to join the US.
- MeinBlutIstBlau 5y agoYour rationale is the primary reason why the US has the electoral system it does. So the federalists wouldn't dominate the country.
- onlyrealcuzzo 5y ago48% of Canada's population is in 5 metro areas alone. So it shouldn't be surprising - when majority rules - that city dwellers are dominating politically.
- adriand 5y agoI don't think your depiction of who holds the power in Canada is entirely accurate. The power you are speaking of is wielded more by suburbs. In Ontario that area is referred to as "the 905": the regions of Halton, Peel, York and Durham. When it comes to issues like car ownership, I suspect that many suburbanites want their SUVs as much as rural folks do. I also don't think this legislation "shaft[s] the rural folk". Climate change is coming for all of us. On Tuesday we recorded the highest temperature ever in Canada, 47.9 C! Speaking optimistically, I would like to think that Canada is taking actions to protect all Canadians. Unfortunately, the truth is that we need far more potent legislation than this. But there are many sacred cows in Canada when it comes to meaningful action on climate change — such as actual cows. If Canada were, for instance, to tax agricultural products like meat and dairy in such a way that their climate impact was no longer externalized, that would indeed be seen as "shafting the rural folk". But I don't see that happening any time soon.
- digianarchist 5y agoI live in Duhram. Dodge Rams and F150s as far as the eye can see.
- alphakilo 5y agoWith vehicles such as the recently revealed electric F150, they can still have those cars to rip down the 401
- digianarchist 5y agoI plan on purchasing one myself.
- 6f8986c3 5y ago> I also don't think this legislation "shaft[s] the rural folk" And then you proceed to list a bunch of reasons why your religion considers it a moral imperative to shaft the rural folk.
- BurningFrog 5y agoThis is how US "blue states" work. At least according to the rural population.
- bruiseralmighty 5y ago2021 being the new 1791 makes me very happy. Please god make King County (Seattle) its own city-state. We've had enough. Had it with these Federalists. Why did we even rebel if it wasn't to say 'screw you' to Georgie. I'm not interested in replacing a a single king with a panel of busy bodies. I'm interested in 'No Kings'. Now excuse me while I tend my marijuana farm while being blisteringly drunk.
- cuddlybacon 5y agoI'd really rather see something like this handled as a tax on gas cars in the big 5 cities (or maybe 10). These are going to be the places where alternatives are the most viable.
- version_five 5y agoThis is an interesting idea. I think a congestion tax would do much more to address driving generally in places where there are lots of alternatives. If governments wants to add "green" exceptions then so be it. This keeps it local, if it's mandated at the municipal level.
- 908B64B197 5y agoI don't think the answer is giving more power to the federal government, in both cases, since most of the votes will be coming from these 2-3 cities.
- koolba 5y agoIf electric cars are truly the future and will win outright, why the heavy handed approach to ban alternatives? The people most effected by this will be those with lower incomes who are less likely to have a home with space to charge an electric vehicle. And they’ll feel it a few years after the ban when the used car market dries up.
- version_five 5y agoCanada is getting ready for an election, this sends the message the government wants to send
- solraph 5y agoI can't speak for the Canadian government - but to me this isn't about the better technology, it's about not cooking the planet. Given that 82% of electricity [0] is from Hydro, Nuclear, and other renewables, it's a pretty easy move for Canada to make. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_sector_in_Canada https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_sector_in_Canada
- jeffreyrogers 5y agoI think we'll burn most of the oil regardless of electric car adoption. It's just too convenient of a power source not to use.
- eyivghh 5y agoThe Canadian electrical market is deeply integrated w/ the US’, so you have to average the US’ energy mix in. Furthermore, you have to consider that an extra electrical vehicle is charged on the margins. In some energy markets, even if they’re 80% renewable, that could mean the electrical car runs 100% on coal (much worse than gas). [1] In BC theres no problem because they have a certain type (easy to store) of hydro, but Im not sure about Ontario. And coal in the margins is very common, even though coal is dying. Coal and heavy oil plants have a huge advantage when it comes to stabilizing the grid - its easy to store thousands of tons of the stuff on-site. Therefore, in places like the N. East, very high CO2 emitting thermal plants are used in the winter to stabilize the grid (in the winter the NH4 pressure in the pipelines drops because of ppl heating their homes) [1] This is the same reasoning why flying across the world dead-head is basically zero-emission: the flight is flying anyway and your added weight is negligible. This is not the case for paid seats since airlines will switch planes, add new ones, depending on the tickets sold.
- thinkingkong 5y agoMany auto manufacturers will be suspending production of ICE cars and light trucks before that. It actually seems more like a policy after the fact than anything else.
- toomuchtodo 5y agoIt’s helpful to lock the changes in, just as we’ll bulldoze coal electrical generation plants and not go back.
- gruez 5y agoWhat makes you so sure?
- brailsafe 5y agoI'm doubtful that enough people would buy an automatic ICE car vs an electric IF the variables involved in owning, operating the vehicle were the same. That said, there are a lot of edge cases that would slow that road by another decade at least I'd guess. But for brand new cars? They tend to be a luxury anyway, so it's plausible. Right now it's still not even feasible for someone who parks on the street to own an Electric vehicle imo; unless you arrange your life around it.
- eugeniub 5y agoBans this far into the future are so meaningless. They're a way for ostensibly progressive governments to act like they're doing something without upsetting anyone in power. Fourteen years from now, this will either happen without a ban even being necessary, or whatever government is in power will just say "well this obviously was unrealistic" and simply reverse the ban.
- toomuchtodo 5y agoI disagree. It sends a clear signal to combustion vehicle manufacturers that they waited long enough and it’s time to adapt or die. Arguably, 2030 would be a better date considering the atmospheric CO2 saturation level, but it is what it is. I will even go so far as to argue that Tesla was the catalyst for demonstrating this should be done (with EVs that are at parity with combustion vehicles in some ways, and better in some ways).
- gruez 5y ago>It sends a clear signal to combustion vehicle manufacturers that they waited long enough and it’s time to adapt or die How does it send a clear message if the change can be undone if the opposition party comes in power at any point in the next 14 years?
- tw04 5y agoManufacturers aren’t going to do nothing in the hopes that literally every country on earth elects someone that is petrol friendly. Even if Canada has a change, if the US, UK, EU, etc all enact similar laws, they aren’t going to make IC engines for just Canada and electric everywhere else. Their entire game is economies of scale.
- toomuchtodo 5y agoVehicle manufacturing and supply chains decision and capital investments are made on decade timelines.
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- neom 5y agoInteresting history of the Canadian automotive industry: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoUdNi-WuGE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoUdNi-WuGE
- jeffreyrogers 5y agoThe nice thing about ICE cars is they can get passed down the value chain easily. Middle class family buys a new car, drives it for 5 years or so, trades it in for a new car, and the used car is sold to a poorer family but pretty much works just as well. Do electrics work the same way? I imagine the battery performs significantly worse after 5 years than when new.
- toomuchtodo 5y agoTesla vehicles have hundreds of thousands of miles on them with reasonable amounts of degradation. https://electrek.co/2020/06/06/tesla-battery-degradation-replacement/ https://electrek.co/2020/06/06/tesla-battery-degradation-rep... https://electrek.co/2018/04/14/tesla-battery-degradation-data/ https://electrek.co/2018/04/14/tesla-battery-degradation-dat...
- rasz 5y agoand even a minor fender benders result in cars being declared a total loss due to Teslas fantastic repair ecosystem.
- toomuchtodo 5y agoInsurers still insure them so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
- KirillPanov 5y agoAt obscene premiums. If your car loan requires collision insurance, the dealer should have to show the monthly insurance premium wherever they show you a monthly payment. But they don't have to, so they don't.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- jwalton 5y ago
- dadjoker 5y agoAnd all that electric power comes from....where? Just look at California if you want to see how all of this getting rid of fossil fuels and relying solely on "green" energy works.
- AdamTReineke 5y agoAs a Washington state resident, I'm unfamiliar. What's the issue in California besides wildfires from aging delivery infrastructure?
- yabones 5y agoLooking at the stats for Ontario's grid[1]... * 49% Nuclear * 24% Gas * 23% hydroelectric * 2% wind I'm happy with a ~25% non-renewable car vs a 100% non-renewable car. --- [1] https://live.gridwatch.ca/home-page.html https://live.gridwatch.ca/home-page.html
- singingboyo 5y agoTo jump on with some older governmental stats. Canada overall in 2018 was 61% hydro, 15% Uranium, 9% Nat Gas, 8% Coal, 5% wind, for 81% renewable. [1] BC in 2015 was 86% (!) hydro, 2% wind, and 6% biomass, for 94% renewable. [2] It's not like renewable energy is something new here. --- [1] https://www.cer-rec.gc.ca/en/data-analysis/energy-markets/provincial-territorial-energy-profiles/provincial-territorial-energy-profiles-canada.html https://www.cer-rec.gc.ca/en/data-analysis/energy-markets/pr... [2] https://www.cer-rec.gc.ca/en/data-analysis/energy-commodities/electricity/report/2016-canadian-renewable-power/province/canadas-renewable-power-landscape-2016-energy-market-analysis-british-columbia.html https://www.cer-rec.gc.ca/en/data-analysis/energy-commoditie... (For both, diagrams/tables are on the right hand side column)
- singingboyo 5y agoWe don't call it a hydro bill for nothing. Less than 20% came from fossil fuels in 2018 (latest data I could find easily). As for increased demand, well, as much as we harp on BC Hydro for the project costs etc., site C will cover the demand here. I know there are other ongoing hydro projects in Newfoundland and Manitoba. So, the power demand should be covered. Whether that causes some cost increases remains to be seen, but it's not like we're going to have no power or be burning fossil fuel for it.
- mfer 5y agoI wonder what the plan is for the electric grid to be able to support all of this. The long lead time provides an opportunity to prep for it
- neonate 5y agohttps://archive.is/TOEuJ https://archive.is/TOEuJ
- gryzzly 5y agoWhy not in 2235. Empty promises for tomorrow. Laughable.
- GLGirty 5y ago'How do we power cars' is a red herring question. Cars are a symptom of sprawl, and sprawl is exceeding it's scaling limits. Canada is well past the limits of traffic and noise and death by collisions that are tolerated by nations with happy citizens. If we don't fix the egregious shenanigans in our housing market, by 2035 property owners will be a heridary caste. When rent and food cost 100% of median income who is buying cars?
- doublejay1999 5y agoomg barely 14 years awa, there's simply no time !