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It's time for the naturally immune to be treated the same as those who've been vaccinated. There is absolutely zero scientific evidence to the contrary, and ple

It's time for the naturally immune to be treated the same as those who've been vaccinated. There is absolutely zero scientific evidence to the contrary, and plenty of evidence to support it.

xadhominemx 5y ago
It’s hard to reliably verify previous infection and very safe and easy to get vaccinated, so what’s the point? I’m going to check your profile — 90% chance you spread antivax propaganda. Edit: yup. Every time.
- wait_a_minute 5y ago
  It’s not your business to verify anything. It’s up to the individual to do what is best for their own situation. Focus on decisions for your own self and family.
  - fra 5y ago
    Your vaccination status impacts the people around you. There are folks who cannot be vaccinated (or who are not able to develop immunity from the vaccine). It is dangerous for them to be around unvaccinated people. So no, it is not just up to the individual to do what is best for them.
    - jaywalk 5y ago
      My whole point is that current policies are conflating immunity with vaccination, when the science says that immunity from a past infection is equivalent to immunity from vaccination. If I can provide a past positive Covid test or a positive antibody test, that is just as good as a record of being vaccinated. There is no scientific evidence to point to for believing otherwise.
      - JumpCrisscross 5y ago
        > a past positive Covid test or a positive antibody test, that is just as good as a record of being vaccinated Immunity from non-symptomatic infection differs wildly from symptomatic infection. It's also less flexible with new variants. I agree that there should be a way to document this. But there are still benefits to keeping certain spaces for the vaccinated only, to allow for denser mixing et cetera.
        wait_a_minute 5y ago
        There should not and will not be a centralized way to document any such thing in the USA, and we will not in the USA tolerate the idea of keeping "certain spaces for the vaccinated only" unless you're referring to hospitals only. We will not restrict entry into normalcy on the basis of status, be it vaccination or antibody status. Florida and other states have been open for a long time and the numbers have been consistently improving same as anywhere else, without any need for documentation or such mandates lol.
        JumpCrisscross 5y ago
        > we will not in the USA tolerate the idea of keeping "certain spaces for the vaccinated only" unless you're referring to hospitals only This is a regional thing. Most large events in New York have been mandating and verifying vaccination. Most major offices are tracking vaccination status--you're not barred, but you need to wear a mask if you aren't. (Though some are refusing the unvaccinated.) In dense, urban environments this is sort of necessary. In Jackson, Wyoming it's not.
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
        wait_a_minute 5y ago
        Sounds like New York will continue to lose population and significant tax revenue, then, by giving in to totalitarian ideas.
    - rajin444 5y ago
      Couldn't you say the same for people who choose to be obese? Not only are they consuming more resources, but they're weakening their immune systems, thus furthering the likelihood they'll spread covid and other diseases. I'm not saying this is a world I want to live in, but how do you decide where to draw the line?
      - wait_a_minute 5y ago
        They will not be logically consistent, and thankfully. Because if they were, we'd be going towards a really fucked up world. Generally you're right though. On their logic if pushed to its conclusion, all the totalitarianism in the world could be justified if it saves one person from dying of the flu or from dying of obesity.
      - fra 5y ago
        Are you saying it's as easy to lose weight as it is getting vaccinated? Obesity is a disease.
        rajin444 5y ago
        It's easier. For the majority of people, all you need to do is eat less. If you argument is that obese people do not have the ability to eat less, that is a much different discussion (with some implications I don't think many are comfortable with).
  - NorthTheRock 5y ago
    Isn't the entire point of a public health crisis like this that you can't just focus on yourself and your family, because doing so still has the potential to seriously impact or kill other people?
    - reedjosh 5y ago
      > Isn't the entire point of a public health crisis Ha, I like the wording. As if there's a point to a public health crisis. I mean, yeah this is _the_ point if the powers that be are orchestrating this. I just find the phrasing funny.
  - CameronNemo 5y ago
    If we all lived on rural properties sure. But we share the space we live in to a high degree. Vaccination status is a matter of collective public health.
    - wait_a_minute 5y ago
      No it's not. Not in the United States lol, unless you work at some hospitals. Get vaccinated and wear a mask to avoid the Delta strain and stay at home more. You don't need to know someone else's status when you've got your own protection. Whenever someone tries to justify something with "but the collective" alarm bells should really start going off. You know that in Florida and other states where there are no mandates like those, cases have been declining since last year and things are back to normal right?
      - CameronNemo 5y ago
        Masks do not provide as much protection for the users as for other people. I have a right to use public spaces.
        jaywalk 5y ago
        > I have a right to use public spaces. So do I, but you say I shouldn't because you're afraid.
        michaelmrose 5y ago
        Actually they could be safe from you if you were to vaccinate or wear a mask if you will not do so.
        wait_a_minute 5y ago
        We all have a right to use public space. If the users are not interested in the vaccination or don't already have antibodies, that is on them. They will have reaped what they sowed. It's not your business to police that though. And you ignored what I said about Florida and the other states where people have been going maskless for a long time without the numbers changing the trend.
  - btrfsck 5y ago
    The best solution for my own self and family is to be part of a system where we all agree to take basic precautions to safeguard the more vulnerable who cannot. If everyone who can get vaccinated does, then it fundamentally changes how dangerous the world is for those who are immunocompromised, or are too young to receive the vaccine. I wish that the number of people too selfish or foolish to receive the vaccine was small enough that we could protect them with herd immunity as well, but given the area around me seems to be stalling out at about 70% vaccinated, it is clear that we cannot. Being anti-vaccination or anti-medicine seems particularly foolish to me. Has anything else we've ever done in all of history come close to the positive humanitarian impact that the development of vaccines has? Aside, perhaps, from the development of antibiotics or sanitation or irrigation? Being able to vaccinate ourselves has to be one of the major legs up we've developed as a species in general. And people are choosing to discard it. I find it deeply frustrating.
    - wait_a_minute 5y ago
      It is not anti-vaccination or anti-medicine to say that it's not someone's business to verify anything. People can go about their own business in the form of a vaccination, a mask, staying at home, or all three until the pandemic is over. It's not someone else's business. That's just how it is in the States, sorry but not sorry. You know that Florida has been back to normal for a long time and covid cases have been consistently declining there? And other states too. Without any such expectations around nosey moral busybodies trying to get people's personal information for "verification"
      - michaelmrose 5y ago
        If Florida was its own country they would all be dead by now. Given that we know they falsified their numbers how can we draw any conclusions from them?
        wait_a_minute 5y ago
        What an illogical thing to say. Florida is its own state - are they all dead? No. And I have no good reason to suspect that Florida or Texas or etc are actually fudging their numbers to hide a negative trend. Too conspiratorial for me to just believe that.
  - kleer001 5y ago
    That's not how large groups of people work to contain infectious diseases. Anarchy doesn't scale. And dealing with contagious diseases needs to scale or there will be massive preventable suffering.
    - wait_a_minute 5y ago
      Get vaccinated and wear a mask to avoid the Delta strain. It's not "anarchy" to tell nosey people and some power-hungry office managers that this is not their business lol.
  - baq 5y ago
    it's a little known fact that ayn rand was on welfare.
- endisneigh 5y ago
  I’m not understanding your point - wouldn’t an antibody test or a positive Covid test be easy enough to show? Not sure how that’s any different than showing proof of a Covid vaccine
  - CameronNemo 5y ago
    Yes it would be easy, if we had planned for it ahead of time. Antibodies fade over time, so you can't do an antibody test much later. And neither antibody or viral tests would have been guarded for anti-spoofing or external verification. Some people may have just gotten a text or phone call from their health care provider, or used a self administered test.
  - xadhominemx 5y ago
    Studies have shown the common (LFIA) antibody tests administered to most people have specificity <50%
    - Nuzzerino 5y ago
      Which ones? I'm looking at this page and am seeing numbers in the high 90's https://www.fda.gov/medical-devices/coronavirus-disease-2019-covid-19-emergency-use-authorizations-medical-devices/eua-authorized-serology-test-performance https://www.fda.gov/medical-devices/coronavirus-disease-2019...
      - xadhominemx 5y ago
        Those are not LFIA tests
        Nuzzerino 5y ago
        Seems like in the context of this use case, the medical community would adopt the tests with the higher specificity, and there would be market pressure to lower the cost, if needed. Seems a bit of a reach to point to tests used for use case A to discount use case B.
- jaywalk 5y ago
  It's not hard to reliably verify previous infection at all. A past positive Covid test or a positive antibody test will reliably verify immunity just as well as a vaccination record. Go check my profile all you want. The science is crystal clear, and you don't even have an argument against it aside from trying to attack me as an anti-vaxxer (which I am certainly not).
  - willmadden 5y ago
    Please do not use the term "anti-vaxxer". There are countless vaccines with varying safety profiles, unknowns, and underlying risks for the diseases they prevent. People who make informed decisions about specific vaccines based on the risk/reward (and unknowns) are not "anti-vaxxers". It is not an all-or-nothing proposition.
    - michaelmrose 5y ago
      In theory this is true but in reality half of the US population just isn't smart enough to evaluate such a question and those who are hesitant are virtually exclusively drawn from this portion. This is well highlighted by the fact that the societal and individual risks of avoiding vaccination are so insanely high while the risk of vaccination is virtually insignificant. If I offered you a chance to skip rope or play Russian roulette with revolver with a bullet in one chamber and you opined about the danger of breaking your hip while skipping rope I would strong suspect you didn't understand the question.
      - willmadden 5y ago
        >those who are hesitant are virtually exclusively drawn from this portion. Well, that's complete BS. The list of people expressing concerns about the mRNA / spike protein based injections includes the inventor of the PCR test (Nobel Prize winner), the guy who invented Ivermectin (Nobel Prize winner), the guy credited with inventing mRNA vaccines, the guy who discovered that HIV causes AIDS (another Nobel Prize winner), and countless other famous researchers. These people are typically pro-vaccine in general, but have reservations about the new spike protein based mRNA vaccines. They are anything but "not smart enough to evaluate such a question". Here, give this a read: https://www.mdpi.com/2076-393X/9/7/693/htm https://www.mdpi.com/2076-393X/9/7/693/htm
- crazygringo 5y ago
  Good antibody tests are extremely (99%) accurate in verifying previous infection, not sure why you're claiming the opposite...? And while vaccination is safe and easy to get, both me and a lot of my friends were basically as sick as a regular flu for a day or two from it. Some people have no reaction, which is wonderful, but a lot of people need to take a sick day or two, or intentionally get the vaccine on a Friday and lose the weekend. It's obviously worth it to get the vaccine if you never had COVID, but if we can show that existing antibodies protect you just as well, then it would be a huge improvement for people not to have to suffer through the side effects.
  - xadhominemx 5y ago
    What is the population of people who are willing to get a blood draw for an accurate antibody test but haven’t been vaccinated already and can’t afford moderate flu-like symptoms for a day? I’m sure a small number of people like that exist but it’s not really worth carving out complex exceptions to vaccination rules (specifying which kind of antibody tests administered by who and when, etc.) to accommodate their preferences.
    - jaywalk 5y ago
      I've got a past positive Covid test. If that's not good enough, then why shouldn't every vaccinated person also have to go through the blood draw for an accurate antibody test to confirm their immunity? The vaccines are imperfect, just like all vaccines that have ever been created.
      - xadhominemx 5y ago
        I already said why. Please reference my previous comments.
    - reducesuffering 5y ago
      Because minority rights. >I’m sure a small number of people like that exist but it’s not really worth carving out complex exceptions to vaccination rules (specifying which kind of antibody tests administered by who and when, etc.) to accommodate their preferences. You might as well be saying this about accessibility rules for disabled people.
- EasyTiger_ 5y ago
  > I’m going to check your profile — 90% chance you spread antivax propaganda. You’re not on Reddit anymore friend
  - xadhominemx 5y ago
    Antivaxxers posing as somber hyper rational types never get held accountable. I’m just doing my part.
- Nuzzerino 5y ago
  Erm, I checked the profile as well. I didn't find any "propaganda" but rather reasonably argued dissent. Please don't resort to ad hominems even though it's in your name.
wait_a_minute 5y ago
If someone opposes that common sense, I’d have to wonder what their agenda is tbh.
- baq 5y ago
  back in the day it was common sense surgeons washing hands is pointless.
  - wait_a_minute 5y ago
    And? That doesn't change that there are still things which are common sense and rooted in basic logic accessible to anyone. That Nature journal article is one of those things.
    - baq 5y ago
      it was basic logic accessible to anyone that washing hands doesn't matter - it was, after all, just dirt and blood. it couldn't be proven that there was anything bad in dirt and blood.
      - wait_a_minute 5y ago
        So you think that Nature as a journal saying previous covid infection gives antibodies like the vaccines, is comparable to how primitive medical science once didn’t know you had to wash your hands before surgery?
        baq 5y ago
        yes, in that common sense is volatile and using basic logic in presence of unknown unknowns is a risky proposition. i don't particularly care about the paper because it doesn't apply to the variant which hasn't evolved yet.
mywittyname 5y ago
Vaccination is more comprehensive than natural immunity though. We've already see that the BNT vaccine offers a higher degree of protection against variants than natural immunity, or indeed other vaccines. Reinfection studies from a few months ago demonstrated that natural immunity is roughly 50% effective for people aged 65 or over. And that's the age group most likely to experience negative outcomes from covid-19, it's seems prudent to go ahead and recommend vaccinations for this age group, regardless of previous infection. Then there's the elephant in the room: so few people have been tested that it really difficult to know who has had it. Anyone who has had a cold in the past 18 months is going to claim they had covid, regardless of whether they tested positive or not. It would be easier to vaccinate this group than it would be to perform a test for covid antibodies. If covid hadn't become a political shit-show, I'd agree with you. But at this point, I think it's a little irresponsible to society to give anyone an out on getting vaccinated.
- YawningAngel 5y ago
  It's quite irresponsible to try and coerce people who don't need treatment to accept it as well
  - munk-a 5y ago
    No it isn't - it's providing unified and clear guidance on vaccination. I'm up in Canada where vaccine hesitancy has been almost unheard of[1] and those who refuse to get vaccinated, excepting those that can't for medical reasons, are ostracized for their overtly selfish actions. The US, though, has a real problem with disinformation being accepted more readily than fact. I am fine with the theory of having a nuanced and technical discussion of vaccine efficacy but I think it's pretty clear that that discussion can't happen in the public forum due to continued calls that hydroxychloroquine is an equally valid solution. 1. https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explorer?zoomToSelection=true&pickerSort=desc&pickerMetric=total_vaccinations&Interval=Cumulative&Relative+to+Population=true&Align+outbreaks=false&country=CAN~USA&Metric=Vaccine+doses https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explor...
    - 5y ago
tunesmith 5y ago
Just saw a quote from Gottlieb the other day saying that they think the vaccine is more protective against COVID generally than natural immunity... the variants also seem more likely to pierce prior immunity... and that what's really protective is if you get vaccinated after natural infection. (paraphrased, but pretty close.) Also, generally speaking, people who caught COVID were contagious for a while, while vaccinated people aren't. So there's the social responsibility factor - if you have a lifestyle where you at all likely to be among people while contagious, getting vaccinated reduces risk for others.
- vxNsr 5y ago
  > Just saw a quote from Gottlieb Who is this? Why do we care what he says? Can you provide a source for the quote? The Cleveland clinic disagrees with your “authoritative” quote (see comments above)
  - tunesmith 5y ago
    Dr. Scott Gottlieb, former commissioner of FDA, https://twitter.com/SquawkCNBC/status/1409465340292222986 https://twitter.com/SquawkCNBC/status/1409465340292222986
    - vxNsr 5y ago
      Thanks, he doesn’t directly address this new study. And uses soft, non-definitive language that can be walked back if needed. Not saying I don’t appreciate you providing the source, but as far as what he says vs what you said he said… it’s a little different. I’d also like to add, I don’t think many ppl are thinking they’d rather get the disease vs the vaccine, rather, if they already got the disease, is there a real benefit vs the risks of the vaccine (eg the heart stuff we’re seeing now). Personally I was careful and never got sick, so I got the vaxx ASAP, but I do think it’s a fair and legitimate concern.
JumpCrisscross 5y ago
> zero scientific evidence to the contrary, and plenty of evidence to support it We have evidence that vaccination continue to provide broad-spectrum immunity while those naturally immune are e.g. still vulnerable to the Delta variant [1]. [1] https://directorsblog.nih.gov/2021/06/22/how-immunity-generated-from-covid-19-vaccines-differs-from-an-infection/ https://directorsblog.nih.gov/2021/06/22/how-immunity-genera...
- braincat31415 5y ago
  The Wall Street Journal reported Friday that about half of adults infected in an outbreak of the delta variant in Israel were fully vaccinated with the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine Source CNBC.
  - cogman10 5y ago
    Can I see a link? I'm not finding the same report. Instead I'm finding these [1] which point to the vaccine being highly effective at keeping you out of the hospital. [1] https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/uk-study-finds-vaccines-offer-high-protection-against-hospitalisation-delta-2021-06-14/ https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/...
  - incrudible 5y ago
    Moreover, half of the deaths from the delta variant in the UK occured in fully vaccinated individuals: https://www.businessinsider.com/vaccinated-among-delta-deaths-but-older-relatively-few-uk-data-2021-6 https://www.businessinsider.com/vaccinated-among-delta-death... I would see two main reasons for this: - vaccinations are far from "94% effective" in the age groups who need it the most (elderly with weakened immune systems) - deaths are over-counted (death from any cause within 28 days is counted as COVID death)
    - baq 5y ago
      you conveniently miss the fact that if more people were vaccinated, delta wouldn't have spread this fast and perhaps wouldn't even come to be or would die out before it could spread.
maxerickson 5y ago
Vaccine induced immunity is natural too, it's the same mechanism, exposure to an antigen triggers a response in the body. Really, "naturally immune" would imply a pre-existing immunity to the infection.
detaro 5y ago
Combination of previous infection and a vaccine dose gives you better coverage, the second is less needed. (And e.g. here in Germany proof of previous infection + one dose counts as fully vaccinated)

It's time for the naturally immune to be treated the same as those who've been vaccinated. There is absolutely zero scientific evidence to the contrary, and plenty of evidence to support it.

xadhominemx 5y ago

It’s hard to reliably verify previous infection and very safe and easy to get vaccinated, so what’s the point? I’m going to check your profile — 90% chance you spread antivax propaganda. Edit: yup. Every time.

wait_a_minute 5y ago
It’s not your business to verify anything. It’s up to the individual to do what is best for their own situation. Focus on decisions for your own self and family.
- fra 5y ago
  Your vaccination status impacts the people around you. There are folks who cannot be vaccinated (or who are not able to develop immunity from the vaccine). It is dangerous for them to be around unvaccinated people. So no, it is not just up to the individual to do what is best for them.
  - jaywalk 5y ago
    My whole point is that current policies are conflating immunity with vaccination, when the science says that immunity from a past infection is equivalent to immunity from vaccination. If I can provide a past positive Covid test or a positive antibody test, that is just as good as a record of being vaccinated. There is no scientific evidence to point to for believing otherwise.
    - JumpCrisscross 5y ago
      > a past positive Covid test or a positive antibody test, that is just as good as a record of being vaccinated Immunity from non-symptomatic infection differs wildly from symptomatic infection. It's also less flexible with new variants. I agree that there should be a way to document this. But there are still benefits to keeping certain spaces for the vaccinated only, to allow for denser mixing et cetera.
      - wait_a_minute 5y ago
        There should not and will not be a centralized way to document any such thing in the USA, and we will not in the USA tolerate the idea of keeping "certain spaces for the vaccinated only" unless you're referring to hospitals only. We will not restrict entry into normalcy on the basis of status, be it vaccination or antibody status. Florida and other states have been open for a long time and the numbers have been consistently improving same as anywhere else, without any need for documentation or such mandates lol.
        JumpCrisscross 5y ago
        > we will not in the USA tolerate the idea of keeping "certain spaces for the vaccinated only" unless you're referring to hospitals only This is a regional thing. Most large events in New York have been mandating and verifying vaccination. Most major offices are tracking vaccination status--you're not barred, but you need to wear a mask if you aren't. (Though some are refusing the unvaccinated.) In dense, urban environments this is sort of necessary. In Jackson, Wyoming it's not.
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
        wait_a_minute 5y ago
        Sounds like New York will continue to lose population and significant tax revenue, then, by giving in to totalitarian ideas.
  - rajin444 5y ago
    Couldn't you say the same for people who choose to be obese? Not only are they consuming more resources, but they're weakening their immune systems, thus furthering the likelihood they'll spread covid and other diseases. I'm not saying this is a world I want to live in, but how do you decide where to draw the line?
    - wait_a_minute 5y ago
      They will not be logically consistent, and thankfully. Because if they were, we'd be going towards a really fucked up world. Generally you're right though. On their logic if pushed to its conclusion, all the totalitarianism in the world could be justified if it saves one person from dying of the flu or from dying of obesity.
    - fra 5y ago
      Are you saying it's as easy to lose weight as it is getting vaccinated? Obesity is a disease.
      - rajin444 5y ago
        It's easier. For the majority of people, all you need to do is eat less. If you argument is that obese people do not have the ability to eat less, that is a much different discussion (with some implications I don't think many are comfortable with).
- NorthTheRock 5y ago
  Isn't the entire point of a public health crisis like this that you can't just focus on yourself and your family, because doing so still has the potential to seriously impact or kill other people?
  - reedjosh 5y ago
    > Isn't the entire point of a public health crisis Ha, I like the wording. As if there's a point to a public health crisis. I mean, yeah this is _the_ point if the powers that be are orchestrating this. I just find the phrasing funny.
- CameronNemo 5y ago
  If we all lived on rural properties sure. But we share the space we live in to a high degree. Vaccination status is a matter of collective public health.
  - wait_a_minute 5y ago
    No it's not. Not in the United States lol, unless you work at some hospitals. Get vaccinated and wear a mask to avoid the Delta strain and stay at home more. You don't need to know someone else's status when you've got your own protection. Whenever someone tries to justify something with "but the collective" alarm bells should really start going off. You know that in Florida and other states where there are no mandates like those, cases have been declining since last year and things are back to normal right?
    - CameronNemo 5y ago
      Masks do not provide as much protection for the users as for other people. I have a right to use public spaces.
      - jaywalk 5y ago
        > I have a right to use public spaces. So do I, but you say I shouldn't because you're afraid.
        michaelmrose 5y ago
        Actually they could be safe from you if you were to vaccinate or wear a mask if you will not do so.
      - wait_a_minute 5y ago
        We all have a right to use public space. If the users are not interested in the vaccination or don't already have antibodies, that is on them. They will have reaped what they sowed. It's not your business to police that though. And you ignored what I said about Florida and the other states where people have been going maskless for a long time without the numbers changing the trend.
- btrfsck 5y ago
  The best solution for my own self and family is to be part of a system where we all agree to take basic precautions to safeguard the more vulnerable who cannot. If everyone who can get vaccinated does, then it fundamentally changes how dangerous the world is for those who are immunocompromised, or are too young to receive the vaccine. I wish that the number of people too selfish or foolish to receive the vaccine was small enough that we could protect them with herd immunity as well, but given the area around me seems to be stalling out at about 70% vaccinated, it is clear that we cannot. Being anti-vaccination or anti-medicine seems particularly foolish to me. Has anything else we've ever done in all of history come close to the positive humanitarian impact that the development of vaccines has? Aside, perhaps, from the development of antibiotics or sanitation or irrigation? Being able to vaccinate ourselves has to be one of the major legs up we've developed as a species in general. And people are choosing to discard it. I find it deeply frustrating.
  - wait_a_minute 5y ago
    It is not anti-vaccination or anti-medicine to say that it's not someone's business to verify anything. People can go about their own business in the form of a vaccination, a mask, staying at home, or all three until the pandemic is over. It's not someone else's business. That's just how it is in the States, sorry but not sorry. You know that Florida has been back to normal for a long time and covid cases have been consistently declining there? And other states too. Without any such expectations around nosey moral busybodies trying to get people's personal information for "verification"
    - michaelmrose 5y ago
      If Florida was its own country they would all be dead by now. Given that we know they falsified their numbers how can we draw any conclusions from them?
      - wait_a_minute 5y ago
        What an illogical thing to say. Florida is its own state - are they all dead? No. And I have no good reason to suspect that Florida or Texas or etc are actually fudging their numbers to hide a negative trend. Too conspiratorial for me to just believe that.
- kleer001 5y ago
  That's not how large groups of people work to contain infectious diseases. Anarchy doesn't scale. And dealing with contagious diseases needs to scale or there will be massive preventable suffering.
  - wait_a_minute 5y ago
    Get vaccinated and wear a mask to avoid the Delta strain. It's not "anarchy" to tell nosey people and some power-hungry office managers that this is not their business lol.
- baq 5y ago
  it's a little known fact that ayn rand was on welfare.
endisneigh 5y ago
I’m not understanding your point - wouldn’t an antibody test or a positive Covid test be easy enough to show? Not sure how that’s any different than showing proof of a Covid vaccine
- CameronNemo 5y ago
  Yes it would be easy, if we had planned for it ahead of time. Antibodies fade over time, so you can't do an antibody test much later. And neither antibody or viral tests would have been guarded for anti-spoofing or external verification. Some people may have just gotten a text or phone call from their health care provider, or used a self administered test.
- xadhominemx 5y ago
  Studies have shown the common (LFIA) antibody tests administered to most people have specificity <50%
  - Nuzzerino 5y ago
    Which ones? I'm looking at this page and am seeing numbers in the high 90's https://www.fda.gov/medical-devices/coronavirus-disease-2019-covid-19-emergency-use-authorizations-medical-devices/eua-authorized-serology-test-performance https://www.fda.gov/medical-devices/coronavirus-disease-2019...
    - xadhominemx 5y ago
      Those are not LFIA tests
      - Nuzzerino 5y ago
        Seems like in the context of this use case, the medical community would adopt the tests with the higher specificity, and there would be market pressure to lower the cost, if needed. Seems a bit of a reach to point to tests used for use case A to discount use case B.
jaywalk 5y ago
It's not hard to reliably verify previous infection at all. A past positive Covid test or a positive antibody test will reliably verify immunity just as well as a vaccination record. Go check my profile all you want. The science is crystal clear, and you don't even have an argument against it aside from trying to attack me as an anti-vaxxer (which I am certainly not).
- willmadden 5y ago
  Please do not use the term "anti-vaxxer". There are countless vaccines with varying safety profiles, unknowns, and underlying risks for the diseases they prevent. People who make informed decisions about specific vaccines based on the risk/reward (and unknowns) are not "anti-vaxxers". It is not an all-or-nothing proposition.
  - michaelmrose 5y ago
    In theory this is true but in reality half of the US population just isn't smart enough to evaluate such a question and those who are hesitant are virtually exclusively drawn from this portion. This is well highlighted by the fact that the societal and individual risks of avoiding vaccination are so insanely high while the risk of vaccination is virtually insignificant. If I offered you a chance to skip rope or play Russian roulette with revolver with a bullet in one chamber and you opined about the danger of breaking your hip while skipping rope I would strong suspect you didn't understand the question.
    - willmadden 5y ago
      >those who are hesitant are virtually exclusively drawn from this portion. Well, that's complete BS. The list of people expressing concerns about the mRNA / spike protein based injections includes the inventor of the PCR test (Nobel Prize winner), the guy who invented Ivermectin (Nobel Prize winner), the guy credited with inventing mRNA vaccines, the guy who discovered that HIV causes AIDS (another Nobel Prize winner), and countless other famous researchers. These people are typically pro-vaccine in general, but have reservations about the new spike protein based mRNA vaccines. They are anything but "not smart enough to evaluate such a question". Here, give this a read: https://www.mdpi.com/2076-393X/9/7/693/htm https://www.mdpi.com/2076-393X/9/7/693/htm
crazygringo 5y ago
Good antibody tests are extremely (99%) accurate in verifying previous infection, not sure why you're claiming the opposite...? And while vaccination is safe and easy to get, both me and a lot of my friends were basically as sick as a regular flu for a day or two from it. Some people have no reaction, which is wonderful, but a lot of people need to take a sick day or two, or intentionally get the vaccine on a Friday and lose the weekend. It's obviously worth it to get the vaccine if you never had COVID, but if we can show that existing antibodies protect you just as well, then it would be a huge improvement for people not to have to suffer through the side effects.
- xadhominemx 5y ago
  What is the population of people who are willing to get a blood draw for an accurate antibody test but haven’t been vaccinated already and can’t afford moderate flu-like symptoms for a day? I’m sure a small number of people like that exist but it’s not really worth carving out complex exceptions to vaccination rules (specifying which kind of antibody tests administered by who and when, etc.) to accommodate their preferences.
  - jaywalk 5y ago
    I've got a past positive Covid test. If that's not good enough, then why shouldn't every vaccinated person also have to go through the blood draw for an accurate antibody test to confirm their immunity? The vaccines are imperfect, just like all vaccines that have ever been created.
    - xadhominemx 5y ago
      I already said why. Please reference my previous comments.
  - reducesuffering 5y ago
    Because minority rights. >I’m sure a small number of people like that exist but it’s not really worth carving out complex exceptions to vaccination rules (specifying which kind of antibody tests administered by who and when, etc.) to accommodate their preferences. You might as well be saying this about accessibility rules for disabled people.
EasyTiger_ 5y ago
> I’m going to check your profile — 90% chance you spread antivax propaganda. You’re not on Reddit anymore friend
- xadhominemx 5y ago
  Antivaxxers posing as somber hyper rational types never get held accountable. I’m just doing my part.
Nuzzerino 5y ago
Erm, I checked the profile as well. I didn't find any "propaganda" but rather reasonably argued dissent. Please don't resort to ad hominems even though it's in your name.

wait_a_minute 5y ago

If someone opposes that common sense, I’d have to wonder what their agenda is tbh.

baq 5y ago
back in the day it was common sense surgeons washing hands is pointless.
- wait_a_minute 5y ago
  And? That doesn't change that there are still things which are common sense and rooted in basic logic accessible to anyone. That Nature journal article is one of those things.
  - baq 5y ago
    it was basic logic accessible to anyone that washing hands doesn't matter - it was, after all, just dirt and blood. it couldn't be proven that there was anything bad in dirt and blood.
    - wait_a_minute 5y ago
      So you think that Nature as a journal saying previous covid infection gives antibodies like the vaccines, is comparable to how primitive medical science once didn’t know you had to wash your hands before surgery?
      - baq 5y ago
        yes, in that common sense is volatile and using basic logic in presence of unknown unknowns is a risky proposition. i don't particularly care about the paper because it doesn't apply to the variant which hasn't evolved yet.

mywittyname 5y ago

Vaccination is more comprehensive than natural immunity though. We've already see that the BNT vaccine offers a higher degree of protection against variants than natural immunity, or indeed other vaccines. Reinfection studies from a few months ago demonstrated that natural immunity is roughly 50% effective for people aged 65 or over. And that's the age group most likely to experience negative outcomes from covid-19, it's seems prudent to go ahead and recommend vaccinations for this age group, regardless of previous infection. Then there's the elephant in the room: so few people have been tested that it really difficult to know who has had it. Anyone who has had a cold in the past 18 months is going to claim they had covid, regardless of whether they tested positive or not. It would be easier to vaccinate this group than it would be to perform a test for covid antibodies. If covid hadn't become a political shit-show, I'd agree with you. But at this point, I think it's a little irresponsible to society to give anyone an out on getting vaccinated.

YawningAngel 5y ago
It's quite irresponsible to try and coerce people who don't need treatment to accept it as well
- munk-a 5y ago
  No it isn't - it's providing unified and clear guidance on vaccination. I'm up in Canada where vaccine hesitancy has been almost unheard of[1] and those who refuse to get vaccinated, excepting those that can't for medical reasons, are ostracized for their overtly selfish actions. The US, though, has a real problem with disinformation being accepted more readily than fact. I am fine with the theory of having a nuanced and technical discussion of vaccine efficacy but I think it's pretty clear that that discussion can't happen in the public forum due to continued calls that hydroxychloroquine is an equally valid solution. 1. https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explorer?zoomToSelection=true&pickerSort=desc&pickerMetric=total_vaccinations&Interval=Cumulative&Relative+to+Population=true&Align+outbreaks=false&country=CAN~USA&Metric=Vaccine+doses https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explor...
  - 5y ago

tunesmith 5y ago

Just saw a quote from Gottlieb the other day saying that they think the vaccine is more protective against COVID generally than natural immunity... the variants also seem more likely to pierce prior immunity... and that what's really protective is if you get vaccinated after natural infection. (paraphrased, but pretty close.) Also, generally speaking, people who caught COVID were contagious for a while, while vaccinated people aren't. So there's the social responsibility factor - if you have a lifestyle where you at all likely to be among people while contagious, getting vaccinated reduces risk for others.

vxNsr 5y ago
> Just saw a quote from Gottlieb Who is this? Why do we care what he says? Can you provide a source for the quote? The Cleveland clinic disagrees with your “authoritative” quote (see comments above)
- tunesmith 5y ago
  Dr. Scott Gottlieb, former commissioner of FDA, https://twitter.com/SquawkCNBC/status/1409465340292222986 https://twitter.com/SquawkCNBC/status/1409465340292222986
  - vxNsr 5y ago
    Thanks, he doesn’t directly address this new study. And uses soft, non-definitive language that can be walked back if needed. Not saying I don’t appreciate you providing the source, but as far as what he says vs what you said he said… it’s a little different. I’d also like to add, I don’t think many ppl are thinking they’d rather get the disease vs the vaccine, rather, if they already got the disease, is there a real benefit vs the risks of the vaccine (eg the heart stuff we’re seeing now). Personally I was careful and never got sick, so I got the vaxx ASAP, but I do think it’s a fair and legitimate concern.

JumpCrisscross 5y ago

> zero scientific evidence to the contrary, and plenty of evidence to support it We have evidence that vaccination continue to provide broad-spectrum immunity while those naturally immune are e.g. still vulnerable to the Delta variant [1]. [1] https://directorsblog.nih.gov/2021/06/22/how-immunity-generated-from-covid-19-vaccines-differs-from-an-infection/ https://directorsblog.nih.gov/2021/06/22/how-immunity-genera...

braincat31415 5y ago
The Wall Street Journal reported Friday that about half of adults infected in an outbreak of the delta variant in Israel were fully vaccinated with the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine Source CNBC.
- cogman10 5y ago
  Can I see a link? I'm not finding the same report. Instead I'm finding these [1] which point to the vaccine being highly effective at keeping you out of the hospital. [1] https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/uk-study-finds-vaccines-offer-high-protection-against-hospitalisation-delta-2021-06-14/ https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/...
- incrudible 5y ago
  Moreover, half of the deaths from the delta variant in the UK occured in fully vaccinated individuals: https://www.businessinsider.com/vaccinated-among-delta-deaths-but-older-relatively-few-uk-data-2021-6 https://www.businessinsider.com/vaccinated-among-delta-death... I would see two main reasons for this: - vaccinations are far from "94% effective" in the age groups who need it the most (elderly with weakened immune systems) - deaths are over-counted (death from any cause within 28 days is counted as COVID death)
  - baq 5y ago
    you conveniently miss the fact that if more people were vaccinated, delta wouldn't have spread this fast and perhaps wouldn't even come to be or would die out before it could spread.

maxerickson 5y ago

Vaccine induced immunity is natural too, it's the same mechanism, exposure to an antigen triggers a response in the body. Really, "naturally immune" would imply a pre-existing immunity to the infection.

detaro 5y ago

Combination of previous infection and a vaccine dose gives you better coverage, the second is less needed. (And e.g. here in Germany proof of previous infection + one dose counts as fully vaccinated)