6 ms·

This requirement just does not make sense to me. Why would Microsoft even have this requirement? Do they want to force users into an account so it is easier to

This requirement just does not make sense to me. Why would Microsoft even have this requirement? Do they want to force users into an account so it is easier to lead them into Office packages? It can't be for greater data profiles on users since they could do this in other less explicit ways. Microsoft just doesn't have the ecosystem like Apple to make this worthwhile from their point of view or the users.

romanovcode 5y ago
OneDrive, Edge (if you're into it) and setting sync. What do you mean it does not makes sense? I am not using MS login myself but saying it doesn't make sense is ridiculous. It's exactly same as what Apple does. As for people who say it's required on Windows: It's not. You can create local account during setup, the link is there once you cancel your online login. It's hidden at first, but it's there. You don't even have to disconnect your internet or anything like that. Shit move by MS (dark UI pattern) but it is totally possible.
- iwasakabukiman 5y ago
  I can set up and sign in to MacOS without using my Apple ID though.
  - jptech 5y ago
    Correct me if i'm wrong but I think you still need to go online to finish the setup process?
    - skohan 5y ago
      I'm pretty sure you don't need a network connection to set up a mac unless this has changed in recent releases.
    - vetinari 5y ago
      No, you don't need to. There is zero-touch enterprise provisioning available, that requires you to be connected to a suitably configured local network (if learns about what it needs from dhcp tags), but this is not something that normal users need to be concerned about. For a non-MDM-managed mac, you can do everything offline just fine. Or you can be online, if you do not want to use iCloud account (I'm not using it either), you can finish the OOBE wizard and everything will be just like the user wants.
- thelibrarian 5y ago
  No, it is not. Apple does encourage setting up/associating an Apple ID account, it is not a requirement.
  - romanovcode 5y ago
    God damn it how many times I have to say it: it's not required on Windows as well! You click cancel, then click tiny link at bottom to create local account. You are talking about things you have no idea about man.
    - lovelyviking 5y ago
      It seems you'll have to say it many times more untill this dark pattern will be removed. Apple uses the same teqchinque to trick you into using iCloud making it look like requrement for use your iPhone. For my taste it is cheating and dsigusting because even when you know it can be avoided you should work hard to find it especially when you are in a hurry and this trouble is by "design".
    - Brendinooo 5y ago
      The article is saying that it's going to be mandatory for the new home version of Windows.
    - Bedon292 5y ago
      In the latest releases of Win 10 Home, at least once you have connected to the network, that button does not exist. They prompt you to enter your WiFi info first, then ask you to log in. And once you have entered the WiFi info you cannot get back to that screen and remove it until after you have set everything up. At least not without a factory reset, which I didn't actually try. They force you to log in with a MS account during the initial setup then once you are in you can add a local admin account. Then you can log into it and remove the MS account. Its absolutely horrible. I have been dealing with this a lot lately, had several laptops that were Home and could not get in to them without the MS account. Its a huge pain.
    - simiones 5y ago
      You can say it however many times you want, but you are wrong. You would have been right had you been talking about Windows 10 Home ~1-2 years ago. But today, Windows 10 Home only gives you the option to login with a local account if you are offline (no cable, no WiFi) or you fail to login to an MS account multiple times. Only in one of those cases do they give you a small, relatively hidden option to use the local account.
- CannisterFlux 5y ago
  Apparently in Windows 11 they removed that loophole, and now you require an internet connection at least once during setup to proceed.
  - naikrovek 5y ago
    Windows 11 Home only. Pro, Enterprise, and Education don't have this requirement.
    - dividedbyzero 5y ago
      Are any of these freely sold to individuals, or do you only get them as part of larger deals?
      - vel0city 5y ago
        Pro is sold to individuals and you can easily get a laptop with a Pro license from an OEM.
        dividedbyzero 5y ago
        Seems like there's also Pro for Workstations. Also, full disk encryption seems to only be available in Pro?
        naikrovek 5y ago
        Yes. Well, BitLocker is in Pro, Pro for Workstations and Enterprise. Same for Hyper-V, if that matters to you; not available in Home. Home edition is for non-commercial use. I don't know if that's in the EULA or not, but that's the use case that Home is meant for. Pro and higher are for work use cases, and features add on as you go up the line. Pro for Workstations and Enterprise support slightly different feature sets, IIRC. Creating new ReFS filesystems is only available on Pro for Workstations, for example.
        5y ago
- toast0 5y ago
  On Windows 10 Home, in latest releases, you actually need to disconnect the cable to get the move on without a Microsoft account links to show up. Word on the street is Windows 11 is going to make them actually mandatory on Home, instead of only pretend mandatory with lots of prompting.
  - oauea 5y ago
    Unless it changed very recently you can also enter a bogus email address several times. Not that that is much better.
johnchristopher 5y ago
They used to have things like passport.net way back then, their blogging platform was also tied to a hotmail account, etc.
addicted 5y ago
To be honest, I think it’s as simple as it being a better experience for the type of people who would buy the Home edition. Forcing them to log in with a MS account allows MS to provide a lot of the services people expect using Android or iOS as their primary devices. For one thing, both those devices pretty much require an online account as well. And they contain far more sensitive data. But more importantly, they also provide frictionless backups, syncing, and a whole host of online services as table stakes, and MS wants to do the same.
- fsloth 5y ago
  "I think it’s as simple as it being a better experience for the type of people who would buy the Home edition. ... allows MS to provide a lot of the services people expect using Android or iOS as their primary devices. This. 100 times. The main compute device people as a population are familiar with is the cellphone/tablet, and usage patterns that differ from this are becoming the odd man out. Consumer tech. Commoditization. Etc. We've come a long way from the 1970's. The computer as a commodity is actually not the same as a computer as a gizmo for the technically minded enthusiast.
  - blendergeek 5y ago
    Android devices give the users this choice. Android devices are definitely made for regular consumers. Already, on Windows 10, all normal users used an MS account. The only way to get around it was to set up a computer without internet and then click some non obvious buttons while the computer begged for an MS account. If the goal was making it easy for normal users to have an MS account, Windows 10 succeeded. The change here is that power users no longer have the choice to not use a cloud account. This change provides no benefit to the average user.
  - hulitu 5y ago
    > This. 100 times. > The main compute device people as a population are familiar with is the cellphone/tablet, and usage patterns that differ from this are becoming the odd man out. (Smart)phones and tablets are not computing devices any more than a refrigerator. You cannot do any real work on them. Even finding a text editor, let alone editing, is a challenge. Other stuff like SW development or CAD/CAE is the same. > Consumer tech. Commoditization. Etc. Nothing to do with it. Just pure control and data collection. > We've come a long way from the 1970's. The computer as a commodity is actually not the same as a computer as a gizmo for the technically minded enthusiast. We are back in the 1960 with disabled user interfaces. When you need to search the internet to disable dark patterns is the same like reading the source code to check with which options to invoke the shell.
discordance 5y ago
You need a Microsoft account to log into Teams, which is integrated into Win11. Teams seems like a big bet for Microsoft, so that's one reason.
- HelloNurse 5y ago
  Hopefully it will have to be disintegrated for enterprise customers who aren't going to use Microsoft accounts, and presumably for everybody. Antitrust prosecution might also help.
heresie-dabord 5y ago
This is how Chromebooks work. A Google account is needed to sign-in. The motive is not mysterious -- I don't believe it is security, it is pushing free services to collect more data. We all know that selling people's data is deliriously profitable. Of course, people will create less-attributable accounts.
- spijdar 5y ago
  Ironically, even Chromebooks allow you to use a guest account, while you absolutely must use a Microsoft account on Win11.
MrBuddyCasino 5y ago
I suspect they are testing the waters and see how far they can go with W11. If there is enough outrage about a particular issue, they will simply drop it.
adolfojp 5y ago
In addition to what others have said, Microsoft accounts back up your full disk encryption keys to the cloud. Microsoft ships Bitlocker with every OS and given the TPM requirements one can speculate that it will be turned on by default on every Windows 11 computer. I've seen an increase of tech support posts where people boot up their computer after an update or motherboard change and they're asked for Bitlocker decryption keys and they don't know what those are. Their data is lost forever. Their computers are bricked. The experience of working in IT and modding online tech communities has taught me that computer literacy is very poor even among those who use computers every day. They're just appliances to most people. And this is OK. The problem is that the people who can't figure out what a right click does will never figure out how to back up their full disk encryption keys or even what they are. Forcing a Microsoft account on Home SKUs eliminates this problem.

romanovcode 5y ago

OneDrive, Edge (if you're into it) and setting sync. What do you mean it does not makes sense? I am not using MS login myself but saying it doesn't make sense is ridiculous. It's exactly same as what Apple does. As for people who say it's required on Windows: It's not. You can create local account during setup, the link is there once you cancel your online login. It's hidden at first, but it's there. You don't even have to disconnect your internet or anything like that. Shit move by MS (dark UI pattern) but it is totally possible.

iwasakabukiman 5y ago
I can set up and sign in to MacOS without using my Apple ID though.
- jptech 5y ago
  Correct me if i'm wrong but I think you still need to go online to finish the setup process?
  - skohan 5y ago
    I'm pretty sure you don't need a network connection to set up a mac unless this has changed in recent releases.
  - vetinari 5y ago
    No, you don't need to. There is zero-touch enterprise provisioning available, that requires you to be connected to a suitably configured local network (if learns about what it needs from dhcp tags), but this is not something that normal users need to be concerned about. For a non-MDM-managed mac, you can do everything offline just fine. Or you can be online, if you do not want to use iCloud account (I'm not using it either), you can finish the OOBE wizard and everything will be just like the user wants.
thelibrarian 5y ago
No, it is not. Apple does encourage setting up/associating an Apple ID account, it is not a requirement.
- romanovcode 5y ago
  God damn it how many times I have to say it: it's not required on Windows as well! You click cancel, then click tiny link at bottom to create local account. You are talking about things you have no idea about man.
  - lovelyviking 5y ago
    It seems you'll have to say it many times more untill this dark pattern will be removed. Apple uses the same teqchinque to trick you into using iCloud making it look like requrement for use your iPhone. For my taste it is cheating and dsigusting because even when you know it can be avoided you should work hard to find it especially when you are in a hurry and this trouble is by "design".
  - Brendinooo 5y ago
    The article is saying that it's going to be mandatory for the new home version of Windows.
  - Bedon292 5y ago
    In the latest releases of Win 10 Home, at least once you have connected to the network, that button does not exist. They prompt you to enter your WiFi info first, then ask you to log in. And once you have entered the WiFi info you cannot get back to that screen and remove it until after you have set everything up. At least not without a factory reset, which I didn't actually try. They force you to log in with a MS account during the initial setup then once you are in you can add a local admin account. Then you can log into it and remove the MS account. Its absolutely horrible. I have been dealing with this a lot lately, had several laptops that were Home and could not get in to them without the MS account. Its a huge pain.
  - simiones 5y ago
    You can say it however many times you want, but you are wrong. You would have been right had you been talking about Windows 10 Home ~1-2 years ago. But today, Windows 10 Home only gives you the option to login with a local account if you are offline (no cable, no WiFi) or you fail to login to an MS account multiple times. Only in one of those cases do they give you a small, relatively hidden option to use the local account.
CannisterFlux 5y ago
Apparently in Windows 11 they removed that loophole, and now you require an internet connection at least once during setup to proceed.
- naikrovek 5y ago
  Windows 11 Home only. Pro, Enterprise, and Education don't have this requirement.
  - dividedbyzero 5y ago
    Are any of these freely sold to individuals, or do you only get them as part of larger deals?
    - vel0city 5y ago
      Pro is sold to individuals and you can easily get a laptop with a Pro license from an OEM.
      - dividedbyzero 5y ago
        Seems like there's also Pro for Workstations. Also, full disk encryption seems to only be available in Pro?
        naikrovek 5y ago
        Yes. Well, BitLocker is in Pro, Pro for Workstations and Enterprise. Same for Hyper-V, if that matters to you; not available in Home. Home edition is for non-commercial use. I don't know if that's in the EULA or not, but that's the use case that Home is meant for. Pro and higher are for work use cases, and features add on as you go up the line. Pro for Workstations and Enterprise support slightly different feature sets, IIRC. Creating new ReFS filesystems is only available on Pro for Workstations, for example.
        5y ago
toast0 5y ago
On Windows 10 Home, in latest releases, you actually need to disconnect the cable to get the move on without a Microsoft account links to show up. Word on the street is Windows 11 is going to make them actually mandatory on Home, instead of only pretend mandatory with lots of prompting.
- oauea 5y ago
  Unless it changed very recently you can also enter a bogus email address several times. Not that that is much better.

johnchristopher 5y ago

They used to have things like passport.net way back then, their blogging platform was also tied to a hotmail account, etc.

addicted 5y ago

To be honest, I think it’s as simple as it being a better experience for the type of people who would buy the Home edition. Forcing them to log in with a MS account allows MS to provide a lot of the services people expect using Android or iOS as their primary devices. For one thing, both those devices pretty much require an online account as well. And they contain far more sensitive data. But more importantly, they also provide frictionless backups, syncing, and a whole host of online services as table stakes, and MS wants to do the same.

fsloth 5y ago
"I think it’s as simple as it being a better experience for the type of people who would buy the Home edition. ... allows MS to provide a lot of the services people expect using Android or iOS as their primary devices. This. 100 times. The main compute device people as a population are familiar with is the cellphone/tablet, and usage patterns that differ from this are becoming the odd man out. Consumer tech. Commoditization. Etc. We've come a long way from the 1970's. The computer as a commodity is actually not the same as a computer as a gizmo for the technically minded enthusiast.
- blendergeek 5y ago
  Android devices give the users this choice. Android devices are definitely made for regular consumers. Already, on Windows 10, all normal users used an MS account. The only way to get around it was to set up a computer without internet and then click some non obvious buttons while the computer begged for an MS account. If the goal was making it easy for normal users to have an MS account, Windows 10 succeeded. The change here is that power users no longer have the choice to not use a cloud account. This change provides no benefit to the average user.
- hulitu 5y ago
  > This. 100 times. > The main compute device people as a population are familiar with is the cellphone/tablet, and usage patterns that differ from this are becoming the odd man out. (Smart)phones and tablets are not computing devices any more than a refrigerator. You cannot do any real work on them. Even finding a text editor, let alone editing, is a challenge. Other stuff like SW development or CAD/CAE is the same. > Consumer tech. Commoditization. Etc. Nothing to do with it. Just pure control and data collection. > We've come a long way from the 1970's. The computer as a commodity is actually not the same as a computer as a gizmo for the technically minded enthusiast. We are back in the 1960 with disabled user interfaces. When you need to search the internet to disable dark patterns is the same like reading the source code to check with which options to invoke the shell.

discordance 5y ago

You need a Microsoft account to log into Teams, which is integrated into Win11. Teams seems like a big bet for Microsoft, so that's one reason.

HelloNurse 5y ago
Hopefully it will have to be disintegrated for enterprise customers who aren't going to use Microsoft accounts, and presumably for everybody. Antitrust prosecution might also help.

heresie-dabord 5y ago

This is how Chromebooks work. A Google account is needed to sign-in. The motive is not mysterious -- I don't believe it is security, it is pushing free services to collect more data. We all know that selling people's data is deliriously profitable. Of course, people will create less-attributable accounts.

spijdar 5y ago
Ironically, even Chromebooks allow you to use a guest account, while you absolutely must use a Microsoft account on Win11.

MrBuddyCasino 5y ago

I suspect they are testing the waters and see how far they can go with W11. If there is enough outrage about a particular issue, they will simply drop it.

adolfojp 5y ago

In addition to what others have said, Microsoft accounts back up your full disk encryption keys to the cloud. Microsoft ships Bitlocker with every OS and given the TPM requirements one can speculate that it will be turned on by default on every Windows 11 computer. I've seen an increase of tech support posts where people boot up their computer after an update or motherboard change and they're asked for Bitlocker decryption keys and they don't know what those are. Their data is lost forever. Their computers are bricked. The experience of working in IT and modding online tech communities has taught me that computer literacy is very poor even among those who use computers every day. They're just appliances to most people. And this is OK. The problem is that the people who can't figure out what a right click does will never figure out how to back up their full disk encryption keys or even what they are. Forcing a Microsoft account on Home SKUs eliminates this problem.