7 ms·

The audio quality is great and the latency is marvelous but I can't get normies to use it with the tedious setup wizard, poor feedback cancelling from that one

by Pxtl 5y ago

The audio quality is great and the latency is marvelous but I can't get normies to use it with the tedious setup wizard, poor feedback cancelling from that one person who joins with the laptop speakers and mic, and the labyrinthine security model.

unicornporn 5y ago
The feedback cancelling the was the major gripe last time I ran a server. Otherwise very functional software.
- idlewan 5y ago
  A feedback cancelling solution would probably increase latency however, so it would kill the 'low latency' claim if it was on by default. Definitely something needed to be switched on for problematic setups though, since the disadvantages would be outweighed greatly (not having feedback \ echo is a necessary feature).
  - toxik 5y ago
    It shouldn’t necessarily, you can find out how much of the speaker output ends up in the microphone input and compensate. I’m sure the models are more complicated to deal with echoes and distortion but the same approach should basically work: fit the filter offline, apply it online.
- theelous3 5y ago
  The major gripe here should be with the monkey who was using speakers in voice comms. People with a speakers setup sound awful on all software. Some kind of headphones or earbuds cost less than 10 quid. The feedback cancelling wasn't the problem. It's a feature that should scarcely even exist. The only time it's ever really good is when there is some sort of interactive one to many setup. A hands on demo from a lecturer where for some reason they can't wear some wireless buds.
  - asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago
    You can make speakers and mic sound good, but you need solid software support and also a really decent mic. I have a friend who does this with a Blue Yeti mic sometimes. If you put it in cardioid mode, have the speakers not too loud, and position the mic so the speakers are behind it, you can't hear feedback on Discord. But people running mic setups this fancy are definitely the minority.
    - theelous3 5y ago
      Sure, but the vast majority of this legwork is being done by a nice mic having directional capability and massive gain control. This is far from a win for discord and audio comp software. This kind of setup can be made to work on mumble too.
rijoja 5y ago
How does the latency compare to other solutions?
- pindab0ter 5y ago
  In all the years I’ve used it I never noticed any latency. In fact, I didn’t even know that could be a ‘thing’. I haven’t used it in the past year, but if I were to guess I’d say it’s in the tens of milliseconds, definitely not higher.
  - brutal_chaos_ 5y ago
    I used it (on Android the app was called Plumble) over tor, because of tor latency there were lag spikes at times, but in general, it worked quite well.
- allarm 5y ago
  The biggest contributor to latency in any VoIP solution is the underlying network latency. Even though Mumble uses modern low-latency codecs such as Opus, it is difficult to compete with Zoom/Webex/others because Zoom and Webex are not only clients, but also the backbone network. If you want to use Mumble (or any other similar service) in an international firm, you'll need to invest in a low-latency network with proper QoS to deliver an experience similar to Zoom/Webex. I guess it would be cheaper to just use Zoom/Webex in this case - we spent millions each year for our 10-20 Mbps MPLS network at one of my prior jobs (not including the cost of the engineers). However, it might work for a smaller company.
  - patentatt 5y ago
    But everyone generally accesses Zoom/Webex/et al over the public internet, right? Do they implement a CDN-like series of endpoints and have some special sauce low latency network in between nodes? Genuinely curious.
  - rightbyte 5y ago
    With P2P sound there is no need for expensive slow servers serving free tier users. Scalable! But companies have a hard time letting go of control and 'value add'.
PBnFlash 5y ago
Seriously, I ran a community while discord was taking off and I had an infographic for how to install and connect but still spent hours every week walking people through troubleshooting. I tried to make a custom build preloaded with the server even. I understand that connecting to hundreds of servers wasn't a thing in 2015 but it is just so high friction to talk to people about video games.
daptaq 5y ago
I've managed to convince my friends to use Mumble just as the pandemic started. The initial suggestion was to use Discord, but I luckly averted that. I think that the wizard and the defaults in general can be improved, but it is not unmanagable. The only thing that can confuse people is the certificate security system, where a friend of mine complained they couldn't connect, but it was just a "Do you want to accept this certificate" popup that was in the way. That is an issue of general technical illiteracy, that Mumble cannot address.
- ctas 5y ago
  > The initial suggestion was to use Discord, but I luckly averted that. Why is Discord not a good choice in your opinion?
  - toxik 5y ago
    If not for anything else, then because Discord is a service owned by somebody, Mumble isn’t. The free and open web depends on people using the Mumble model.
  - vifon 5y ago
    For starters it's not free (as in freedom).
  - southerntofu 5y ago
    It's a centralized, non-free service that feeds on people's data. That's horrible enough, but i'm guessing i can't even use it with a Tor browser? Mumble works plenty fine on the Tor network.
    - paulcarroty 5y ago
      > can't even use it with a Tor browser? You can, but it will be painful with captcha and email submit links for your new IPs.
      - southerntofu 5y ago
iforgotpassword 5y ago
I tried to switch a community I once hosted to mumble. Previously teamspeak 2 was used which showed its age through high latency and low quality. TS3 was not available yet. There were so many complaints about the client that people voted to switch back to ts2. When ts3 came along they switched to that, but I already passed on the admin job by then so don't know any details about how it went. While it's not open source you can at least self host...
j1elo 5y ago
I have to agree that the security model is horrendous. It's that kind of thing that when you come up with it and program it in your own code, it looks so obvious and easy to use right? Well... no. The way one configures users and permissions in Mumble clearly didn't pass the mom test. I have similar qualms with how users identify. "What? are you telling me that there are these weird files that are called <certificates> and that if I want to move between my PC, laptop, or phone, I need to hunt for this file and copy it into all my devices?" (obviously at this point people started logging in as "Joe2", "Joe3", etc. in my server)
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
Causality1 5y ago
Oh yeah. I love Mumble as long as it's been set up by someone else. Trying to get a server running on your PC with correct security settings and then over a phone walk non-technical people through connecting to it? Nightmare, or at least it was a few years ago when I tried.
tsjq 5y ago
thanks for that heads-up !

by Pxtl 5y ago

unicornporn 5y ago

The feedback cancelling the was the major gripe last time I ran a server. Otherwise very functional software.

idlewan 5y ago
A feedback cancelling solution would probably increase latency however, so it would kill the 'low latency' claim if it was on by default. Definitely something needed to be switched on for problematic setups though, since the disadvantages would be outweighed greatly (not having feedback \ echo is a necessary feature).
- toxik 5y ago
  It shouldn’t necessarily, you can find out how much of the speaker output ends up in the microphone input and compensate. I’m sure the models are more complicated to deal with echoes and distortion but the same approach should basically work: fit the filter offline, apply it online.
theelous3 5y ago
The major gripe here should be with the monkey who was using speakers in voice comms. People with a speakers setup sound awful on all software. Some kind of headphones or earbuds cost less than 10 quid. The feedback cancelling wasn't the problem. It's a feature that should scarcely even exist. The only time it's ever really good is when there is some sort of interactive one to many setup. A hands on demo from a lecturer where for some reason they can't wear some wireless buds.
- asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago
  You can make speakers and mic sound good, but you need solid software support and also a really decent mic. I have a friend who does this with a Blue Yeti mic sometimes. If you put it in cardioid mode, have the speakers not too loud, and position the mic so the speakers are behind it, you can't hear feedback on Discord. But people running mic setups this fancy are definitely the minority.
  - theelous3 5y ago
    Sure, but the vast majority of this legwork is being done by a nice mic having directional capability and massive gain control. This is far from a win for discord and audio comp software. This kind of setup can be made to work on mumble too.

rijoja 5y ago

How does the latency compare to other solutions?

pindab0ter 5y ago
In all the years I’ve used it I never noticed any latency. In fact, I didn’t even know that could be a ‘thing’. I haven’t used it in the past year, but if I were to guess I’d say it’s in the tens of milliseconds, definitely not higher.
- brutal_chaos_ 5y ago
  I used it (on Android the app was called Plumble) over tor, because of tor latency there were lag spikes at times, but in general, it worked quite well.
allarm 5y ago
The biggest contributor to latency in any VoIP solution is the underlying network latency. Even though Mumble uses modern low-latency codecs such as Opus, it is difficult to compete with Zoom/Webex/others because Zoom and Webex are not only clients, but also the backbone network. If you want to use Mumble (or any other similar service) in an international firm, you'll need to invest in a low-latency network with proper QoS to deliver an experience similar to Zoom/Webex. I guess it would be cheaper to just use Zoom/Webex in this case - we spent millions each year for our 10-20 Mbps MPLS network at one of my prior jobs (not including the cost of the engineers). However, it might work for a smaller company.
- patentatt 5y ago
  But everyone generally accesses Zoom/Webex/et al over the public internet, right? Do they implement a CDN-like series of endpoints and have some special sauce low latency network in between nodes? Genuinely curious.
- rightbyte 5y ago
  With P2P sound there is no need for expensive slow servers serving free tier users. Scalable! But companies have a hard time letting go of control and 'value add'.

PBnFlash 5y ago

Seriously, I ran a community while discord was taking off and I had an infographic for how to install and connect but still spent hours every week walking people through troubleshooting. I tried to make a custom build preloaded with the server even. I understand that connecting to hundreds of servers wasn't a thing in 2015 but it is just so high friction to talk to people about video games.

daptaq 5y ago

I've managed to convince my friends to use Mumble just as the pandemic started. The initial suggestion was to use Discord, but I luckly averted that. I think that the wizard and the defaults in general can be improved, but it is not unmanagable. The only thing that can confuse people is the certificate security system, where a friend of mine complained they couldn't connect, but it was just a "Do you want to accept this certificate" popup that was in the way. That is an issue of general technical illiteracy, that Mumble cannot address.

ctas 5y ago
> The initial suggestion was to use Discord, but I luckly averted that. Why is Discord not a good choice in your opinion?
- toxik 5y ago
  If not for anything else, then because Discord is a service owned by somebody, Mumble isn’t. The free and open web depends on people using the Mumble model.
- vifon 5y ago
  For starters it's not free (as in freedom).
- southerntofu 5y ago
  It's a centralized, non-free service that feeds on people's data. That's horrible enough, but i'm guessing i can't even use it with a Tor browser? Mumble works plenty fine on the Tor network.
  - paulcarroty 5y ago
    > can't even use it with a Tor browser? You can, but it will be painful with captcha and email submit links for your new IPs.
    - southerntofu 5y ago

iforgotpassword 5y ago

I tried to switch a community I once hosted to mumble. Previously teamspeak 2 was used which showed its age through high latency and low quality. TS3 was not available yet. There were so many complaints about the client that people voted to switch back to ts2. When ts3 came along they switched to that, but I already passed on the admin job by then so don't know any details about how it went. While it's not open source you can at least self host...

j1elo 5y ago

I have to agree that the security model is horrendous. It's that kind of thing that when you come up with it and program it in your own code, it looks so obvious and easy to use right? Well... no. The way one configures users and permissions in Mumble clearly didn't pass the mom test. I have similar qualms with how users identify. "What? are you telling me that there are these weird files that are called <certificates> and that if I want to move between my PC, laptop, or phone, I need to hunt for this file and copy it into all my devices?" (obviously at this point people started logging in as "Joe2", "Joe3", etc. in my server)

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

Causality1 5y ago

Oh yeah. I love Mumble as long as it's been set up by someone else. Trying to get a server running on your PC with correct security settings and then over a phone walk non-technical people through connecting to it? Nightmare, or at least it was a few years ago when I tried.

tsjq 5y ago

thanks for that heads-up !