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God, if there’s one thing I hate it’s that condescending millennial speak to cover up a serious issue. > Oof, so sorry about this... What??? If your company i

God, if there’s one thing I hate it’s that condescending millennial speak to cover up a serious issue. > Oof, so sorry about this... What??? If your company is broken don’t make it seem like a funny “aw shucks” blunder.

freedomben 5y ago
Interesting, I've written stuff very much like that before for customers that were hitting bugs. I wasn't trying to be "aw shucks" funny. I legitimately feel sorry that my shitty software was breaking on them. That they provided a workaround seemed like a nice thing to me. In fact that whole message seemed pretty good to me. It's probably not entirely that employee's fault but they're still trying to empathize and help. I wonder how many people have felt the same way about me.
- naikrovek 5y ago
  it's disrespectful to respond like that, to me. infantilizing; like I'm incapable of processing a response that is genuine. "uwu we'we sowwy dis isn't wewking anymowe.. pwease don't be angwy wiff us"
  - pm90 5y ago
    Interesting. To me, its a strong signal that the person on the other end is not an offshored, overworked drone but someone who is treated well by the company and cares enough to express empathy.
    - naikrovek 5y ago
      it's not empathetic, it's an attempt to disarm and minimize, and it's insulting.
    - nmaleki 5y ago
      Consider the platform demographic before responding this way. It can be an advantage and a disadvantage.
    - pmontra 5y ago
      There is no person on the other end. There is a program, so definitely a drone, maybe wrote by offshored developers maybe not, definitely overworked or they'll have the time to fix the bug or implement the feature instead of replacing it with a message. A person doing the export manually would be OK as a workaround and instead all they have is that message. That's not OK.
    - gostsamo 5y ago
      Don't try to be funny in your docs. If you want to convey information, make it clean, precise, and to the point. Do not assume and do not distract. Please. P.S. Jokes are not totally forbidden, but they should be more subtle and not so intrusive as "You are asking me a question, but here I'll give you a performance instead of an answer".
      - hluska 5y ago
        Yes, the word ‘oof’ denotes a performance. The etymology dates back to early vaudeville days when Barker Malarkey used it to start the Famous Malarkey Family’s drag show… Except that’s not true. That whole paragraph is a load of malarkey. It’s a word. You don’t know the person involved and you’re making more awful assumptions based upon three letters.
        gostsamo 5y ago
        Now, reverse it backward. Not only I don't know them, but neither they know me. Can you see the issue now? There is such a thing as technical writing style and it is about the relevance of information pieces and the relations between them.
  - bingidingi 5y ago
    gee wiz
    - naikrovek 5y ago
      I laughed. thank you.
  - hn_throwaway_99 5y ago
    How the hell is "Oof, we're so sorry about this." remotely similar to "uwu we'we sowwy dis isn't wewking anymowe.. pwease don't be angwy wiff us" I get it, some forms of communication aren't your bag. But I think it's at least reasonable to focus on a company's intent even if the verbiage isn't what you'd prefer. FWIW I'm quite older than a millennial, but I didn't find anything infantilizing about Notion's response - I'd much prefer a genuine expression of regret, which is what this FAQ appeared to be, than some nonsense corporate-speak.
    - naikrovek 5y ago
      it's insulting because it is attempting to minimize the customer's stake in the problem by appearing to be concerned and empathetic. if they were concerned or empathetic, the issue would not have lasted as long as it has. in short, it's disingenuous and it's an attempt to minimize the customer's concerns.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - hluska 5y ago
        Do you have special crystal ball that lets you peer into another company’s dev processes? If not, who are you to claim people have no empathy? That’s not only a really dark view of humans but it ignores the possibility that they cannot fix it right now. God people, have a touch of respect for our colleagues.
        allarm 5y ago
        Probably Notion should not have put them into this situation in the first place? Maybe they should have been more clear on the issue they’re having so nobody has to make a guess? Shortly explain the details of the issue they’re having and give some timelines? Like mature companies do? It would be good enough for me if I were their customer but oof, who am I to suggest.
        naikrovek 5y ago
- eli 5y ago
  I used to do this too but stopped after getting negative feedback. It can come across as insincere or unserious at a time when the user is already not happy with you.
  - eli 5y ago
    P.s. the person who first brought it to my attention was a UX designer. Good UX people add so much value. This kind of stuff can be really hard to see on your own.
  - TedDoesntTalk 5y ago
    It is unprofessional. Plain and simple.
  - freedomben 5y ago
    Thank you! Written communication with complete strangers is incredibly hard, so it's always good to know how you're being perceived.
- anm89 5y ago
  For what its worth, I second the parent's sentiment. It comes off as really patronizing to me to make responses like this to serious issues. At a minimum, if you take a friendly personal tone in important communications, but there isn't a real person waiting behind it in an easily accessible manner at customer support with the same tone, I get extremely annoyed. There is something infuriating about the cheapness of projecting friendliness in a UI but then directing me to some robot phone line or an auto generated email where it really matters.
  - freedomben 5y ago
    Oh interesting, I assumed this was a response to a support case or something, not the text on their website. In that case I agree with you. In my case I was a real person writing and waiting behind it. I was emailing a response directly to a support case I was handling. Does that change anything in your opinion or would you still feel the same way? (Please don't spare my feelings. I'm really asking as I need to know the hard truth in order to improve)
    - sebmellen 5y ago
      For me that’s a much more acceptable setting to have a more “human” interaction (provided that is actually how you normally interact).
- carlosf 5y ago
  I generally dislike this tone too. If they really felt sorry for this particular customer, they would be actually solving their issues, not answering with automatic messages.
- blululu 5y ago
  When your product is broken informality and conversational prose comes across as sloppy and unprofessional. It sends a bad message and it’s counter productive in this context.
- hluska 5y ago
  I’m obviously in the minority here but I appreciate that kind of tone. Yeah, it sucks that I’ve found a bug but the vast majority of the time, the devs involved hate the bug more than I do. I think the best way to handle support is to be yourself.
  - tw04 5y ago
    Unless you have a personal relationship with the person on the other end (like a customer you have been helping for years and are on a first name basis with), the best way to handle support is to be overly professional. Casual is almost always a recipe for disaster if the person on the other end doesn't know you. It makes it sound like you aren't taking their issue seriously.
    - bostonsre 5y ago
      How does a support rep being friendly and casual lead to a disaster? Or are the disasters you are referring to purely caused by the customer acting entitled and screaming because they got offended that someone was trying to be nice to them? It's more than likely some dude that is just starting their career that has almost no training that is trying to the best of their ability to express empathy, provide a workaround, and make the customer happy. He doesn't control what gets fixed. Why do business interactions need to be devoid of social niceties? It's some software company, not a morgue.
      - tux3 5y ago
        Right. There's definitely a time and place to be casual. As a support person, you're your customer's 911 dispatcher. Please don't make light of their issues. People want to be treated seriously when they're having a problem. You can't tell people they're entitled for disliking how you're treating them in a serious situation, and call it empathy in the next breath.
        bostonsre 5y ago
        Right, but again, it's not 911, it's a software company. The user's company is not gonna go bankrupt, they can still use the application. It is a front line support rep, it is the same as some guy at McDonald's. Yes, I think people are entitled when they feel they have a right to be mean or difficult to some person who is just trying to do their job and is making a plausible attempt to be nice to you. You can't read that workers mind, they said one word that can be plausibly used in either circumstance. That word expresses anguish that their customer is having trouble. That is empathy if it was used sincerely. It is not the south park episode with the cable company workers.
- floralz 5y ago
  It's too lighthearted when you're dealing with a pissed customer and is only going to escalate the situation. If you truly want to show empathy and provide good service, I really hope you rethink the approach you take moving forward. In this case "oof" reads like "sux to be u, bye!" and you have several other people confirming that here. Now you can't say you don't know.
  - freedomben 5y ago
    Yes I have re-thought my approach. I'm not sure how I'll handle it quite yet though. I'm now terrified of trying to be nice and personal to customers, and will likely just copy/paste traditional BS unless I know them. I thought things had being going well, as I've gotten lots of messages from people that appreciate it, and never ones expressing unhappiness about it. However it's not worth it to roll the dice and be myself if people might actually be offended and mad about it. I got this response from someone (who had previously identified as a 75 year old man who struggles with technology) not that long ago: > Thanks for acknowledging the issue and for not being a robot. The personal touch was nice, and your comment about blood pressure brought a smile to my face in a time of deep frustration. In the mean time I'll try the work around from your PDF, but hopefully this is fixed by time renewal comes around.
- neitherboosh 5y ago
  This is also more or less how I talk to other engineers when they find bugs I’ve written :)
- realitysballs 5y ago
  As a millennial myself I appreciate this type of lingo. I think it’s a generational or cultural shift if some sort
  - hluska 5y ago
    I’m in my mid-forties. The tech industry wasn’t at all like this when I was young. Somewhere along the lines, people stopped being nice and having a personality apparently became a personality flaw. I’m taking a break from this fucking site. I can’t believe the extent to which my colleagues are roasting someone over three letters. Bunch of fucking bullies if you ask me.
    - kcartlidge 5y ago
      I could be mistaken, but it feels like your colleagues are not roasting someone but are taking offence at the tone of a message that whilst obviously written by someone, isn't actually from someone but is (or appears to be) an automated response. Personally, if it was a human at the other end of a chat who started off with "Oof" I'd be fine with that as we're having dialogue, but when used as a generic automated message it would feel a little unprofessional. Not enough to complain about, but it would be noticed. Nothing to do with bullies, personalities, or roasting someone. Quite the opposite in fact in that it is totally fine from humans - just not ideal from an automated system.
usui 5y ago
This reminds me of Discord
- dave5104 5y ago
  Discord, at least, has a vastly different audience than a B2B enterprise product. A different tone is more acceptable for something like that, IMO.
  - CitrusFruits 5y ago
    Yeah I love Discord's update messages. But I mostly use it for managing Overwatch play session, chatting while gaming, and sharing dumb or mildly interesting YouTube videos.(Edited for spelling)
- codeafin 5y ago
  I'm glad they got rid of most of them - the description text on startup settings such as "Start minimized" or "Start on bootup" were sentences such as "Have Discord greet you like a good boy", "Have Discord stay in the tray like a good boy" While it's not trying to downplay anything like OP, it was certainly strange and creepy seeing software adopt Reddit English.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
LAC-Tech 5y ago
Yeah I'm a millenial and I can't stand it either. Doggo, pupper, adulting, ninja/rockstar/awesome, oof, yikes, "my dude"... and don't even get me started about dressing like you're still in high school (pro-tip - unless you're are in great shape no one wants to see you in a tight fitting t-shirt). Big reason why I'm now a "programmer in the X industry" as opposed to an "X programmer". I guess I just wasn't a "cultural fit" - yikes.
- DangitBobby 5y ago
  > pro-tip - unless you're are in great shape no one wants to see you in a tight fitting t-shirt There's a decent chance that these people don't seek your approval. Also, how has "pro-tip" not made your list?
  - LAC-Tech 5y ago
    Personal appearance and hygiene isn't something insecure people do to seek approval.
hluska 5y ago
They used ‘oof’, apologized and explained a workaround. This is a rather extreme amount of anger over one word.
lhorie 5y ago
I mean, the sentence itself doesn't seem all that bad IMHO, it's the context that makes the difference. If I'm in a real time conversation actively trying to fix the issue, saying "oof, so sorry about this" seems like a perfectly genuine way of expressing the mutual feeling of frustration. Writing this same sentence with an emoji beside it on a customer support documentation page, however, looks quite unprofessional. In these types of contexts, the general writing etiquette is that one is expected to write using a less casual tone.
bostonsre 5y ago
I take it you haven't worked in support before. It's just a support rep trying to defuse some tension, there is basically nothing they can do except escalate and provide work arounds. Management should be the ones that you get angry at. Getting angry at the front line reps does nothing except to make some poor guy or girl more stressed.
ArchOversight 5y ago
> condescending millennial speak Excuse me? "millennial speak?"
abdusco 5y ago
Reminds me of this tweet recently posted here :) https://twitter.com/cherrikissu/status/972524442600558594 https://twitter.com/cherrikissu/status/972524442600558594

freedomben 5y ago

Interesting, I've written stuff very much like that before for customers that were hitting bugs. I wasn't trying to be "aw shucks" funny. I legitimately feel sorry that my shitty software was breaking on them. That they provided a workaround seemed like a nice thing to me. In fact that whole message seemed pretty good to me. It's probably not entirely that employee's fault but they're still trying to empathize and help. I wonder how many people have felt the same way about me.

naikrovek 5y ago
it's disrespectful to respond like that, to me. infantilizing; like I'm incapable of processing a response that is genuine. "uwu we'we sowwy dis isn't wewking anymowe.. pwease don't be angwy wiff us"
- pm90 5y ago
  Interesting. To me, its a strong signal that the person on the other end is not an offshored, overworked drone but someone who is treated well by the company and cares enough to express empathy.
  - naikrovek 5y ago
    it's not empathetic, it's an attempt to disarm and minimize, and it's insulting.
  - nmaleki 5y ago
    Consider the platform demographic before responding this way. It can be an advantage and a disadvantage.
  - pmontra 5y ago
    There is no person on the other end. There is a program, so definitely a drone, maybe wrote by offshored developers maybe not, definitely overworked or they'll have the time to fix the bug or implement the feature instead of replacing it with a message. A person doing the export manually would be OK as a workaround and instead all they have is that message. That's not OK.
  - gostsamo 5y ago
    Don't try to be funny in your docs. If you want to convey information, make it clean, precise, and to the point. Do not assume and do not distract. Please. P.S. Jokes are not totally forbidden, but they should be more subtle and not so intrusive as "You are asking me a question, but here I'll give you a performance instead of an answer".
    - hluska 5y ago
      Yes, the word ‘oof’ denotes a performance. The etymology dates back to early vaudeville days when Barker Malarkey used it to start the Famous Malarkey Family’s drag show… Except that’s not true. That whole paragraph is a load of malarkey. It’s a word. You don’t know the person involved and you’re making more awful assumptions based upon three letters.
      - gostsamo 5y ago
        Now, reverse it backward. Not only I don't know them, but neither they know me. Can you see the issue now? There is such a thing as technical writing style and it is about the relevance of information pieces and the relations between them.
- bingidingi 5y ago
  gee wiz
  - naikrovek 5y ago
    I laughed. thank you.
- hn_throwaway_99 5y ago
  How the hell is "Oof, we're so sorry about this." remotely similar to "uwu we'we sowwy dis isn't wewking anymowe.. pwease don't be angwy wiff us" I get it, some forms of communication aren't your bag. But I think it's at least reasonable to focus on a company's intent even if the verbiage isn't what you'd prefer. FWIW I'm quite older than a millennial, but I didn't find anything infantilizing about Notion's response - I'd much prefer a genuine expression of regret, which is what this FAQ appeared to be, than some nonsense corporate-speak.
  - naikrovek 5y ago
    it's insulting because it is attempting to minimize the customer's stake in the problem by appearing to be concerned and empathetic. if they were concerned or empathetic, the issue would not have lasted as long as it has. in short, it's disingenuous and it's an attempt to minimize the customer's concerns.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - hluska 5y ago
      Do you have special crystal ball that lets you peer into another company’s dev processes? If not, who are you to claim people have no empathy? That’s not only a really dark view of humans but it ignores the possibility that they cannot fix it right now. God people, have a touch of respect for our colleagues.
      - allarm 5y ago
        Probably Notion should not have put them into this situation in the first place? Maybe they should have been more clear on the issue they’re having so nobody has to make a guess? Shortly explain the details of the issue they’re having and give some timelines? Like mature companies do? It would be good enough for me if I were their customer but oof, who am I to suggest.
      - naikrovek 5y ago
eli 5y ago
I used to do this too but stopped after getting negative feedback. It can come across as insincere or unserious at a time when the user is already not happy with you.
- eli 5y ago
  P.s. the person who first brought it to my attention was a UX designer. Good UX people add so much value. This kind of stuff can be really hard to see on your own.
- TedDoesntTalk 5y ago
  It is unprofessional. Plain and simple.
- freedomben 5y ago
  Thank you! Written communication with complete strangers is incredibly hard, so it's always good to know how you're being perceived.
anm89 5y ago
For what its worth, I second the parent's sentiment. It comes off as really patronizing to me to make responses like this to serious issues. At a minimum, if you take a friendly personal tone in important communications, but there isn't a real person waiting behind it in an easily accessible manner at customer support with the same tone, I get extremely annoyed. There is something infuriating about the cheapness of projecting friendliness in a UI but then directing me to some robot phone line or an auto generated email where it really matters.
- freedomben 5y ago
  Oh interesting, I assumed this was a response to a support case or something, not the text on their website. In that case I agree with you. In my case I was a real person writing and waiting behind it. I was emailing a response directly to a support case I was handling. Does that change anything in your opinion or would you still feel the same way? (Please don't spare my feelings. I'm really asking as I need to know the hard truth in order to improve)
  - sebmellen 5y ago
    For me that’s a much more acceptable setting to have a more “human” interaction (provided that is actually how you normally interact).
carlosf 5y ago
I generally dislike this tone too. If they really felt sorry for this particular customer, they would be actually solving their issues, not answering with automatic messages.
blululu 5y ago
When your product is broken informality and conversational prose comes across as sloppy and unprofessional. It sends a bad message and it’s counter productive in this context.
hluska 5y ago
I’m obviously in the minority here but I appreciate that kind of tone. Yeah, it sucks that I’ve found a bug but the vast majority of the time, the devs involved hate the bug more than I do. I think the best way to handle support is to be yourself.
- tw04 5y ago
  Unless you have a personal relationship with the person on the other end (like a customer you have been helping for years and are on a first name basis with), the best way to handle support is to be overly professional. Casual is almost always a recipe for disaster if the person on the other end doesn't know you. It makes it sound like you aren't taking their issue seriously.
  - bostonsre 5y ago
    How does a support rep being friendly and casual lead to a disaster? Or are the disasters you are referring to purely caused by the customer acting entitled and screaming because they got offended that someone was trying to be nice to them? It's more than likely some dude that is just starting their career that has almost no training that is trying to the best of their ability to express empathy, provide a workaround, and make the customer happy. He doesn't control what gets fixed. Why do business interactions need to be devoid of social niceties? It's some software company, not a morgue.
    - tux3 5y ago
      Right. There's definitely a time and place to be casual. As a support person, you're your customer's 911 dispatcher. Please don't make light of their issues. People want to be treated seriously when they're having a problem. You can't tell people they're entitled for disliking how you're treating them in a serious situation, and call it empathy in the next breath.
      - bostonsre 5y ago
        Right, but again, it's not 911, it's a software company. The user's company is not gonna go bankrupt, they can still use the application. It is a front line support rep, it is the same as some guy at McDonald's. Yes, I think people are entitled when they feel they have a right to be mean or difficult to some person who is just trying to do their job and is making a plausible attempt to be nice to you. You can't read that workers mind, they said one word that can be plausibly used in either circumstance. That word expresses anguish that their customer is having trouble. That is empathy if it was used sincerely. It is not the south park episode with the cable company workers.
floralz 5y ago
It's too lighthearted when you're dealing with a pissed customer and is only going to escalate the situation. If you truly want to show empathy and provide good service, I really hope you rethink the approach you take moving forward. In this case "oof" reads like "sux to be u, bye!" and you have several other people confirming that here. Now you can't say you don't know.
- freedomben 5y ago
  Yes I have re-thought my approach. I'm not sure how I'll handle it quite yet though. I'm now terrified of trying to be nice and personal to customers, and will likely just copy/paste traditional BS unless I know them. I thought things had being going well, as I've gotten lots of messages from people that appreciate it, and never ones expressing unhappiness about it. However it's not worth it to roll the dice and be myself if people might actually be offended and mad about it. I got this response from someone (who had previously identified as a 75 year old man who struggles with technology) not that long ago: > Thanks for acknowledging the issue and for not being a robot. The personal touch was nice, and your comment about blood pressure brought a smile to my face in a time of deep frustration. In the mean time I'll try the work around from your PDF, but hopefully this is fixed by time renewal comes around.
neitherboosh 5y ago
This is also more or less how I talk to other engineers when they find bugs I’ve written :)
realitysballs 5y ago
As a millennial myself I appreciate this type of lingo. I think it’s a generational or cultural shift if some sort
- hluska 5y ago
  I’m in my mid-forties. The tech industry wasn’t at all like this when I was young. Somewhere along the lines, people stopped being nice and having a personality apparently became a personality flaw. I’m taking a break from this fucking site. I can’t believe the extent to which my colleagues are roasting someone over three letters. Bunch of fucking bullies if you ask me.
  - kcartlidge 5y ago
    I could be mistaken, but it feels like your colleagues are not roasting someone but are taking offence at the tone of a message that whilst obviously written by someone, isn't actually from someone but is (or appears to be) an automated response. Personally, if it was a human at the other end of a chat who started off with "Oof" I'd be fine with that as we're having dialogue, but when used as a generic automated message it would feel a little unprofessional. Not enough to complain about, but it would be noticed. Nothing to do with bullies, personalities, or roasting someone. Quite the opposite in fact in that it is totally fine from humans - just not ideal from an automated system.

usui 5y ago

This reminds me of Discord

dave5104 5y ago
Discord, at least, has a vastly different audience than a B2B enterprise product. A different tone is more acceptable for something like that, IMO.
- CitrusFruits 5y ago
  Yeah I love Discord's update messages. But I mostly use it for managing Overwatch play session, chatting while gaming, and sharing dumb or mildly interesting YouTube videos.(Edited for spelling)
codeafin 5y ago
I'm glad they got rid of most of them - the description text on startup settings such as "Start minimized" or "Start on bootup" were sentences such as "Have Discord greet you like a good boy", "Have Discord stay in the tray like a good boy" While it's not trying to downplay anything like OP, it was certainly strange and creepy seeing software adopt Reddit English.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

LAC-Tech 5y ago

Yeah I'm a millenial and I can't stand it either. Doggo, pupper, adulting, ninja/rockstar/awesome, oof, yikes, "my dude"... and don't even get me started about dressing like you're still in high school (pro-tip - unless you're are in great shape no one wants to see you in a tight fitting t-shirt). Big reason why I'm now a "programmer in the X industry" as opposed to an "X programmer". I guess I just wasn't a "cultural fit" - yikes.

DangitBobby 5y ago
> pro-tip - unless you're are in great shape no one wants to see you in a tight fitting t-shirt There's a decent chance that these people don't seek your approval. Also, how has "pro-tip" not made your list?
- LAC-Tech 5y ago
  Personal appearance and hygiene isn't something insecure people do to seek approval.

hluska 5y ago

They used ‘oof’, apologized and explained a workaround. This is a rather extreme amount of anger over one word.

lhorie 5y ago

I mean, the sentence itself doesn't seem all that bad IMHO, it's the context that makes the difference. If I'm in a real time conversation actively trying to fix the issue, saying "oof, so sorry about this" seems like a perfectly genuine way of expressing the mutual feeling of frustration. Writing this same sentence with an emoji beside it on a customer support documentation page, however, looks quite unprofessional. In these types of contexts, the general writing etiquette is that one is expected to write using a less casual tone.

bostonsre 5y ago

I take it you haven't worked in support before. It's just a support rep trying to defuse some tension, there is basically nothing they can do except escalate and provide work arounds. Management should be the ones that you get angry at. Getting angry at the front line reps does nothing except to make some poor guy or girl more stressed.

ArchOversight 5y ago

> condescending millennial speak Excuse me? "millennial speak?"

abdusco 5y ago

Reminds me of this tweet recently posted here :) https://twitter.com/cherrikissu/status/972524442600558594 https://twitter.com/cherrikissu/status/972524442600558594