18 ms·

That is hard to say. In a world full of discrimination against trans folks, who knows how many people who would prefer being trans have failed to be identified

by btilly 5y ago

That is hard to say. In a world full of discrimination against trans folks, who knows how many people who would prefer being trans have failed to be identified? But the topic is much bigger than that. You see, the ideology being pushed says that everyone who has gender dysphoria should be assumed to be trans. But a LOT of teenagers, particularly girls, go through a period of gender dysphoria when they hit puberty. What little research exists on the topic says that most of those girls will grow out of their gender dysphoria, and well-meaning attempts at gender reassignment surgery for them will backfire. However said research is highly controversial exactly because it undermines the politically correct ideology that we should take seriously all claims that physical appearance is less important than chosen gender. And THAT is the real problem. I don't have statistics. But anecdotally I have a 12 year old with gender dysphoria. Many of their friends have the same. I personally know more children claiming to be trans at present than I've known people who were blind or missing a limb over my entire life. A *LOT* of parents are in my boat. It is easy to find opposing ideologies about how we should deal with our teenage children. There is very little research. And people are so focused on yelling at each other that nobody dares DO more research. Because no matter what you find, you're going to get targeted by someone.

dukeofdoom 5y ago
I once read an anti corporate critique of this phenomenon. The argument went something like this: Once female beauty was commoditized, and you could literally purchase an upgrade to parts you were born with. Entire cosmetic and plastic surgery industry benefited from marketing and promoting this model of beauty. The unforeseen consequence was that men started fetishizing these upgrades themselves. As some men hyper focus on female body parts anyway. It was a way to exploit psychological tendencies for profit. I guess the counter remedy would be to promote female beauty as the whole, and not some collection of body parts.
mkr-hn 5y ago
>> "and well-meaning attempts at gender reassignment surgery for them" This isn't actually a thing. Certain factions who would prefer trans people cease to exist push this idea that kids are on this hot new meme of getting their bits flipped before reaching the age of consent, but it is simply not a thing. No top surgery, either. It just isn't a thing. It's a wild fantasy. The only thing kids can go on are puberty blockers. These are well-tested and their effects known and understood through their use for other medical concerns.
- Tomte 5y ago
  We've just had a barely unsuccessful attempt (the social democrats were in favor, but didn't want to end their coalition with the christian democrats) of legislation in Germany which included allowing gender reassignment surgery without parental consent from the age of 14. After psychological counselling, not just on a child's whim, but still. We've had exactly your point in the public discourse: "that's FUD, no surgery for minors is planned", but the wording in the draft law was clear, and proponents were unwilling to get rid of it, even though it would have made the law's passage much, much more likely.
  - mkr-hn 5y ago
    Sometimes people push bills like this to make their opponents look like fools, though maybe that's not as common in the EU. Movements are infiltrated all the time. I don't know the details of that bill (much less the name or backers), so I can't really comment. What I do know is there's tons more bills trying (sometimes successfully) to block consenting adults and older kids with parental permission from even basic stuff like counseling or blockers. That seems way more dangerous than the fraction of a percent of kids who change their mind later being able to go through with a transition they'll regret.
- btilly 5y ago
  Whether or not that is a thing depends on where you are. The most common type of surgery is breast. In the USA, double mastectomies on children are legal, and have been performed on patients as young as 13. As for gender dysphoria itself, according to some surveys the frequency of teenage biological girls diagnosed with the disorder has risen by a factor of 40 in recent years. For sources on both of those facts, as well as more background on this topic, I recommend https://www.webmd.com/children/news/20210427/transition-therapy-for-transgender-teens-drives-divide https://www.webmd.com/children/news/20210427/transition-ther....
  - cedilla 5y ago
    Please note that that's an opinion article, not an academic source. It's borderline misleading to say that mastectomies "happen", and then link it with an unrelated number for diagnoses of gender dysphoria. It's also misleading to represent the growth of a tiny number relatively. A few dozen cases grew to a few hundred. That's completely normal and what happens with any novel diagnosis that was barely accepted even just 10 years ago.
makeworld 5y ago
> But a LOT of teenagers, particularly girls, go through a period of gender dysphoria when they hit puberty. What little research exists on the topic says that most of those girls will grow out of their gender dysphoria, and well-meaning attempts at gender reassignment surgery for them will backfire. Could you link to this research? This is a fraught topic that includes fraudulent studies and claims like this mean little without links.
- handrous 5y ago
  I can only pile on with anecdotal evidence from what my spouse has seen, working in middle schools: yeah, like half of kids who ask to start going by an opposite-gender name, ask to be addressed by different pronouns, start dressing differently, et c., in middle school end up changing their minds before they reach high school, and it is often girls. From what I have heard this does not, however, lead me to believe there's an epidemic of kids receiving medical intervention in support of this, who don't "really mean it". As best I can tell it just means puberty is weird and confusing sometimes, but that usually resolves itself (at least, more or less) after a bit, which should surprise no-one. I doubt many cases that are merely confusion or uncertainty or "experimenting" or whatever, reach the point of even having a conversation with a doctor about it. I could be wrong about that, but nothing I've heard has me worried about The Children. Suicide rates do, but not that.
  - danShumway 5y ago
    I'll add onto this, if people are genuinely worried about invasive surgery, the policing of trans identity is counterproductive to addressing that concern. What would be productive is allowing kids to use different pronouns, allowing them to dress themselves the way they wish and allowing them to seek affirmative care and affirmative communities -- so that they can explore their own gender identity without feeling like they need to commit hard or lean in against opposition that tells them they're not really trans. To the extent that gender identity can be influenced by social norms, allowing kids to identify their own genders is a way of allowing them to safely experiment in that space without invasive surgeries that they might regret. But if everything becomes policing whether or not someone really is trans, if everything involves policing even minor interventions like puberty blockers, then of course kids who suspect they might be trans are going to think that surgery is the only way that they'll be accepted or feel comfortable -- because that's what "gender-critical" groups are telling them, they're telling them that having a certain body is a barrier to their identity. For some trans people, exploring gender is a process. Allowing people to feel safe and accepted during that process decreases the risk of rash decisions. And accepting them regardless of whether or not they pass for their gender decreases social pressure that might exist telling them they need to medically transition to be valid. It's not surprising that mocking gender fluidity, over-emphasizing physical attributes in gender identity, and restricting low-impact interventions like puberty blockers might make uncertain kids feel like they need to hard-commit to medically transitioning. It's not surprising that trans kids and trans-questioning kids would be alienated by that environment, and that they might be less willing to openly air their doubts and fears or seek external advice.
jolux 5y ago
> What little research exists on the topic says that most of those girls will grow out of their gender dysphoria, and well-meaning attempts at gender reassignment surgery for them will backfire. This is frequently claimed but is untrue, or at the very least highly uncertain. The studies most often referenced have serious methodological errors, including inconsistent definitions of dysphoria (owing partially to problems with the Gender Identity Disorder diagnostic criteria in the DSM-IV that have since been fixed with the DSM-5) and desistance (in some cases counting anyone who didn't follow up with the clinic conducting the research as having desisted) https://www.gdaworkinggroup.com/desistance-articles-and-critique https://www.gdaworkinggroup.com/desistance-articles-and-crit... Julia Serano has also written extensively on this topic with much depth and nuance, at least in my opinion: https://juliaserano.medium.com/detransition-desistance-and-disinformation-a-guide-for-understanding-transgender-children-993b7342946e https://juliaserano.medium.com/detransition-desistance-and-d...
- btilly 5y ago
  I made a claim about ideology. You made a claim about medical professionals. That is not particularly relevant to what I claimed. I stand by my claim. The online echo chambers that children, including my own, seek out very much push the ideology that any claim to be male, female, non-binary or whatever must be accepted at face value. And that the person who is making the claim should have the right to any treatment that they wish, up to and including surgery. As for criticism of the research that exists, I agree that it isn't very good. But then again, most research in the social sciences isn't very good. See the Replication Crisis. Or as we used to say, news at 11.
  - jolux 5y ago
    > You made a claim about medical professionals. That is not particularly relevant to what I claimed. I removed that part as I agree it wasn't relevant. > As for criticism of the research that exists, I agree that it isn't very good. Unfortunately it's so poor that I judge it as being insufficient to use to form an opinion on this issue. It's much worse than the replication crisis at large, it's not clear that their methods prove what they claim in the first place if you look at their work. The pages I linked go into greater depth about why this is a difficult question to study and what the existing research gets wrong. > The online echo chambers that children, including my own, seek out very much push the ideology that any claim to be male, female, non-binary or whatever must be accepted at face value. That's as may be, but I suggest you read the WPATH standards of care if you're interested in what the medical community in general thinks about the medical treatment of trans people, including kids. It's a little out of date (2012), but if you can't find a knowledgeable medical professional nearby it's pretty much the gold standard, and is very well supported by evidence: https://www.wpath.org/publications/soc https://www.wpath.org/publications/soc In particular, adolescents seem much less likely to desist than younger children.
heterodoxxed 5y ago
| gender reassignment surgery SRS/GRS is not recommended for pubescent children by anyone. At that age only hormone blockers are on the table, definitely not permanent surgery. EDIT Posting a reference backing up my claim since I'm getting downvoted: https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/mar/05/viral-image/no-young-children-cannot-take-hormones-or-change-t https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/mar/05/viral-imag... | Professional organizations such as the Endocrine Society recommend against puberty blockers for children who have not reached puberty, and recommend that patients be at least 16 years old before beginning hormone treatments for feminization or masculinization of the body. The last step in transitioning to another gender, gender reassignment surgery, is only available to those 18 and older in the United States.
- alisonkisk 5y ago
  Does anyone have evidence to challenge this claim of fact? Otherswise it's useful information.
  - john-radio 5y ago
    No claim containing the string "is not recommended by anyone" will hold up, since eventually it's easy enough to find someone (probably a troll) who does recommend X practice. But the post that you're replying to, in general, holds up. "Gender reassignment surgery is typically only available to those 18 and older in the United States." https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/mar/05/viral-image/no-young-children-cannot-take-hormones-or-change-t/ https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/mar/05/viral-imag...
    - heterodoxxed 5y ago
      That seems unnecessarily pedantic, since obviously it should be assumed to mean "not recommended by anyone who matters", but I've upvoted you for providing the source. I was editing my comment with that exact link when you posted.
    - btilly 5y ago
      Define "gender reassignment surgery", please. Are we talking about a top operation, or a bottom one? Do mastectomies count as gender reassignment, or only if genitals are involved? Because if you include top surgery, then https://wng.org/roundups/state-mandates-payment-for-childrens-breast-removal-1617220421 https://wng.org/roundups/state-mandates-payment-for-children... says that where I live in California it is legal, and insurance must pay for it.
brundolf 5y ago
This is a wonderfully nuanced thread on the subject from a trans woman in her thirties: https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1385411504669790208.html https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1385411504669790208.html Edit: I just noticed the original poster already converted this into a longform post, so the "reader app" version isn't really necessary https://liminalwarmth.com/the-hard-thing-about-hard-things-medical-gender-transition/ https://liminalwarmth.com/the-hard-thing-about-hard-things-m...
- btilly 5y ago
  Thank you for posting it. Some definite food for thought.
- zozbot234 5y ago
  A 77-fold tweet storm, that has got to be some kind of world record. It's surprising how much of it is just plain old common sense that would never be seen as sensitive or "political" in a halfway sane environment, stated in what comes off as a painfully diplomatic way, going to extreme lengths to not ruffle any feathers.
  - Wowfunhappy 5y ago
    I really didn't read it that way. It was an earnest, heartfelt piece largely discussing the author's own experience.
- fao_ 5y ago
  It's also important noting, semi-related to your post, that nobody is pushing for trans-surgeries for teenagers -- they are pushing for puberty blockers. What this means is that puberty is medically halted until the teenager is a legal age, when they will be able to decide which puberty they want. This avoids a lot of dysphoria-provoking secondary sexual characteristics from progressing, and also avoids accidentally "transing" a cisgender teenager. Nobody hesitates to give puberty blockers to cisgender teenagers, for other medical reasons. I knew a young girl who had to have puberty blockers because she had a precocious puberty and it was literally destroying her young body -- she was not old enough physically or mentally to be able to deal with it. However, for whatever reason, there is a huge backlash against giving it to transgender teenagers, despite it representing the best and ultimate choice in self-determination -- "Take these for a few years and then when you are 18 you can decide which puberty you want to go through". It leaves room for the individual to decide. If the person decides against it before then, they can stop and puberty immediately resumes as normal. When the suicide rates are as high as they are for transgender people, and there is the option of halting the things causing the suicidal feelings, the dysphoria, all of the physical and emotional and societal pain. Halting an onslaught of pain that is utterly soul destroying, and just giving them more time to make a choice and more of an informed decision, how can there be any empathically-cogent argument against that?
kaitai 5y ago
Where is this ideology that "gender dysphoria = trans" pushed? This is really bizarre -- could you give me some references?
- recursive 5y ago
  I wouldn't think of it as an ideology. I mean, maybe it is, but it doesn't seem at all bizarre. I'm not really aware of the details, but I'd be hard-pressed to name a difference between the two. I don't (think I) have a position on the issue.
  - kaitai 5y ago
    But trans means switching from one side of the binary to the other, while dysphoria means "unease or dissatisfaction" which is not at all the same. One can easily be uneasy or dissatisfied with one's perceived gender identity yet not want to switch to the other side of the binary. What about agender people, or people who just don't like gender at all? I certainly remember as a teen being unhappy with the constraints gender put on me in social situations but that certainly doesn't mean I'm trans.
    - 9wzYQbTYsAIc 5y ago
      There is a semantic shift taking place in the scientific community regarding the use of the prefix trans when referring to sex (physical anatomy) reassignment as a treatment in gender affirmative care. Unfortunately, politics keeps interfering with the word choices of scientists.
- 9wzYQbTYsAIc 5y ago
  There are competing ideologies between the United States and the Rest of the World, essentially culminating in two approaches of diagnosing psychological and psychiatric health concerns. One comes from the American Psychological Association, called the DSM and another comes from the World Health Organization called the ICD. https://www.apa.org/monitor/2009/10/icd-dsm https://www.apa.org/monitor/2009/10/icd-dsm
crooked-v 5y ago
> What little research exists on the topic says that most of those girls will grow out of their gender dysphoria, and well-meaning attempts at gender reassignment surgery for them will backfire. Except... people don't perform gender reassignment surgery on children just going through puberty.
justicezyx 5y ago
> That is hard to say. Why? There are simply more disabled people than trans people and they are getting far less attention, right? How is that hard to say?
- munk-a 5y ago
  I think society has made good efforts to be more accessible to people with disabilities. I'm pretty sure all of the traffic lights in America beep when the walk signal is on - that exists to assist blind individuals even in communities without blind individuals - in addition there are a lot more buildings with wheelchair ramps than there are with unisex bathrooms.
  - justicezyx 5y ago
    >unisex bathrooms There are closed lavatory literally in any restroom, in terms of accessibility, that's universally accessible to trans people. In this sense, trans people are treated infinitely better than disabled people. I still cannot understand the idea that transpeople are not considered with some kind of mental or bodily disease... I mean depression is considered a mental disease. Because one just cannot feel happy. So if someone feels not the same as the body reflects, why not that considered a disease and treated accordingly?
idontgiveash1t 5y ago
From my experience, a lot of girls don't want to become women because it's a shit hand to be dealt, not because they want to piss in urinals and wear condoms. As a young man, I heard a lot of young women say how they wish they could cut their breasts off, be men, rape the would be rapists, etc. Body dismorphia and weird men cause a lot of problems for them and if anyone were to have serious conversation about, it would be labeled as some hate. Trans women in my experience want have their sexual fantasies realized. They mostly want to eat (female) pussy, not "front holes".
NikolaNovak 5y ago
I hate to wade into a controversial topic where I'm under-educated and have limited info/opinions; but for what little it is worth to add to anecdata - the current cohort of 12-15 year old girls in my friend/family circle are virtually all in some level of gender dysphoria. Most of their parents are supportive and loving but... panicked, I guess - completely uncertain what to do, how best to help them, and without robust support themselves. I think there'll be people with strong opinions giving advice here as there are in real life - but those are in some ways people whose advice I'd personally be least likely to take - on average, more interested in propagating some ideological rightness (on any and all sides), rather than looking at each and every child, circumstance, and taking a good hard look what's best of the person. Because that is a damn difficult question, whereas loud opinions are all too easy.
- mc32 5y ago
  I think this raises a few questions. Has anything changed in the last 10 or 20 years? Why does this affect as many youths as it does today? No doubt there was unhappiness with one's identity in the past, but I doubt it was at the level it is today. And, in addition, I doubt it's at the same elevated level in all countries. In other words, we can ask 30 or 40 year olds, did you as a kid feel unhappy with your identity as much as today's youth feel about their identities but couldn't wouldn't express it? Is it kids leading the change, is it kids following societal trends, is it other, what is it?
  - btilly 5y ago
    Has anything changed in the last 10 or 20 years? Yes. We as a society have become dramatically more accepting of gay and trans people. Gay marriage is a reasonable proxy. Back in 2008, and even a relatively liberal state like California passed a proposition to ban gay marriage. Today popular opinion supports gay marriage. Not just popular opinion in California, or nationwide, but even popular opinion nationwide AMONG REPUBLICANS. This is why the parents that I know today with children identifying as trans are figuring out how to best support and help their children. The parents of trans people that I knew a few years back wound up becoming homeless as teenagers because of the reactions of their parents. A typical such reaction having been, "You are murdering my son!"
listless 5y ago
I can only add with my own anecdote. My son dated a girl when they were both 14. This girl had gender dysphoria. She was suffering from a lot of other externalities, but she swore she was a boy. Fast forward 3 years and she is now mature, optimistic, and very much a girl. Culture seems to be going through a convulsion of sorts and it is taking an enormous toll on our young girls. They do seem to grow out of it, but the phenomenon is real.
raxxorrax 5y ago
> But anecdotally I have a 12 year old with gender dysphoria. I think this isn't solved by education, it is caused by it and consequently the peer pressure among pupils. The reason is probably not that trans-people are discriminated against. That is very unlikely.

by btilly 5y ago

dukeofdoom 5y ago

I once read an anti corporate critique of this phenomenon. The argument went something like this: Once female beauty was commoditized, and you could literally purchase an upgrade to parts you were born with. Entire cosmetic and plastic surgery industry benefited from marketing and promoting this model of beauty. The unforeseen consequence was that men started fetishizing these upgrades themselves. As some men hyper focus on female body parts anyway. It was a way to exploit psychological tendencies for profit. I guess the counter remedy would be to promote female beauty as the whole, and not some collection of body parts.

mkr-hn 5y ago

>> "and well-meaning attempts at gender reassignment surgery for them" This isn't actually a thing. Certain factions who would prefer trans people cease to exist push this idea that kids are on this hot new meme of getting their bits flipped before reaching the age of consent, but it is simply not a thing. No top surgery, either. It just isn't a thing. It's a wild fantasy. The only thing kids can go on are puberty blockers. These are well-tested and their effects known and understood through their use for other medical concerns.

Tomte 5y ago
We've just had a barely unsuccessful attempt (the social democrats were in favor, but didn't want to end their coalition with the christian democrats) of legislation in Germany which included allowing gender reassignment surgery without parental consent from the age of 14. After psychological counselling, not just on a child's whim, but still. We've had exactly your point in the public discourse: "that's FUD, no surgery for minors is planned", but the wording in the draft law was clear, and proponents were unwilling to get rid of it, even though it would have made the law's passage much, much more likely.
- mkr-hn 5y ago
  Sometimes people push bills like this to make their opponents look like fools, though maybe that's not as common in the EU. Movements are infiltrated all the time. I don't know the details of that bill (much less the name or backers), so I can't really comment. What I do know is there's tons more bills trying (sometimes successfully) to block consenting adults and older kids with parental permission from even basic stuff like counseling or blockers. That seems way more dangerous than the fraction of a percent of kids who change their mind later being able to go through with a transition they'll regret.
btilly 5y ago
Whether or not that is a thing depends on where you are. The most common type of surgery is breast. In the USA, double mastectomies on children are legal, and have been performed on patients as young as 13. As for gender dysphoria itself, according to some surveys the frequency of teenage biological girls diagnosed with the disorder has risen by a factor of 40 in recent years. For sources on both of those facts, as well as more background on this topic, I recommend https://www.webmd.com/children/news/20210427/transition-therapy-for-transgender-teens-drives-divide https://www.webmd.com/children/news/20210427/transition-ther....
- cedilla 5y ago
  Please note that that's an opinion article, not an academic source. It's borderline misleading to say that mastectomies "happen", and then link it with an unrelated number for diagnoses of gender dysphoria. It's also misleading to represent the growth of a tiny number relatively. A few dozen cases grew to a few hundred. That's completely normal and what happens with any novel diagnosis that was barely accepted even just 10 years ago.

makeworld 5y ago

> But a LOT of teenagers, particularly girls, go through a period of gender dysphoria when they hit puberty. What little research exists on the topic says that most of those girls will grow out of their gender dysphoria, and well-meaning attempts at gender reassignment surgery for them will backfire. Could you link to this research? This is a fraught topic that includes fraudulent studies and claims like this mean little without links.

handrous 5y ago
I can only pile on with anecdotal evidence from what my spouse has seen, working in middle schools: yeah, like half of kids who ask to start going by an opposite-gender name, ask to be addressed by different pronouns, start dressing differently, et c., in middle school end up changing their minds before they reach high school, and it is often girls. From what I have heard this does not, however, lead me to believe there's an epidemic of kids receiving medical intervention in support of this, who don't "really mean it". As best I can tell it just means puberty is weird and confusing sometimes, but that usually resolves itself (at least, more or less) after a bit, which should surprise no-one. I doubt many cases that are merely confusion or uncertainty or "experimenting" or whatever, reach the point of even having a conversation with a doctor about it. I could be wrong about that, but nothing I've heard has me worried about The Children. Suicide rates do, but not that.
- danShumway 5y ago
  I'll add onto this, if people are genuinely worried about invasive surgery, the policing of trans identity is counterproductive to addressing that concern. What would be productive is allowing kids to use different pronouns, allowing them to dress themselves the way they wish and allowing them to seek affirmative care and affirmative communities -- so that they can explore their own gender identity without feeling like they need to commit hard or lean in against opposition that tells them they're not really trans. To the extent that gender identity can be influenced by social norms, allowing kids to identify their own genders is a way of allowing them to safely experiment in that space without invasive surgeries that they might regret. But if everything becomes policing whether or not someone really is trans, if everything involves policing even minor interventions like puberty blockers, then of course kids who suspect they might be trans are going to think that surgery is the only way that they'll be accepted or feel comfortable -- because that's what "gender-critical" groups are telling them, they're telling them that having a certain body is a barrier to their identity. For some trans people, exploring gender is a process. Allowing people to feel safe and accepted during that process decreases the risk of rash decisions. And accepting them regardless of whether or not they pass for their gender decreases social pressure that might exist telling them they need to medically transition to be valid. It's not surprising that mocking gender fluidity, over-emphasizing physical attributes in gender identity, and restricting low-impact interventions like puberty blockers might make uncertain kids feel like they need to hard-commit to medically transitioning. It's not surprising that trans kids and trans-questioning kids would be alienated by that environment, and that they might be less willing to openly air their doubts and fears or seek external advice.

jolux 5y ago

> What little research exists on the topic says that most of those girls will grow out of their gender dysphoria, and well-meaning attempts at gender reassignment surgery for them will backfire. This is frequently claimed but is untrue, or at the very least highly uncertain. The studies most often referenced have serious methodological errors, including inconsistent definitions of dysphoria (owing partially to problems with the Gender Identity Disorder diagnostic criteria in the DSM-IV that have since been fixed with the DSM-5) and desistance (in some cases counting anyone who didn't follow up with the clinic conducting the research as having desisted) https://www.gdaworkinggroup.com/desistance-articles-and-critique https://www.gdaworkinggroup.com/desistance-articles-and-crit... Julia Serano has also written extensively on this topic with much depth and nuance, at least in my opinion: https://juliaserano.medium.com/detransition-desistance-and-disinformation-a-guide-for-understanding-transgender-children-993b7342946e https://juliaserano.medium.com/detransition-desistance-and-d...

btilly 5y ago
I made a claim about ideology. You made a claim about medical professionals. That is not particularly relevant to what I claimed. I stand by my claim. The online echo chambers that children, including my own, seek out very much push the ideology that any claim to be male, female, non-binary or whatever must be accepted at face value. And that the person who is making the claim should have the right to any treatment that they wish, up to and including surgery. As for criticism of the research that exists, I agree that it isn't very good. But then again, most research in the social sciences isn't very good. See the Replication Crisis. Or as we used to say, news at 11.
- jolux 5y ago
  > You made a claim about medical professionals. That is not particularly relevant to what I claimed. I removed that part as I agree it wasn't relevant. > As for criticism of the research that exists, I agree that it isn't very good. Unfortunately it's so poor that I judge it as being insufficient to use to form an opinion on this issue. It's much worse than the replication crisis at large, it's not clear that their methods prove what they claim in the first place if you look at their work. The pages I linked go into greater depth about why this is a difficult question to study and what the existing research gets wrong. > The online echo chambers that children, including my own, seek out very much push the ideology that any claim to be male, female, non-binary or whatever must be accepted at face value. That's as may be, but I suggest you read the WPATH standards of care if you're interested in what the medical community in general thinks about the medical treatment of trans people, including kids. It's a little out of date (2012), but if you can't find a knowledgeable medical professional nearby it's pretty much the gold standard, and is very well supported by evidence: https://www.wpath.org/publications/soc https://www.wpath.org/publications/soc In particular, adolescents seem much less likely to desist than younger children.

heterodoxxed 5y ago

| gender reassignment surgery SRS/GRS is not recommended for pubescent children by anyone. At that age only hormone blockers are on the table, definitely not permanent surgery. EDIT Posting a reference backing up my claim since I'm getting downvoted: https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/mar/05/viral-image/no-young-children-cannot-take-hormones-or-change-t https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/mar/05/viral-imag... | Professional organizations such as the Endocrine Society recommend against puberty blockers for children who have not reached puberty, and recommend that patients be at least 16 years old before beginning hormone treatments for feminization or masculinization of the body. The last step in transitioning to another gender, gender reassignment surgery, is only available to those 18 and older in the United States.

alisonkisk 5y ago
Does anyone have evidence to challenge this claim of fact? Otherswise it's useful information.
- john-radio 5y ago
  No claim containing the string "is not recommended by anyone" will hold up, since eventually it's easy enough to find someone (probably a troll) who does recommend X practice. But the post that you're replying to, in general, holds up. "Gender reassignment surgery is typically only available to those 18 and older in the United States." https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/mar/05/viral-image/no-young-children-cannot-take-hormones-or-change-t/ https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/mar/05/viral-imag...
  - heterodoxxed 5y ago
    That seems unnecessarily pedantic, since obviously it should be assumed to mean "not recommended by anyone who matters", but I've upvoted you for providing the source. I was editing my comment with that exact link when you posted.
  - btilly 5y ago
    Define "gender reassignment surgery", please. Are we talking about a top operation, or a bottom one? Do mastectomies count as gender reassignment, or only if genitals are involved? Because if you include top surgery, then https://wng.org/roundups/state-mandates-payment-for-childrens-breast-removal-1617220421 https://wng.org/roundups/state-mandates-payment-for-children... says that where I live in California it is legal, and insurance must pay for it.

brundolf 5y ago

This is a wonderfully nuanced thread on the subject from a trans woman in her thirties: https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1385411504669790208.html https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1385411504669790208.html Edit: I just noticed the original poster already converted this into a longform post, so the "reader app" version isn't really necessary https://liminalwarmth.com/the-hard-thing-about-hard-things-medical-gender-transition/ https://liminalwarmth.com/the-hard-thing-about-hard-things-m...

btilly 5y ago
Thank you for posting it. Some definite food for thought.
zozbot234 5y ago
A 77-fold tweet storm, that has got to be some kind of world record. It's surprising how much of it is just plain old common sense that would never be seen as sensitive or "political" in a halfway sane environment, stated in what comes off as a painfully diplomatic way, going to extreme lengths to not ruffle any feathers.
- Wowfunhappy 5y ago
  I really didn't read it that way. It was an earnest, heartfelt piece largely discussing the author's own experience.
fao_ 5y ago
It's also important noting, semi-related to your post, that nobody is pushing for trans-surgeries for teenagers -- they are pushing for puberty blockers. What this means is that puberty is medically halted until the teenager is a legal age, when they will be able to decide which puberty they want. This avoids a lot of dysphoria-provoking secondary sexual characteristics from progressing, and also avoids accidentally "transing" a cisgender teenager. Nobody hesitates to give puberty blockers to cisgender teenagers, for other medical reasons. I knew a young girl who had to have puberty blockers because she had a precocious puberty and it was literally destroying her young body -- she was not old enough physically or mentally to be able to deal with it. However, for whatever reason, there is a huge backlash against giving it to transgender teenagers, despite it representing the best and ultimate choice in self-determination -- "Take these for a few years and then when you are 18 you can decide which puberty you want to go through". It leaves room for the individual to decide. If the person decides against it before then, they can stop and puberty immediately resumes as normal. When the suicide rates are as high as they are for transgender people, and there is the option of halting the things causing the suicidal feelings, the dysphoria, all of the physical and emotional and societal pain. Halting an onslaught of pain that is utterly soul destroying, and just giving them more time to make a choice and more of an informed decision, how can there be any empathically-cogent argument against that?

kaitai 5y ago

Where is this ideology that "gender dysphoria = trans" pushed? This is really bizarre -- could you give me some references?

recursive 5y ago
I wouldn't think of it as an ideology. I mean, maybe it is, but it doesn't seem at all bizarre. I'm not really aware of the details, but I'd be hard-pressed to name a difference between the two. I don't (think I) have a position on the issue.
- kaitai 5y ago
  But trans means switching from one side of the binary to the other, while dysphoria means "unease or dissatisfaction" which is not at all the same. One can easily be uneasy or dissatisfied with one's perceived gender identity yet not want to switch to the other side of the binary. What about agender people, or people who just don't like gender at all? I certainly remember as a teen being unhappy with the constraints gender put on me in social situations but that certainly doesn't mean I'm trans.
  - 9wzYQbTYsAIc 5y ago
    There is a semantic shift taking place in the scientific community regarding the use of the prefix trans when referring to sex (physical anatomy) reassignment as a treatment in gender affirmative care. Unfortunately, politics keeps interfering with the word choices of scientists.
9wzYQbTYsAIc 5y ago
There are competing ideologies between the United States and the Rest of the World, essentially culminating in two approaches of diagnosing psychological and psychiatric health concerns. One comes from the American Psychological Association, called the DSM and another comes from the World Health Organization called the ICD. https://www.apa.org/monitor/2009/10/icd-dsm https://www.apa.org/monitor/2009/10/icd-dsm

crooked-v 5y ago

justicezyx 5y ago

> That is hard to say. Why? There are simply more disabled people than trans people and they are getting far less attention, right? How is that hard to say?

munk-a 5y ago
I think society has made good efforts to be more accessible to people with disabilities. I'm pretty sure all of the traffic lights in America beep when the walk signal is on - that exists to assist blind individuals even in communities without blind individuals - in addition there are a lot more buildings with wheelchair ramps than there are with unisex bathrooms.
- justicezyx 5y ago
  >unisex bathrooms There are closed lavatory literally in any restroom, in terms of accessibility, that's universally accessible to trans people. In this sense, trans people are treated infinitely better than disabled people. I still cannot understand the idea that transpeople are not considered with some kind of mental or bodily disease... I mean depression is considered a mental disease. Because one just cannot feel happy. So if someone feels not the same as the body reflects, why not that considered a disease and treated accordingly?

idontgiveash1t 5y ago

From my experience, a lot of girls don't want to become women because it's a shit hand to be dealt, not because they want to piss in urinals and wear condoms. As a young man, I heard a lot of young women say how they wish they could cut their breasts off, be men, rape the would be rapists, etc. Body dismorphia and weird men cause a lot of problems for them and if anyone were to have serious conversation about, it would be labeled as some hate. Trans women in my experience want have their sexual fantasies realized. They mostly want to eat (female) pussy, not "front holes".

NikolaNovak 5y ago

I hate to wade into a controversial topic where I'm under-educated and have limited info/opinions; but for what little it is worth to add to anecdata - the current cohort of 12-15 year old girls in my friend/family circle are virtually all in some level of gender dysphoria. Most of their parents are supportive and loving but... panicked, I guess - completely uncertain what to do, how best to help them, and without robust support themselves. I think there'll be people with strong opinions giving advice here as there are in real life - but those are in some ways people whose advice I'd personally be least likely to take - on average, more interested in propagating some ideological rightness (on any and all sides), rather than looking at each and every child, circumstance, and taking a good hard look what's best of the person. Because that is a damn difficult question, whereas loud opinions are all too easy.

mc32 5y ago
I think this raises a few questions. Has anything changed in the last 10 or 20 years? Why does this affect as many youths as it does today? No doubt there was unhappiness with one's identity in the past, but I doubt it was at the level it is today. And, in addition, I doubt it's at the same elevated level in all countries. In other words, we can ask 30 or 40 year olds, did you as a kid feel unhappy with your identity as much as today's youth feel about their identities but couldn't wouldn't express it? Is it kids leading the change, is it kids following societal trends, is it other, what is it?
- btilly 5y ago
  Has anything changed in the last 10 or 20 years? Yes. We as a society have become dramatically more accepting of gay and trans people. Gay marriage is a reasonable proxy. Back in 2008, and even a relatively liberal state like California passed a proposition to ban gay marriage. Today popular opinion supports gay marriage. Not just popular opinion in California, or nationwide, but even popular opinion nationwide AMONG REPUBLICANS. This is why the parents that I know today with children identifying as trans are figuring out how to best support and help their children. The parents of trans people that I knew a few years back wound up becoming homeless as teenagers because of the reactions of their parents. A typical such reaction having been, "You are murdering my son!"

listless 5y ago

I can only add with my own anecdote. My son dated a girl when they were both 14. This girl had gender dysphoria. She was suffering from a lot of other externalities, but she swore she was a boy. Fast forward 3 years and she is now mature, optimistic, and very much a girl. Culture seems to be going through a convulsion of sorts and it is taking an enormous toll on our young girls. They do seem to grow out of it, but the phenomenon is real.

raxxorrax 5y ago

> But anecdotally I have a 12 year old with gender dysphoria. I think this isn't solved by education, it is caused by it and consequently the peer pressure among pupils. The reason is probably not that trans-people are discriminated against. That is very unlikely.