4 ms·

Some information to put into perspective the articles which are now regularly published about the revival of sleeper trains. First, if you look at Europe as a

Some information to put into perspective the articles which are now regularly published about the revival of sleeper trains. First, if you look at Europe as a whole, you will see that sleeper trains were never really dead. There are plenty of them in Germany and Eastern Europe. Often they go from large cities to holiday destinations and therefore are mainly used by people travelling for leisure. The novelty of these new lines (be it this company or the transeuropean effort to connect european capitals with sleeper trains) is that they mostly travel business travellers, people who would usually have taken a place. As plane journeys are often the largest item in a company carbon account, they are betting that some will push their employees towards the train. It might not be easy however. Track capacity at night is often severly limited by maintenance work in France for example and these trains will have to compete with rail freight transport at a time when Europe wants to massively develop rail freight.

justincormack 5y ago
A lot were being discontinued, and the number had declined substantially in the last few years.
CaptainZapp 5y ago
I also think the network, as proposed is a problem. It only seems useful if you're Paris based, since this appears to be the center node of the network. edit: This at least appears to be the case for the French startup mentioned and the map displayed at the very top of the article.
- ginko 5y ago
  Well, that's France for you. The ÖBB Nightjet network is a lot less centralized: https://www.nightjet.com/dam/jcr:6a8041cb-0131-4ad3-84fd-25154548e5dd/nightjet-streckennetz-deutsch.pdf https://www.nightjet.com/dam/jcr:6a8041cb-0131-4ad3-84fd-251...
  - emteycz 5y ago
    ÖBB trains (even the ones reaching Czechia under Czech Railways brand) are super-good experience.
    - izacus 5y ago
      Yep, can confirm, using the Nightjet was surprisingly comfortable. The biggest issue is that they tend to be booked up weeks in advance so getting a slot in private compartment is pretty hard.
      - cromka 5y ago
        Which is a good problem to be had right now, from a citizen’s perspective. Proves there’s a market for these trains and we can only expect more of them coming.
  - yohannparis 5y ago
    This startup is not from the SNCF (national railroad), it's not comparable in terms of service with another national railroad. I'd love to see the project including ÖBB, SBB, & SNCF!
- Scoundreller 5y ago
  > It only seems useful if you're Paris based, since this appears to be the center node of the network That’s France’s rail network in a nutshell. It’s great, if your trip starts or ends in Paris. If you’re not, you might still go through Paris and driving could be faster than a high-speed train. The other issue with domestic sleeper networks in France, other than sounding like a terrorist, is that high speed trains usually take 3-4h anyway. I think the only takers for an overnight equivalent would be tourists that can save a night of stay somewhere. And that’s if you’re not staying with family or friends. And the trains are almost all electric, so it’s harder to make an argument for “slower, therefore less carbon burn”.
calpaterson 5y ago
> First, if you look at Europe as a whole, you will see that sleeper trains were never really dead. In the UK, experiences vary. The new Caledonian Sleeper (London-Highlands) is apparently a pretty rubbish experience. However, I took the Night Riviera (London - Cornwall) a few years ago and found it a pretty good experience even though I very nearly missed my stop in Truro. The problem for a business traveller is that you would need a shower. The other problem facing the Caledonian sleeper is that London-Glasgow is only something like 4 hours and the day trains are very good. The same is not so true for getting out to Cornwall.
- VBprogrammer 5y ago
  I've haven't taken the Caledonian sleeper since the revamp but did take it a few times before that. In my experience it was a near perfect form of travel. Arrive at a train station long after most people had gone home, board the train and fall asleep, wake up at the platform very early the next day. You lose practically no 'useful' time.* The one thing which stopped us making use of it more frequently was the cost. It was generally more expensive than flying, much more expensive than driving and even more so now that we have a child. * In fairness, it's pretty loud and not massively comfortable so if you are a light sleeper you might not get the full magic carpet effect.
  - Freak_NL 5y ago
    Part of the expense can be discounted against sleeping accommodations you would need otherwise though, and for many of us another part of the price is simply investing in something that is desirable for a variety of reasons (ecology being a prominent one).
    - VBprogrammer 5y ago
      For us specifically that didn't work out because the main reason we were travelling was usually to see friends or family who we'd be staying with anyway. I appreciate that's not the general case. While I'm happy to spend a little more for the sake of the environment we're talking something like 3-5x more expensive.
thomaslkjeldsen 5y ago
> Track capacity at night is often severly limited by maintenance work Makes one wonder what it would do to the economics of train transportation if maintenance work was required to be carried out during daytime and passenger transportation was optimised for comfortable sleeper trains.
- toomanybeersies 5y ago
  That would probably cause a whole lot of problems for commuter rail.
- bluGill 5y ago
  Kill it. Even assuming we are limiting ourselves to long distance trips (that is commuting to work is still allowed to use tracks during the day), and hand wave away some tricky where to draw the line issues. Trains work best when the track is used. That means trains need to leave often to keep the track busy. Leave at 9pm, and arrive at 7am sounds great, but you don't get anyone leaving at 2am, which means there isn't enough users to pay for all the infrastructure needed. Day trains work because some people leave at 8am, some noon, some 6pm... You need enough riders to fill to 70% capacity 3 trains per hour for 13 hours a day just to break even on all the costs of running a train for a reasonable price. (the numbers are approximate and depend strongly on local details). The more often you can run nearly full trains the better. Your night trains can't do this.
dkdbejwi383 5y ago
I have taken the DB sleeper from Amsterdam to Prague. It was great. Not the best night of sleep ever, but it's great to go to have a full day in one city, have a nightcap and sleep on the train, drink a coffee with a light breakfast and be in a new city at 08:00 the next morning. No having to get trains/busses/taxis to airports, waiting around for hours, a short flight where you can't sleep at all for the light and noise, etc.
- Ichthypresbyter 5y ago
  DB got rid of its sleepers (which were the last ones to serve the Netherlands) in 2016. The Austrians bought most of the rolling stock, and kept some of the routes that served Austria going. They've now started expanding again, and a route from Amsterdam to Vienna and Innsbruck has just opened.
  - IkmoIkmo 5y ago
    What ticketing sites do you guys use? Whenever I want to try (night) trains around Europe I run into a myriad of national websites with poor information on non-national trips, a lack of decent information on what to expect, annoying pricing/planning/booking UIs, and generally lack of information about how it 'works', as in some require you to have an App, a card, to print out tickets etc. I often just give up. In that sense, flying somehow feels like a much more standardised and straightforward experience, despite a ton of different ticketing websites, airlines and airports which all have their own apps and gates and conditions etc, too.
    - Tijdreiziger 5y ago
      If you need information on train routes and where to buy tickets, the #1 place to get it is https://www.seat61.com/ https://www.seat61.com/. It's an incredibly complete site run by a train enthusiast from the UK.
    - johnwalkr 5y ago
      The DB app is horrible. It can only use your local time, at least when I used it. Was not fun to plan a trip from Japan. DB has the worst ticket machine I’ve ever seen too, I think in Berlin, although I might not remember the details perfectly and am probably exaggerating a bit. Buy one ticket, and it asks you for money, the bill slot opens, you put money in, the bill slot closes, the ticket prints, and then the change return door opens. After you take your change, the change return door closes. If you buy 4 tickets: it asks you for money, the bill slot opens, you put money in, the bill slot closes, the first ticket prints, and then the change return door opens, you take you change and then it closes. Then, the bill slot opens and closes, the second ticket prints, then the change return door opens and closes (repeat 2 more times). I know just the type of “meets the requirements” engineers that made this.
alkonaut 5y ago
Competing with freight at night isn’t necessarily so bad, if the trip benefits from being slow. For example the sleeper I usually take is around 7-8h if done as fast as possible, but that’s not the most convenient duration since you either leave very late or arrive too early. A few hours extra to make it 10 or 12 hours is perfect.
baud147258 5y ago
> As plane journeys are often the largest item in a company carbon account, they are betting that some will push their employees towards the train I think just betting on companies going for the better option carbon-wise won't be enough, it also needs price parity (or better) and more convenience than taking the plane

justincormack 5y ago

A lot were being discontinued, and the number had declined substantially in the last few years.

CaptainZapp 5y ago

I also think the network, as proposed is a problem. It only seems useful if you're Paris based, since this appears to be the center node of the network. edit: This at least appears to be the case for the French startup mentioned and the map displayed at the very top of the article.

ginko 5y ago
Well, that's France for you. The ÖBB Nightjet network is a lot less centralized: https://www.nightjet.com/dam/jcr:6a8041cb-0131-4ad3-84fd-25154548e5dd/nightjet-streckennetz-deutsch.pdf https://www.nightjet.com/dam/jcr:6a8041cb-0131-4ad3-84fd-251...
- emteycz 5y ago
  ÖBB trains (even the ones reaching Czechia under Czech Railways brand) are super-good experience.
  - izacus 5y ago
    Yep, can confirm, using the Nightjet was surprisingly comfortable. The biggest issue is that they tend to be booked up weeks in advance so getting a slot in private compartment is pretty hard.
    - cromka 5y ago
      Which is a good problem to be had right now, from a citizen’s perspective. Proves there’s a market for these trains and we can only expect more of them coming.
- yohannparis 5y ago
  This startup is not from the SNCF (national railroad), it's not comparable in terms of service with another national railroad. I'd love to see the project including ÖBB, SBB, & SNCF!
Scoundreller 5y ago
> It only seems useful if you're Paris based, since this appears to be the center node of the network That’s France’s rail network in a nutshell. It’s great, if your trip starts or ends in Paris. If you’re not, you might still go through Paris and driving could be faster than a high-speed train. The other issue with domestic sleeper networks in France, other than sounding like a terrorist, is that high speed trains usually take 3-4h anyway. I think the only takers for an overnight equivalent would be tourists that can save a night of stay somewhere. And that’s if you’re not staying with family or friends. And the trains are almost all electric, so it’s harder to make an argument for “slower, therefore less carbon burn”.

calpaterson 5y ago

> First, if you look at Europe as a whole, you will see that sleeper trains were never really dead. In the UK, experiences vary. The new Caledonian Sleeper (London-Highlands) is apparently a pretty rubbish experience. However, I took the Night Riviera (London - Cornwall) a few years ago and found it a pretty good experience even though I very nearly missed my stop in Truro. The problem for a business traveller is that you would need a shower. The other problem facing the Caledonian sleeper is that London-Glasgow is only something like 4 hours and the day trains are very good. The same is not so true for getting out to Cornwall.

VBprogrammer 5y ago
I've haven't taken the Caledonian sleeper since the revamp but did take it a few times before that. In my experience it was a near perfect form of travel. Arrive at a train station long after most people had gone home, board the train and fall asleep, wake up at the platform very early the next day. You lose practically no 'useful' time.* The one thing which stopped us making use of it more frequently was the cost. It was generally more expensive than flying, much more expensive than driving and even more so now that we have a child. * In fairness, it's pretty loud and not massively comfortable so if you are a light sleeper you might not get the full magic carpet effect.
- Freak_NL 5y ago
  Part of the expense can be discounted against sleeping accommodations you would need otherwise though, and for many of us another part of the price is simply investing in something that is desirable for a variety of reasons (ecology being a prominent one).
  - VBprogrammer 5y ago
    For us specifically that didn't work out because the main reason we were travelling was usually to see friends or family who we'd be staying with anyway. I appreciate that's not the general case. While I'm happy to spend a little more for the sake of the environment we're talking something like 3-5x more expensive.

thomaslkjeldsen 5y ago

> Track capacity at night is often severly limited by maintenance work Makes one wonder what it would do to the economics of train transportation if maintenance work was required to be carried out during daytime and passenger transportation was optimised for comfortable sleeper trains.

toomanybeersies 5y ago
That would probably cause a whole lot of problems for commuter rail.
bluGill 5y ago
Kill it. Even assuming we are limiting ourselves to long distance trips (that is commuting to work is still allowed to use tracks during the day), and hand wave away some tricky where to draw the line issues. Trains work best when the track is used. That means trains need to leave often to keep the track busy. Leave at 9pm, and arrive at 7am sounds great, but you don't get anyone leaving at 2am, which means there isn't enough users to pay for all the infrastructure needed. Day trains work because some people leave at 8am, some noon, some 6pm... You need enough riders to fill to 70% capacity 3 trains per hour for 13 hours a day just to break even on all the costs of running a train for a reasonable price. (the numbers are approximate and depend strongly on local details). The more often you can run nearly full trains the better. Your night trains can't do this.

dkdbejwi383 5y ago

I have taken the DB sleeper from Amsterdam to Prague. It was great. Not the best night of sleep ever, but it's great to go to have a full day in one city, have a nightcap and sleep on the train, drink a coffee with a light breakfast and be in a new city at 08:00 the next morning. No having to get trains/busses/taxis to airports, waiting around for hours, a short flight where you can't sleep at all for the light and noise, etc.

Ichthypresbyter 5y ago
DB got rid of its sleepers (which were the last ones to serve the Netherlands) in 2016. The Austrians bought most of the rolling stock, and kept some of the routes that served Austria going. They've now started expanding again, and a route from Amsterdam to Vienna and Innsbruck has just opened.
- IkmoIkmo 5y ago
  What ticketing sites do you guys use? Whenever I want to try (night) trains around Europe I run into a myriad of national websites with poor information on non-national trips, a lack of decent information on what to expect, annoying pricing/planning/booking UIs, and generally lack of information about how it 'works', as in some require you to have an App, a card, to print out tickets etc. I often just give up. In that sense, flying somehow feels like a much more standardised and straightforward experience, despite a ton of different ticketing websites, airlines and airports which all have their own apps and gates and conditions etc, too.
  - Tijdreiziger 5y ago
    If you need information on train routes and where to buy tickets, the #1 place to get it is https://www.seat61.com/ https://www.seat61.com/. It's an incredibly complete site run by a train enthusiast from the UK.
  - johnwalkr 5y ago
    The DB app is horrible. It can only use your local time, at least when I used it. Was not fun to plan a trip from Japan. DB has the worst ticket machine I’ve ever seen too, I think in Berlin, although I might not remember the details perfectly and am probably exaggerating a bit. Buy one ticket, and it asks you for money, the bill slot opens, you put money in, the bill slot closes, the ticket prints, and then the change return door opens. After you take your change, the change return door closes. If you buy 4 tickets: it asks you for money, the bill slot opens, you put money in, the bill slot closes, the first ticket prints, and then the change return door opens, you take you change and then it closes. Then, the bill slot opens and closes, the second ticket prints, then the change return door opens and closes (repeat 2 more times). I know just the type of “meets the requirements” engineers that made this.

alkonaut 5y ago

Competing with freight at night isn’t necessarily so bad, if the trip benefits from being slow. For example the sleeper I usually take is around 7-8h if done as fast as possible, but that’s not the most convenient duration since you either leave very late or arrive too early. A few hours extra to make it 10 or 12 hours is perfect.

baud147258 5y ago

> As plane journeys are often the largest item in a company carbon account, they are betting that some will push their employees towards the train I think just betting on companies going for the better option carbon-wise won't be enough, it also needs price parity (or better) and more convenience than taking the plane