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I fully agree with your comment overall, but as someone who lives in Japan I'd like to point out that specifically "people who fill in the holes in roads" is a

I fully agree with your comment overall, but as someone who lives in Japan I'd like to point out that specifically "people who fill in the holes in roads" is a running joke in Japan since small street constructions always seem way over-staffed. It's amazing because they do finish a lot faster than in western countries, but you can definitely remove 20% of the people in street-level construction and would see little difference. An example: they hire 2 people on every sidewalk just to tell people to continue walking the way they are walking and make sure they don't fall into a pit while looking at their phones[1]. From what I've learned, this specific job is normally filled by people who have already retired but don't have enough to live, so they are paid peanuts (I believe they might also be paid a bit extra by gvmt to go back to work, but I'm not sure I understood this point properly). They have started to be replaced by "robots" though [2]. Edit: in general everything in Japan seems overstaffed compared to the western counterparts, not just road construction. I believe this is how they can maintain very low levels of unemployment here, but I don't yet know how the incentives work to make it possible. [1] The guys with the blue shirt, notice one on each side https://c8.alamy.com/comp/HBJ2K1/japanese-people-in-construction-site-working-and-repair-surface-of-HBJ2K1.jpg https://c8.alamy.com/comp/HBJ2K1/japanese-people-in-construc... [2] https://japangasm.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/rwintro-swing04_900.jpg https://japangasm.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/rwintro-swing0...

bobthepanda 5y ago
Japan on paper is the wealthiest (non-microstate) Asian country GDP per capita, but if you compare by PPP it's actually not great because of meh economic productivity/import tariffs, and slips behind South Korea and Taiwan.
kqr 5y ago
Sometimes I think what passes for appropriately staffed in the West is actually understaffed. What's called optimal staffing in the West is just at capacity, which is a nice way of saying "with no spare capacity." Of course, with Japan being the land of just-in-time, one could argue that spare capacity is bad -- but that's an oversimplification. Necessary spare capacity is good. What's bad is not being able to address the reasons the spare capacity is needed. Maybe when it comes to humans doing road work there's no way around the need for spare capacity?
- franciscop 5y ago
  It's what the market demands in the end of the day and why I don't understand Japan too much (yet). If a company hires 4 people just for road signaling, and another 0, I'd hire the second one since it's going to be cheaper. That's why I believe these market forces push to at-capacity, because if someone has spare capacity or a lot of profit another company is going to come in at a lower margin and win the market. Yes this leads to breaking at some situations that happen once every 20 years, but otherwise you die from competition so that's what we are stuck with.
  - adamlett 5y ago
    Isn’t it oversimplifying it to suggest that all “the market” rewards is low prices? Doesn’t the market also sometimes reward quality and timeliness?
    - rjzzleep 5y ago
      I think you're right, I went through a E40m construction project once and the leaders kept saying how they have to chose the lowest bidder. But that was actually a convenient lie they did to avoid having to do due diligence on the bidders. Mid and long term cost actually turned out a lot higher than if they had chosen the better slightly more expensive bids.
      - yodelshady 5y ago
        "get three quotes and take the middle" is a common heuristic in my locale - for any work you're going to be living in, under or on, at any rate.
      - mianas 5y ago
        I've seen this turn out the other way on a road contract near my house. (rural Ireland) Some Italian construction company underbid, and slightly later went bankrupt after finishing some of the work. They just about missed the contract milestones for payment too, and got nothing out of it. Then, the contract went to someone else who bid, with expected costs adjusted. Think there was an 8-ish month delay.
nsonha 5y ago
wow is that 8 people for painting a line?
- blarg1 5y ago
  1 to paint the line and 7 to make sure it's straight
  - ratww 5y ago
    So it's like a code review, but for lines on the road.
asah 5y ago
Um, actually construction appears to lay people as "overstaffed" due to safety, breaks, inspections and synchronization of people, tools and materials. https://qr.ae/pGFloE https://qr.ae/pGFloE
- franciscop 5y ago
  Yes, I understand some people that seem to not be doing much are actually safety people, or taking a normal break, but in the case of Japan it's quite extreme and that's why I pointed it out.
MarkSweep 5y ago
Some notably low-staffed places in Japan are Yoshinoya and Sukiyaki (beef bowel fast food, often 24/7). It seems there usually just one person working there at a time.
- innocenat 5y ago
  You probably went during off time? It's usually more than 1 during busy time. (And it's Sukiya, not Sukiyaki) And it's also probably not for wanting just 1 staff -- it's probably because no one want to work at those place.
  - hderms 5y ago
    I went once at about 3-4PM and also came away feeling like it was a bit understaffed. One worker and about 8 people in there eating. I didn't have to wait a crazy amount of time so maybe it's fine though, gyudon doesn't take a long time to prepare if some ingredients are prepped
- franciscop 5y ago
  By low-staffed, do you mean that you had to wait long time to get your order? These places are highly automated so they don't need as many staff, sure there's few people working there but usually more than enough for serving the orders that come through in just few minutes.
  - fomine3 5y ago
    Yes it's very optimized so single person can handle operation, but I prefer to have at least two for backup and safety.
- wst_ 5y ago
  Not sure about Yoshinoya, but I've heard that Sukiya is considered a "black" company. Means they run over people, understaff and, in general, it's not a place you want to work in unless you're desperate. That was few years ago, though, so not sure how is it, now.
ratww 5y ago
> It's amazing because they do finish a lot faster than in western countries, but you can definitely remove 20% of the people in street-level construction and would see little difference. Maybe the 20% extra people is the reason they always finish a lot faster.
- toyg 5y ago
  Or the reason everything in Japan is so clean and actually efficient and reliable. You won't see the casual litter and degraded infrastructure that is commonplace in US and Western Europe - everything is kept in tip-top shape, because why not? When you have the wealth and workforce to spare, in practical terms it's just better to allocate capacity for this sort of tasks in quantities that might look sub-optimal on a spreadsheet.
  - ratww 5y ago
    Yep, exactly. I completely agree with you.
- franciscop 5y ago
  So there's normally 2x-3x people working in construction compared to western countries. I'm saying 20% of those workhours are not needed, but that'd still leave quite a lot more workers there compared to western countries and why they finish early. An example is that they normally work around the clock (24/7, but fairly quietly at night).
mnky9800n 5y ago
They even have signs that look like people that day watch out for the sidewalk that stand next to the guy that says watch out for the sidewalk. But everyone who wants to work should have a job.
Iv 5y ago
Living in Japan also, the rumor I heard was that these additional workers actually work as a shadow force for political parties during elections. To circumvent strict donation laws, the idea is that these people will be "lended" as administrative staff and door-knockers during elections, in exchange of juicy contracts. And let's be real, that linked in [2] does not point to a job that requires automation, a blinking panel is enough. Often I have seen the sad spectacle of one mannequin handling a signal on the end and a human on the other end. It is totally a bullshit job.
mdavis6890 5y ago
I don't know if Japanese construction projects are overstaffed or not, but if they are, do you think that would change? My guess is that they would continue the same staffing arrangement and get less construction work done.
wst_ 5y ago
You forget that there's an etos of work in Japan. Besides of getting some small amount of money, those people get a chance for being useful. That is a mental effect as well and should not be overlooked. Not to mention it reduces unemployment. If you look around there's plenty of such a "pointless" jobs. The same with people steering the traffic at the parking lot entrances/exits at any bigger entertainment or shopping center. Sometimes with almost no pedestrians around and yet those people are standing there in sun or rain alike. Or people who's only job is to smile and open doors for you, less common, but happens as well. To be honest, though, as a "consumer" of such jobs (pedestrian in this case) I do feel they took an extra mile to make it as safe and comfortable for me as possible. And I do feel better about it. It may look pointless at the surface, but I think those jobs are extremely important for society at large.

bobthepanda 5y ago

Japan on paper is the wealthiest (non-microstate) Asian country GDP per capita, but if you compare by PPP it's actually not great because of meh economic productivity/import tariffs, and slips behind South Korea and Taiwan.

kqr 5y ago

Sometimes I think what passes for appropriately staffed in the West is actually understaffed. What's called optimal staffing in the West is just at capacity, which is a nice way of saying "with no spare capacity." Of course, with Japan being the land of just-in-time, one could argue that spare capacity is bad -- but that's an oversimplification. Necessary spare capacity is good. What's bad is not being able to address the reasons the spare capacity is needed. Maybe when it comes to humans doing road work there's no way around the need for spare capacity?

franciscop 5y ago
It's what the market demands in the end of the day and why I don't understand Japan too much (yet). If a company hires 4 people just for road signaling, and another 0, I'd hire the second one since it's going to be cheaper. That's why I believe these market forces push to at-capacity, because if someone has spare capacity or a lot of profit another company is going to come in at a lower margin and win the market. Yes this leads to breaking at some situations that happen once every 20 years, but otherwise you die from competition so that's what we are stuck with.
- adamlett 5y ago
  Isn’t it oversimplifying it to suggest that all “the market” rewards is low prices? Doesn’t the market also sometimes reward quality and timeliness?
  - rjzzleep 5y ago
    I think you're right, I went through a E40m construction project once and the leaders kept saying how they have to chose the lowest bidder. But that was actually a convenient lie they did to avoid having to do due diligence on the bidders. Mid and long term cost actually turned out a lot higher than if they had chosen the better slightly more expensive bids.
    - yodelshady 5y ago
      "get three quotes and take the middle" is a common heuristic in my locale - for any work you're going to be living in, under or on, at any rate.
    - mianas 5y ago
      I've seen this turn out the other way on a road contract near my house. (rural Ireland) Some Italian construction company underbid, and slightly later went bankrupt after finishing some of the work. They just about missed the contract milestones for payment too, and got nothing out of it. Then, the contract went to someone else who bid, with expected costs adjusted. Think there was an 8-ish month delay.

nsonha 5y ago

wow is that 8 people for painting a line?

blarg1 5y ago
1 to paint the line and 7 to make sure it's straight
- ratww 5y ago
  So it's like a code review, but for lines on the road.

asah 5y ago

Um, actually construction appears to lay people as "overstaffed" due to safety, breaks, inspections and synchronization of people, tools and materials. https://qr.ae/pGFloE https://qr.ae/pGFloE

franciscop 5y ago
Yes, I understand some people that seem to not be doing much are actually safety people, or taking a normal break, but in the case of Japan it's quite extreme and that's why I pointed it out.

MarkSweep 5y ago

Some notably low-staffed places in Japan are Yoshinoya and Sukiyaki (beef bowel fast food, often 24/7). It seems there usually just one person working there at a time.

innocenat 5y ago
You probably went during off time? It's usually more than 1 during busy time. (And it's Sukiya, not Sukiyaki) And it's also probably not for wanting just 1 staff -- it's probably because no one want to work at those place.
- hderms 5y ago
  I went once at about 3-4PM and also came away feeling like it was a bit understaffed. One worker and about 8 people in there eating. I didn't have to wait a crazy amount of time so maybe it's fine though, gyudon doesn't take a long time to prepare if some ingredients are prepped
franciscop 5y ago
By low-staffed, do you mean that you had to wait long time to get your order? These places are highly automated so they don't need as many staff, sure there's few people working there but usually more than enough for serving the orders that come through in just few minutes.
- fomine3 5y ago
  Yes it's very optimized so single person can handle operation, but I prefer to have at least two for backup and safety.
wst_ 5y ago
Not sure about Yoshinoya, but I've heard that Sukiya is considered a "black" company. Means they run over people, understaff and, in general, it's not a place you want to work in unless you're desperate. That was few years ago, though, so not sure how is it, now.

ratww 5y ago

> It's amazing because they do finish a lot faster than in western countries, but you can definitely remove 20% of the people in street-level construction and would see little difference. Maybe the 20% extra people is the reason they always finish a lot faster.

toyg 5y ago
Or the reason everything in Japan is so clean and actually efficient and reliable. You won't see the casual litter and degraded infrastructure that is commonplace in US and Western Europe - everything is kept in tip-top shape, because why not? When you have the wealth and workforce to spare, in practical terms it's just better to allocate capacity for this sort of tasks in quantities that might look sub-optimal on a spreadsheet.
- ratww 5y ago
  Yep, exactly. I completely agree with you.
franciscop 5y ago
So there's normally 2x-3x people working in construction compared to western countries. I'm saying 20% of those workhours are not needed, but that'd still leave quite a lot more workers there compared to western countries and why they finish early. An example is that they normally work around the clock (24/7, but fairly quietly at night).

mnky9800n 5y ago

They even have signs that look like people that day watch out for the sidewalk that stand next to the guy that says watch out for the sidewalk. But everyone who wants to work should have a job.

Iv 5y ago

Living in Japan also, the rumor I heard was that these additional workers actually work as a shadow force for political parties during elections. To circumvent strict donation laws, the idea is that these people will be "lended" as administrative staff and door-knockers during elections, in exchange of juicy contracts. And let's be real, that linked in [2] does not point to a job that requires automation, a blinking panel is enough. Often I have seen the sad spectacle of one mannequin handling a signal on the end and a human on the other end. It is totally a bullshit job.

mdavis6890 5y ago

I don't know if Japanese construction projects are overstaffed or not, but if they are, do you think that would change? My guess is that they would continue the same staffing arrangement and get less construction work done.

wst_ 5y ago

You forget that there's an etos of work in Japan. Besides of getting some small amount of money, those people get a chance for being useful. That is a mental effect as well and should not be overlooked. Not to mention it reduces unemployment. If you look around there's plenty of such a "pointless" jobs. The same with people steering the traffic at the parking lot entrances/exits at any bigger entertainment or shopping center. Sometimes with almost no pedestrians around and yet those people are standing there in sun or rain alike. Or people who's only job is to smile and open doors for you, less common, but happens as well. To be honest, though, as a "consumer" of such jobs (pedestrian in this case) I do feel they took an extra mile to make it as safe and comfortable for me as possible. And I do feel better about it. It may look pointless at the surface, but I think those jobs are extremely important for society at large.