5 ms·

I once did some not very serious google-based statistics to look at the number of immigrants vs the number of restaurants of that type. I used Italy, where I li

by davidw 5y ago

I once did some not very serious google-based statistics to look at the number of immigrants vs the number of restaurants of that type. I used Italy, where I lived at the time, because it was easy to get the immigration stats and because most immigration is pretty recent. There are, for instance, a lot of Filipinos living and working in Italy, but not many restaurants. There are a ton of "Japanese" restaurants, but not very many immigrants.

contriban 5y ago
You used the perfect example. Filipino cuisine is not popular anywhere in the world even if Filipinos emigrate in large numbers. Is it possible that more Chinese people emigrated and opened shops whereas most Filipinos worked as employees or nurses? Could that have been the reason why? Maybe Filipino food doesn’t look as good as, say, Thai? Vietnamese? Japanese especially? I’m looking for answers.
- bombcar 5y ago
  Popular versions of food may not be more than “inspired” by the original localities dishes. I also wonder if it has to do with segregation when arriving - if the Chinese on the railroad had to cook their own food it would be different than if they just ate whatever everyone else was eating.
- vnorilo 5y ago
  I believe Thailand has methodically promoted its cuisine abroad as a way to garner cultural soft power. I, for one, do not mind in the least! Welcome our new larb moo overlords.
  - gregsadetsky 5y ago
    Interesting article on the topic of Thailand's culinary diplomacy: https://www.vice.com/en/article/paxadz/the-surprising-reason-that-there-are-so-many-thai-restaurants-in-america https://www.vice.com/en/article/paxadz/the-surprising-reason...
  - Wistar 5y ago
    A bit of a tangent but… well… interesting. "Thailand, to combat bad Thai food around the world, creates robot ‘e-delicious’ tasting machine" https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/191047-thailand-to-combat-bad-thai-food-around-the-world-creates-robot-e-delicious-tasting-machine https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/191047-thailand-to-comba...
  - distantaidenn 5y ago
    And the world is better for it. Thai cuisine is the most fresh and flavorful I've ever experienced. Can't wait to visit again.
  - badestrand 5y ago
    I rather think the simple truth is that some cuisines appeal to many more people than others. While surely every country and culture offers some tasty dishes I think there is a reason we see so many Italian, Thai and Japanese restaurants everywhere and so few German, Phillipine or Peruvian restaurants. I am German myself and I am sure you can find more Italian than native restaurants in Germany, simply because it makes for a better dining experience. Not everything needs to be socially constructed.
    - bhaak 5y ago
      > I am German myself and I am sure you can find more Italian than native restaurants in Germany, simply because it makes for a better dining experience. Not everything needs to be socially constructed. I doubt that. Every eating place where you can get a bratwurst or a currywurst would count as a German restaurant as everyplace where you can get only pizza would count as Italian restaurant. If we look at higher priced restaurants it gets fuzzy anyway as those restaurants in Europe are more influenced by French cuisine than the native ones and this wouldn't be any different in Germany or Italy as the influence of French culture was pretty dominant in the past centuries.
- bpicolo 5y ago
  Can find plenty in NYC (and it's all fantastic). Many foods get more widespread as consequence of being hip for a time. Hasn't had its hip movement yet?
- Clewza313 5y ago
  Having visited the Phils quite a few times, the food is notably spice-deficient compared to nearly all its neighbors: a typical Filipino dish is flavored with exactly one thing, usually garlic. Also, some of the ingredients used to make up for this blandness are unpalatable/weird to Westerners. Exhibit A is kare-kare, which is peanut butter and oxtail stew served with fermented shrimp paste (bagoong alamang), where the tiny shrimp are still visible, eyeballs and all. There are "good even if you didn't grow up with it" dishes like lechon (suckling pig), pork & chicken adobo and halo-halo, and some of the modern/upscale/fusiony places in Manila are amazing, but it would still be hard to have a Filipino place that's authentic and appealing to non-Filipino palates at the same time.
  - contriban 5y ago
    I disagree, Vietnamese and Japanese dishes aren’t known for their spices and are bland when compared to Thai food. I’d say some Filipino dishes if anything are too aggressive since many of them are sour due to vinegar or tamarind. Also every mentioned country commonly used fermented fish/shrimp paste. The smelly “pla ra” is part of som tam but restaurants in the west probably don’t offer it at all. Phở is famous but bulalo (oxtail bone marrow soup) is not, yet the two are comparable. The latter has a large piece of oxtail that would make it a delicacy on its own, and it’s good-looking too. With a set of base dishes that taste good and look good for westerners, I’m not sure the taste is what’s keeping Filipino cuisine a secret. Ethiopian food is “common” in Los Angeles, but I wouldn’t say it’s particularly varied or spiced.
    - hdhjebebeb 5y ago
      Ethiopian food is very spiced in my experience - mitmita and berebere are the two distinctive spice mixes that come to mind. The local place makes doro wat so spicy that my partner can't even eat it!
Bayart 5y ago
Here in France we have a lot of "Chinese" or more generically "Asian" restaurants. They're all Vietnamese ! I guess Vietnam wasn't a particularly exotic or dreamy location after having been a colony for a century, and then the two Indochina wars. Similarly, I've never heard of an Algerian restaurant. But Moroccan or Lebanese ones are quite common (and the relationships of France with Morocco and Lebanon much better and less contentious).
- denton-scratch 5y ago
  There's an Algerian pattisier within walking distance of my home. It's very good! A match for any French pattisier.
Pamar 5y ago
Italian expat (who still visits Italy regularly and has some interest in Japanese culture) here: you are right in writing Japanese in quotes: most Japanese restaurants in Italy are actually owned/operated by Chinese families. The average Italian does not distinguish the two languages and therefore anyone of Eastern ethnicity can usually "pretend" to be Chinese, Korean,Japanese or Vietnamese without fear of being "unmasked" by general public.
- bpodgursky 5y ago
  Dunno why people care so much about the ancestry of the owner. I've had good sushi from Korean owners, and good Pho from Chinese restauranteurs. Cooking takes experience and effort, not some weird genetic memory.
  - distantaidenn 5y ago
    Well, sushi is also a big thing in Korea -- Japanese influence and all that. And if we wanna just explore say, raw seafood dishes, I'd argue Korean cuisine has a lot more variety. If you ever get the chance, do visit Busan for some amazing seafood. Source: currently live in Tokyo, have also lived in Korea (Seoul) for years, and I eat everything.
  - beaconstudios 5y ago
    My guess would be that, growing up in the culture you would be expected to have a better knowledge of what constitutes good food for your culture,moreso than having learned how to cook, say, Italian food from a cookbook.
  - Pamar 5y ago
    Cooking also requires specific ingredients, and someone who knows what mozzarella is and how should taste would probably have less problems to source it (or find an "acceptable" local product) when preparing Pizza in Alaska or Tokyo or Oslo... Genetics has little to do with that, though: lots of ITALIAN pizzerias IN ITALY now hire Egyptian citizens to prepare and (most importantly) cook their pizzas. And nobody has any problem with the way the pizza comes out. My point is: if you are in the place where a specific dish was "invented", you have access to appropriate ingredients and lots of know-how from the locals. If you grew up in a culture were the dish is available only through ethnic restaurants, proper ingredients might be difficult to find, and most importantly, your own taste (to judge if the food is "correct" or if one of the ingredients is "good enough") is somehow distorted because you are too far from the originals.

by davidw 5y ago

contriban 5y ago

You used the perfect example. Filipino cuisine is not popular anywhere in the world even if Filipinos emigrate in large numbers. Is it possible that more Chinese people emigrated and opened shops whereas most Filipinos worked as employees or nurses? Could that have been the reason why? Maybe Filipino food doesn’t look as good as, say, Thai? Vietnamese? Japanese especially? I’m looking for answers.

bombcar 5y ago
Popular versions of food may not be more than “inspired” by the original localities dishes. I also wonder if it has to do with segregation when arriving - if the Chinese on the railroad had to cook their own food it would be different than if they just ate whatever everyone else was eating.
vnorilo 5y ago
I believe Thailand has methodically promoted its cuisine abroad as a way to garner cultural soft power. I, for one, do not mind in the least! Welcome our new larb moo overlords.
- gregsadetsky 5y ago
  Interesting article on the topic of Thailand's culinary diplomacy: https://www.vice.com/en/article/paxadz/the-surprising-reason-that-there-are-so-many-thai-restaurants-in-america https://www.vice.com/en/article/paxadz/the-surprising-reason...
- Wistar 5y ago
  A bit of a tangent but… well… interesting. "Thailand, to combat bad Thai food around the world, creates robot ‘e-delicious’ tasting machine" https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/191047-thailand-to-combat-bad-thai-food-around-the-world-creates-robot-e-delicious-tasting-machine https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/191047-thailand-to-comba...
- distantaidenn 5y ago
  And the world is better for it. Thai cuisine is the most fresh and flavorful I've ever experienced. Can't wait to visit again.
- badestrand 5y ago
  I rather think the simple truth is that some cuisines appeal to many more people than others. While surely every country and culture offers some tasty dishes I think there is a reason we see so many Italian, Thai and Japanese restaurants everywhere and so few German, Phillipine or Peruvian restaurants. I am German myself and I am sure you can find more Italian than native restaurants in Germany, simply because it makes for a better dining experience. Not everything needs to be socially constructed.
  - bhaak 5y ago
    > I am German myself and I am sure you can find more Italian than native restaurants in Germany, simply because it makes for a better dining experience. Not everything needs to be socially constructed. I doubt that. Every eating place where you can get a bratwurst or a currywurst would count as a German restaurant as everyplace where you can get only pizza would count as Italian restaurant. If we look at higher priced restaurants it gets fuzzy anyway as those restaurants in Europe are more influenced by French cuisine than the native ones and this wouldn't be any different in Germany or Italy as the influence of French culture was pretty dominant in the past centuries.
bpicolo 5y ago
Can find plenty in NYC (and it's all fantastic). Many foods get more widespread as consequence of being hip for a time. Hasn't had its hip movement yet?
Clewza313 5y ago
Having visited the Phils quite a few times, the food is notably spice-deficient compared to nearly all its neighbors: a typical Filipino dish is flavored with exactly one thing, usually garlic. Also, some of the ingredients used to make up for this blandness are unpalatable/weird to Westerners. Exhibit A is kare-kare, which is peanut butter and oxtail stew served with fermented shrimp paste (bagoong alamang), where the tiny shrimp are still visible, eyeballs and all. There are "good even if you didn't grow up with it" dishes like lechon (suckling pig), pork & chicken adobo and halo-halo, and some of the modern/upscale/fusiony places in Manila are amazing, but it would still be hard to have a Filipino place that's authentic and appealing to non-Filipino palates at the same time.
- contriban 5y ago
  I disagree, Vietnamese and Japanese dishes aren’t known for their spices and are bland when compared to Thai food. I’d say some Filipino dishes if anything are too aggressive since many of them are sour due to vinegar or tamarind. Also every mentioned country commonly used fermented fish/shrimp paste. The smelly “pla ra” is part of som tam but restaurants in the west probably don’t offer it at all. Phở is famous but bulalo (oxtail bone marrow soup) is not, yet the two are comparable. The latter has a large piece of oxtail that would make it a delicacy on its own, and it’s good-looking too. With a set of base dishes that taste good and look good for westerners, I’m not sure the taste is what’s keeping Filipino cuisine a secret. Ethiopian food is “common” in Los Angeles, but I wouldn’t say it’s particularly varied or spiced.
  - hdhjebebeb 5y ago
    Ethiopian food is very spiced in my experience - mitmita and berebere are the two distinctive spice mixes that come to mind. The local place makes doro wat so spicy that my partner can't even eat it!

Bayart 5y ago

Here in France we have a lot of "Chinese" or more generically "Asian" restaurants. They're all Vietnamese ! I guess Vietnam wasn't a particularly exotic or dreamy location after having been a colony for a century, and then the two Indochina wars. Similarly, I've never heard of an Algerian restaurant. But Moroccan or Lebanese ones are quite common (and the relationships of France with Morocco and Lebanon much better and less contentious).

denton-scratch 5y ago
There's an Algerian pattisier within walking distance of my home. It's very good! A match for any French pattisier.

Pamar 5y ago

Italian expat (who still visits Italy regularly and has some interest in Japanese culture) here: you are right in writing Japanese in quotes: most Japanese restaurants in Italy are actually owned/operated by Chinese families. The average Italian does not distinguish the two languages and therefore anyone of Eastern ethnicity can usually "pretend" to be Chinese, Korean,Japanese or Vietnamese without fear of being "unmasked" by general public.

bpodgursky 5y ago
Dunno why people care so much about the ancestry of the owner. I've had good sushi from Korean owners, and good Pho from Chinese restauranteurs. Cooking takes experience and effort, not some weird genetic memory.
- distantaidenn 5y ago
  Well, sushi is also a big thing in Korea -- Japanese influence and all that. And if we wanna just explore say, raw seafood dishes, I'd argue Korean cuisine has a lot more variety. If you ever get the chance, do visit Busan for some amazing seafood. Source: currently live in Tokyo, have also lived in Korea (Seoul) for years, and I eat everything.
- beaconstudios 5y ago
  My guess would be that, growing up in the culture you would be expected to have a better knowledge of what constitutes good food for your culture,moreso than having learned how to cook, say, Italian food from a cookbook.
- Pamar 5y ago
  Cooking also requires specific ingredients, and someone who knows what mozzarella is and how should taste would probably have less problems to source it (or find an "acceptable" local product) when preparing Pizza in Alaska or Tokyo or Oslo... Genetics has little to do with that, though: lots of ITALIAN pizzerias IN ITALY now hire Egyptian citizens to prepare and (most importantly) cook their pizzas. And nobody has any problem with the way the pizza comes out. My point is: if you are in the place where a specific dish was "invented", you have access to appropriate ingredients and lots of know-how from the locals. If you grew up in a culture were the dish is available only through ethnic restaurants, proper ingredients might be difficult to find, and most importantly, your own taste (to judge if the food is "correct" or if one of the ingredients is "good enough") is somehow distorted because you are too far from the originals.