16 ms·

HK's Apple Daily raided by 500 officers over national security law

446 points by awb 5y ago

wyldfire 5y ago
Is this retaliation for US and EU putting trade disputes aside?
- jollybean 5y ago
  It's inevitable. There is no chance the CCP will allow a free press under it's umbrella. They just need to find the right bit of populism to excuse the rundown i.e. 'They are causing sanctions'. They'll get no sympathy on the mainland, and in HK they'll try to go on as normal as though it did not happen. What the 'Rest of the World' should do is just recognize that HK is not 'China' and remove their special access to markets, currency etc.. China will use HK as their access point to the global economy unless the West does something about it, sadly, they may not.
  - selimthegrim 5y ago
    Do they need HK as long as there are no sanctions otherwise?
    - jollybean 5y ago
      HK is the financial gateway between China and the Rest of the World and that's how most foreign direct investment happens. It's because HK is open to the world and also China, but ROW not really open to China. China, by 'taking over HK' really implies that HK shouldn't really enjoy fee access to world markets. This is unlikely to change though as the situation benefits everyone financial and it's not based on human rights rather it was based on transparency, commercial law, accounting standards etc.. So as long as investors stay protected, that commercial law remains in place, they can get their money out, that balance sheets still mean what they did before ... it's probably just going to stay that way. China doesn't need to change those things to control HK, all they need to do is clamp down on the political system and eject anyone 'causing trouble'. Which they can do. If China went after foreign account holders, or if vaporware mainland accounting standards start showing up in HK companies it may eventually be a problem, but I don't see why that would change. Due to the fact the lease to UK was a set timeframe, China holds all the cards here.
      - SXX 5y ago
        Change of accounting standards will certainly follow as totalitarian governments are walking hand in hand with creative accounting. You just cant have society of doublespeak and censorship while maintaining transparent financial system. If CCP will try to preserve financial system degradation might just take longer, but after few decades and several imminient emigration waves it's will be mainland all over.
      - selimthegrim 5y ago
        I thought Shanghai had a pretty large share at this point, nonconvertibility of the yuan notwithstanding.
- vkou 5y ago
  No, it's just local political repression.
phyalow 5y ago
This is another nail in the coffin of the Hong Kong we knew and loved… I was a resident for many years, I witnessed the peaceful protests of 2014, I witnessed horrifying wanton violence in 2019, I witnessed the rapid destruction of the freest laissez faire city state in the world. Above all I feel great sadness for the people of Hong Kong. The CCP cannot tolerate any dissenting voices as a matter of preserving their total grip on power. It was an inevitability Hong Kong would be crushed and silenced although the world and Hong Kong was caught off guard by the speed at which this has occurred. I take some consolation with the G7's recent communique.
- xwolfi 5y ago
  While I agree, as a current resident, I also witnessed the insane destructive behavior of Apple Daily, who did exagerate quite a bit the situation and was far from a neutral observer. I'd even say that telling kids the police murdered 2000 people was not exactly helping them strategize rather than throw themselves in desperate waves at the police... These guys all pushed the situation towards a point of no return for the communists, which could have been instead worked around. Ofc a strong and self assured nation would be able to swallow it, and China shows us how weak and self doubting it is, but I won't cry too many tears for that newspaper. I'm even a tad annoyed Lai is presented as a glorious press freedom figure when I felt reading it that it was on the abusive side of freedom. I guess we all need now to redraw the line at which we collaborate vs resist and Im not yet at the resist stage.
  - jollybean 5y ago
    We don't cry tears because of the kind of journalism, we cry tears because it was on some level journalism or at minimum freedom of expression and the clampdown means the same it will happen to you if you try that route. Anyone who contradicts Putin and gets any stickiness or popularity ends up dead. You don't have to agree with Putin's antagonists to realize why that is bad.
    - hungryhobo 5y ago
      tell that to twitter or facebook
typeformer 5y ago
This is tragic, the US, Japan, Canada, GB, AUS, the EU need to band together to counter China’s egregious rights abuses instead of solely pursuing their own business and national interests. They could all offer residency programs for the bright students and others that are currently suffocating there. China can’t punish all these countries together. If no one stands up Taiwan will be next to fall and then China would have unprecedented power by controlling the chip industry….
- makeitdouble 5y ago
  In the current climate if the US doesn't move nobody will (or it will just be a "look at me" gesture) Why do I think so? Because the US accumulated that unprecedented power you refer to, and Japan or GB or Canada trying anything from themselves just means they'll be pissing in the wind until the US decides to do it as well. The EU seems to me the only exception to that, but then I am not sure its majority sees a big difference between dealing with China instead of dealing with the US. PS: GB already offers specific routes for HK residents to come over.
  - adventured 5y ago
    There are no actions the US, EU, Japan & Co. can collective take that will alter China's political system from the outside. It's why whenever people talk about ganging up on China, they're always extremely vague about it. That's because it's entirely bunk. Do something! What? Something! Do a thing! Which thing? The thing! It's identical to bumper stickers that (used to) say: Save Tibet, it's largely empty virtue signaling or wishful thinking. It's not realistic. You can sanction them. It does not matter. You can stop all trade with them. It does not matter. They're free standing now, their domestic consumer market doesn't need the US & EU. Their banks don't need outside financing. Their government doesn't need outside financing. Their households have $65-$80 trillion in wealth. They don't require the West's technology trade, they can clone most of it. And so on. The world population count will add two plus billion people outside of the US, Europe and Japan in the next ~30-35 years. Those people will all do business with China, no matter what the US/EU/Japan do. Those 2.x billion people will represent an economy comparable to the EU. Trump's Admin took a severe counter-China / stop-China position (as staunch as we'll ever see in the US), it made no significant difference. China is more powerful now than they were five years ago, both economically and militarily. Their share of global manufacturing has never been higher. Their military can't be opposed anywhere near their borders, they're the world's clear #2 military now, and are increasingly superior to Russia (which can't come close to keeping up in either hardware numbers or technology at this point). At the rate that China's military capabilities are accelerating, they'll easily be twice as powerful militarily overall as Russia within the decade, including having at least four aircraft carriers and a vastly superior space program to what Russia has. Russia will soon be a joke compared to China in military terms (which tells you what the EU is going to look like next to China). So, there's zero threat to pose to China militarily to alter their behavior. The US also has no interest in committing suicide to fight with China, eg over Taiwan. The odds are that Taiwan is already gone, it's just a matter of buying as much time as possible to diversify off of relying on Taiwan for tech manufacturing. The US plan is to make it difficult on China, to add expensive drag to the context, everyone in DC knows the US can't stop China from taking Taiwan if they want it. And China is going to keep getting stronger in most respects for the next decade or two. During that time Russia will be entirely stagnant, and so will most of Europe. China will tower over everyone except the US (China will have an economy twice the size of the EU given a few decades). The US will be borderline stagnant (average US growth will continue to push toward zero across this decade and next, a long-term trend), as it can't afford its present level of military spending or government spending at all. Meanwhile China's military spending and capabilities will expand while the US capabilities go sideways or contract. China knows all of this, time is on their side. What's left? Nothing. Attempts would be feeble at best, it would change nothing. We're 30 years past the time to try to flip or contain China, if it was ever possible to begin with. The sole reason to blockade China today (politically, economically), is for your own moral reasons (which is an entirely fine reason), not to try to change China (which isn't possible) or otherwise meaningfully restrict them. The West de facto blockaded Soviet Russia for decades, however that's not what stopped them, that's not what collapsed their system. The West barely traded with the USSR. It took 3/4 of a century for that monstrosity to fail regardless. China's system is at least several times more sustainable at this point than the USSR ever was, and dramatically more potent economically. Whatever change might happen in China will be of their own doing. Whatever leadership follows Xi will be the next opportunity for the people of China to have a shot at altering their trajectory. That could easily be decades away yet. China is unlikely to ever liberalize, the best you're ever going to get is either Deng Xiaoping or Xi/Mao in terms of authoritarianism; it's for exactly the same reason Russia will never liberalize, there is no other means to hold their territory together other than through authoritarianism, it would immediately begin to unspool otherwise. Things that would not exist organically/naturally (such as the USSR, or Russia's present territory), will cease to exist unless you hold them together through great actions of force. Tibet and Hong Kong do not willingly belong to China, nor will Taiwan, as an example of that in action.
jollybean 5y ago
'Hollister California' brand shout out there from the HK Police.
satonakamoto 5y ago
https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/security/how-fake-persona-laid-groundwork-hunter-biden-conspiracy-deluge-n1245387#anchor-BehindTyphoon https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/security/how-fake-persona-laid-... keyword:Apple Daily
jacob2484 5y ago
Feel truly bad for Hong Kong here. Sadly nothing will be done here by the west. Let's not forget a "social justice" warrior LeBron James criticized an NBA owner for tweeting "Stand with Hong Kong" not too long ago. It's all about money in the west.
- coolspot 5y ago
  “So many people could have been hurt [not only] financially, but physically, emotionally, spiritually" - LeBron James
- ezequiel-garzon 5y ago
  “Sadly nothing will be done here by the west.” What concrete actions would you suggest?
  - zero_deg_kevin 5y ago
    I hope they’re not inviting us to bomb China until representative democracy takes root. We’re not terribly good at that, but we’re far more effective at that than diplomacy.
nahnopay 5y ago
Hong Kong government can get fucked, I no longer have any incentive to visit so fuck that tax bill that will only get channeled to corrupt forces ran by the mainlanders. It's a sad situation though because the Hong Kong people are genuinely lovely people, polar opposite of a cross the border. Sure call me out, but the belief is stronger in native hong longers than the expat community, you have to live there to appreciate.
- lvturner 5y ago
  > It's a sad situation though because the Hong Kong people are genuinely lovely people, polar opposite of a cross the border. Sure call me out, but the belief is stronger in native hong longers than the expat community, you have to live there to appreciate. That is an incredibly ignorant which racist statement which I do not feel belongs on Hacker News.
  - mads 5y ago
    I dont get it. What is racist about it?
    - lvturner 5y ago
      I will take your question in good faith and assume that you merely missed it due to the way the original statement was worded. It explicitly states that everyone "over the border" (in Mainland China) are the polar opposite of "genuinely lovely people" which would be to say that every single person living in/from Mainland China is a horrible/nasty person. This is quite clearly both ignorant and racist - also, provably false.
      - diggernet 5y ago
        Ignorant, yes. Provably false, yes. Bigoted, yes. Racist, no. Both "over the border" and "genuinely lovely" groups are the same race.
        5y ago
o-__-o 5y ago
I was watching HK Apple Daily since the Hong Kong protests and lately a few of their latest videos have been showing up in my feed. While I’ve stopped watching, the thumbnails look incendiary in nature so seeing this happen is not surprising considering the news security law
- potatofarmer45 5y ago
  Every time any Chinese diplomat opens their mouth, something incendiary comes out these days. There will be books written in the future and these times will be used an example on how to lose friends fast. The absolute reverse of soft power.
user3939382 5y ago
As far as I can tell, you have US regulatory capture by the same multinational corporations and their executives which are getting rich by marketing products and services driven heavily by Chinese labor and supply chains. They have no financial interest in rocking the boat with the CCP, so Washington’s intervention will never amount to more than empty rhetoric and saber rattling. Sadly for Hong Kong, US big tech, energy, healthcare, etc don’t care if they’re free so they won’t be.
- milofeynman 5y ago
  The whataboutism propaganda has no place here.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
Wolfenstein98k 5y ago
Hong Kong is dead, and the CCP killed it. Daily reminder that the Chinese Government should never ever be trusted. China agreed not to touch Hong Kong's system politically or economically until at least 2047. They couldn't manage even half of that, and there are now many Hong Kongers sitting in jail for the "crime" of supporting democracy in Hong Kong (not even China!), which was made illegal by the CCP under "national security" laws. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_country,_two_systems https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_country,_two_systems
- dragonsh 5y ago
  > Hong Kong (not even China!) Hong Kong is China since 1997 with same nationality law that's the reason its called one country and two systems. Obviously the thin layer between two system is getting thinner, because like any law, basic law can be interpreted to suite the needs of how the two systems should be. I believe all of this is happening given China does not want to be another USSR. Hong Kong was used as a launch pad to do the same and ruling establishment learning from the past actions in cold war between US and USSR cracked down heavily using the interpretation of basic law to suite their needs. It was inevitable, just the time-line shortened due to the kind of chaos Hong Kong went through with violent protests.
  - dcolkitt 5y ago
    China specifically agreed under the terms of the transfer to allow for Hong Kong's continued independence in domestic matters until 2047. Beijing is in flagrant violations of its international treaty obligations. The New Territories were under a 99 year lease, but Britain was under no obligation to transfer Hong Kong Island and Kowloon back at any time for any reason. They graciously agreed to return them for China, but in exchange Beijing made explicit promises, which it's openly disregarding.
    - whydoibother 5y ago
      > They graciously agreed to return them for China Sorry, but you can't 'graciously' return a colony. It was something they never should have had.
hohohmm 5y ago
Well deserved. Apple Daily is not pro democrazy but pro-chaos. It routinely manufatures fake news and rumors that only matched by the mainstream fake news. I'm all for pro democrazy. But there is a clear line between pushing a democratic agenda for the benefit of Hong Kong people and that of provoking dissidents at any opportunity possible with whatever means possible, to foster agendas by local tycoons and foreign intelligence agencies, which eventually cost Hong Kong people. If you have never read the published paper on fostering dissidents for "academic" research in Hong Kong pease search for it.
- artificialLimbs 5y ago
  >> It routinely manufatures fake news and rumors... For which there is and should be plenty of room in a functioning society that is free to voice its opinion, however "pro-chaos".
  - hohohmm 5y ago
    I guess even the lowest bar of news integrity is an optional choice when it comes to Hong Kong?
    - pcwalton 5y ago
      Universal Declaration of Human Rights, article 19: "Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers." Notice how there's no clause stating that this right is conditional on "news integrity".
      - throwaway4good 5y ago
        Any country put limits on its media, and free media is not always a force for good: https://www.pressgazette.co.uk/in-depth-the-63-uk-journalists-arrested-andor-charged-following-the-news-of-the-world-hacking-scandal/ https://www.pressgazette.co.uk/in-depth-the-63-uk-journalist... In depth: The 63 UK journalists arrested and/or charged following the News of the World hacking scandal
discordance 5y ago
Just a note that Apple Daily [0] is a pro-democracy tabloid and is not affiliated with Apple computer. 0: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Daily https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Daily
hindsightbias 5y ago
On to Taiwan
potatofarmer45 5y ago
I just want to point about the comments on this post. There are literally 3 commenters who posting nothing but whataboutisms and clear falsehoods. That is enough to rile up everyone else and make the thread quite toxic. This is how Chinese trolls operate across the board. They know they can't win any arguments based on facts and logic so they muddle the waters such that the truth is lost in a sea of lies. The Chinese wonder why more and more people have negative views of China yet they don't seem to realize their own "wolf warrior" nationalistic falsehood-driven jingoism is the root cause. Why bother engage if you're just going to get fed the same lies over and over again?
- dang 5y ago
  Please don't break the site guidelines like this. They explicitly ask you not to post such insinuations (because the overwhelming majority of them are entirely in the eye of the beholder, and because they poison conversation) and to email hn@ycombinator.com instead if you're worried about abuse. I've posted about this thousands of times, so there's plenty of past explanation if you or anyone wants more: https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix=true&page=0&query=by:dang%20astroturf https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme... https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20-recycling%20chin&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... (Actually I've probably only posted about this hundreds of times, but it feels like thousands.) Also, please don't post nationalistic flamewar comments to HN generally.
xvector 5y ago
And China's industry has the world by the balls, so there's not much that can be done from an external perspective to prevent this. That said, I'm not sure many nations would do anything even if China didn't have leverage over them.
- RcouF1uZ4gsC 5y ago
  Hong Kong’s fate was sealed in 1984 when the UK agreed to return it to China. And that was when China was far weaker than now, and could have been confronted at far less cost. Instead, the West got played, transferring massive capital and know-how to China while convincing themselves that economic integration would inevitably lead to greater political freedom.
  - baby 5y ago
    This is true. Sometimes I wonder if the UK thought HK would become a trojan horse. A symbol of good living standards and democracy. That was ignoring thousands of years of wars for unification that built China. It is built on blood and blood will continue to be shed until the whole of China is united. This is what reading books and watching movies will tell you.
    - techrat 5y ago
      All you have to do is look at who was in power in 1984. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_1984_British_incumbents https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_1984_British_incumbent... (TLDR: Conservatives.)
    - sangnoir 5y ago
      > Sometimes I wonder if the UK thought HK would become a trojan horse You may be in luck - a whole bunch of UK documents and letters from the Thatcher era were unclassified recently. You can search the archive for any mention of "Hong Kong"[1], or any other keyword of interest 1. https://www.margaretthatcher.org/search?dt=0&w=hong+kong&searchtype=phrase&t=0&starty=&startm=&startd=&endy=&endm=&endd=&onedayy=&onedaym=&onedayd=&doctype%5B%5D=archive https://www.margaretthatcher.org/search?dt=0&w=hong+kong&sea...
thinktankie 5y ago
A reminder that Mark Simon, a senior figure at Next Media (owner of Apple Daily), has literally worked for the CIA and his father was a senior US intelligence officer. [1] [1] https://www.citizendaily.news/mark-simon-jimmy-lais-right-hand-former-cia-spy-and-us-navy-intelligence/ https://www.citizendaily.news/mark-simon-jimmy-lais-right-ha...
- arafooo 5y ago
  The same site also states Xi Jinping to be in an incestuous relationship with his own daughter. This is not credible.
  - thinktankie 5y ago
    His employment and family history is a fact and has been reported elsewhere also. Hopefully Financial Times is credible enough for you [1]. Would you mind sharing the link to the article about Xi Jinping’s “incestuous relationship” with his daughter? I couldn’t find it. [1] “The claims are driven by the fact that Mark Simon, Mr Lai’s right-hand man, is the son of a veteran CIA officer and has worked for US naval intelligence.” https://www.ft.com/content/f1cb693e-2f44-11e4-a79c-00144feabdc0 https://www.ft.com/content/f1cb693e-2f44-11e4-a79c-00144feab...
lwansbrough 5y ago
My hope is, just as it's commonplace for Chinese people to learn English, it becomes commonplace for Westerners to learn Mandarin. Only once we can communicate can we start to break through cultural and ideological barriers. It would be impossible to stop the flood of readily consumable Western Mandarin media and culture. Unfortunately I think too many would see learning Mandarin as China winning a culture war, instead of seeing it as building a foundation for expropriating the CCP's control over Chinese ideology.
- graderjs 5y ago
  I definitely think there should be more cultural exchange, but as to your "missionary" plan of attack, it doesn't really work like that. If you really want to alter China having this fantasy that you're simply better than they are all you need is for them to see it will not help. Many Chinese people already speak English, have lived and travelled overseas, but "dangerous" Western ideas have not penetrated into and changed their culture. The reason is not because: "the CPC controls it", it's because people Chinese people are very proud of who they are, and they accept the CPC is doing the right thing. Not meaning 100% agreement with the government -- it regularly bends to the will of the people to cool their anger when it's done something that didn't work. Somewhat related to your point: I think people should definitely engage with China more, rather than just the biased hologram of China presented in Western media. That's good for everyone, whatever your goal is. The culture bias goes both ways, and there's probably people who hope Westerners don't get a clear idea of China, and don't want them to learn Mandarin and engage more, because they're afraid of "Chinese ideas" penetrating and "expropriating" (to use your term) their culture and control.
Ice_cream_suit 5y ago
The owner of Apple Daily should thank his stars that he is not charged under Australian law. We have a situation here in Australia where people accused of vaguely defined "national security" crimes are charged secretly and tried by secret courts. We have also had counter-terrorism police raid and arrest journalists and youtube comedians because a minister felt that he was insulted by them.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
killenemy 5y ago
Myanmar coup, daily taiwan incursions, hk muzzling. Trump really needs to get off his twitter and actually do something. Oh wait ... Sorry I know I need to be silent
noirchen 5y ago
Perhaps Biden administration has no reaction because Apple Daily (and its boss) was very active in spreading misinformation about Hunter Biden https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-hongkong-politics-idUKKBN27G08M https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-hongkong-politics-idUKKBN... I am not sure if the president is in fact happy about the raid. One has to pay the price if good ol' Joe is pissed.
mathgenius 5y ago
This is a pretty cool response: "Hong Kong democracy paper runs defiant edition day after raid" - yahoo news https://news.yahoo.com/hong-kong-democracy-paper-runs-023820079.html https://news.yahoo.com/hong-kong-democracy-paper-runs-023820...
xtracto 5y ago
>U.S. State Department spokesman Ned Price said the United States was "deeply concerned by Hong Kong authorities' selective use of the national security law to arbitrarily target independent media organizations cough Julian Assange cough
dng88 5y ago
You can’t trust the ccp. End of 1c2s. But would the west continue to finance thru hk chinese development. If so, all is end. American chamber of commerce said 40% plan to go. But still 60% stay ? Then all the Liberty of hk is lost for nothing ? Wonder.
greyhair 5y ago
Those that think Taiwan is not next are fooling themselves.
known 5y ago
"Politics is supposed to be the second oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first" --Ronald Reagan (b. 1911)

446 points by awb 5y ago

wyldfire 5y ago

Is this retaliation for US and EU putting trade disputes aside?

jollybean 5y ago
It's inevitable. There is no chance the CCP will allow a free press under it's umbrella. They just need to find the right bit of populism to excuse the rundown i.e. 'They are causing sanctions'. They'll get no sympathy on the mainland, and in HK they'll try to go on as normal as though it did not happen. What the 'Rest of the World' should do is just recognize that HK is not 'China' and remove their special access to markets, currency etc.. China will use HK as their access point to the global economy unless the West does something about it, sadly, they may not.
- selimthegrim 5y ago
  Do they need HK as long as there are no sanctions otherwise?
  - jollybean 5y ago
    HK is the financial gateway between China and the Rest of the World and that's how most foreign direct investment happens. It's because HK is open to the world and also China, but ROW not really open to China. China, by 'taking over HK' really implies that HK shouldn't really enjoy fee access to world markets. This is unlikely to change though as the situation benefits everyone financial and it's not based on human rights rather it was based on transparency, commercial law, accounting standards etc.. So as long as investors stay protected, that commercial law remains in place, they can get their money out, that balance sheets still mean what they did before ... it's probably just going to stay that way. China doesn't need to change those things to control HK, all they need to do is clamp down on the political system and eject anyone 'causing trouble'. Which they can do. If China went after foreign account holders, or if vaporware mainland accounting standards start showing up in HK companies it may eventually be a problem, but I don't see why that would change. Due to the fact the lease to UK was a set timeframe, China holds all the cards here.
    - SXX 5y ago
      Change of accounting standards will certainly follow as totalitarian governments are walking hand in hand with creative accounting. You just cant have society of doublespeak and censorship while maintaining transparent financial system. If CCP will try to preserve financial system degradation might just take longer, but after few decades and several imminient emigration waves it's will be mainland all over.
    - selimthegrim 5y ago
      I thought Shanghai had a pretty large share at this point, nonconvertibility of the yuan notwithstanding.
vkou 5y ago
No, it's just local political repression.

phyalow 5y ago

This is another nail in the coffin of the Hong Kong we knew and loved… I was a resident for many years, I witnessed the peaceful protests of 2014, I witnessed horrifying wanton violence in 2019, I witnessed the rapid destruction of the freest laissez faire city state in the world. Above all I feel great sadness for the people of Hong Kong. The CCP cannot tolerate any dissenting voices as a matter of preserving their total grip on power. It was an inevitability Hong Kong would be crushed and silenced although the world and Hong Kong was caught off guard by the speed at which this has occurred. I take some consolation with the G7's recent communique.

xwolfi 5y ago
While I agree, as a current resident, I also witnessed the insane destructive behavior of Apple Daily, who did exagerate quite a bit the situation and was far from a neutral observer. I'd even say that telling kids the police murdered 2000 people was not exactly helping them strategize rather than throw themselves in desperate waves at the police... These guys all pushed the situation towards a point of no return for the communists, which could have been instead worked around. Ofc a strong and self assured nation would be able to swallow it, and China shows us how weak and self doubting it is, but I won't cry too many tears for that newspaper. I'm even a tad annoyed Lai is presented as a glorious press freedom figure when I felt reading it that it was on the abusive side of freedom. I guess we all need now to redraw the line at which we collaborate vs resist and Im not yet at the resist stage.
- jollybean 5y ago
  We don't cry tears because of the kind of journalism, we cry tears because it was on some level journalism or at minimum freedom of expression and the clampdown means the same it will happen to you if you try that route. Anyone who contradicts Putin and gets any stickiness or popularity ends up dead. You don't have to agree with Putin's antagonists to realize why that is bad.
  - hungryhobo 5y ago
    tell that to twitter or facebook

typeformer 5y ago

This is tragic, the US, Japan, Canada, GB, AUS, the EU need to band together to counter China’s egregious rights abuses instead of solely pursuing their own business and national interests. They could all offer residency programs for the bright students and others that are currently suffocating there. China can’t punish all these countries together. If no one stands up Taiwan will be next to fall and then China would have unprecedented power by controlling the chip industry….

makeitdouble 5y ago
In the current climate if the US doesn't move nobody will (or it will just be a "look at me" gesture) Why do I think so? Because the US accumulated that unprecedented power you refer to, and Japan or GB or Canada trying anything from themselves just means they'll be pissing in the wind until the US decides to do it as well. The EU seems to me the only exception to that, but then I am not sure its majority sees a big difference between dealing with China instead of dealing with the US. PS: GB already offers specific routes for HK residents to come over.
- adventured 5y ago
  There are no actions the US, EU, Japan & Co. can collective take that will alter China's political system from the outside. It's why whenever people talk about ganging up on China, they're always extremely vague about it. That's because it's entirely bunk. Do something! What? Something! Do a thing! Which thing? The thing! It's identical to bumper stickers that (used to) say: Save Tibet, it's largely empty virtue signaling or wishful thinking. It's not realistic. You can sanction them. It does not matter. You can stop all trade with them. It does not matter. They're free standing now, their domestic consumer market doesn't need the US & EU. Their banks don't need outside financing. Their government doesn't need outside financing. Their households have $65-$80 trillion in wealth. They don't require the West's technology trade, they can clone most of it. And so on. The world population count will add two plus billion people outside of the US, Europe and Japan in the next ~30-35 years. Those people will all do business with China, no matter what the US/EU/Japan do. Those 2.x billion people will represent an economy comparable to the EU. Trump's Admin took a severe counter-China / stop-China position (as staunch as we'll ever see in the US), it made no significant difference. China is more powerful now than they were five years ago, both economically and militarily. Their share of global manufacturing has never been higher. Their military can't be opposed anywhere near their borders, they're the world's clear #2 military now, and are increasingly superior to Russia (which can't come close to keeping up in either hardware numbers or technology at this point). At the rate that China's military capabilities are accelerating, they'll easily be twice as powerful militarily overall as Russia within the decade, including having at least four aircraft carriers and a vastly superior space program to what Russia has. Russia will soon be a joke compared to China in military terms (which tells you what the EU is going to look like next to China). So, there's zero threat to pose to China militarily to alter their behavior. The US also has no interest in committing suicide to fight with China, eg over Taiwan. The odds are that Taiwan is already gone, it's just a matter of buying as much time as possible to diversify off of relying on Taiwan for tech manufacturing. The US plan is to make it difficult on China, to add expensive drag to the context, everyone in DC knows the US can't stop China from taking Taiwan if they want it. And China is going to keep getting stronger in most respects for the next decade or two. During that time Russia will be entirely stagnant, and so will most of Europe. China will tower over everyone except the US (China will have an economy twice the size of the EU given a few decades). The US will be borderline stagnant (average US growth will continue to push toward zero across this decade and next, a long-term trend), as it can't afford its present level of military spending or government spending at all. Meanwhile China's military spending and capabilities will expand while the US capabilities go sideways or contract. China knows all of this, time is on their side. What's left? Nothing. Attempts would be feeble at best, it would change nothing. We're 30 years past the time to try to flip or contain China, if it was ever possible to begin with. The sole reason to blockade China today (politically, economically), is for your own moral reasons (which is an entirely fine reason), not to try to change China (which isn't possible) or otherwise meaningfully restrict them. The West de facto blockaded Soviet Russia for decades, however that's not what stopped them, that's not what collapsed their system. The West barely traded with the USSR. It took 3/4 of a century for that monstrosity to fail regardless. China's system is at least several times more sustainable at this point than the USSR ever was, and dramatically more potent economically. Whatever change might happen in China will be of their own doing. Whatever leadership follows Xi will be the next opportunity for the people of China to have a shot at altering their trajectory. That could easily be decades away yet. China is unlikely to ever liberalize, the best you're ever going to get is either Deng Xiaoping or Xi/Mao in terms of authoritarianism; it's for exactly the same reason Russia will never liberalize, there is no other means to hold their territory together other than through authoritarianism, it would immediately begin to unspool otherwise. Things that would not exist organically/naturally (such as the USSR, or Russia's present territory), will cease to exist unless you hold them together through great actions of force. Tibet and Hong Kong do not willingly belong to China, nor will Taiwan, as an example of that in action.

jollybean 5y ago

'Hollister California' brand shout out there from the HK Police.

satonakamoto 5y ago

https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/security/how-fake-persona-laid-groundwork-hunter-biden-conspiracy-deluge-n1245387#anchor-BehindTyphoon https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/security/how-fake-persona-laid-... keyword:Apple Daily

jacob2484 5y ago

Feel truly bad for Hong Kong here. Sadly nothing will be done here by the west. Let's not forget a "social justice" warrior LeBron James criticized an NBA owner for tweeting "Stand with Hong Kong" not too long ago. It's all about money in the west.

coolspot 5y ago
“So many people could have been hurt [not only] financially, but physically, emotionally, spiritually" - LeBron James
ezequiel-garzon 5y ago
“Sadly nothing will be done here by the west.” What concrete actions would you suggest?
- zero_deg_kevin 5y ago
  I hope they’re not inviting us to bomb China until representative democracy takes root. We’re not terribly good at that, but we’re far more effective at that than diplomacy.

nahnopay 5y ago

Hong Kong government can get fucked, I no longer have any incentive to visit so fuck that tax bill that will only get channeled to corrupt forces ran by the mainlanders. It's a sad situation though because the Hong Kong people are genuinely lovely people, polar opposite of a cross the border. Sure call me out, but the belief is stronger in native hong longers than the expat community, you have to live there to appreciate.

lvturner 5y ago
> It's a sad situation though because the Hong Kong people are genuinely lovely people, polar opposite of a cross the border. Sure call me out, but the belief is stronger in native hong longers than the expat community, you have to live there to appreciate. That is an incredibly ignorant which racist statement which I do not feel belongs on Hacker News.
- mads 5y ago
  I dont get it. What is racist about it?
  - lvturner 5y ago
    I will take your question in good faith and assume that you merely missed it due to the way the original statement was worded. It explicitly states that everyone "over the border" (in Mainland China) are the polar opposite of "genuinely lovely people" which would be to say that every single person living in/from Mainland China is a horrible/nasty person. This is quite clearly both ignorant and racist - also, provably false.
    - diggernet 5y ago
      Ignorant, yes. Provably false, yes. Bigoted, yes. Racist, no. Both "over the border" and "genuinely lovely" groups are the same race.
      - 5y ago

o-__-o 5y ago

I was watching HK Apple Daily since the Hong Kong protests and lately a few of their latest videos have been showing up in my feed. While I’ve stopped watching, the thumbnails look incendiary in nature so seeing this happen is not surprising considering the news security law

potatofarmer45 5y ago
Every time any Chinese diplomat opens their mouth, something incendiary comes out these days. There will be books written in the future and these times will be used an example on how to lose friends fast. The absolute reverse of soft power.

user3939382 5y ago

As far as I can tell, you have US regulatory capture by the same multinational corporations and their executives which are getting rich by marketing products and services driven heavily by Chinese labor and supply chains. They have no financial interest in rocking the boat with the CCP, so Washington’s intervention will never amount to more than empty rhetoric and saber rattling. Sadly for Hong Kong, US big tech, energy, healthcare, etc don’t care if they’re free so they won’t be.

milofeynman 5y ago
The whataboutism propaganda has no place here.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

Wolfenstein98k 5y ago

Hong Kong is dead, and the CCP killed it. Daily reminder that the Chinese Government should never ever be trusted. China agreed not to touch Hong Kong's system politically or economically until at least 2047. They couldn't manage even half of that, and there are now many Hong Kongers sitting in jail for the "crime" of supporting democracy in Hong Kong (not even China!), which was made illegal by the CCP under "national security" laws. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_country,_two_systems https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_country,_two_systems

dragonsh 5y ago
> Hong Kong (not even China!) Hong Kong is China since 1997 with same nationality law that's the reason its called one country and two systems. Obviously the thin layer between two system is getting thinner, because like any law, basic law can be interpreted to suite the needs of how the two systems should be. I believe all of this is happening given China does not want to be another USSR. Hong Kong was used as a launch pad to do the same and ruling establishment learning from the past actions in cold war between US and USSR cracked down heavily using the interpretation of basic law to suite their needs. It was inevitable, just the time-line shortened due to the kind of chaos Hong Kong went through with violent protests.
- dcolkitt 5y ago
  China specifically agreed under the terms of the transfer to allow for Hong Kong's continued independence in domestic matters until 2047. Beijing is in flagrant violations of its international treaty obligations. The New Territories were under a 99 year lease, but Britain was under no obligation to transfer Hong Kong Island and Kowloon back at any time for any reason. They graciously agreed to return them for China, but in exchange Beijing made explicit promises, which it's openly disregarding.
  - whydoibother 5y ago
    > They graciously agreed to return them for China Sorry, but you can't 'graciously' return a colony. It was something they never should have had.

hohohmm 5y ago

Well deserved. Apple Daily is not pro democrazy but pro-chaos. It routinely manufatures fake news and rumors that only matched by the mainstream fake news. I'm all for pro democrazy. But there is a clear line between pushing a democratic agenda for the benefit of Hong Kong people and that of provoking dissidents at any opportunity possible with whatever means possible, to foster agendas by local tycoons and foreign intelligence agencies, which eventually cost Hong Kong people. If you have never read the published paper on fostering dissidents for "academic" research in Hong Kong pease search for it.

artificialLimbs 5y ago
>> It routinely manufatures fake news and rumors... For which there is and should be plenty of room in a functioning society that is free to voice its opinion, however "pro-chaos".
- hohohmm 5y ago
  I guess even the lowest bar of news integrity is an optional choice when it comes to Hong Kong?
  - pcwalton 5y ago
    Universal Declaration of Human Rights, article 19: "Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers." Notice how there's no clause stating that this right is conditional on "news integrity".
    - throwaway4good 5y ago
      Any country put limits on its media, and free media is not always a force for good: https://www.pressgazette.co.uk/in-depth-the-63-uk-journalists-arrested-andor-charged-following-the-news-of-the-world-hacking-scandal/ https://www.pressgazette.co.uk/in-depth-the-63-uk-journalist... In depth: The 63 UK journalists arrested and/or charged following the News of the World hacking scandal

discordance 5y ago

Just a note that Apple Daily [0] is a pro-democracy tabloid and is not affiliated with Apple computer. 0: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Daily https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Daily

hindsightbias 5y ago

On to Taiwan

potatofarmer45 5y ago

I just want to point about the comments on this post. There are literally 3 commenters who posting nothing but whataboutisms and clear falsehoods. That is enough to rile up everyone else and make the thread quite toxic. This is how Chinese trolls operate across the board. They know they can't win any arguments based on facts and logic so they muddle the waters such that the truth is lost in a sea of lies. The Chinese wonder why more and more people have negative views of China yet they don't seem to realize their own "wolf warrior" nationalistic falsehood-driven jingoism is the root cause. Why bother engage if you're just going to get fed the same lies over and over again?

dang 5y ago
Please don't break the site guidelines like this. They explicitly ask you not to post such insinuations (because the overwhelming majority of them are entirely in the eye of the beholder, and because they poison conversation) and to email hn@ycombinator.com instead if you're worried about abuse. I've posted about this thousands of times, so there's plenty of past explanation if you or anyone wants more: https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix=true&page=0&query=by:dang%20astroturf https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme... https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20-recycling%20chin&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... (Actually I've probably only posted about this hundreds of times, but it feels like thousands.) Also, please don't post nationalistic flamewar comments to HN generally.

xvector 5y ago

And China's industry has the world by the balls, so there's not much that can be done from an external perspective to prevent this. That said, I'm not sure many nations would do anything even if China didn't have leverage over them.

RcouF1uZ4gsC 5y ago
Hong Kong’s fate was sealed in 1984 when the UK agreed to return it to China. And that was when China was far weaker than now, and could have been confronted at far less cost. Instead, the West got played, transferring massive capital and know-how to China while convincing themselves that economic integration would inevitably lead to greater political freedom.
- baby 5y ago
  This is true. Sometimes I wonder if the UK thought HK would become a trojan horse. A symbol of good living standards and democracy. That was ignoring thousands of years of wars for unification that built China. It is built on blood and blood will continue to be shed until the whole of China is united. This is what reading books and watching movies will tell you.
  - techrat 5y ago
    All you have to do is look at who was in power in 1984. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_1984_British_incumbents https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_1984_British_incumbent... (TLDR: Conservatives.)
  - sangnoir 5y ago
    > Sometimes I wonder if the UK thought HK would become a trojan horse You may be in luck - a whole bunch of UK documents and letters from the Thatcher era were unclassified recently. You can search the archive for any mention of "Hong Kong"[1], or any other keyword of interest 1. https://www.margaretthatcher.org/search?dt=0&w=hong+kong&searchtype=phrase&t=0&starty=&startm=&startd=&endy=&endm=&endd=&onedayy=&onedaym=&onedayd=&doctype%5B%5D=archive https://www.margaretthatcher.org/search?dt=0&w=hong+kong&sea...

thinktankie 5y ago

A reminder that Mark Simon, a senior figure at Next Media (owner of Apple Daily), has literally worked for the CIA and his father was a senior US intelligence officer. [1] [1] https://www.citizendaily.news/mark-simon-jimmy-lais-right-hand-former-cia-spy-and-us-navy-intelligence/ https://www.citizendaily.news/mark-simon-jimmy-lais-right-ha...

arafooo 5y ago
The same site also states Xi Jinping to be in an incestuous relationship with his own daughter. This is not credible.
- thinktankie 5y ago
  His employment and family history is a fact and has been reported elsewhere also. Hopefully Financial Times is credible enough for you [1]. Would you mind sharing the link to the article about Xi Jinping’s “incestuous relationship” with his daughter? I couldn’t find it. [1] “The claims are driven by the fact that Mark Simon, Mr Lai’s right-hand man, is the son of a veteran CIA officer and has worked for US naval intelligence.” https://www.ft.com/content/f1cb693e-2f44-11e4-a79c-00144feabdc0 https://www.ft.com/content/f1cb693e-2f44-11e4-a79c-00144feab...

lwansbrough 5y ago

My hope is, just as it's commonplace for Chinese people to learn English, it becomes commonplace for Westerners to learn Mandarin. Only once we can communicate can we start to break through cultural and ideological barriers. It would be impossible to stop the flood of readily consumable Western Mandarin media and culture. Unfortunately I think too many would see learning Mandarin as China winning a culture war, instead of seeing it as building a foundation for expropriating the CCP's control over Chinese ideology.

graderjs 5y ago
I definitely think there should be more cultural exchange, but as to your "missionary" plan of attack, it doesn't really work like that. If you really want to alter China having this fantasy that you're simply better than they are all you need is for them to see it will not help. Many Chinese people already speak English, have lived and travelled overseas, but "dangerous" Western ideas have not penetrated into and changed their culture. The reason is not because: "the CPC controls it", it's because people Chinese people are very proud of who they are, and they accept the CPC is doing the right thing. Not meaning 100% agreement with the government -- it regularly bends to the will of the people to cool their anger when it's done something that didn't work. Somewhat related to your point: I think people should definitely engage with China more, rather than just the biased hologram of China presented in Western media. That's good for everyone, whatever your goal is. The culture bias goes both ways, and there's probably people who hope Westerners don't get a clear idea of China, and don't want them to learn Mandarin and engage more, because they're afraid of "Chinese ideas" penetrating and "expropriating" (to use your term) their culture and control.

Ice_cream_suit 5y ago

The owner of Apple Daily should thank his stars that he is not charged under Australian law. We have a situation here in Australia where people accused of vaguely defined "national security" crimes are charged secretly and tried by secret courts. We have also had counter-terrorism police raid and arrest journalists and youtube comedians because a minister felt that he was insulted by them.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

killenemy 5y ago

Myanmar coup, daily taiwan incursions, hk muzzling. Trump really needs to get off his twitter and actually do something. Oh wait ... Sorry I know I need to be silent

noirchen 5y ago

Perhaps Biden administration has no reaction because Apple Daily (and its boss) was very active in spreading misinformation about Hunter Biden https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-hongkong-politics-idUKKBN27G08M https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-hongkong-politics-idUKKBN... I am not sure if the president is in fact happy about the raid. One has to pay the price if good ol' Joe is pissed.

mathgenius 5y ago

This is a pretty cool response: "Hong Kong democracy paper runs defiant edition day after raid" - yahoo news https://news.yahoo.com/hong-kong-democracy-paper-runs-023820079.html https://news.yahoo.com/hong-kong-democracy-paper-runs-023820...

xtracto 5y ago

>U.S. State Department spokesman Ned Price said the United States was "deeply concerned by Hong Kong authorities' selective use of the national security law to arbitrarily target independent media organizations cough Julian Assange cough

dng88 5y ago

You can’t trust the ccp. End of 1c2s. But would the west continue to finance thru hk chinese development. If so, all is end. American chamber of commerce said 40% plan to go. But still 60% stay ? Then all the Liberty of hk is lost for nothing ? Wonder.

greyhair 5y ago

Those that think Taiwan is not next are fooling themselves.

known 5y ago

"Politics is supposed to be the second oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first" --Ronald Reagan (b. 1911)