10 ms·

I'm from Argentina, and I can say that even though giving computers to students that didn't have access to one at home is an excellent thing to do, the sad trut

I'm from Argentina, and I can say that even though giving computers to students that didn't have access to one at home is an excellent thing to do, the sad truth is that many times cases like this are rare exceptions. Often the teachers and students public schools aren't taught how to incorporate these computers into their learning. Maybe they want to, but the lack of connectivity in many areas leaves students unable to partake in virtual classrooms, which is especially worrying considering that this group of students effectively couldn't receive an education for the better almost a whole year (at least). You can't expect to miraculously boost a kid's education by giving them a computer when they don't have internet connectivity at home, and missed a whole year of school due to covid. Many families can't afford to pay a monthly fee to an ISP. I still believe that this will be beneficial for many, nowadays having a computer opens up a lot of opportunities, but it can't replace a quality education, and magically fix a flawed education system.

mughinn 5y ago
It was a good program that felt like it was made for one part of the country without thinking of the rest. I've heard stories of people in Jujuy receiving a computer that didn't have electricity at their house
- Daishiman 5y ago
  The amount of people who don't have access to electricity in Argentina is minuscule compared to the total number of children who are aided by computer literacy. This is just nitpicky.
  - conanbatt 5y ago
    The amount of kids living below the poverty line is not a small one.
    - is_true 5y ago
      More than half. And now it got worse because lots of child used to eat once a day in school but schools are closed.
- dep_b 5y ago
  It's a netbook. It'll work a few hours after charging. Go to school -> charge -> return home and do your homework.
swiley 5y ago
The silly thing about the whole "no internet so can't distance learn" is that people have been doing correspondence schooling long before the internet was popular. The homeschooling community in the US has quite a few tools even for very hands-off parents and Australia has been doing it over the radio/mail for a long time. Blaming poor internet availability is just an excuse for failing to look at what's out there and adapt.
- acituan 5y ago
  I would say lack of home internet could even be an advantage. Because the moment new demographics go online en masse, big internet corporations start salivating. Without home internet no distractions, no dopamine hijacks, no content control issues, most importantly no imperative for parents to gain technological familiarity if they want to protect their kids. Kids could simply use school internet for research, download the relevant content, do the deep dive at home like they would do with any book from a library.
  - Koshkin 5y ago
    I get what you are saying, but we have to learn to live meaningfully, with the internet being now an inalienable part of our lives.
    - Retric 5y ago
      Why? The Amish are the extreme example, but you can minimize or even cut out the internet from your life if you want to.
      - Mediterraneo10 5y ago
        In Europe, more and more banks have been slashing opening hours and the number of clerks at physical locations, or even closing locations outright, because customers are expected to do nearly everything through online banking. Many forms of interaction with the state require using their online portal, and even if you visit the government office, they may just show you how to do what you need through the online portal instead of helping you directly. Programs to assist people who do not have a phone and internet, now focus on giving those people a phone and internet; there simply isn’t willingness to make technology optional for that tiny demographic that eschews internet use. Yes, the Amish have managed in the USA so far, but I think that even those days are numbered. Just as many Amish already own mobile phones, though they limit their use and keep them stashed away most of the time, they will be forced to do online things, too.
pelasaco 5y ago
But where in the article is being stated that a computer would replace quality education? The article is just describing an unexpected artistic scene development.
zzzpaz 5y ago
> the sad truth is that many times cases like this are rare exceptions. Well, giving a computer to someone doesn't turn them into a Bill Gates or Steve Jobs just because they own it. Depends on the attitude of whom receive it. You could say that most of the people will use it for fun and you entertainment. On the other side there are people who will use to uplift themselves and that's something that has to be appreciated. The truth is that these young man, without a computer wouldn't be in this situation today. So even if is an exception is still good to see that.
- rijoja 5y ago
  Well I learned to program and how UNIX systems worked from having a computer and a library. Today you wouldn't really need the library if you have an internet connection.
  - zzzpaz 5y ago
    What's the point? Indeed that's your attitude and is ok. At my age when I was in school the whole class had a computer (like 25 of us). Today of that class only 3 work using computer everyday. The second part of my comment explain that if you've the right attitude and interest then a computer can help you, if you don't is just another tool like your fridge
    - rijoja 5y ago
      Yeah but what's wrong with trying to provide as many tool as possible to people with the right attitude?
- inigojonesguy 5y ago
  >Well, giving a computer to someone doesn't turn them into a Bill Gates or Steve Jobs just because they own it. I read this comment, I read the article and can't stop thinking what if Zuck were among these kids them maybe we could admire him as a musical talent like L-GANTE (link from the article) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SacHyFb_j1o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SacHyFb_j1o
- 5y ago
Daishiman 5y ago
I'm from Argentina as well and I believe this attitude is exactly what's wrong when people critiqued this program. Yes, we _know_ it's not going to fix a flawed education system. There's not a person in this entire country who has ever believed otherwise, and using it as a critique of the program has been nothing but a strawman. We live a in a world where everything is done online. If the only objective this achieved is that kids are now familiar with a computer without having learned anything else, it's still fantastically successful. They know how to load a spreadsheet. They know basic UI paradigms that allow them to navigate crappy government or banking web pages. They come of age using social networks that they will be able to leverage for work and productive connections in the future. The issue of connectivity is related but ultimately a distraction too, as a single poor wi-fi or 3G connection is still good for watching low-quality Youtube videos or reading tutorials. It's a middle-of-the-road country with inadequate distribution of services. The resources devoted to this program can't be put to infrastructure. And imperfectly devised program where teachers can't use computers doesn't change the fact that computers are so damn useful that you don't depend on a teacher to learn how to use it, especially with naturally resourceful children.
- sdfin 5y ago
  I'm also from Argentina, and about 6 years ago I worked in a public school. I think giving computers to children is good only if the quality of education they receive is good. I saw many children using their government-given computers to play GTA san andreas and Counter Strike while they were in the middle of a class, and the teachers didn't do anything about it because the government forbids them to take reasonable disciplinary measures (A teacher wants a child to pay attention during a class? Good luck, there's not much he/she can do) and also the goverments forces the teachers to make everyone pass every exam because "it is stigmatizing" for the children to get a bad mark on a test. What I comment sounds absurd, but I have no reason to lie about it. So, even if I consider it can be benefical to give computers to students in some conditions, in Argentina it's not well implemented.
  - Daishiman 5y ago
    > I think giving computers to children is good only if the quality of education they receive is good. This is 100% false. A computer allows them to watch YouTube and see tutorials on everything they may want to learn. It _forces_ them to learn to how read and read quickly to digest all the information they get on social networks. It allows them to know that there are such things as spreadsheets and document editors. This is so much more important than many classes that it can't be understated how critical this is. If these children instead had to go to private computer literacy classes when they turn 21 because they need to write a CV or access a government website, they will have wasted away a ton of potential. All the children mentioned in the article did not have a good education, but they had a tool that enabled them to make do without it.
academonia 5y ago
The "one laptop per child" program put some thought into the connectivity problem. They actually designed their machines around the idea of distributing content via meshing and intermittent "sneakernet" deliveries. Sadly, the price/performance wasn't quite there in the mid-2000s, but it seemed like they had some good ideas: https://www.theverge.com/2018/4/16/17233946/olpcs-100-laptop-education-where-is-it-now https://www.theverge.com/2018/4/16/17233946/olpcs-100-laptop... Maybe the mesh networking could have worked better if it were used exclusively for distributing small files, like a P2P Whispernet.
- rijoja 5y ago
  At the moment though this would be way easier with a plethora of ARM boards that are both low cost and powerful. Also with star link there would be a way to solve spotty internet access in remote areas. What is needed I suppose is a way to integrate this with preexisting organisations in the area.
  - sumtechguy 5y ago
    I was working a project where the BOM was to be at most 50 bucks. It is kind of difficult to hit that number. Ironically while the board was cheap it was all the additions to make it a full computer that ended up ruining the idea. That was even before we add in any profit margin. Add in a screen, keyboard, mouse, power supply, and so on. It adds up quickly. What was a 15-20 dollar computer is now 70-80 or more plus paying someone to put it together.
    - kreelman 5y ago
      Could it be kept fairly close to $50 if it was simply a "box" with a few relatively high speed USB ports and an HDMI connector? I know this wouldn't be a "laptop", but with a cheap-ish monitor, keyboard and mouse... it's a small PC. Perhaps with a slightly older CPU which doesn't need super fast RAM, there could be... 2Gb of RAM or more? Of course the newer RaspberryPi boards are pretty close (and in terms of RAM, even better) to this....
duxup 5y ago
Budgeting for equipment is easy. In the US because of how funding works budgeting / getting one off grants / short term taxes for equipment is often one of the easier (relatively) things to do. Meanwhile maintenance, training go by the way side. Training humans is hard, that always is the hard part.
forgetfulness 5y ago
You are entirely right, even to the last point, but I think the first half of it needs some more support. The truth is that most of the average or privileged people in the developed and developing world won't do anything extraordinary with their computers either. If giving at least one tool to the disadvantaged, that others can pretty much take for granted, allows the few among them that would pursue their talents with it is already a step up from the status quo.
- eric__cartman 5y ago
  They absolutely will. And I'm sure many kids, when introduced to computers took full advantage of them. Learning new skills and being able to integrate themselves better into this digitally dependent world. These cases more than make up for the ones that only used their machines to play CS 1.6 The government announced that they will be reopening this program and begin distributing computers again. I really wish them the best of luck even with a global semiconductor shortage because, especially nowadays, those that don't have access to a computer get severely limited in their possibilities. I was only ranting about how this program could have been better implemented at the schools.
elondaits 5y ago
The idea behind OLPC was in fact that students would be able to gain a lot of insights on their own just by being in contact with their own computer… it was never a requirement that they had to be used effectively in the classroom. I’m from Argentina and saw kids using their computers while sitting in front of a house, hanging (like kids do) and thought that was beautiful. Also saw a girl using hers in the park while her father pushed her little sister in the swing. Those kind of images are inspiring and it’s a shame the program was cut.
- rijoja 5y ago
  Would you know if there are any efforts to create a similar effort?
  - dmix 5y ago
    Did you read the full article? They've already restarted the program. > Conectar Igualdad was supposed to end definitively in 2018, but the next year saw a new government come to power. The netbook program has since experienced a rebirth as a part of a bigger project. “Last year, we released the Juana Manso Federal Plan,” said Marés Serra, the general manager at Educ.ar. “And even though we do not have enough funds to cover every grade for now, we have returned to the model where the student owns the computer.” The lack of internet is a huge problem still, especially considering they call them netbook.
    - rijoja 5y ago
      Oh sorry I was a bit unclear I was referring to the OLPC program.
gfiorav 5y ago
I think it makes sense even if 1 out of 100 will find it to be a deal breaker in their education. The returns you can get from that 1% migth pay for the 99% waste.
audit 5y ago
You mention about lack of connectivity. I agree with you, that it is not just the device, but the good quality connectivity, that creates this 'jump' in availability of educational content / etc. Is the government making good concentrated efforts to get that solved ? Or is the broadband availability is mostly allotted to the efforts of private enterprises ?
rank0 5y ago
This is why internet needs to be treated as a utility
kristianp 5y ago
What's the mobile phone situation like for poor families? When I was in Myanmar a few years ago, the phone was the way to get internet access. No computer in the home but a smartphone was.
WalterBright 5y ago
Solutions that only involve spending someone else's money and don't involve doing any actual work are always going to be popular.
- Izikiel43 5y ago
  Welcome to the Argentinian government
nr2x 5y ago
I think a lot of comments here are seriously undervaluing the humanities and arts. These machines lead to the creation of some very popular music, allowed many more to find an outlet for personal expression and that's a huge success on its own, regardless of other formal learning outcomes.
dehrmann 5y ago
> this group of students effectively couldn't receive an education for the better almost a whole year I suspect most students who learned remotely got a lot less out of it. It'll be interesting to see what standardized tests show.

mughinn 5y ago

It was a good program that felt like it was made for one part of the country without thinking of the rest. I've heard stories of people in Jujuy receiving a computer that didn't have electricity at their house

Daishiman 5y ago
The amount of people who don't have access to electricity in Argentina is minuscule compared to the total number of children who are aided by computer literacy. This is just nitpicky.
- conanbatt 5y ago
  The amount of kids living below the poverty line is not a small one.
  - is_true 5y ago
    More than half. And now it got worse because lots of child used to eat once a day in school but schools are closed.
dep_b 5y ago
It's a netbook. It'll work a few hours after charging. Go to school -> charge -> return home and do your homework.

swiley 5y ago

The silly thing about the whole "no internet so can't distance learn" is that people have been doing correspondence schooling long before the internet was popular. The homeschooling community in the US has quite a few tools even for very hands-off parents and Australia has been doing it over the radio/mail for a long time. Blaming poor internet availability is just an excuse for failing to look at what's out there and adapt.

acituan 5y ago
I would say lack of home internet could even be an advantage. Because the moment new demographics go online en masse, big internet corporations start salivating. Without home internet no distractions, no dopamine hijacks, no content control issues, most importantly no imperative for parents to gain technological familiarity if they want to protect their kids. Kids could simply use school internet for research, download the relevant content, do the deep dive at home like they would do with any book from a library.
- Koshkin 5y ago
  I get what you are saying, but we have to learn to live meaningfully, with the internet being now an inalienable part of our lives.
  - Retric 5y ago
    Why? The Amish are the extreme example, but you can minimize or even cut out the internet from your life if you want to.
    - Mediterraneo10 5y ago
      In Europe, more and more banks have been slashing opening hours and the number of clerks at physical locations, or even closing locations outright, because customers are expected to do nearly everything through online banking. Many forms of interaction with the state require using their online portal, and even if you visit the government office, they may just show you how to do what you need through the online portal instead of helping you directly. Programs to assist people who do not have a phone and internet, now focus on giving those people a phone and internet; there simply isn’t willingness to make technology optional for that tiny demographic that eschews internet use. Yes, the Amish have managed in the USA so far, but I think that even those days are numbered. Just as many Amish already own mobile phones, though they limit their use and keep them stashed away most of the time, they will be forced to do online things, too.

pelasaco 5y ago

But where in the article is being stated that a computer would replace quality education? The article is just describing an unexpected artistic scene development.

zzzpaz 5y ago

> the sad truth is that many times cases like this are rare exceptions. Well, giving a computer to someone doesn't turn them into a Bill Gates or Steve Jobs just because they own it. Depends on the attitude of whom receive it. You could say that most of the people will use it for fun and you entertainment. On the other side there are people who will use to uplift themselves and that's something that has to be appreciated. The truth is that these young man, without a computer wouldn't be in this situation today. So even if is an exception is still good to see that.

rijoja 5y ago
Well I learned to program and how UNIX systems worked from having a computer and a library. Today you wouldn't really need the library if you have an internet connection.
- zzzpaz 5y ago
  What's the point? Indeed that's your attitude and is ok. At my age when I was in school the whole class had a computer (like 25 of us). Today of that class only 3 work using computer everyday. The second part of my comment explain that if you've the right attitude and interest then a computer can help you, if you don't is just another tool like your fridge
  - rijoja 5y ago
    Yeah but what's wrong with trying to provide as many tool as possible to people with the right attitude?
inigojonesguy 5y ago
>Well, giving a computer to someone doesn't turn them into a Bill Gates or Steve Jobs just because they own it. I read this comment, I read the article and can't stop thinking what if Zuck were among these kids them maybe we could admire him as a musical talent like L-GANTE (link from the article) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SacHyFb_j1o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SacHyFb_j1o
5y ago

Daishiman 5y ago

I'm from Argentina as well and I believe this attitude is exactly what's wrong when people critiqued this program. Yes, we _know_ it's not going to fix a flawed education system. There's not a person in this entire country who has ever believed otherwise, and using it as a critique of the program has been nothing but a strawman. We live a in a world where everything is done online. If the only objective this achieved is that kids are now familiar with a computer without having learned anything else, it's still fantastically successful. They know how to load a spreadsheet. They know basic UI paradigms that allow them to navigate crappy government or banking web pages. They come of age using social networks that they will be able to leverage for work and productive connections in the future. The issue of connectivity is related but ultimately a distraction too, as a single poor wi-fi or 3G connection is still good for watching low-quality Youtube videos or reading tutorials. It's a middle-of-the-road country with inadequate distribution of services. The resources devoted to this program can't be put to infrastructure. And imperfectly devised program where teachers can't use computers doesn't change the fact that computers are so damn useful that you don't depend on a teacher to learn how to use it, especially with naturally resourceful children.

sdfin 5y ago
I'm also from Argentina, and about 6 years ago I worked in a public school. I think giving computers to children is good only if the quality of education they receive is good. I saw many children using their government-given computers to play GTA san andreas and Counter Strike while they were in the middle of a class, and the teachers didn't do anything about it because the government forbids them to take reasonable disciplinary measures (A teacher wants a child to pay attention during a class? Good luck, there's not much he/she can do) and also the goverments forces the teachers to make everyone pass every exam because "it is stigmatizing" for the children to get a bad mark on a test. What I comment sounds absurd, but I have no reason to lie about it. So, even if I consider it can be benefical to give computers to students in some conditions, in Argentina it's not well implemented.
- Daishiman 5y ago
  > I think giving computers to children is good only if the quality of education they receive is good. This is 100% false. A computer allows them to watch YouTube and see tutorials on everything they may want to learn. It _forces_ them to learn to how read and read quickly to digest all the information they get on social networks. It allows them to know that there are such things as spreadsheets and document editors. This is so much more important than many classes that it can't be understated how critical this is. If these children instead had to go to private computer literacy classes when they turn 21 because they need to write a CV or access a government website, they will have wasted away a ton of potential. All the children mentioned in the article did not have a good education, but they had a tool that enabled them to make do without it.

academonia 5y ago

The "one laptop per child" program put some thought into the connectivity problem. They actually designed their machines around the idea of distributing content via meshing and intermittent "sneakernet" deliveries. Sadly, the price/performance wasn't quite there in the mid-2000s, but it seemed like they had some good ideas: https://www.theverge.com/2018/4/16/17233946/olpcs-100-laptop-education-where-is-it-now https://www.theverge.com/2018/4/16/17233946/olpcs-100-laptop... Maybe the mesh networking could have worked better if it were used exclusively for distributing small files, like a P2P Whispernet.

rijoja 5y ago
At the moment though this would be way easier with a plethora of ARM boards that are both low cost and powerful. Also with star link there would be a way to solve spotty internet access in remote areas. What is needed I suppose is a way to integrate this with preexisting organisations in the area.
- sumtechguy 5y ago
  I was working a project where the BOM was to be at most 50 bucks. It is kind of difficult to hit that number. Ironically while the board was cheap it was all the additions to make it a full computer that ended up ruining the idea. That was even before we add in any profit margin. Add in a screen, keyboard, mouse, power supply, and so on. It adds up quickly. What was a 15-20 dollar computer is now 70-80 or more plus paying someone to put it together.
  - kreelman 5y ago
    Could it be kept fairly close to $50 if it was simply a "box" with a few relatively high speed USB ports and an HDMI connector? I know this wouldn't be a "laptop", but with a cheap-ish monitor, keyboard and mouse... it's a small PC. Perhaps with a slightly older CPU which doesn't need super fast RAM, there could be... 2Gb of RAM or more? Of course the newer RaspberryPi boards are pretty close (and in terms of RAM, even better) to this....

duxup 5y ago

Budgeting for equipment is easy. In the US because of how funding works budgeting / getting one off grants / short term taxes for equipment is often one of the easier (relatively) things to do. Meanwhile maintenance, training go by the way side. Training humans is hard, that always is the hard part.

forgetfulness 5y ago

You are entirely right, even to the last point, but I think the first half of it needs some more support. The truth is that most of the average or privileged people in the developed and developing world won't do anything extraordinary with their computers either. If giving at least one tool to the disadvantaged, that others can pretty much take for granted, allows the few among them that would pursue their talents with it is already a step up from the status quo.

eric__cartman 5y ago
They absolutely will. And I'm sure many kids, when introduced to computers took full advantage of them. Learning new skills and being able to integrate themselves better into this digitally dependent world. These cases more than make up for the ones that only used their machines to play CS 1.6 The government announced that they will be reopening this program and begin distributing computers again. I really wish them the best of luck even with a global semiconductor shortage because, especially nowadays, those that don't have access to a computer get severely limited in their possibilities. I was only ranting about how this program could have been better implemented at the schools.

elondaits 5y ago

The idea behind OLPC was in fact that students would be able to gain a lot of insights on their own just by being in contact with their own computer… it was never a requirement that they had to be used effectively in the classroom. I’m from Argentina and saw kids using their computers while sitting in front of a house, hanging (like kids do) and thought that was beautiful. Also saw a girl using hers in the park while her father pushed her little sister in the swing. Those kind of images are inspiring and it’s a shame the program was cut.

rijoja 5y ago
Would you know if there are any efforts to create a similar effort?
- dmix 5y ago
  Did you read the full article? They've already restarted the program. > Conectar Igualdad was supposed to end definitively in 2018, but the next year saw a new government come to power. The netbook program has since experienced a rebirth as a part of a bigger project. “Last year, we released the Juana Manso Federal Plan,” said Marés Serra, the general manager at Educ.ar. “And even though we do not have enough funds to cover every grade for now, we have returned to the model where the student owns the computer.” The lack of internet is a huge problem still, especially considering they call them netbook.
  - rijoja 5y ago
    Oh sorry I was a bit unclear I was referring to the OLPC program.

gfiorav 5y ago

I think it makes sense even if 1 out of 100 will find it to be a deal breaker in their education. The returns you can get from that 1% migth pay for the 99% waste.

audit 5y ago

You mention about lack of connectivity. I agree with you, that it is not just the device, but the good quality connectivity, that creates this 'jump' in availability of educational content / etc. Is the government making good concentrated efforts to get that solved ? Or is the broadband availability is mostly allotted to the efforts of private enterprises ?

rank0 5y ago

This is why internet needs to be treated as a utility

kristianp 5y ago

What's the mobile phone situation like for poor families? When I was in Myanmar a few years ago, the phone was the way to get internet access. No computer in the home but a smartphone was.

WalterBright 5y ago

Solutions that only involve spending someone else's money and don't involve doing any actual work are always going to be popular.

Izikiel43 5y ago
Welcome to the Argentinian government

nr2x 5y ago

I think a lot of comments here are seriously undervaluing the humanities and arts. These machines lead to the creation of some very popular music, allowed many more to find an outlet for personal expression and that's a huge success on its own, regardless of other formal learning outcomes.

dehrmann 5y ago

> this group of students effectively couldn't receive an education for the better almost a whole year I suspect most students who learned remotely got a lot less out of it. It'll be interesting to see what standardized tests show.