12 ms·
Saudi Arabia executes Mustafa al-Darwish for teenage protests
- underseacables 5y agoLike China, there is really nothing… Dissuading murderous governments like Saudi Arabia from changing their ways. They can execute children, they can harvest organs, in prison huge numbers of religious minorities, and really there’s absolutely nothing any of us can do about it. Short of war, there’s absolutely nothing that can be done.
- scientist9113 5y agoThat's not true at all. We buy and use their oil, we supply them weapons etc. All that we need to do is to make sure that it's clear to our politician that such things matter to Americans. I'm just not sure that's the case though.
- underseacables 5y agoYou make an excellent point: What WOULD happen if we stopped buying oil from Saudi Arabia, and slapped an 80% tariff on all Chinese made goods? Would these regimes change their ways, or begin a major pivot away from America? I’ve always been fascinated by the friendship between China and the Middle East. No pesky human rights to worry about, just the flow of oil and money is opposite directions.
- gerash 5y agoAre you implying that US worries about human rights when Saudi Arabia is the ally?
- awb 5y agoThere are countless ways for those countries to retaliate: war, terrorism, cyber attacks, disinformation campaigns, corporate or political espionage, releasing state secrets, stoking geopolitical tensions, creating anti-US coalitions, etc. Not saying that punitive actions can’t be effective, but the US is still vulnerable to some forms of retaliation, especially if get initial action is as sudden and dramatic as the ones you describe.
- baybal2 5y ago> war, terrorism, cyber attacks, disinformation campaigns, corporate or political espionage, releasing state secrets, stoking geopolitical tensions, creating anti-US coalitions, etc. You just listed every thing what The New Axis has done in the previous decade.
- peytn 5y agoSaudi oil: nothing would happen. It’s a commodity. They’d sell their oil at market price minus epsilon. Regime would be fine. China tariff: they’d devalue the yuan. They already have capital controls that keep money from leaving the country. Regime would be fine. At the end of the day, might as well trade with them for our own benefit.
- nyokodo 5y ago> Would these regimes change their ways, or begin a major pivot away from America? Pivot to whom? China needs a large population of consumers. Besides the US they have their choice of countries full of young poor people, countries full of thrifty old people, and countries with consumers that are too small. They could drop the US if they’re willing to have a massive financial contraction. The US holds the ultimate trump card too, we need them less and less, and we can remove all shipping security guarantees for Chinese goods and watch their international trade collapse. It’s hard to fund influence campaigns when your economic house of cards crumbles around you.
- monocasa 5y agoThe China envisioned in Made in China 2025 already has access to a large population of consumers: the Chinese population. And the whole point of the Belt and Road initiative and their aircraft carrier program is to remove dependence on the US backed shipping security apparatus.
- nyokodo 5y ago> The China envisioned in Made in China 2025 already has access to a large population of consumers: the Chinese population. Not for long. The Chinese population is aging incredibly rapidly. Younger Chinese who could contribute to a stable consumer base will instead be crushed attempting to support the accelerating number in older generations retiring.
- monocasa 5y agoOlder Chinese are still consumers, they'll bog down younger Chinese no more than US consumers will. It's not like US consumers are providing anything other than capital and a market as it stands. And a transition to higher end products and associated manufacturing means less low end workers (and less workers overall) needed to make that happen.
- nyokodo 5y ago
- hulitu 5y agoYou no underestand. They are our friends.
- corty 5y agoWon't work, Afghanistan has no (legal) exports to speak of, and still there is the taliban gaining power. Iran and North Korea are hindered by very strict sanctions, yet their governments aren't any better. War might work, if at least some larger part of the population wants change, like in Iraq. Sanctions didn't ever work.
- farseer 5y agoSanctions on Iraq did work, Saddam was contained. Might even have been swept away in the Arab spring later on. Unfortunately a bunch of religious fanatics invaded Iraq using a false pretense because God wanted them to. These fanatics didn't believe in diplomacy. After overthrowing the Taliban and the Baathists, they spurned all hopes of a negotiated peace and tried to wipe their foes off the map and remake the region in their own image. The defeated Baathist army was dismantled, the Taliban remnants hunted instead of negotiated with. Even the spurned Iraninans would have de-denuclearized out of fear in 2003 but why settle for that when you can have it all with regime change? And now here we are debating the evil of these once vanquished foes...
- corty 5y agoSaddam Hussein was contained regarding neighboring states. As to atrocities towards the Iraqi people, sanctions and loosing the wars just put those into full gear, because Hussein had to quell the brewing rebellion. So you are right, sanctions may work in preventing a war. But they do nothing beneficial for the internal workings of a country, like executing teens for protesting in the OP.
- starik36 5y ago> We buy and use their oil We actually buy a very small amount these days. US is a net exporter. https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=MCRIMUSSA2&f=M https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=M...
- sschueller 5y agoIt's not about the oil being purchased by the US but that most oil is traded in USD and not some other currency.
- nl 5y agoThat seems an entirely different thing. Most international trade is denominated in USD, often even when trade is between two non-US companies.
- nyokodo 5y ago> We buy and use their oil Although that is true, the US imports less and less oil from Saudi. In fact, it’s been dropping steeply since shale oil became cheaper in 2014 and we haven’t imported less from Saudi since the oil glut of the mid-1980s.[1] I don’t think the US stopping Saudi oil imports is going to worry them as China is their major market now and China is another repressive regime. We should stop protecting their shipping though as we do for the entire globe still. 1: https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=MCRIMUSSA2&f=M https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=M...
- adaml_623 5y agoHow much oil does the US buy from Iran? I think actual embargoes make a difference.
- nyokodo 5y ago> How much oil does the US buy from Iran? I think actual embargoes make a difference. Iran is still a brutal repressive regime. Sanctions make it more difficult for Iran to gain and project power but don’t stop them from committing horrific crimes against minorities and generally innocent Iranians.
- srean 5y ago> Iran is still a brutal repressive regime Whatever it is now, it has been brought in to existence by US (CIA) intervention
- mc32 5y agoI think that’s simplistic. The CIA (not saying they did stand up things) tried the opposite and supported a failing regime that was more open but did little for the lower classes so the revolutionaries came in took over and showed the previous regime how to really be tyrannical. Most Iranians would depose the current leadership if they had free elections, so it’s not as if the population wants them, but like China, and North Korea only one party can have legitimate candidates and they have the guns.
- setum 5y ago> in prison huge numbers of 𝚛̶𝚎̶𝚕̶𝚒̶𝚐̶𝚒̶𝚘̶𝚞̶𝚜̶ minorities this reminds me of another country, takes pride in its democracy, where citizens love marijuana, government don’t. different places, different basis for prosecution.
- ohlookabird 5y agoindeed, and it looks like neither thinks having a death penalty is somehow problematic...
- ReptileMan 5y agoWe don't have exile, no penal colonies, no ostracism, no corporal punishment and life term prison sentences are at least as cruel and more expensive than execution. Unfortunately there are no cheap and efficient options for removing someone permanently from society right now outside of death penalty. Outlawing people may work, but for various reasons it is non starter. You cannot lift protection from the law nowadays from someone.
- Ekaros 5y agoAlso reminds me of certain country that indiscriminately murders innocent non-citizens around the world... Truly different places, different justifications...
- ajmurmann 5y agoIn addition to what others called out, we could also open our borders and allow people from these places to come and live with us instead. Foot voting is very powerful and even if just a small percentage leaves these countries that can become a real problem for those governments and create pressure to change.
- vl 5y agoProbably millions left Russia after Iron Curtain fell and nothing really changed there.
- baybal2 5y ago> Short of war, there’s absolutely nothing that can be done. Embargo them to the neck, like Japan before WW2.
- bumbada 5y agoGiven the fact that Saudi Arabia is an US' puppet regime, they(the US) could do everything they want with it. If you go to Saudi Arabia you will see that Arabia is made of hundreds of different loosely integrated ethnic groups, Saudis are just one of them that took the power in the country. Removing the Saudis from power is extremely simple, they can just support other ethnic groups. The problem is that you never know if what is created is much worse than what it is there today, just like what happened in Egypt choosing the Muslim Brotherhood or in Libya, unstabilizing all the north of Africa. China is a totally different thing. China is a gigantic country, almost a continent with more than 1200 million people, a big army,powerful industry, natural defenses and ethnically dominated by Han people.
- nyokodo 5y ago> natural defenses Not really. While China improved its “natural defenses” by very unnaturally invading and subjugating Tibet it is still ringed by hostile countries or, in the case of Russia and North Korea, highly temperamental countries with very few natural barriers apart from the Himalayas which only covers one side. This is the reason the Great Wall was built.
- Gibbon1 5y ago> Saudi Arabia is an US' puppet regime The opposite is true here.
- HappyDreamer 5y ago> Short of war, there’s absolutely nothing that can be done Here are some things that can be done: - Stop exporting weapons and military and police equipment. - Support women and them starting their own businesses, so they'll make money and get more influence in society. Women are, when looking at large numbers of people, more often altruistic minded (compared to men) and less likely to be psychopaths. - Education, provide for free over the Internet. - Support pro democracy organizations. But I guess one would need to be careful, if doing this, so people won't just start protesting on the street and get shot down, for example see in Iran recently (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-iran-gasoline-protests-idUSKBN1XT0X7 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-iran-gasoline-protests-id...).
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- elevenoh 5y agoBenevolent AI-guided Saudi populous uprising.
- BLanen 5y agoHackernews, so of course China has to be brought up.
- LightG 5y agoHorrible governments who do horrible things, so of course China has to be brought up.
- bagacrap 5y agoThe USA has no problem applying non violent pressure to Russia and Iran to change their ways. Saudi Arabia just gets a free pass because their collaboration is important to America's strategic interests.
- freddealmeida 5y agoI don't think it would change but free countries should break off diplomatic relations with SA based on these kind of political killings. But then the US does it. And now Canada is playing with arresting political dissidents. Maybe the world is just going through the next iteration. Rome burned. America will burn too. But maybe the next iteration will be better.
- aaron695 5y agoThe USA has the death penalty for children, so lets jump off the high horse on that one. Mustafa al-Darwish also was older than 18 for part of it (And one assumes the terrorism charge would have been later in the timeline) which fits with SA saying they no long execute children, which would make them better than the USA on that issue.
- dandare 5y agoAs you can see by the number of downvotes, sometimes reason is unwelcome even on HN.
- aszen 5y agoThe problem with this comment is that it fails to account for the fact that US and other democratic countries have a reasonable judicial system that while flawed is not totally under the thumb of the government. One can be sure that a death sentence in western courts is atleast well debated and pondered over, the same unfortunately can't be said of middle East, where just writing bad about a ruler can get u chopped to pieces.
- slipframe 5y agoUh, I think he got downvoted for being wrong, not for being reasonable. The US used to execute people who were minors when they committed their offense, but no longer does. It was abolished by the Supreme Court in 2005, and the last time it happened was in 2003 (the execution of a 32 year old man who, when he was 17, deliberately burned two people to death.) So his information is almost two decades out of date. The 2005 SCOTUS decision abolishing it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roper_v._Simmons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roper_v._Simmons
- jumelles 5y agoIt's whataboutism, not "reason".
- beprogrammed 5y agoAll death penalties are not equal. When was the last time the USA killed a child for a photo they didn't like? If you were to be a child and got killed in the US, you surely deserved it. If you were a child and got killed in Saud, you probably just pissed off some little fascist.
- adminscoffee 5y agoanother reason for me to go renewable. downvote me but i can't justify paying a country for their oil when they do this type of humanitarian violations to a child. same reason i refuse to buy apple and nike. i can do without until others realize that if they don't play fairly they don't get to play at all, at least without my money.
- ganzuul 5y agoIs this news outlet reputable? I want to make sure this is factual before sharing.
- lorlou 5y agoFrom what I gather, even though some of the offences were committed by him when he was a minor, some of them weren't. So it's not like they are applying "death penalty for children" as the article claims.
- throwawaybutwhy 5y agoWell, don't keep us hanging. Please explain what the offences were.
- dsign 5y agoIf anybody knows the crimes Mustafa was accused of, that would be interesting. I did a search but I couldn't find any details. From the article, it seems they were "thought crimes". Something of some religious significance perhaps?
- erikpukinskis 5y agoArticle says it was for a photo on his phone. My guess is gay stuff.
- smellythief 5y agoIs it more politically plalatable for them to execute someone for protests rather than homosexuality? What was he supposedly protesting?
- Clewza313 5y agoSome context: Mustafa was charged with participating in the Arab Spring uprisings during 2011-2012, where the discriminated Shia minority rose up again the government. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011%E2%80%932012_Saudi_Arabian_protests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011%E2%80%932012_Saudi_Arabia...
- LatteLazy 5y agoWeren't they all peaceful protests? Eg sit-ins, demonstrations, marches etc? There wasn't really any "uprising" in terms of armed people actually trying to overthrow the government was there? Sorry if I'm taking uprising too literally...
- hardwaresofton 5y agoDeutsche Welle, the german public broadcaster has a bunch of fantastic videos on this if you're interested: Egyptian Women and the Arab Spring 1/2 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbCSYJDeoCI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbCSYJDeoCI) Egyptian Women and the Arab Spring 2/2 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dfbW8FfHbQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dfbW8FfHbQ) Ten years after the Arab Spring, is there still hope for democracy? 1/2 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIhDQ6YVOvQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIhDQ6YVOvQ) Ten years after the Arab Spring, is there still hope for democracy? 2/2 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxN7FCNOD4I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxN7FCNOD4I)
- Clewza313 5y agoNot entirely, there were violent riots and at least one policeman died as well. It's unclear if Mustafa was actually involved though.
- i_have_suffered 5y agoI got some flack giving a presentation that mentioned civilian participation in my organisations business by Chinese companies. The US Admiral that I was talking to (the topic was innovation - so no secrets) railed about us collaborating with entities that were alien to our core values. I could not reply - without unemployment - but all the time I thought about US support for Saudi - where the Admiral undoubtedly had served, and what kind of core values does that demonstrate?
- elmo2you 5y agoI do sympathize with how it must have felt during that presentation, but I do wonder why anyone would take the words of any high ranking US military official serious at all, at anything they say. After all, they are just representatives of an ideologically warped criminal enterprise, perpetually serving the interests of a questionable industry that rose to prominence during WW1 and WW2. War is a racket and so is the industry that feeds on the perceived threat of one. The humongous US military budget ends up (at least a substantial of it) in private pockets somehow. The US is of course not the only country playing that racket, but it certainly is the undisputed biggest player. Speaking truth to principles and morals is simply out of the question for anyone involved, with that amount of capital changing hands.
- mi3law 5y agoTo answer your specific comparison, I would say the values associated with capitalism.
- saiya-jin 5y agoYeah, there are very few countries so far/further from core western values than Saudi Arabia. Which isn't outlandish considering how diverse world is, but the very strong and friendly relationships and military support from US is frikkin' crazy and amoral. The country is run by psychopath cutting journalists to pieces at foreign embassies. I mean we're talking about the same level of primitive evil as some African dictators that ended with pretty harsh sentences at International Court of Justice. And Trump basically pardoned the guy in the media from what I recall. I am curious if Biden's administration will change the US approach to him/SA or they keep quiet for enjoying their military bases there.
- lordnacho 5y agoExecuting a kid for protests that didn't get anywhere is an indicator of fragility. Do they really think it sends a signal of strength to go through with this? This makes it seem like when there's a proper insurrection organized by adults it will have a real chance of toppling the regime.
- cblconfederate 5y agoSA does not need accountability
- nezirus 5y agoSuch a tragedy, to execute a teenager for such "crimes". It makes me sad, and angry... Not only they kill children in Yemen, but also their own citizens. What can we do about this, maybe not much, these tyrants are supported by their friends in the West, but we can surely try. Pressure politicians to stop supporting them, selling them weapons, allowing their dirty money into the financial system. Maybe even smaller steps could make an impact, like what if Muslims stop going to Hajj as long as these monsters are in powers. They earn big money from that.
- l33tbro 5y agoAnd good old Uncle Sam sells 10 billion a year in weapons to these pricks - along with billions in aid for Israel to "mow the grass" (IDF phrase) in Gaza. Disgraceful. https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2021/02/04/its-time-to-stop-us-arms-sales-to-saudi-arabia/ https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2021/02/04/i... https://besacenter.org/mowing-grass-gaza/ https://besacenter.org/mowing-grass-gaza/
- lucasnortj 5y agoGrow up. There is no moral equivalence between. Israel and Saudi Arabia. The genocidal rhetoric against Jews in the Muslim world is insane
- mikevm 5y agoOh, please. Hamas would kill every man woman and child in Israel without batting an eye if it had the means to do so (heck, so would the PLO). And they actually say it explicitly in their media, something western media rarely covers. https://fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/880818a.htm https://fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/880818a.htm > 'The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him.' And yet you bring up "mowing the lawn", which is an unfortunate reality in which Israel has to sacrifice soldiers every few years in order to keep fighting this genocidal organization which does not respect the lives of its own, uses them as human shields and is happy when the Arab death count is high because it just brings negative coverage on Israel. P.S. I can already see the downvotes coming, which I'm pretty sure are from people who don't live here and have no clue. I guess reading a Noam Chomsky book makes everyone an expert nowdays.
- tinus_hn 5y agoWhatever your cause, two wrongs will never make a right.
- irrational 5y agoThat does tend to be what happens when your back is against a wall while another party tries to exterminate you.
- antman 5y agoOn the positive side they did not get him off a plane and beat him, that would be a matter of outcry from country leaders all over the world.
- yeahforsureman 5y agoI see the hypocrisy. But you didn't mean to downplay the the very real human rights violations of the Belarusian regime, right?
- juanani 5y agoI see the hypocrisy, but you didn't mean to downplay the very real murder that just happened to a journalist by one of 'our guys'? Or is beating up a journalist worse than mursering him these days? I guess it depends on which side you seem to be standing on. Nice try
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- rStar 5y agosaudi arabia can do whatever they want because of the petrodollar. i’m surprised they don’t take advantage of that more often thsn they do.
- NmAmDa 5y agoA normal behavior for a US ally in the middle east.
- dandare 5y agoWhen I hear Saudi Arabia I always remember William Sampson, a Canadian citizen who was arrested while working in SA and tortured so badly he lost his mind for a time. Needless to say he confessed to everything countless times. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNM-zZgNSM8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNM-zZgNSM8 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Sampson_(author) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Sampson_(author)
- elevenoh 5y agoJesus. What an appalling nightmare, I can't image what William went through. Thanks for sharing.
- sascha_sl 5y agoNot defending the Saudis here (I'm illegal in their country), but the US does those things too, except you don't even have to touch US soil. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khalid_El-Masri https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khalid_El-Masri
- dandare 5y agoa) That is technically true and it makes me super angry that US in a way normalised torture. b) While it is technically true, I assume the prevalence is orders of magnitude smaller. Still, cases like Abu Zubaydah are extremely disturbing.
- waynesonfire 5y agoPutin speaks a lot of this and we call it "what-about-ism"
- sascha_sl 5y agoNobody was even talking about Russia, something has gone seriously wrong if you preemptively have to defend torture in paranoid expectation of downplaying other torture.
- 5y ago
- batushka3 5y agotypo in the title, should be Saudi Barbaria
- smellythief 5y agoAnyone know details about the photo?